Re: [Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ricardio
Hierarch is seriously a playable card in bug midrange?
No jtms mb? 8 mana dorks and no real pay off?
This is ported over from my Bant stoneblade deck. Most shardless players will tell you that games with deathrite and without are hugely different. Noble fills a similar role, and the fact that it can always generate mana is very powerful. Yes it really is playable, and the jump of 3 drop on T2 is enough payoff. With both noble and Deathrite in hand, noble is normally the better early game play. That they have other value later is a bonus.
JTMS is a card I do like main, but I have mostly wanted it against miracles and other midrange decks. The jittes and jaces were originally swapped, but I have been facing lots of delver, eldrazi, D&T and shardless, so in that environment I like this arrangement. (Yes I bring the Jaces in against shardless but jittes are also strong there).
Re: [Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)
Just want to chime in and say that I've been on Bant for a little while now and have started experimenting with Hierarch in BUG too. I posted about it a little bit in the Shardless thread but I didn't get a great response and the thread isn't the most active, but I'd advise against passing off the card too fast. With Leovold, three drops have become ridiculously powerful and the payoff is there without even delving into 4cmc PWers imo. Thanks for starting a discussion up on this limob, I'm going to keep trying out different builds, but DRS + Hierarch + Leo will be a package in all of them. This Elf Advisor is the real deal.
Re: [Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)
My big question here is how is the Eldrazi matchup? When I was playing Stoneblade variants recently I thought that the biggest problem with that matchup was how difficult it was to stabilize without Batterskull, especially if they had an early Chalice. TNN obviously puts in work here, but he isn't eating Eldrazi the way Goyf or Angler can, nor are you able to leverage the lifelink on Batterskull. Is the plan just to go on the Wasteland/TNN offensive and counter anything that threatens a race? Legitimately curious.
Re: [Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
btm10
My big question here is how is the Eldrazi matchup? When I was playing Stoneblade variants recently I thought that the biggest problem with that matchup was how difficult it was to stabilize without Batterskull, especially if they had an early Chalice. TNN obviously puts in work here, but he isn't eating Eldrazi the way Goyf or Angler can, nor are you able to leverage the lifelink on Batterskull. Is the plan just to go on the Wasteland/TNN offensive and counter anything that threatens a race? Legitimately curious.
I have had good results thus far against Eldrazi but only play a few matches thus far (4-2). The jitte in the main, instead of the jace, and the dismember are a concession to sure up Eldrazi and delver matchups. Smasher is the biggest problem, and what I save my forces for. The ramp allows us to keep up well, and decays give us reasonable outs to chalice and early creatures. 4 wastelands and some dazes are all outstanding with that matchup. I am very comfortable with this build against aggressive decks of all strips. What I want to do now is run more matches against miracles and combo to make sure I haven't swung too far into the anti-aggro realm. For example, it is possible that the dismember should be another daze or a thoughtseize, and that the board should have 2 duress.
Re: [Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)
That all seems reasonable. The only big change I'd argue for if you want to improve your Miracles matchup is considering a couple of copies of actual factual Counterspell in the main. I played the Miracles matchup a bunch with TNN BUG in 2014 (my lists are probably about 15-20 pages back if you want to see them) and it seemed quite good. I can't imagine Leovold making it any harder.
Re: [Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)
After reading about people's success with Hierarch in BUG decks in this thread, I took this brew to a 6-rounder yesterday and finished 3-3. Two of my losses were very close (and one felt hopeless), so it could've easily been a 4-2 or, with some better variance, 5-1 day. So although the record was disappointing, I'm optimistic about the archetype. I wanted to post the list and get feedback.
Here's what I registered:
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Noble Hierarch
2 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library
2 Thoughtseize
1 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
// sideboard //
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Containment Priest
1 Pithing Needle
2 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Duress
1 Disenchant
1 Dread of Night
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Garruk Relentless
I mulled to five twice and to four once (losing all those games), and I had only one T1 mana dork --> T2 3-drop start. Maybe the deck performed below its capabilities then.
Round 1: Maverick
My opponent was an accomplished player, so I knew this would be a tough one. Mulling to Hierarch + four lands in game 1 certainly didn't help. And in game 2 perhaps I should've been more judicious with my two Decays. I burned one on a Deathrite when he had Plains + Bayou and then Wasted the Bayou, hoping to get him. He followed up with two Moms, a Pridemage and a Jitte. GG.
Round 2: Eldrazi
This was a nailbiter and could've gone either way. Game 1 mull to 5 again, and I couldn't stabilize. Game 2 Leovold drew me at least five cards after being targeted by two Thought-Knot Seers and his Oblivion Sowers. I think he Warping Wailed a dude, too. And I got to Clique in draw step, taking his Jitte and preventing him from drawing a replacement card. I won that game. But in game 3, a Mimic did about 10 damage to me after I dealt with a Seer, Sower, and Smasher. I thought I had stabilized, but a crucial Warping Wail on my Hierarch kept me off the five mana I needed to execute my game-winning plan. I couldn't deploy my threats and equip Jitte in the same turn. He ended the game with no cards in hand, and I had I think three that would've been on the battlefield had I had one more mana. Close one.
Round 3: Bant
Leovold shut off his Brainstorms for a long time and drew me a couple cards. His resolved True-Name didn't end up mattering, as I had all the tempo. Game 2 I somehow beat an active Jitte and Jace by topdecking my own Jitte and connecting with a creature to kill his one-toughness dudes. He couldn't find more threats, and I got the match.
Round 4: Grixis Delver
Leovold was the all-star again, negating my opponent's topdecked Probe and Brainstorm after he Therapied away two of my True-Names - ouch. Equipping Jitte sealed the win. Game 2 I ended up Swordsing his two Deathrites to allow my own to function. I tried to cut him off red by double Wastelanding his Volcanics and then Surgicaling in response to a fetchland; turns out he ran a Badlands. But eventually I found a Wasteland for that one, too. He had a True-Name idling in hand because he knew I held a Zealous Persecution, giving me enough time to Brainstorm into a Hierarch and a Snapcaster to Swords his Angler.
Round 5: RUG Delver
Game 1 I Swordsed his Delver and Wastelanded his only Island. Game 2 came down to a crucial turn, which I probably misplayed. He had a Goyf and True-Name in play. I had four lands, an active Deathrite, and Leovold on the table with a Zealous Persecution, Decay, and Flusterstorm in hand. I Decayed the Goyf to get cheeky with Leovold while his True-Name was tapped. I opted to save my Zealous for his turn, in case he played another one-toughness creature. He attacked with True-Name, I took it, then he deployed a Delver, leaving him with three cards in hand. End of turn, I Zealoused, he cast a Counterspell, I Flusterstormed, and then got blown out by Daze on Zealous. My line was super greedy, but I figured he couldn't Brainstorm into countermagic and could beat one spell with my Flusterstorm. Not playing around Daze there lost me the game, but I don't know if it was correct to do so or not. Game 3 I got both my Leovolds countered despite having counter backup each time, then got triple Wastelanded and my mana dorks destroyed. Tough match, but I thought it was winnable, especially game 2.
Game 6: RB Reanimator
Game 1 I mulled to four and got wrecked. Game 2 I Surgicaled his T1 discarded Chancellor. Then he got a Griselbrand into the graveyard and went for an Exhume with two lands and a fetchland. I Wastelanded the fetch in response, then in response to the fetchland, I Dazed. I could've Surgicaled right then, but I didn't want him to Entomb in response or something. I had all the answers and two active Deathrites after that. Game 3 I just had everything, and he couldn't resolve a threat. I stripped him of two Sneak Attacks, to boot.
Overall the deck did some cool things. Leovold was incredible all day except against BR Reanimator, where 3-drop threats don't really work if they're not Clique. I feel like I won in spite of having Hierarch in my deck, though. Small sample size, but he only got me a T2 True-Name once, which got Forced. I did have T1 mana dork twice against RUG Delver, and in game 1 it got immediately Bolted. But overall, I don't think it was instrumental in any of my wins. It certainly helped pressure Jace when my only threat was a Strix, so there's that. One of the dual lands could most likely become a fetchland - not sure whether to play 3 Seas + Savannah or 3 Trops + Scrubland - but I liked how many land drops the deck made, especially with Snapcaster in the deck (which was great all day). I even Snapped back a Daze on a True-Name against Bant. Perhaps I'd play a hard Counterspell over one of the soft permission spells - probably the third Daze. The deck most likely needs refining, but for a first effort, I was encouraged. I'd probably go down to two Hierarchs and play something else in that slot. If a couple cards fell another way, I might've had a much better day.
Curious about your feedback. Thanks for reading!
Re: [Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
theMonster
Overall the deck did some cool things. Leovold was incredible all day except against BR Reanimator, where 3-drop threats don't really work if they're not Clique. I feel like I won in spite of having Hierarch in my deck, though. Small sample size, but he only got me a T2 True-Name once, which got Forced. I did have T1 mana dork twice against RUG Delver, and in game 1 it got immediately Bolted. But overall, I don't think it was instrumental in any of my wins. It certainly helped pressure Jace when my only threat was a Strix, so there's that. One of the dual lands could most likely become a fetchland - not sure whether to play 3 Seas + Savannah or 3 Trops + Scrubland - but I liked how many land drops the deck made, especially with Snapcaster in the deck (which was great all day). I even Snapped back a Daze on a True-Name against Bant. Perhaps I'd play a hard Counterspell over one of the soft permission spells - probably the third Daze. The deck most likely needs refining, but for a first effort, I was encouraged. I'd probably go down to two Hierarchs and play something else in that slot. If a couple cards fell another way, I might've had a much better day.
Curious about your feedback. Thanks for reading!
This is going to sound like the pot calling the kettle black, since I have played 4c Bant for most of the past year and done well at a few classics with it, but I think at this point the white splash is probably an unnecessary reach. Leovold is a very good card, but he is much worse when you are behind and he is much worse when you have to strain your manabase to play him, which is why I cut him from my Bant deck. I ran into games where one wasteland from the opponent would make me have to choose between casting my white spells or my Leovold. The fourth color will on occasion make it so Leo comes down a turn later, and this can dramatically reduce his effectiveness.
I could see running a white dual and some white cards in your board, much the way shardless did for a time to play meddling mage, but I think you are asking for trouble going straight 4c like this. Especially since you don't have mystic and equipment to dig you out of an early hole.
Edit: it should be noted that I am turning away from the 4c Bant almost exclusively because the mana is a weak stop, despite 7-8 dorks. Turning to BUG but keeping the dorks is an attempt to keep the mana advantage while stabilizing a real weakness.
Re: [Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)
Updated my list a bit to be less all-in-delver-hateful. This version is much stronger against Miracles, largely because the G1 percentage is much better. Added the 20th land, basic forest, to make land drops a bit more consistent and give the additional coverage against opponent land hate. Ran a bunch of test games against Miracles, Esper Mentor, and Lands yesterday. Positive results on all of them. Lands is a very close matchup (missing the StP from Bant) but winnable and that deck is trending down slightly. Board still isn't right but closing in on proper numbers.
Main Deck
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Noble Hierarch
2 Baleful Strix
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3 True-Name Nemesis
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
1 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
1 Sylvan Library
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
Sideboard
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Hyrdoblast
1 Disfigure
1 Marsh Casualties
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Krosan Grip
1 Garruk Relentless
Re: [Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
limbo
Hi,
how happy were you with the 2 Leovold in the MD? I'm also thinking about him in my BUG Midrange (Only 4 Shaman version). I'm not 100% sold on them just because they're mediocre in the lategame & just ok in the midgame I think. Tinkering about the 3rd or maybe even the 4th TNN instead (I play 2 Jitte MD).
I'm also not sure if I want to keep 3-4 Tarmogoyf, they're great to pressure the oponent (important vs any combo deck) and strong vs Eldrazi but more TNN's are just way better vs Miracles or DnT. How are your experiences with BUG Midrange?
Re: [Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Manipulato
Hi,
how happy were you with the 2 Leovold in the MD? I'm also thinking about him in my BUG Midrange (Only 4 Shaman version). I'm not 100% sold on them just because they're mediocre in the lategame & just ok in the midgame I think. Tinkering about the 3rd or maybe even the 4th TNN instead (I play 2 Jitte MD).
I'm also not sure if I want to keep 3-4 Tarmogoyf, they're great to pressure the oponent (important vs any combo deck) and strong vs Eldrazi but more TNN's are just way better vs Miracles or DnT. How are your experiences with BUG Midrange?
I am happy with Leo as a 2 of. It is very strong early, part of why I like 7 dorks. You are absolutely right, it loses a lot of value late or when you fall behind. His draw clause plays well against miracles, delver, and combo and his target clause is good against a variety of decks. He is pretty poor against Eldrazi as some versions only have dismembers and jittes that target but against versions with wasteland, removal spells, warping wail, and Endbringer he is fine. The ability to chump, trade, and carry a jitte means I normally keep 1 in post board regardless of what I saw from eldrazi game 1. He is excellent against most combo decks. If you worry about your combo matchups, consider adding (more of) him. Both abilities tend to be relevant and the body is big enough. He is at his worst against BR reanimator, but they still have looting, ColBru, and discard spells that are relevant points of interaction for him, as well as his (not so) secret mode of being a blue card for force. Turning off opposing glimpse, cantrips, on-turn card cycling, on-turn divining top flips often demands a removal spell from your combo opponent, which draws you more chances at disruption.
I think good, fast mana and the ability to play spells is critical to competative magic, and I think a lot of legacy players get too greedy with their mana bases. I play the dorks rather than other threats like delver or goyf, to allow me to play spells more aggressively and consistently (plus they are threats and buffs in a pinch). This preference may largely be a relic of my times playing 4c decks. I like that the dorks allow me to play 4 wastelands and use them aggressively, and play dazes, buying back a lot of the tempo that a more aggressive creature version of BUG might attempt to gain, while having a lower chance of being disrupted by my opponent.
General experience with the deck: Like deathblade decks, it has game against everything, but few overwhelmingly good matchups. There is a plethora of disruption available to you and your opponent rarely has a good idea of what to play around. Like deathblade, I think most matchups get better post board. My build from the previous page was nearly unbeatable for delver in G1 and even better G2, it was however weaker to Miracles. This version of the deck is a compromise. Delver G1 is pretty close now, but favored postboard. I like 7 dorks vs delver as it makes it much harder for them to cut us off of critical resources long enough for them to gain an insurmountable lead, so we have a better chance of getting to relevant midgame spells. Jaces and thoughtseizes in the main improve the game 1 matchups against midrange and control generally over the anti-delver version. I have not run this against the newer (true old school, all cantrip) Sneak and Show decks from GP Chiba onward. It is fine against the Omni-sneak hybrids as they are more dependent on 3 plus mana spells and have slightly less mainboard disruption. I expect that in G1 verses the GP Chiba version this deck would be a substantial dog, but thoughtseize, wasteland, 8 counters, clique, and Leo give it a punchers chance. I could see adding a third Leo, second clique, or a Notion Thief to the board if you expect a lot of S&S as they are excellent to put in on a show and tell and keep your blue count up. The blue blasts in the board are particularly nice here as they will go to REBs and it is also a natural foil to Sneak attack and blood moon. I have chosen to build the deck without a good answer to a resolved large monster (murderous cut, vapor snag, etc) and am willing to concede the T0 reveal chancellor, T1 dark rit, reanimate on the play games. Playing faerie macabre in the board would be a potential out to this but I think I would rather have the power of surgical. I like the maelstrom pulse as I found I wanted a good answer to resolved planeswalkers. That is what comes to mind at the moment. Happy to discuss further.
Re: [Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)
Thx for the detailed answer.
I'm a long time 4c Delver player and wanted to try something else because the current builds are not exactly what I want and last couple results were just ok (4:2 & 3:1:1).
I thought about the 4c Goodstuff version from Tomas Mar but I hate his 4c manabase especially since the red part is just for 2-3 bolts and some Forked Bolts in the SB. I think a straight BUG colored manabase gives me more consistancy and a more easy gameplay. If we cut red we can go deeper into black for 2 Marsh Casualties in the SB (Would add 1 Bayou) which is straight better than FB vs Elves & DnT.
This is the list I'm thinking about:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
4 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Umezawas Jitte
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
Sideboard
3 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Marsh Casualties
2 Dismember
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Thoughtseize
FoW Count 23
Currently it's focused to beat the creature based MU'S like Delver, Eldrazi, DnT & Elves. I think if I want to up the TNN count to 3 I also should add a 20th land because I dont run the hierarchs and the deck is more clunky than the 4c Delver version which also has 19 lands, right?
I'm just afraid that a early Leovold eats a removal and draws me 1 card for 3 mana which strix does for 2 :rolleyes:
I really have to test that dude...
How would you build this deck without the hierarchs (I don't own them and dont want to buy 50€ birds :laugh:).
Re: [Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Manipulato
Currently it's focused to beat the creature based MU'S like Delver, Eldrazi, DnT & Elves. I think if I want to up the TNN count to 3 I also should add a 20th land because I dont run the hierarchs and the deck is more clunky than the 4c Delver version which also has 19 lands, right?
I'm just afraid that a early Leovold eats a removal and draws me 1 card for 3 mana which strix does for 2 :rolleyes:
I really have to test that dude...
How would you build this deck without the hierarchs (I don't own them and dont want to buy 50€ birds :laugh:).
Without hierarchs, I would probably go a bit more controlling. I would go to 20 or 21 lands including 1 basic and down to 2-3 wastelands. I would cut the dazes for one of the lands, a pierce and a hymn. I would cut one strix for 1 dismember/murderous cut, cut one strix for a snapcaster, and cut one ponder for a clique. That gives you slightly better mana and more powerful spells. You will still be strong against delver game 1 and can build your board accordingly. The hierarch builds play more like the slower delver builds, this will play more midrange but I think if you cut the hierarches that is what you want to do.
Edit: Also this posted today: http://www.channelfireball.com/video...sultai-legacy/
Edit 2: My list above has a mistake, my current version is 4 USea and 2 Trop, not 3:3.
Re: [Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)
I like your list. I really wanna get into this deck. I am not sure about daze in a deck like this. How good is it for you?
What are the bad and the good matchups?
Re: [Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Deckerator
I like your list. I really wanna get into this deck. I am not sure about daze in a deck like this. How good is it for you?
What are the bad and the good matchups?
With 7 dorks, the daze and wasteland packages are solid. People play around a daze a fair bit but with the wastelands and the many must answer threats, daze do a good job in game 1.
Re: [Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)
I was happy to see Reid's videos the other day, as I had been experimenting with GSZ BUG based on the Bant decks over the summer (before Leovold was printed). I watched his series, read the comments and saw that someone suggested a Snapcaster/Unearth package, which I thought was better than the TNNs. TNN + Goyf is just too many dummies that don't do anything and TNN without equips is pretty lackluster.
I also thought Collective Brutality seemed to do a lot for Reid, and solved some of the problems I had with the build I played earlier; namely, faster decks that could pressure my mana even with the acceleration because of their less-expensive threats and removal (specifically Lightning Bolt). It's helpful to just think of CoBru as a charm with potential upside, or a terrible (but black) Lightning Bolt. Reid won a game with it and the drain can be relevant when games start to get away from you.
Last night I played this build to a 3-0 finish beating Dredge, Deathblade, and Reanimator. With the Thoughtseizes and Snaps, I didn't feel like having Daze and the mana advantage was as important, so I cut down to two Wastelands and played three basics so I could get my stuff online easily. Dryad Arbor in particular was really unimpressive for Reid. I decided to play a 5th dork in the form of a Hierarch, but it wasn't super relevant as there weren't a ton of times where I really thought, "What I want here is a turn 1 dork." I may cut it to get the third Wasteland in but haven't decided yet. Honestly, DRS is so insanely powerful that T1 thoughtseize, T2 GSZ for DRS makes your T3s pretty awesome without just powering out Leovold.
I never got to cast Painful Truths, and that could be a lot of things: a Life from the Loam, a Spell Pierce, a Sylvan Library, etc. But I think I'll keep it for now. Deck felt really smooth and I felt in control of all my matches.
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Trygon Predator
1 Baleful Strix
1 Noble Hierarch
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Collective Brutality
2 Ponder
1 Painful Truths
1 Dismember
1 Unearth
4 Delta
3 U Sea
2 Misty
2 Verdant
2 Wasteland
2 Trop
2 Bayou
3 basics
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Flusterstorm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Dismember
1 Disfigure
1 Dread of Night
1 Engineered Plague
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Chill
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
This is the original build I played in August: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post966594
Re: [Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)
So after playing BUG Delver a bit and Shardless for quite a while I am thinking BUG Midrange is the right spot to be for an open meta. Shardless was just losing so hard to combo, and BUG Delver made me play Delver, which I think is the worst card in the list.
I put together this to play around with, and so far it feels pretty smooth:
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Baleful Strix
3x True-Name Nemesis
1x Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
1x Spell Pierce
3x Hymn to Tourach
4x Abrupt Decay
1x Toxic Deluge
4x Polluted Delta
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Misty Rainforest
3x Underground Sea
2x Tropical Island
2x Bayou
4x Wasteland
Sideboard
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Spell Pierce
2x Thoughtseize
2x Pithing Needle
1x Null Rod
1x Golgari Charm
1x Toxic Deluge
2x Disfigure
1x Garruk Relentless
1x Vendilion Clique
Re: [Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)
I was going down the same path as you, Venomous, but found it's really hard to keep up with some of the draws out of Delver without 1-mana removal, especially on the draw. Complicating that was many of the Delver decks playing TNN now, which means you need to play clunky edict or -1/-1 effects into Daze or find a way to kill their DRS before they untap. They are better Daze decks and though cards like Leo and JTMS are better than Delver in a vacuum, they're just so much lower to the ground that they are a better Daze deck. Grixis variants having access to Bolt makes our DRSes unreliable
Since you're not playing any basic lands anyway, I find it hard to rationalize not going into a 4th color for Bolt, which is what I plan on doing for the GP. When Fatal Push is legal, I look forward to playing a true BUG control deck. I truly believe that card is a game-changer for the archetype, particularly due to its interaction with Snapcaster Mage.
Re: [Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
maharis
I was going down the same path as you, Venomous, but found it's really hard to keep up with some of the draws out of Delver without 1-mana removal, especially on the draw. Complicating that was many of the Delver decks playing TNN now, which means you need to play clunky edict or -1/-1 effects into Daze or find a way to kill their DRS before they untap. They are better Daze decks and though cards like Leo and JTMS are better than Delver in a vacuum, they're just so much lower to the ground that they are a better Daze deck. Grixis variants having access to Bolt makes our DRSes unreliable
Since you're not playing any basic lands anyway, I find it hard to rationalize not going into a 4th color for Bolt, which is what I plan on doing for the GP. When Fatal Push is legal, I look forward to playing a true BUG control deck. I truly believe that card is a game-changer for the archetype, particularly due to its interaction with Snapcaster Mage.
Yeah this makes sense. There aren't many Delver decks at my shop (it is a lot of combo or fair grindy stuff) which is why I am considering this build. I did have this set up with a Volcanic Island and a Badlands but wasn't sure if it was worth the weird mana for the bolts. I guess it probably is for now.
But yeah once Push comes out I will be mainboarding probably 2-3 of those and remove some counters most likely. That card looks so great.
Re: [Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Venomous72
Yeah this makes sense. There aren't many Delver decks at my shop (it is a lot of combo or fair grindy stuff) which is why I am considering this build. I did have this set up with a Volcanic Island and a Badlands but wasn't sure if it was worth the weird mana for the bolts. I guess it probably is for now.
But yeah once Push comes out I will be mainboarding probably 2-3 of those and remove some counters most likely. That card looks so great.
Yikes, sorry that my post was so incomprehensible, probably should be paying closer attention to work.
Like you, I went several weeks without seeing a Delver deck and thought I was invincible, but then made a point to playtest against the archetype and got stomped repeatedly. I found that having the bolts was way better vs. delver and D&T, to the point of pushing delver to favorability and getting D&T closer to even (though still tough). I guess the way to look at it is that DRS is 30%+ of the format while Blood Moon is only about 10% and mostly sideboards, so better to play the odds even if a T1 moon will be the feel-baddiest.
Push will allow us to nuke early threats and should be a pretty good Snapcaster target. As long as we aren't under a ton of pressure, we should be able to get to cards like TNN and Jace to beat the cards that Push can't hit, and we of course also have access to bigger removal options like Liliana or Dismember if we need.
Plus, as games go long against fair decks Leovold gets better and better -- I drew three cards off of him last night before my D&T opponent stopped going after my manabase haha.
Re: [Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
maharis
Yikes, sorry that my post was so incomprehensible, probably should be paying closer attention to work.
Like you, I went several weeks without seeing a Delver deck and thought I was invincible, but then made a point to playtest against the archetype and got stomped repeatedly. I found that having the bolts was way better vs. delver and D&T, to the point of pushing delver to favorability and getting D&T closer to even (though still tough). I guess the way to look at it is that DRS is 30%+ of the format while Blood Moon is only about 10% and mostly sideboards, so better to play the odds even if a T1 moon will be the feel-baddiest.
Push will allow us to nuke early threats and should be a pretty good Snapcaster target. As long as we aren't under a ton of pressure, we should be able to get to cards like TNN and Jace to beat the cards that Push can't hit, and we of course also have access to bigger removal options like Liliana or Dismember if we need.
Plus, as games go long against fair decks Leovold gets better and better -- I drew three cards off of him last night before my D&T opponent stopped going after my manabase haha.
I wish Fatal Push went to the face as well haha. I might brew with this 4 color build a bit. It really is hard to get this BUG/Grixis/Delver/Non-delver pile exactly where I want it.
