[OLD] UGr Threshold

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Originally Posted by frolll

Taliking about small semi-private events in Brussels and Wallonie... Well, I know in Flanders it's much more competitive. ;) Maybe I'll travel all the way to Antwerp someday, but not anytime soon, sadly...


I'll test the Swans build, since having a combo finish as an out against Zooish decks seems really really strong. And I just let go of the Counterbalance idea, since I don't want to run Moon Thresh nor Ugw ones. Thanks for advice, people. =)

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In my opinion, Counterbalance is quite important in the Swans-build since Swans are comparable to Sea Drake - they need to be protected, otherwise it sucks.
And Counterbalance-Top seems to be - at least as a 2/2 split - reasonable.

18 lands seem to be fine, but Nimble Mongoose really sucks sometimes since you reach Threshold very late. I'm running the constellation of the Hatfields with the single Portent as 5th Ponder, which seems to be a good idea since we need 2 combopieces which can be searched together with the CQ, but I might change it and run at least 3 Predict again since they generate CA and mill cards, making Mongoose slightly better.

It also compensates the problem of just running 17 lands.

This is what I came up with recently, I always took the Hatfield's Moonthresh as a base for "my" build:

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Volcanic Island
4 [A] Tropical Island
1 [A] Island (1)

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [SHM] Swans of Bryn Argoll
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose

// Spells
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [MM] Brainstorm
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [A] Lightning Bolt
4 [ON] Chain of Plasma
4 [NE] Daze
1 [TSP] Conflagrate
3 [OD] Predict

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [IA] Pyroclasm
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 [A] Red Elemental Blast

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Originally Posted by koba

I'm thinking of adding black to the list to add confidant instead of mongoose.

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Exactly what I have been testing since two days - Mongoose just never has Threshold making it a pretty bad blocker/beater. Black adds quite a lot in Dark Confidant (additional dig) and Thoughtseize (protection for Balance or Swans).

Here's my current list:

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/// Maindeck (60 cards)

// Lands (18)
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Polluted Delta
    3 Volcanic Island
    2 Tropical Island
    2 Underground Sea
    2 City of Brass
    1 Island

// Beaters (8)
    4 Tarmogoyf
    4 Swans of Bryn Argoll

// Card Advantage (15)
    4 Ponder
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Sensei's Divining Top
    4 Dark Confidant

// Permission (10)
    2 Thoughtseize
    4 Counterbalance
    4 Force of Will

// Burn (9)
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Chain of Plasma
    1 Lightning Storm

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The manabase is pretty stable as it is, especially since the two splashes are only very light ones. Also, the two City of Brass are better than one might think, props to the Hatfileds for coming up with this tech.
The 18 lands are just in for a test currently, I'll move back to 19 when I face problems in testing.

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Exactly what I have been testing since two days - Mongoose just never has Threshold making it a pretty bad blocker/beater. Black adds quite a lot in Dark Confidant (additional dig) and Thoughtseize (protection for Balance or Swans).

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On the other hand you add also some risks/disadvantages to the deck:

- Dark Confidant/Chain (Opponent can throw it back to Dark Confidant when you need to kill opponents creatures)
- Lifeloss; Top helps you but Swans, FoW, Cities and returned Chains of Plasma are looking risky, at least on paper.

Did you ever suffer from it in your testings yet?

Any one is testing UGR Threshold with Swans of Bryon Argoll?

Can any one say some thing about the testing ?

Im thinking in buying some Swans of Bryon Argoll for My UGR Threshold but I havent see any top 8 with a Threshold + Swans of Bryon Argoll

Do you think that this kind of Threshold can be competitive in the actual metagame or is better UGR tempo?

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Originally Posted by kiwi

Any one is testing UGR Threshold with Swans of Bryon Argoll?

Can any one say some thing about the testing ?

Im thinking in buying some Swans of Bryon Argoll for My UGR Threshold but I havent see any top 8 with a Threshold + Swans of Bryon Argoll

Do you think that this kind of Threshold can be competitive in the actual metagame or is better UGR tempo?

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Adding Swans to the deck isn't a bad idea. You just really need to get those lands down consistently if you want to power out the combo or have additional stall elements to wait it out. I think Confidant is awesome because he gets you extra lands and the pieces. Losing life here and there to get everything ready by turn 4 or 5 with protection backup is awesome.

I think I saw a list run 4 Goyf and 4 Swans. No Geese or Confidants. It also ran Pyroclasm to deal with the Goblin/aggro meta. I thought of how awesome Pyroclasm would be against Goblins with a Swan down. It's like a one sided Wrath that gives you 2 cards.

I tested swans and also played nightmare's build in a small tourney going 3-1-0 2nd place. I played against:

Goblins: killed him with swan beatdown both times.

Uwb Landstill: Magus of the Moon won one game. The other one I won through a Humility.

Belcher: Counters won. Swans played no role and boarded second game.

UGr Swanthresh: Stupid mirror match. He comboed me first game, then I kill him with swam beatdown. Third game he Goyfs me to death with me sitting on three nonthreshed Geese. I had to fucking Grip my Top to get threshold but he brainstormed for a Bolt.

You see, I killed with swan beatdown but not with the combo. Swans are quite effective beaters against some decks. Comparing to Dragon (and Enforcer) they are easier to cast, pitchable and not threshold dependent.

I think the reason that few Swanthresh decks made top8 so far is that we are still not have the correct build. As stated before Mongoose is not that good in this version of the deck.

My new build just splashes the combo to keep near the typical deck structure:

// Lands
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [R] Volcanic Island
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [UNH] Island
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [UNH] Forest
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [SHM] Swans of Bryn Argoll

// Draw
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [OD] Predict

// Protection
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [CS] Counterbalance

// Reach / Removal / "draw"
3 [AT] Lightning Bolt
3 [AP] Fire/Ice OR Magma Jet OR Pyroclasm (despite many people I like F/I)
2 [ON] Chain of Plasma

The landbase is oriented towards Blood Moon SB. You have a Forest and two Islands to cast every creature you play.

The deck is very draw heavy and the swan/chain combo also has no other aim but to draw cards. Draw 10-20 cards then drop land, Goyfs discard stuff and stick with a hand of counters. No need for fancy combo kills. Dropping Goyfs is kind of a combo if you ask me.

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Originally Posted by Shugyosha

I tested swans and also played nightmare's build in a small tourney going 3-1-0 2nd place.

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Nightmare built a SwanThresh list, where? The only ones to build Swanthresh-Deck so far were Nihil Credo, Der_imaginäre_Freund and me I think...

Anyways, it looks quite OK, congratz on the finish.

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Originally Posted by Shugyosha

I tested swans and also played nightmare's build in a small tourney going 3-1-0 2nd place. I played against:

Goblins: killed him with swan beatdown both times.

Uwb Landstill: Magus of the Moon won one game. The other one I won through a Humility.

Belcher: Counters won. Swans played no role and boarded second game.

UGr Swanthresh: Stupid mirror match. He comboed me first game, then I kill him with swam beatdown. Third game he Goyfs me to death with me sitting on three nonthreshed Geese. I had to fucking Grip my Top to get threshold but he brainstormed for a Bolt.

You see, I killed with swan beatdown but not with the combo. Swans are quite effective beaters against some decks. Comparing to Dragon (and Enforcer) they are easier to cast, pitchable and not threshold dependent.

I think the reason that few Swanthresh decks made top8 so far is that we are still not have the correct build. As stated before Mongoose is not that good in this version of the deck.

My new build just splashes the combo to keep near the typical deck structure:

// Lands
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [R] Volcanic Island
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [UNH] Island
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [UNH] Forest
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [SHM] Swans of Bryn Argoll

// Draw
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [OD] Predict

// Protection
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [CS] Counterbalance

// Reach / Removal / "draw"
3 [AT] Lightning Bolt
3 [AP] Fire/Ice OR Magma Jet OR Pyroclasm (despite many people I like F/I)
2 [ON] Chain of Plasma

The landbase is oriented towards Blood Moon SB. You have a Forest and two Islands to cast every creature you play.

The deck is very draw heavy and the swan/chain combo also has no other aim but to draw cards. Draw 10-20 cards then drop land, Goyfs discard stuff and stick with a hand of counters. No need for fancy combo kills. Dropping Goyfs is kind of a combo if you ask me.

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I like your list but I feel that you need to have 4bolt 4Chain as your burn spells. My list in testing right now is: -3 Predict +1 Swan, +1 Land (my landbase is somewhat different), and +1 Win Condition(I was even considering Inner Calm Outer Strength).


Edit:
I wasn't tired tonight and I stumbled onto the perfect win condition. More about this once I do some more testing. Give you a hint, its an echantment from the new set.

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Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore

I like your list but I feel that you need to have 4bolt 4Chain as your burn spells. My list in testing right now is: -3 Predict +1 Swan, +1 Land (my landbase is somewhat different), and +1 Win Condition(I was even considering Inner Calm Outer Strength).


Edit:
I wasn't tired tonight and I stumbled onto the perfect win condition. More about this once I do some more testing. Give you a hint, its an echantment from the new set.

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ugh, I guess I will reveal my current list then:

// Lands
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [R] Volcanic Island
2 [A] Island (1)

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
3 [SHM] Swans of Bryn Argoll
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [OD] Predict
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [B] Lightning Bolt
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [IA] Brainstorm
1 [TSP] Conflagrate
3 [ON] Chain of Plasma

This is pretty optimized I guess, I play the 3/3 split between Swans and Chains because 4 Swans are overkill and Chain of Plasma is a bad card alone.

Predict is soooo important since your landcount is low, it ensures you to draw lands when you need them. Additionally, it's mill-effect compensates the high permanentcount which makes Nimble Mongoose suck 8that's the problem Clemens had all the time). Predict compensates that AND the low landcount. Additionally, it has got a huge synergy with the rest of the deck, obv.

by the way, what Enchantment did you mean, Knollspine Invocation? You have to pay X and discard a card with converted mana X, so that means if you want to throw a Force of Will at your opponents head, you would have to pay 5 mana...

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Originally Posted by Adan

Nightmare built a SwanThresh list, where? The only ones to build Swanthresh-Deck so far were Nihil Credo, Der_imaginäre_Freund and me I think...

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Here is the link to Nightmares list. I played the Bird Ensemble (last of the lists) and managed to drop a CB turn and dodged wasteland Tropical screw by Goblins via Lotus Petals but still its a very bad topdeck so I'm playing more traditional thresh as listed in my post above.

@Gilmore: Yes I'm looking into adding the 4th Bolt for something, maybe I will cut a top. But I don't want to clog my mainboard up with combostuff so I play very few of them. I concur with Adan about the Predicts. You need them to draw the cards to win and to make Geese not suck.

@Chain of Plasma: The card is better than one might think. Few people care to discard a card to bolt you in return. Especially when you are able to re-copy it and/or counter it. Thats why I play so many burn right now. I use it as reach mostly.
But I admit that it mostly sucks when trying to kill a Goyf that just hugged your Goyf in combat.

Are you ready? are you guys really ready for this tech?

Wheel of Sun and Moon


Practically infinite force of Wills
infinite damage via lightning bolt
draw every card and never deck
stack your deck every turn


Did I mention that it also randomly hoses your worst matchup?

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Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore

Are you ready? are you guys really ready for this tech?

Wheel of Sun and Moon


Practically infinite force of Wills
infinite damage via lightning bolt
draw every card and never deck
stack your deck every turn


Did I mention that it also randomly hoses your worst matchup?

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Interesting, HG. You could stack your deck with this. Swan Combo into drawdeck...then end of turn, discard and stack your deck. You could have a hand of Chain, Goyf, Goyf, Force, Force, blue card, blue card to play Goyfs and have protection for the second round of hand filling. Or you could get all of your burn and go for the throat.

Interesting. I'd like to see it in action though. I don't know if it's better than LS or Conflag(win now or pwn in CA+CQ). I personally would stick to the win-now.

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Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore

Are you ready? are you guys really ready for this tech?

Wheel of Sun and Moon

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Shit, I really believed you would make a good suggestion. Got pranked.

But your idea is very good, but I see the following problem: You need GG as well as RRR to combo. And you are not winning instantaneously.

The question I am asking is, why would you increase the permanentcount of the deck with Wheel of Sun and Moon? If you enchant yourself you will never get threshold ever, which makes Nimble Mongoose suck. Design fail. The higher permanentcount in general makes Nimble Mongoose suck. So, if you can't play aggressively with Nimble Mongoose, the build itself loses a lot of flexibility. Design fail...

Don't get me wrong, the idea is indeed good, but Wheel of Sun and Moon is a rather dead card in general. And after some testings, I don't really like it as a hoser for the Ichorid matchup, Leyline of the Void seems to be better because it can get online on Turn 0, while Wheel of Sun and Moon only gets online Turn 2. you would need to be on the play, with the Ichorid player going to EOT discard. THEN it would be good. But I still don't really like it.

What is better to include in the side board (in a random metagame) Trygon Predator or Krosan Grip?

Krosan Grip

Pros:
-Destroy counterbalance, Split Second..

Trygon Predator

Pros:
-It does damage and destroys one artifact or enchantment each turn.
Slops:
-When you play Trygon Predator you have to wait one turn for starting to destroy artifacts or creatures,.
-Obviously is weaker than an instant with split second, trygon predator can be countered or killed by swords to plowshares or lightning bolts.
-He is ability isn't and instant you can destroy mishra factories or including in some situatios The abyss.


What's better in a random metagame?

K grip>tygron when playing against: landstill(humility,etc), belcher,countertop decks,faery stompy (tygron is no longer evasive) dreadnought decks,aluren

k.grip=tygron survival?,affinity...

tygron>grip: Dragon stompy, white stax & loam perhaps?

I run 3 grip/ 2 predator split in my standard tempo build (haven't incorporated the combo yet by the way)

Since krosan is more versatile and has instant assured effect i would run it over the predator which is just a tech against DS and stax mainly (a very good one though)

Predator's biggest strength is against countertop.

Also, Predator is a flying threat against Landstill.

Yes but landstill
1) has many ways to deal with it stp/Fow/Counter/creature removal
2) you need to destroy imediately pernicious deed/eplosives before activation to safe your goyf
3) It won't destroy humility

whereas with the grip can't even be countered
predator is potentially good against DS and stax BECAUSE they will not be able to get rid of him easilly and most of their deck is based on artifacts or enchantments thus landing more of them in table (predator hits more than once).

Against countertop is where predator is better than what I thought at first, but notice that grip will destroy the top more efficiently aswell

testing against aggro loam predator has proven to be fairly superior to gripsince you will always take away a mox + chalice or moons if they board them in.

Trygon Predator was a great tech by goobafish, Clemens and I simply copy-pasted it because it seemed to make sense here in our meta (Stax, Stax, Stax, Affinity, Survival, Mirrors...), but after all, Krosan Grip seems to be more versatile.

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Originally Posted by Adan

Shit, I really believed you would make a good suggestion. Got pranked.

But your idea is very good, but I see the following problem: You need GG as well as RRR to combo. And you are not winning instantaneously.

The question I am asking is, why would you increase the permanentcount of the deck with Wheel of Sun and Moon? If you enchant yourself you will never get threshold ever, which makes Nimble Mongoose suck. Design fail. The higher permanentcount in general makes Nimble Mongoose suck. So, if you can't play aggressively with Nimble Mongoose, the build itself loses a lot of flexibility. Design fail...

Don't get me wrong, the idea is indeed good, but Wheel of Sun and Moon is a rather dead card in general. And after some testings, I don't really like it as a hoser for the Ichorid matchup, Leyline of the Void seems to be better because it can get online on Turn 0, while Wheel of Sun and Moon only gets online Turn 2. you would need to be on the play, with the Ichorid player going to EOT discard. THEN it would be good. But I still don't really like it.

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Let me give you the run down on how I make it work.

1.You cast Swan
2. You cast Chain durring your OPPONENT'S turn drawing almost every card in your deck (you must have Wheel)
3. take your turn and play wheel of sun and moon, along with a land and whatever else while keeping 1R open
4. Discard all but 3Fow, 3 Blue cards, and Chain (stack your deck with the discarded cards.
5. Cast chain durring your opponents upkeep with 3x Fow backup

Rinse and repeat.

You can kill via infinite bolts or simply with beats. Its a hard lock practically. Just watch out for Krosan Grip post board (And if you were smart your boarded out the combo anyway for Blood moon and REBS)

With 2RR up durring your opponents turn you can counter any number of cards up to the ammount of life you have left and the number of blue cards in your deck, you can respond to each copy of Chain by FoW something and putting it on the bottom only to draw it again. You will also be able to Draw the orignal chain of plasma off of the copies.

I wasn't joking this is actually good and provides for so so many ways to abuse it.

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Originally Posted by Adan

Shit, I really believed you would make a good suggestion. Got pranked.

But your idea is very good, but I see the following problem: You need GG as well as RRR to combo. And you are not winning instantaneously.

The question I am asking is, why would you increase the permanentcount of the deck with Wheel of Sun and Moon? If you enchant yourself you will never get threshold ever, which makes Nimble Mongoose suck. Design fail. The higher permanentcount in general makes Nimble Mongoose suck. So, if you can't play aggressively with Nimble Mongoose, the build itself loses a lot of flexibility. Design fail...

Don't get me wrong, the idea is indeed good, but Wheel of Sun and Moon is a rather dead card in general. And after some testings, I don't really like it as a hoser for the Ichorid matchup, Leyline of the Void seems to be better because it can get online on Turn 0, while Wheel of Sun and Moon only gets online Turn 2. you would need to be on the play, with the Ichorid player going to EOT discard. THEN it would be good. But I still don't really like it.

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I guess I cant assume that you can grasp the combo intuitively, let me break it down step by step:

1.You cast Swan
2. You cast Chain durring your OPPONENT'S turn drawing almost every card in your deck (you must have Wheel)
3. Take your turn and play wheel of sun and moon, along with a land and whatever else while keeping 1R open
4. Discard all but 3Fow, 3 blue cards, and Chain (stack your deck with the discarded cards.
5. Cast chain durring your opponent's upkeep with 3x Fow backup

Rinse and repeat.

You can kill via infinite bolts or simply with beats. Its a hard lock practically. Just watch out for Krosan Grip post board (And if you were smart your boarded out the combo anyway for Blood moon and REBS)

With 2RR up durring your opponents turn you can counter any number of cards up to the ammount of life you have left and the number of blue cards in your deck, you can respond to each copy of Chain by FoW something and putting it on the bottom only to draw it again. You will also be able to draw the orignal chain of plasma off of the copies.

I wasn't joking when I said that this is actually good. There are so so many ways to abuse it.

Adan:

• Hosing ichorid with Wheel is just a bonus. And I dare to say that anyone who plays Layline over Crypt in the board of threshold is an idiot.
• If you cant get threshold by the time you hit 4-6 mana you fail on every level including knowing when to muligan. Not to mention that even with zero cards in the yard you can get to thresh before casting wheel of sun and moon if you go off the way I just specified.
• :g::g: is never and issue if you do it the way I described, all you need is one G the turn before you go off so that by droping a second green source the following turn with 40+ cards in hand you can easily resolve it.
• "The higher permanent count alone makes Nimble Mongoose suck" <-just a note-> Moon thresh has more permanents.