[Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

Alright, so, since Sinkhole becomes less and less useful the more that Legacy develops, and Thoughtseize is freaking sweet, I've been wanting to remake this deck packing playsets of Duress, Thoughtseize, Hymn, and Verdict for complete hand annihilation. This would also include H-Speck, Confidant, Shade, the ever versatile Vindicate, and some form of noncreature kill, either a 2/2 split of Scroll/Something else, or just 4 copies of The Rack.

I suppose a sample list of what I'm assembling might be something like this.

4 Scrubland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
8 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual

4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Gerrard's Verdict
4 Vindicate

4 Dark Confidant
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 The Rack (Or 2 Scrolls, 2 Explosives, or something of that nature)

SB:
4 Engineered Plague
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Extirpate
3 Pithing Needle

So I guess I'm mostly curious if anyone's really reinvestigated the possibility of a discard-heavy build since the printing of Thoughtseize.

Problem is, even with my current discard suite (of 3 duress, 3 seize, and 4 hymn) they're completely dead after like turn 4. Especially without land destruction to keep your opponent from playing their topdecks, more discard will almost certainly translate into more dead draws late game.

There are remidies to this (top, etc.) but nothing spectacular. Have you tried it? How did it work?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rsaunder

Problem is, even with my current discard suite (of 3 duress, 3 seize, and 4 hymn) they're completely dead after like turn 4. Especially without land destruction to keep your opponent from playing their topdecks, more discard will almost certainly translate into more dead draws late game.

There are remidies to this (top, etc.) but nothing spectacular. Have you tried it? How did it work?

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my thoughts exactly

@Taco - Instead of the Rack, Scroll, EE why not run Jotun Grunt? Seems better at dealing damage than The Rack, and it hoses any 'goyf that flew under the radar. I think it seems like a better quality card for a deck like this.

Screw Grunt. Play Stalker. Thresh isn't the world, and Stalker is miles better against almost everything else.

@ Taco:

No offense, but your build seems horrible against Thresh; the discard isn't fast enough, and you don't have any real answers. There isn't even Dystopia in the board...how does the Matchup play out?

@Everyone:

What do you think about Shriekmaw in the deck? He's versatile and evasive(although slow...), and kills every creature in Thresh...

i dont like shriekmaw because i play stalket too and shriekmaw hurts too much with confidant if youre running stalker and vindicate too.

this is my new list:

3xlynx
4xconfidant
3xshade
2xtombstalker

4xstp
4xritual

3xexplosives

2xduress
2xthougthseize
4xhymn
4xvindicate
4xsinkhole

4xscrubland
1xgodless shrine
4xwasteland
7xswamp
1xtomb of urami

sb:

4xchainer's edict
4xwinthered wretch
2xextirpate
1xexplosives
4xengineered plague

i play sinkholes again because i really like them and there even good againt loam decks if you play it right.

i moved my 'pates to the sideboard becuase they did not very much in the mainboard. i think i'll cut the 1 explosives side to a 3th extirpate but on this moment i own but 2 extirpates.

the only thing my build sucks against is a resolved ...moon, i have almost no answers on this except for beating harder then he does. i already play with a plains in the mainboard and a single heath but it really sucked. maybe smother or something in the main would be good?

Keep in mind I haven't even played my above build but like, thirty or forty games.

Threshold, or all two matches I played against it, only seems to turn awful if I cut The Rack, which is a large reason of why I'm running it. The Rack is good against Threshold. I went 0-2 without it, and 2-0 with it, though it's fair to say the two games I lost were blowouts and the two I won were fairly close. The main reason I win games against Thresh is by managing some serious hand disruption, a Confidant or Specter, The Rack, and usually some ground stalling against Tarmogoyfs via Nantuko Shade or Vindicate. (I literally won game one by topdecking a Hymn with two Racks on the table after chump blocking a Goyf/Mongoose combination.)

As for the discard being dead midgame, I'm aware. I might downgrade a Duress or two after some more testing.

I'm not playing Jotun Grunt because Jotun Grunt is awful. It can improve Threshold or Ichorid matchups all day long and it's still a bad card.

@Shriekmaw and Tombstalker: These are not a good idea with Dark Confidant. Although you might get away with this if you had Sensei's Divining Top.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

@Shriekmaw and Tombstalker: These are not a good idea with Dark Confidant. Although you might get away with this if you had Sensei's Divining Top.

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Actually, I do run Top. I find it makes the deck run far smoother. Besides, I already run Bob and fetches, so why not?

On the Rack: What if you don't draw it/don't draw enough? The way you put it, the Thresh matchup seems to basically be based on drawing 1 of 4 cards fast.

Why would anyone play the rack in legacy, a format where Brainstorm, standstill and/or FOF are in like 75 % of decks? The rack really needs your opponents hand to be empty to work, not to mention the fact that if you play sinkhole it will leave more cards in there hand.

Top is nice to have in dead guy, it's really nice if you run Tomb Stalker.

Because when Tacosnape talked about the Rack, he was discussing its use in a deck with 16 discard spells, 8 of which discard 2 cards.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hummingbird TG

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No offense, but your build seems horrible against Thresh; the discard isn't fast enough, and you don't have any real answers. There isn't even Dystopia in the board...how does the Matchup play out?

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Don't you kill yourself running Dystopia? I mean, the damage isn't that low.

You destroy one creature, a Goyf or a Goose for 0 life, which is fair. Then in your upkeep you decide if you want to destroy another Goyf for 1 Life which is usually fair too. Then in your next upkeep, if your opponent still has a creature left, which is unlikely, you pay 2 life to destroy a 3rd creature which is still very fair. And if he somehow manage to still have a creature left, you kill a 4th creature for 3 life unless you'd kill yourself or you'd go down to 3 against Red Thresh and could handle the creature with your board and hand cards, too.

Personally I prefer Damnation. It's generally a surprise, they don't expect it.

Regarding Dystopia: Actually, you destroy one creature without cost. 2 creatures for 1 life, 3 for 3 life. 4 would cost 6 life, but when has Thresh had 4 creatures out? If they do, chances are you're happy to pay it knowing they just lost half the threats in their deck.

Regarding The Rack: The Rack is actually awesome against Brainstorm-decks. Brainstorm doesn't increase your card count nor does anything else in Threshold-style decks (cantrips just increase your card quality and guess what? Discard-deck doesn't care about your card quality, every card is equal to discard-effects), so every card they play, and every discard-spell is -1 cards in their hand, thus activating the Rack real quick as they replenish much more slowly. It's not perfect against control, but it's quite good against midrange, and you can empty just about any deck's hand with that discard suite. Remember that if someone holds cards back, they're playing right into your hands, so the optimal route is to fill up the board, else they're just giving you use for your discard-spells. The potential MUs where the Rack might be a lackluster are Goblins and board control (which you should do very well against to start with).

You are right, my bad. I player that card on tourneys, and I played it right, then. Sorry for the confusion. I edited my post.

I don't agree with the rack. While threats like Shade, Tombstalker and Confidant and also cards like Spectral Lynx or Cursed Scroll help to fight to gain control over the board, the rack is doing nothing except dealing damage. That only works if you are in the offense and your opponent can't outrace you, In times of Goyf it is not unlikely that he will be just faster than you.

@ Tacosnape

I've played around with alot of discard variants - if you splash white it ultimately ends up looking like Deadguy. General advice, if you're going heavy discard, keep your mana curve low as possible. Also you want to keep your threat count high as possible. If you can afford a splash, then you probably want a way to fix your draws.

Recommendations:

1) As much as I love vindicate, it comes on a bit late and when it finally does, it's almost always will take a full turns worth of mana. I'd cut 1x. Seems so insignificant, but you never want 2x in your opening hand.

2) Threats! Tombstalker is worth a thought, not great synergy with Confidant but I'd atleast consider it for a moment. A better inclusion if you're going Discard Heavy: Nezumi Shortfang, probably against as a 2-of. Another rack effect, recurring discard - the drawback, he needs to be brought online a little slowly. The last thing you want to do with your turn 2 play is drop this guy. Cursed scroll is another good edition.

3) Card Manipulation - Sensei's Diving top. If you're going to run Confidant and Fetches, then this is practially a must for Discard. Those late dead draws into discard are shuffled away and you can mitigate any life loss effects the majority of the time. This, in my opinion is probably the most important development to the deck.

Really though, I have to ask why anyone would play discard with a white splash (i.e. deadguy with heavy emphasis on discard) over other variants? As much as I love discard, it's weak in this form. The reasons to run white: Stp (which is sideboarded - and rightly so I think in your deck), Vindicate (the real reason, but not nearly as powerful as when it was complimented with Sinkhole and legacy's environment was a bit different), and Verdict, which is the weakest discard spell hear. Cabal Therapy is debateably better, especially when you're running both Thoughtseize and Duress.

That's my two cents. Best of luck. I like the innovation if nothing else. A sidenote: I'd really recommend the discard with burn variants if you want a splash. In my opinion, they're strictly better than that incarnation. Good luck whatever you choose.

Any suggestions or comments on Shriekmaw, anyone? I personally find it fine, it's not dead against creatureless decks much either.

i really like shriekmaw in many decks but i think, if youre not running top, shriekmaw hurts too much with confidant, especcially when youre running tombstalker too.

may i see youre list because im really interested now.

I don't like Maw, too. You already have better spot Removal with Swords and even Smother would be superior as a removal to Maw beacuse it hits Bob and Ravager.

Getting 5 Mana and then having an opponent who has an unprotected, targetable creature is unrealistic. It won't happen with consistence, maybe once every 7 games. I've played some tourneys with GBW Survival now and I have NEVER hardcasted my Shriekmaw in them.

And even with Top in the deck you shouldn't overload Bob with High CC spells, 3 Stalker are enough.

A question on playing Thoughtseize: Is there any situation where playing a Thoughtseize in hand turn 1 is not the right play? (examples, please, too)

Say, if I have a hand of Land, Land, Rit, Arena, Thoughtseize, Stalker, Vindicate/Swords or something, would the better turn one play be Rit-> Arena or Thoughtseize?