Damned if you cut Candels, damned if you don't. It's a veritable choice of damnations, if you will.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
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Damned if you cut Candels, damned if you don't. It's a veritable choice of damnations, if you will.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
The only viable/proven way to overcome the card advantage and consistency issues (bad from behind, bad off the top) associated with both exploration and mox diamond, in the legacy format, is to include both life from the loam and tranquil thicket. Such heavy warping that you might as well head to the eternal garden thread and suggest they add an eye and an emrakul...
Hi to all, I've never played this deck but since I love ramp strategies I've decided to give it a spin. I've attended a local tournament with Rock Lee's UGR list: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post770703
Only differences were -1 fetch, +1 tropical island maindeck (because I want to have at least 4 green sources) and -1 glen elendra, -2 sneak attack, -2 swan song, +3 pithing needle, +1 karn liberated, +1 oblivion stone in the side (because I want more answers to planeswalker/wasteland and more removals). In the future I can see myself dropping the needles for 1 more of swan song, karn liberated and oblivion stone each.
The matchup were:
Round 1 vs stoneblade UW 2-0
G1 he puts some pressure with a true-name nemesis equipped with sword of fire and ice while a ramp with some cloudpost. A titan fetches me 2 glimmerposts that gives me another 1.5 turns which are sufficient for me to find and play emrakul.
G2 he builds an army of nemesis, stoneforge, meddling mage, jace, batterskull but glacial chasm buys me 2 turns during which I assemble multiple eldrazis
Side: -1 bonfire, -1 cropt rotation (he has counters and would side in more), -1 bojuka, +1 glacial chasm, +1 karn, +1 oblivion stone
Round 2 vs deathblade 2-0
G1 and G2: he applies some pressure with batterskull and nemesis but lighting bolts (on his other creatures) and repeals (on jace and equipments) buy me enough time to show and tell titan and play the happy t(h)ree friends (poor ulamog goes to plowshares)
Side: -1 bonfire, -1 cropt rotation (he has counters and would side in more), -1 bojuka, +1 glacial chasm, +1 karn, +1 oblivion stone
Round 3 vs burn 2-0
G1 and G2: my opponent has very poor hands and I win both games on the back of show&tell'ed titans (in one occasion with sulfuric vortex in play I fetched 2 glimmerpost, put the lifegain triggers on the stack, get mor mana from cloudpost and repeal the vortex)
Side: -2 bonfire, -2 lightning bolt, -1 bojuka bog, +1 glacial chasm, +2 flusterstorm, +2 swan song
Round 4 vs BUG nemesis ID
Top 4, semifinal vs deathbalde (of round 2) 2-0
G1 he plays discard, liliana, jace and wasteland which I haven't seen in Round 3. However I repeal liliana, play multiple cloudposts floating ulamog on top of the deck with sensei, than cast him destroying liliana. GG
G2 he plays turn 1 sensei then forces my pithing needle and drops meddling mage, jace and deathrite shaman. I ramp with map and normal drop (helped by top), buy some time repelling jace and bolting DRS, then when he's tapped out I play karn and ulamog and emrakul next turns
Side: having seen planeswalker and wastelands -2 bonfire, -1 lightning bolt, -2 crop rotation, +1 karn, +1 oblivion stone, +3 pithing needle
Split in the final for a 50€ prize.
The deck is very funny and thoughtful to play, which for me is a great pro. Moreover I like the control style that red offers, slowing the game to our pace. Admittedly, I've onestly got no experience with this deck so I may have miss some optimal play and obviously I don't know how it will play with candelabra, but still I feel it's a strong deck.
Nice winning! How was the Karn? Did he come up any other times? I've been curious about adding one..Quote:
Originally Posted by kingtk3
Hi guys,
First of all congrats on the win kingtk3
I've also been toying with the UGR version, but only adding red for 3x Bonfires. After reading your report, and knowing that my metagame is similar to yours, I'm tempted to to add some amount of Lightnings, as also other player suggested. Were they worth it? It seems a weird card in a ramp deck but I supose it can buy us time in those metas. (Mine is U and non-U mindrange creature decks, some control, almost no combo...)
However I can't find room for them, even for 2. I own one Candelabra, and I'm also running a Trinket mage, is a bad decission to cut them? Maybe one Crop Rotation? I don't want to get rid of the Needles.
Thanks!
Glad to see i'm not the only italian that's crazy enough to bring this monstrousity to tournaments :)
Thank you all for the welcome ^_^
@TimHarding: I drew Karn only once during the tournament, but when I did it was a game winning spell. So it was oblivion stone, to which I give more credit than all is dust right now due to the high number of equipment played. It's also to be noted that both deal with opposing planeswalkers, so I'm thinking to change the 3 needles in the side with one each of Karn, oblivion stone and swan song.
@BVB09: I like bonfire a lot, but in this deck I see it as a mid game mass removal/planeswalker removal/winning condition. However it doesn't help in the early game which is what this deck lacks: lightning bolt instead fits well this role killing basically any creature short of goyf for just 1 mana. Killing a deathrite, a stoneforge or a Bob is essential for slowing the game to the point where our big spells matters. As a bonus it can also kill jace if they don't fateseal immediately.
So I found that lightning bolt fits well my playstyle, but as far as I can understand this deck using candelabras changes how you play this deck to the point that, with my little experience, I cannot advice you what to cut in order to add the bolts.
I can say, however, that I found that bonfire functionally overlapses with oblivion stone and, partially, Karn in the sense that they all are board control elements. Thus I'm thinking about cutting red completely and instead playing 4 swords to plowshares and 2 oblvion stone/karn maindeck. Killing anything short a goyf is nice but killing anything, no questions asked, feels nicer.
@Davek: I can build basically any legacy deck, but in the end I always find myself playing something "non conventional" like MUD stompy with Godo, Big red, reanimator, waterfall. I like decks that requires you to think and do funny things ^_^
Do you have sideboard strategies for these two lists?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
So I'm testing this build at the moment:
LANDS 26
1 island
4 tropical island
3 tundra
4 misty rainforest
4 cloudpost
4 glimmerpost
3 vesuva
1 karakas
1 bojuka bog
1 eye of ugin
MONSTERS 3
1 emrakul, the aeons torn
1 kozilek, butcher of truth
1 ulamog, the infinite gyre
CHEATERS 3
3 show and tell
LAND SEARCHERS 10
4 primeval titan
3 expedition map
3 crop rotation
FILTERING 8
4 sensei's divining top
4 brainstorm
REMOVALS 10
4 swords to plowshares
4 repeal
2 karn liberated
SIDE
4 force of will
3 swan song
3 flusterstorm
1 glacial chasm
2 oblivion stone
2 sacred ground / life from the loam / pithing needle
It's very similar to the UGr version in the sense that relies on more control elements to survive the first rounds instead of going full speed for the combo.
I decided to try the white splash mainly because swords to plowshares is better than lightning bolt, although it doesn't hit planeswalker: once in a while you can kill their jace of they play it and brainstorm instead of fatesealing, but it's not something you have to expect from decent players.
Karn is the slot I'm mostly battled over: when it hits the board you can go in full control, especially if you have sworded or repealled something in opponent's eot, but when the board is full of threats it may be luckster. In these cases oblivion stone would be better, but it only functions as reset button, while I prefer something with more applications. What do you think about this?
In the side, apart the standard anti combo tools, I would like to try some defense against land destruction although I'm not so sure about it: what could I play instead?
Any criticism is appreciated.
EDIT: I'll bring this baby to a tournament next tuesday!!!
Since you are testing white, it would probably be the effective but narrow Sacred Ground. Which still doesn't handle Blood Moon.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingtk3
That was already in my side: I'm undecided between sacred ground, life from the loam or pithing needle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopo
With Sacred ground you don't loose your land drop (because it put the land back into play) but doesn't do anything to stifle on fetch (though I only play 4). It's also a preemptive element.
With Life from the loam gives you have to replay the lands you get back but you can also dredge for find more lands or escape a brain-lock or sensei-lock. It's a reactive card.
Pithing needle has more applications but it's preemptive and protects only against wasteland (reguarding LD). It doesn't care about deathrite though.
Of the three maybe Life from the loam is the better but I'm open to suggestions ^_^
Looking at your list, i would definitely switch Karns for O. Stones. You really don't have any permanent that can be affected by them (except creatures on the field, of course) since you can obviously spin your top and sacrifice your maps before activating it. Karn is a good card, but as you said in a field clogged with enemy creatures it tends to die in an eyeblink, not changing much of your gamestate.
I also feel your land count is pretty high, 26 lands without chasm, and you're lacking shuffling effects. Since you only need one white mana to cast all your white spells, i would consider switching 1 tundra for 1 additional fetchland.
Your list also seems pretty soft to sneak and show, so i'd consider bringing in sb your pithing needles if someone in your area usually picks up this deck.
I was considering switching a tundra for a fetch too in order to add another shuffle effect, but the land count would remain 26: what land do you suggest I could cut, and for what?Quote:
Originally Posted by Davek
Regarding Karn vs oblivion I think it depends of the local meta: lately there has been an explosion of xblade deck in mine and against those deck I think that karn is better because they tend to have at most a couple of creatures in play at the same time. If I'd smell some merfolk or goblin then oblivion is surely better.
[Heh, not having played this version makes it hard to point out what should surely be cut, i think i would keep glacial chasm maindeck while shaving a tropical island. You don't have sweepers, and chasm saves you in a lot of situation where "you need some more time", shutting off a TNN equipped with something deadly, a goblin-token horde from empty the warrens or a belcher activation.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingtk3
Also, Life from the Loam is awful. Definitely. Immagine not having a top in play in order to control your topdecks. Deciding to dredge your LftL could be disastrous. You happily dredge it because you really need that cloupost that has been smashed last turn by a providential wasteland, only to discover that you have just dredged an eldrazi, that immediately shuffles all your graveyard back in your library so that you end with nothing but a horrible card that now can't do nothing for you. If you're looking for a single activation, i'd rather play Restore, at least it puts the chosen land directly into play.
That's really a good point, something to think about...
I'm not inclined to drop a tropical because I'm not playing candelabra and it could be difficult to achieve GG for titans. I think I'd cut a vesuva if I have to.
Hi,
(I am from France, and my english is not perfect, I apologize for that). I am playing the deck for almost one year and half and I have satisfying results with it.
Here is the list I am playing (very classic):
I won last month a local tournament winning 2-0 against my opponents (Rock, BUG Nemesis, All Spells, BUG Nemesis).Quote:
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Island
1 Forest
4 Primeval Titan
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4 Show and Tell
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Crop Rotation
4 Repeal
3 Expedition Map
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Pithing Needle
1 Oblivion Stone
SB: 3 Devastation Tide
SB: 2 Elephant Grass
SB: 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 4 Force of Will
SB: 4 Swan Song
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
I finished second to another local tournament winning 2-0 versus Slivers, 2-0 versus Death & Taxes, 2-1 versus Jund and loosing 2-1 versus Merfolk.
My defeat versus Merfolk was not the first and was mainly due to bad sideboarding choices I have made after winning first game. I side out the Needles, Bog and 1 Map for 3 Tides, 2 Grass and Tabernacle. Tides helped me but I didn't see Grass nor Tabernacle, while being pressured by 2 Mutavault... (I took too many counters at G2 and did a mana death at G3 being stuck at 3 lands and with a needle on my Top).
I would like to establish "automatic" sideboarding plans in order to avoid repeating this kind of mistakes in the future. I often side in more cards than I side out, and I am not sure this is a very good option, but I never know which card I should side out... What would you "sacrifice" ?
Any comment or advice is welcome :)
I like your list! Nice showings. Are the devastation tides a response to a Merfolk heavy meta? How often do you use them? I am undecided right now..Quote:
Originally Posted by edk
Also I agree that we should all discuss sideboarding in fine detail. While I don't believe sideboarding should be an algorithmic process, rather one that depends on the game flow, there certainly should be some guidelines that we can arrive at based upon everyone's experience. The post approach is like no other in magic and the sideboarding reflects that.
Several pages ago, rock lee commented on shifting the density of lands/spells for combo and tempo matches, we should keep this in mind, as the land count is fair game for adjustment games 2 and 3.
hello everyone. im just getting into this archetype as of late. it seems like a ton of fun!
im wondering if green is needed at all. is it really worth running blue AND green for basically JUST crop rotation? i see the power in it, but it really sucks getting blown out by a counterspell, especially ones you cant easily play around (force of will).
i was looking for decklists and i stumbled upon a colorless version of this deck. maybe you guys have talked about it before (ive only paged through 20 or so pages in this thread so forgive me if this has already been brought up).
is something like this viable at all? have you guys tried this style of the deck?
4 Cloudpost
4 Rishadan Port
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
4 Deserted Temple
4 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
1 Eye of Ugin
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Metalworker
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
2 Lodestone Golem
4 Expedition Map
3 Sculpting Steel
4 Tangle Wire
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Tower of Fortunes
2 Trinisphere
Sideboard
2 [SOM] Wurmcoil Engine
1 [ARC] Lodestone Golem
3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
3 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
3 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
3 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
do you think a mono blue version of this decklist could be viable without the crop rotations? or maybe a mono green version?
thanks in advance guys :D i look forward to testing more in the near future!
PS: how do deck tags work on this website? this is my first post XD
First of all, Primeval Titan is also a part of the deck, in face a very big and important part. I would go as far as saying this wouldn't be a deck at all without that card.Quote:
Originally Posted by sun tzu
If you're playing Crop Rotation vs. a deck with counterspells, you shouldn't be playing Crop Rotation aggressively or at a point where it would be bad if you lost a land. Usually a deck playing counterspells is going to have wasteland so if it does play it defensively vs. wasteland. If it doesn't have wasteland however, play it when you are okay with the opponent countering it. I found 4 Crop Rotations to be a bit too much because of the weaknesses of it but it's still a very good card in this deck.
The problem with using a colorless version of this deck is that it's way too inconsistent, slow, and much easier disrupted. If you want to play a colorless version of this deck you might as well play MUD which has much better control elements and is much faster.
The deck doesn't really work without green and blue working together (mono green is ok as a budget option though) because both are key parts to making this deck good.
This deck is a very difficult deck to pilot, you really gotta play it to see the power in it.
ahh i cant believe i forgot about prime time also XD good point.Quote:
Originally Posted by 203995014
thanks for the insight man.