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Mutavault comboes with Warchief too, gaining haste the turn you play it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
However, fish-ing up goblin just reduce the threat number and the effectiveness of Ringleader. It's not that great deal since it does near to nothing for the matchups we care of (anything non-storm).
I'm not saying it's good. I'm saying Mutavault isn't terrible. Even in non-blue Goblins, if you're running like a billion colorless lands, Mutavault is defendable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
ok so with that deck that took fifth at a 158 some man tourney????? Really.... ok so aside from the fact that well its just horrible it only runs two red sources for upwords of 16 red spells.... come on this is a serious thread, and a sceptical one at that! but still.....everyone else must of been playing 60 plains.dec like come on!
Guys, Beserk Stompy won that tourney, I think that says it all...
EDIT: And the landstill list that T8ed ran maindeck Quagnoth? Really?
I don't post here too often, but Goblins is the primary deck that I play. Just looking around for some information about what's hot in Shadowmoor. Here is my current list. I'm not necessarily asking for advice but I thought I might as well post it up anyway:
(28 essentials)
4 lackey
4 fanatic
4 piledriver
4 matron
4 warchief
4 ringleader
4 vial
(3 other things)
1 wort
1 siege-gang
1 kiki-jiki
(6 removal)
2 incinerator
4 weirding
(23 land)
8 fetch
4 wasteland
4 port
2 badland
5 mountain
(15 sideboard)
4 leyline
4 cabal therapy
4 chalice
1 goblin wizard
1 goblin king
1 goblin tinkerer
It's been said before, but Warren Weirding is the super card goblins has needed since thresh became dominant. Incinerator is great, but Weirding simply dominates the creatures that the deck has trouble dealing with: Tarmogoyf, Nimble Mongoose, Silver Knight. For the mirror, it is easily sideboarded out.
I think that black is a mandatory color in any goblin deck. Besides, it also adds Wort. Wort is probably better than Kiki-Jiki, fulfilling a similar role, except being able to get goblins from the graveyard rather than having to choose from those already in play. From my experience, when the game goes long enough to require a Wort/Kiki-Jiki, there usually arn't many goblins in play but plenty in the grave. Returned goblins can easily chump block and come back next turn.
One of the best things to do with Wort is to play an early Weirding, a turn 4 Wort, and then keep bringing back the Weirding for a soft lock that can surprise many decks. It also works with Incinerator. I will probably take out Kiki-Jiki because I almost always search for Wort given the opportunity.
A final great thing about Wort is that it's a 3/3 for 4 with fear. It can usually attack safely each turn, and it even survives pyroclasm. It's basically a complete upgrade from Kiki-Jiki.
Combo is one of the few decks that I fear without my sideboard. Just for the sake of completion, the last great thing about running black is that you can bring in discard on the sideboard to beat combo. You can also hardcast a leyline, even though that really doesn't matter.
I'm not too sure about running green though. I'm not sure how important Krosan Grip and Tin-street are, granted that I havn't tested them. I'll try them and see how it works, but I will say that my meta doesn't have any Rock decks and only rarely does it have a stax/stompy deck. Another slight advantage is that a 3-color deck would have access to a 3-point engineered explosives. Let's see... and I can't even think of any useful things that would be destroyed by that.
Any goblin deck that uses blue is bound to fail. Blue requires at least 10 slots to make it at all worthwhile, and that's 10 non-goblin cards. At this point, the goblin tribal synergy has been weakened. Every goblin card depends on there being more goblin cards in the deck. The goblins might as well be replaced by a creature strategy that is strong on its own. Slivers works alright because the creatures grow and are hard to kill. Threshold creatures also work great. At the point where the deck falls below 95% goblin, it should just be 0% goblin.
I think that there is one very important thing to remember when working on a variation to the goblin deck. The fundamental plan behind goblins is to disrupt the opponent's manabase while playing speedy threats through the vial, such as piledriver. Cards like Warchief and Ringleader are amazing, but they are NOT unique to the goblin tribe. Elves, for example, doesn't even have a warchief but they can probably speed out creatures even faster than goblins. Slivers has neither of those cards but their tribe remains competitive against goblins.
That said, I also think that goblins could become a force to be reckoned with in terms of combat potential. On paper, I am really liking the card bloodmark mentor. I know that it has been discussed, but I see this card as an immediate threat against any opposing creature deck. Aside from the obvious piledriver, it makes it so that your stray weenies can gang up and kill big stuff.
As a last note, on Mutavault, I like the card a lot. However, I don't think it's better than the land control suite. It looks a lot better in slivers (or in the SB against slivers).
Why in God's name would you only play 1 Siege-Gang Commander when you're running quad Weirding maindeck and have the best chances of connecting with a Lackey that you'll ever have? Kiki should be a Siege-Gang, and Wort should probably also be a Siege-Gang.
EDIT: Also, in what universe is Silver Knight still run?
Personally, I'd leave in Wort and cut one removal effect instead, but whatever. I agree 3 SGCs are the way to go.
For the SB, though, I don't see how Goblin Wizard can possibly be a good deal, and Goblin King seems just inferior to Mad Auntie. Regardless, you're fairly short on Engineered Plague answer; either you go heavy on the Crusade effects (at least 4-5, starting with Auntie and following up with Kings), or you add two Taigas and splash for Krosan Grip - which is the solution I favour.
Sadly don't have lotsa time for this ATM, but that's what I am currently running, to some not too shabby results. the onlu thing that really bugs me is Aggro Loam, I tried running md or sb some Stingscourgers but they were kinda meh. Not convinced about them... What do you suggest to fix Aggro Loam MU; more Weirding md ? edit : Agree with Nihil : wort is good, don't cut her ! :)Quote:
// Lands
2 [U] Taiga
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [UNH] Mountain
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [A] Badlands
// Creatures
1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
1 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
1 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan
4 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [US] Goblin Matron
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [TE] Mogg Fanatic
1 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie
// Spells
4 [DS] Ęther Vial
1 [MOR] Warren Weirding
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan
SB: 2 [MOR] Warren Weirding
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [U] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [AT] Goblin Tinkerer
SB: 1 [IA] Anarchy
Oh, and don't be too harsh on the sb thingie, it's ugly (extirpate/offalsnout/leyline I'm still not sure) but it works (well, mostly; Anarchy is really narrow and the 3 blasts aren't set in stone.
Oh, and, someone suggest me Artifact Mutation in the sb, playable, or bad idea ?
Hello everyone!
Would just like to ask what some of you think about the goblin Vexing Shusher. Has to be pretty damn good versus control decks since most of them (all?) runs blue = counters.
Goblin Lackey
Aether Vial
Maybe as a tutor target from the board.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TeenieBopper
I really don't see any of the new goblins worth while to add into the Legacy Version of the deck. The main deck is so tight right now, I can't see cutting anything to add a goblin thats only good in certain situations.
I could see maybe adding a target in the board for a tutor target, but the board is also very tight.
I agree with Tenniebopper, vial, lackey, and wasteland is more than enough against control.
Boartusk Liege maybe? Sure it costs one more than king and auntie... but it's also immune to smother and plagues. Two hate cards that are often played together. It also survives a lightning bolt.
First off, here's my quick opinions on the new cards.
Boartusk Liege is a little sub par. The deck should be changed to include additional red/green creatures, and probably goyf or some crap like that to make it worthwhile. The 1CCC mana cost is kind of hard to make especially considering it's only a 3/4 on its own. Trample is basically moot unless you get two of these in play which would be very rare.
The vexing shusher is alright but simply not needed in this deck. It would be much better in a storm deck actually. I would imagine it will see play in 1.X for sure, although I don't really follow that format.
After reworking this deck so many times I actually got to the point where I forgot about turn 1 lackey into a SGC. The main problem is that weirding still fails to guarantee a lackey connection if the opponent has stp, fow, daze, manlands, etc. In fact, weirding is rarely able to remove a blocking creature that mogg fanatic couldn't have taken care of already. However, i think that if i'm ready to consider something like bloodmark mentor or earwig squad, then i should go all-out and re-tool the deck for a much faster start.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Anyway, as an answer to your criticism, i chose to add weirding in the first place not as a way to get more lackeys connecting, but as a way to get rid of goyf and mongoose. SGC was originally at 3x but they were gradually replaced by kiki and then wort (when lorwyn released) as i changed the deck to give it more versatility and late-game potency. In fact, the only reason SGC was still in the deck was because it was a useful tool to have late game if my opponent has low life but lots of blockers or if they have a moat effect of some kind. It actually worked out on numerous occasions against random decks that I would otherwise lose to, such as ensnaring bridge, land deck with glacial chasm, dueling grounds, or ghostly prison.
Ok, so I was stretching with "silver knight", although I have faced it maindeck a number times in things like death and taxes, and some angel stompy (at least if i were playing angel stompy it would be in my deck). My overall philosophy is to create a versatile deck that refuses to utterly scoop against certain matchups, and I've seen far too many maindeck silver knights and even eplagues than i care to remember.
Granted, replacing wort/kiki with more SGC's would still give me the same matchups against those random decks. Anyway, I think I will increase the SGC count, but I will have much more trouble trying to fit in anything new from shadowmoor.
As for eplague answers, I think I'll be changing the SB to something like:
-1 goblin wizard
-1 goblin tinkerer
-1 goblin king
+3 mad auntie
I had liked the mountainwalk in the mirror but it is much too risky considering that they have gempalms. The regeneration of the auntie should more than make up for it anyway.
I think that I'll also be removing the cabal therapy and replacing it with kgrip or something to that effect. What do people think of using engineered explosives?
Yeah, but weirding essentially makes FoW/StP/Bolt the only outs against a turn one lackey by eliminating about half their options. It pretty much doubles your connection rate. Fanatic isn't going to kill Mishra's Factory, or Nimble Mongoose, or Tarmogoyf or any other number of one or two drop creatures that have an ass bigger than one. Neither is Gempalm Incinerator, for that matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malchar
All the benefits you listed for SGC are good enough to run multiple copies. The fact that it acts as Ringleader 5-7 against control decks is huge, too.
Oh yeah, 2004 called. It wants its shitty Kiki tech back. The card sucks. If you're going to tutor for Kiki to copy something, why the fuck wouldn't you just tutor for the card you were going to copy anyways? It's always going to be cheaper. And Jesus Fuck Christ, Kiki in a deck with eight colorless sources? My head hurts.
Mad Auntie is a fucking god awful answer to Engineered Plague/Pyroclasm. One Engineered Plague doesn't really bother me. It's easy enough to play through. Engineered Plague number two, however, basically causes you to scoop it up. Guess what? Mad Auntie does shit against multiple Plagues, and still dies to Pyroclasm.
I really like Engineered Explosives, however.
I have found that mad auntie by herself is not a good enough answer against decks packing plagues. It requires you to have 1 extra of her out for each plague past the first one. I've had 2 aunties out facing 2 plagues a few times, only to see one of them get taken out.
Goblins does not need a maindeck shusher. i agree one should go into the board but just one!!! black is sub-par to green u do not need threapy or mad auntie or wierding!!! wierding is bad. i have tried to play it against threshold they will counter it if relavant with spellsnare or force or even daze. it wont resolve unless they dont care about it, it slows you down a turn to tap 2 mana, and above that it is terrible. think about the fact when everyone played bolt or swords why did they play them bacause they were targeted. and could take care of THE problem creature. yes it is true i will board out tarfire in the threshold/goyf match for one pyromancer and one incinerator and a few REB, but that is the only time i dont like to see it and above that it is not bad at all.
...Quote:
Originally Posted by EternalDragon09
Maybe Weirding is bad because your deck is full of crap like Shock.Quote:
i will board out tarfire
I agree they will usually have the Force or Spell Snare (provided you didn;t play turn 1 Aether Vial or Lackey), but if you walk into Daze you should quit Legacy anyways.Quote:
Originally Posted by EternalDragon09
We had this discussion with him back on like page 52-53. He is just revisiting the same points, while refusing to listen to other people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightmare The Great
"Goblins is aggro, not control so trying to Edict every turn while good in some or most cases is just not fast enough" -EternalDragonQuote:
Originally Posted by bladewing019
Having the ability to remove a Mongoose to connect with a Lackey is huge. Being able to get rid of a Tarmogoyf or Tombstalker for 2 mana regardless of how many goblins you have down is amazing.
"wierding is bad. i have tried to play it..."(cut here for lawls)
Tried and failed(OH DANG!) I'm kidding mostly. I just think it's silly to have Tarfire over Weirding as a GoblinShock does so little. It's so underwhelming when you're winning, and even worse when losing.
"think about the fact when everyone played bolt or swords why did they play them bacause they were targeted."
I think that Pyrokinesis was played more often than Bolt because it could, for two cards and no mana, kill 1-4 creatures and dodge Daze and Spell Snare. Against Thresh, Bolt didn't kill Bear(pre-Goyf), but PK did. Swords was played because it didn't care about the size or color specifications of the creature, it looked for: is it targetable? and is it a problem? Swords is pretty much the best and cheapest removal spell that deals with a larger number of creatures than Bolt or PK. It has absolutely nothing to do with targetting...it's cheap and effective.
Weirding provides a tutor-able, Ringleader-able, Warcheif discountable removal spell that gives you the ability to kill any creature so long as it is the only one on the board. In the case of Thresh, all of their creatures are good...so being able to remove that shrouded Goose, fat-and-cheap Goyf, or big flier/TechCreatureX for 1B or B with a Cheif online is a very big deal. Throw a resolved Wort to the mix and your fear of Spell Snare simply goes away. Sure a resolved Counterbalance is lame, but that's why people also have at least 1 Gempalm I guess.
Black rocks. Green is a nice support too, but there's no reason not to go Rb with a hint of lime(GREEN!) for Grip and Hooligan and the occasional Ancient Grudge. If you disagree, just don't play it, but Tarfire is teh suxor imho. Shock doesn't stop Goyf or Goose. If I wanted to Shock my opponent everyturn, I'd use SGC.
I do agree that Shusher belongs in the board, not in the main. I dunno if I want just 1 or what though.