[Deck] Turbo Depths

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Originally Posted by Fade

I do. Dark Confidant is inherently difficult for them to beat. I also leave in NOTW in that matchup so sometimes you take large chunks off of Dark Confidant but Miracles has next to no clock so you shouldn't worry too much about Bob killing you. Steely Resolve also helps in the matchup and naming Human for Bob creates a threat they have to terminus away or accept that they will be out-carded.

I don't normally board in Surgicals as my board plan already involves around ~10 cards for the matchup but it is a possibility. I just feel between Steely Resolve, NOTW and Crop Rotation for Steppe, Surgicals are not needed for Plows. It's also awkward when Miracles boards in a Rest In Peace thinking that you play Life from the Loam.

Natural State is better against Blood Moon and Non-Chalice cards than Abrupt Decay. It allows you to only need 1 fast mana to get rid of a Blood Moon instead of two. It's a small hedge but I think it's worth it.

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Could you post a sideboard in/out against Miracles? If there are differences between Legends and typical Predict/Mentor builds could you specify those? I'm really interested in trying the Dark Confidants, but I would probably cut NOTW if that was the plan. I don't run Steely Resolve so I don't know about that. I have thought about Thrun, the Last Troll + Karakas because it beats Terminus and Plow and also seems fine against Stoneblade, but that might be too cute. I don't play Surgical in the matchup anymore, and that comes from testing against Sam Roukas online (IsThisACatinAHat). He recommended Drownyard but I think we can do better.

If I was going to run another artifact/enchantment removal spell, I would run Krosan Grip over Natural State, because then we can bring it in vs. Miracles and have it do something.

Miracles question: How does everyone's opponents board vs us? I was trying to test the matchup last night and I believe their best board plan is something like:

-2 Predict
-1 Counterspell
-1 Force of Will
-1 Counterbalance
-2 Terminus (I really don't think this is optimal, but it gets cut entirely vs. typical Lands so maybe it's fine? Not sure what else to cut...)

+2 Blood Moon (obvious)
+2 Wear/Tear (I'm pretty sure they HAVE to bring this in to survive potential Choke or Library)
+1 E.E. (to kill Needles only? Might be too fringe)
+2 Surgical Extraction (can deal with a graveyard plan post-board such as Loam/Crucible, can hit Abrupt Decay after baiting one out so that Blood Moon is a lock, can hit Depths)

How do sideboarding plans differ for you guys?

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Originally Posted by DNSolver

Could you post a sideboard in/out against Miracles? If there are differences between Legends and typical Predict/Mentor builds could you specify those? I'm really interested in trying the Dark Confidants, but I would probably cut NOTW if that was the plan. I don't run Steely Resolve so I don't know about that. I have thought about Thrun, the Last Troll + Karakas because it beats Terminus and Plow and also seems fine against Stoneblade, but that might be too cute. I don't play Surgical in the matchup anymore, and that comes from testing against Sam Roukas online (IsThisACatinAHat). He recommended Drownyard but I think we can do better.

If I was going to run another artifact/enchantment removal spell, I would run Krosan Grip over Natural State, because then we can bring it in vs. Miracles and have it do something.

Miracles question: How does everyone's opponents board vs us? I was trying to test the matchup last night and I believe their best board plan is something like:

-2 Predict
-1 Counterspell
-1 Force of Will
-1 Counterbalance
-2 Terminus (I really don't think this is optimal, but it gets cut entirely vs. typical Lands so maybe it's fine? Not sure what else to cut...)

+2 Blood Moon (obvious)
+2 Wear/Tear (I'm pretty sure they HAVE to bring this in to survive potential Choke or Library)
+1 E.E. (to kill Needles only? Might be too fringe)
+2 Surgical Extraction (can deal with a graveyard plan post-board such as Loam/Crucible, can hit Abrupt Decay after baiting one out so that Blood Moon is a lock, can hit Depths)

How do sideboarding plans differ for you guys?

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From what I have played in Miracles, you are accurate on the cards I would bring in, I don't run predict but I would probably do something like
-2 Mentor
-1 JTMS
-1 Counterbalance
-2 Counterspell
-1 E.E
I personally don't cut terminus against any creature strategy, this could be wrong but it hasn't come back to bite me yet. I would cut mentor and aim for the entreat or find my 1 of Jace for a slow win after hopefully extracting depths. That is just how I play the deck.

Just a quick thought, I had a TON of people side in shit like Rest in Peace and Surgicals (for Loam) against me because they thought I was a Lands variant with graveyard reliance. The surgicals are obviously relevant, but even if people get Turn 2'd by Hexmage they still side in gravehate. Figured it worth a mention going forward for sideboard considerations (Loam, Crucible, Worm Harvest, etc).

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Originally Posted by Claymore

Just a quick thought, I had a TON of people side in shit like Rest in Peace and Surgicals (for Loam) against me because they thought I was a Lands variant with graveyard reliance. The surgicals are obviously relevant, but even if people get Turn 2'd by Hexmage they still side in gravehate. Figured it worth a mention going forward for sideboard considerations (Loam, Crucible, Worm Harvest, etc).

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I play with 1 loam main deck and almost always sideboard it out game 2 because of that very issue. In the grand scheme of things, if taking it out so often i might just consider another main deck card. The issue is as a 1 of for game 1, it adds so much value.

Yeah, I've been aware of surgicals getting boarded in vs me even if they know I'm not RG combo lands. Definitely more and more in favor of the Emrakul 2.0 plan.

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Originally Posted by DNSolver

Could you post a sideboard in/out against Miracles? If there are differences between Legends and typical Predict/Mentor builds could you specify those? I'm really interested in trying the Dark Confidants, but I would probably cut NOTW if that was the plan. I don't run Steely Resolve so I don't know about that. I have thought about Thrun, the Last Troll + Karakas because it beats Terminus and Plow and also seems fine against Stoneblade, but that might be too cute. I don't play Surgical in the matchup anymore, and that comes from testing against Sam Roukas online (IsThisACatinAHat). He recommended Drownyard but I think we can do better.

If I was going to run another artifact/enchantment removal spell, I would run Krosan Grip over Natural State, because then we can bring it in vs. Miracles and have it do something.

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Here was the notes from the sb guide I made for miracles before the tournament.

In: 4 Dark Confidant, 3 Abrupt Decay, Pithing Needle, 2 Steely Resolve (Can board in some number of Surgical for Swords)
Out: Bojuka Bog, 2 Crop Rotation, 4 Lotus Petal, Into the North, 2 Sylvan Scrying
Needle: Sensei's Divining Top, Karakas, Jace, Fetches (Engineered Explosives - after board)

I treat all the versions of miracles the same as the combo is much faster than their clock and all I'm trying to do is make a 20/20 and protect it as much as possible. It may be strange to cut Crop Rotation, but I want to shave 1 drops in case of cb lock. I do not cut NOTW against miracles. They have plenty of ways to target the 20/20 and you want as much protection as possible. Taking 7 off of Bob will not kill you in this matchup. Just think of the Jim Davis' Sultai Delver deck where he plays Bobs and Forces main. I have a similar plan here.

Thrun is interesting but 4 mana is too much in my opinion. The legends and mentor Miracles lists also have ways to block Thrun so it is not even a guaranteed 5 turn clock from when you play it.

As for Krosan Grip over Natural State, I prefer to have the cheaper costing spell. Honestly, I prefer all my sb cards to be 2 mana or under. There are plenty of awkward draws in the deck where you make a 20/20 on turn 2 and have no lands left in play. The Natural State allows you to play a land and answer an Elephant's Grass or Ensnaring Bridge. It also helps against Blood Moon only needing one fast mana or the basic forest. I don't think I want another card for Miracles. If I did I would just run the last Abrupt Decay.

Just wanted to say thanks to all of you who have contributed to the thread and the deckbuilding. Because of the "GP Chiba - 133rd" reddit post, I am actively building this deck now after playing Elves! for 3-4 years. ("Unfortunately for him I rip a crop rotation and sejiri steppe right past him" is the best quote I've ever read in a tournament report write-up.)


I'm testing it out before biting the bullet on buying the 4 Dark Depths and obviously waiting on Verdant Catacombs to be reprinted. Still need the 4 Sphere of Resistance OR 4 Chalice of the Void and 1 Crucible of Worlds (Here's hoping I pull one tomorrow at the AER Pre-Release. LoL), but everything else that I needed I bought for myself as a Christmas present.


Anyway, after reading through all 61 pages (yes, I've read it all, forgotten a lot of who specifically wrote what, but I've read it all. Again, thanks to all of you for the posts), I'm leaning towards DNSolver's list, but 2 things I'm wondering about that I don't think have been brought up yet:

What about a 1-2 of Centaur Vinecrasher if we want a big dumb trampling beater? I'm thinking of testing it just for fun to see if another threat is a good idea (after our lands have been used, there are usually a lot of lands in both players' graveyards in Legacy, and after our opponent has used some number of StPs and Terminus on our Tokens if it goes that late? I don't know)?


What are everyone's thoughts on Living Wish and leaving 1 Vampire Hexmage and 1 Dark Depths in the sideboard? Lukas Marik played a list with 4 in some random Legacy tournament in Switzerland. Interesting to me, though he cut Into the North/Expedition Map for them.

http://gameplace.ch/gpevents/legacy-8-1-17/


I know we're weak to Swords to Plowshares, Terminus, and Surgical Extraction, but I'm thinking these 2 suggestions might be worth testing.
*edit: I forgot to mention that we are weak to card advantage after using all our fast mana and resources, so I get that 4 mana is tough. The Dark Confidant suggestion is interesting to me, as well. I have a soft spot for Sylvan Library, so that will always be in my list.

Anyway, just wanted to jump on the board and say Thanks and that I've joined the ranks of Turbo Dark Depths. Deck is sweet.

I'm not so much a fan of Sylvan Library in this deck, although I love the card in every other green deck. Too often you need exactly one tool for the situation, and Sylvan is better for smoothing out an interactive game, not just jamming a big pile of spaghetti on the field.

I actually like the idea of removing Into the North/Map for Living Wish. I cut ItN/Map in almost every game since Map is slow and ItN leaves you open to a wasteland on Depths. I didn't want to keep it in for the Rampant Growth effect. Being able to fetch up Depths, Hexmage, Stage, Tabernacle, GQ, Wasteland, Shizo, Steppe, Rec Sage, Sylvan Safekeeper whatever seems worth checking out.

For sideboard vs miracles what do we think of Liliana, the Last Hope?
For the people who tried Nephalia Drownyard how did you splash blue?

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Originally Posted by Barthalamou

For sideboard vs miracles what do we think of Liliana, the Last Hope?
For the people who tried Nephalia Drownyard how did you splash blue?

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Thespian stage copies an Island or tundra. Drownyard is a slow play. I think last hope isn't what we are looking for against miracles. The removal is great against many other decks, but miracles doesn't play that many x/1 threats. It doesn't stop mentor, it doesn't create enough pressure to force their hand like Garruk does. That all being said test it out and see how she does. Her ultimate will end the game if they can't remove her.

I'm going to play the Legacy challenge on MTGO today. Trying a new sideboard that's less focused on beating combo and more focused on beating Miracles / Stoneblade:

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Karakas
3 Sylvan Library
2 Garruk Relentless

I cut Chalices altogether because the matchups I'm bringing in Chalice are pretty much just combo decks, and with less Storm in the meta I'm confident that my Surgicals + Libraries to find more discard / Surgicals will be sufficient. Against both kinds of Reanimator I will be a little worse off because of no Chalice, but with 4 Surgicals and the Libraries to dig for more of them I think I'll be fine.

Edit: Recent testing of the Miracles matchup with Dark Confidant / Library was fine but I think I would rather have Library. The Mentor plan is too aggressive for a late-game plan such as Drownyard / Factory to work. Eye of Ugin / Coffers *might* still be fast enough because you should win or force a Terminus as soon as you hit 15 mana. However, I'm going to try the 3 Library / 2 Garruk plan for the event because I tried Eye+Coffers at the GP and I never cast Emrakul. :(

Edit 2: This is not to say that the Drownyard or Factory won't work. If your opponent boards out Mentor and Entreat for some reason, you can get them with your own inevitability. However, in my experience Mentor stays in because Jace gets Vindicate'd by Vampire Hexmage.

I would love to stream the event, but I've moved back into college and I'm respecting the shared space of my dorm room. So I will record the matches this evening after the event when my roommate goes to a prerelease and upload them to Youtube tonight or tomorrow. I will post my results and a link to videos.

So, I picked up an interest in this deck recently. I've been looking at various options out of the board, and one of the things that at this point is glaringly obvious is the deck's susceptibility to Surgical Extraction. I think at this point it's fairly ubiquitously known that a well-timed Surgical can do some serious damage to this deck.

Has anyone thought of or tried Petrified Field? Perhaps one in the main and one of the board for redundancy against Wastelands and Surgical? The card isn't out of place anyhow, because at the very worst it can act as an additional copy of your combo piece in the graveyard and retrievable with Crop Rotation in the face of a Surgical Extraction.

Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Michael Keller

So, I picked up an interest in this deck recently. I've been looking at various options out of the board, and one of the things that at this point is glaringly obvious is the deck's susceptibility to Surgical Extraction. I think at this point it's fairly ubiquitously known that a well-timed Surgical can do some serious damage to this deck.

Has anyone thought of or tried Petrified Field? Perhaps one in the main and one of the board for redundancy against Wastelands and Surgical? The card isn't out of place anyhow, because at the very worst it can act as an additional copy of your combo piece in the graveyard and retrievable with Crop Rotation in the face of a Surgical Extraction.

Thoughts?

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I considered that card a while back, but kind of discounted it as a little too slow and clunky. It's usually a minimum of two turns to get the combo back online since it soaks up your land drop. Colored mana sources are at a premium as it is in most versions and another colorless land slot comes with it's own issues unless you are cutting a non land for it. The Crop Rot example you mentioned plays through extraction anyway (putting a copy of the piece they are extracting into play) unless they also have another answer to the that particular attempt at the combo. Perhaps it's just some luck, but surgical hasn't been that big of a problem card in my experience.

Got 4th in the Legacy Challenge today.

Instead of a report, behold my replays!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJKW...JUA7b5MfGiTSXH

Noteworthy matches are Round 4, Quarters, and Semis.

Great videos-If you're particularly worried about miracles, I think bob is better than Library for your SB. As far as removal goes library gets wrecked by wear and tear, they tend to hit needle and library. Bob makes them use up swords.

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Originally Posted by DNSolver

Got 4th in the Legacy Challenge today.

Instead of a report, behold my replays!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJKW...JUA7b5MfGiTSXH

Noteworthy matches are Round 4, Quarters, and Semis.

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Congrats! I wish the videos were commented live, but I understand your set up isn't ideal.

One question: What made you decide to put the Expedition Maps back in? I thought you had cut most or all of them at one point. Or am I getting confused with someone else in this thread?

@DNSolver

Good vids, playing, and annotation pace. Keep 'em coming.
If you're interested in 12Post Decks to punish Miracles, may I suggest http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/27-09-16-ug-12-post/

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Originally Posted by DNSolver

Got 4th in the Legacy Challenge today.

Instead of a report, behold my replays!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJKW...JUA7b5MfGiTSXH

Noteworthy matches are Round 4, Quarters, and Semis.

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Hi, great videos! Actually I like replays more than regular stream because I can watch half of the videos during lunch break :).

One comment on R4: Your opponent deployed Counter+TOP and was tapped out and as you said, you will never resolve Pithing Needle. I think I would just bait Pithing needle, so he would activate Top, to clear a way for Vampire Hexmage. Or did you intend to use Pithing Needle as a bait for resolving Crop Rotation (if you would have drew it?).

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Originally Posted by Lio

Hi, great videos! Actually I like replays more than regular stream because I can watch half of the videos during lunch break :).

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There's definitely something to be said for that. However, in the replays you're missing a lot: mulligan decisions, sideboarding plans, and the exact thinking going on at crucial steps.

I find that watching a regular play video with the hand ready on the right arrow key to skip 5 seconds ahead during dull moments takes about as long and you get a lot more interesting information.

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Originally Posted by DNSolver

Got 4th in the Legacy Challenge today.

Instead of a report, behold my replays!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJKW...JUA7b5MfGiTSXH

Noteworthy matches are Round 4, Quarters, and Semis.

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Congrats again and thanks for the videos! The spot in game one of the semis where your miracles opponent drew with top with his own fetch activation on the stack in response to your well timed Crop Rotation, you knew he found an answer (or that would have been an insane bluff). Waiting a turn or two to try and draw a piece of interaction was probably the play imo. You immediately drew crop (which could have stopped Venser from bouncing ML), but he found the force.... so it wouldn't have changed the outcome in this case though.

Depths really did well in this tourney. It took 3 of the top 10 spots, finishing 4th, 6th, and 10th.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/tourname...0373278#online