[Deck] Dragon Stompy

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Originally Posted by Guy I Don't Know

I would say that that CotV for 0 would be the correct play, the reason being if he is tapped out, he may not be able to pay for a spell and then in response LED.

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What do you mean? TES is a sorcery based combo deck, they will never respond to Chalice by saccing their LED, and dropping a LED in response is impossible.
If you mean they will never be able to play LED again that is true. But they will go Burning Wish - Shattering Spree and combo off in your face (which they will also do with CotV1 but that takes another Red Mana from their side, usually nailing you another turn). TES has so many ways of winning. Last time I played I had Chalice 1, Chalice 0 and they went off with 3 Cabal Rituals into Infernal Tutor, IGG, Tendrils

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Originally Posted by Guy I Don't Know

Usually if a TES player is psyched about a hand they have 3-4 Rite of Flames (just because it is cool to have multiples) or double LEDs. Double LEDs are so good because you can wish or tutor for ill-gotten gains and then gains and then search again and basically tutor plus 2 LEDs wins. I would never be psyched about a hand with cantrips. Cantrips are just ok.

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The chance of double LEDs, is also, very small. Dropping Chalice of 0 (again: locking out any future Moxen or Gathan Raiders) just because you fear double LEDs is not a valid reason. But I agree that a hand which has them 'psyched' could justify you dropping Chalice 0 because Chrome Mox and Petal are also in their deck.

You should always be wary of players who are faking though. :)

Chalice for zero is better against TES than Chalice for one. TES is huge in my metagame and I can say this with confidence. Chalice for zero + Moon = no black, blue, green, or white mana unless they play Manamorphose.

TES has 12 zero costers, Chrome Mox, Lotus Petal, and LED.

TES has 18-20 one costers, Rite of Flame, Dark Ritual, Brainstorm, Ponder, and Orim's Chant. However, Rite and Ritual are the only two that create mana, whereas all the zero costers make mana. LED is almost essential for a Tendrils kill, whereas Rite of Flame and Dark Ritual are not as necessary.

Ideally, you'd have Chalice at zero and one, but if you only have one Chalice, zero is better IMO.

Yes, I said, Chalice at 0 is better with a Blood Moon, obviously. But Chalice at 1 can be the right play. It cuts of cantrips, giving you time to win. It also gives a much larger chance of knocking out more cards in their hand. With only a LED, they're not going to win.

And about the Tendrils kill. Most DS players don't run Pyroclasm in the sideboard and the ETW kill is just as deadly.

Ow and TES is a big 'part of my metagame' as well. I play DS vs TES at least twice or three times a day. So what's the point, really.

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Originally Posted by Kuma

Chalice for zero is better against TES than Chalice for one. TES is huge in my metagame and I can say this with confidence. Chalice for zero + Moon = no black, blue, green, or white mana unless they play Manamorphose.

TES has 12 zero costers, Chrome Mox, Lotus Petal, and LED.

TES has 18-20 one costers, Rite of Flame, Dark Ritual, Brainstorm, Ponder, and Orim's Chant. However, Rite and Ritual are the only two that create mana, whereas all the zero costers make mana. LED is almost essential for a Tendrils kill, whereas Rite of Flame and Dark Ritual are not as necessary.

Ideally, you'd have Chalice at zero and one, but if you only have one Chalice, zero is better IMO.

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Look at it like this, TES depends on casting LED and a bunch of rituals to win. The deck contains the following:

12 :0: cost cards
20 1cc cards
8 2 cc cards

The decks needs to be able to cast the 2cc cards (Infernal Tutor/Burning Wish) to win. I would drop a chalice for 0 then if you can drop a Chalice for 2, then they can't cast wish to get an answer. If its game 2 then go Chalice for 0 and chalice for 1 because TES sides in the Shattering Spree and doesn't wish for it.

So yes chalice for zero is way better than chalice for one.

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Originally Posted by Sacearuse

If its game 2 then go Chalice for 0 and chalice for 1 because TES sides in the Shattering Spree and doesn't wish for it.

So yes chalice for zero is way better than chalice for one.

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I disagree with the notion to to set chalice at one because they side in Shattering Spree. The replicated copies aren't countered by chalice.

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Originally Posted by Mayk0l

Yes, I said, Chalice at 0 is better with a Blood Moon, obviously. But Chalice at 1 can be the right play. It cuts of cantrips, giving you time to win. It also gives a much larger chance of knocking out more cards in their hand. With only a LED, they're not going to win.

And about the Tendrils kill. Most DS players don't run Pyroclasm in the sideboard and the ETW kill is just as deadly.

Ow and TES is a big 'part of my metagame' as well. I play DS vs TES at least twice or three times a day. So what's the point, really.

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Well, if their hand is full of one costers and no zero costers, then yeah, Chalice at one is better. But you have no way of knowing what their hand contains until they dump it on the board. I think Chalice at zero buys you more time than Chalice at one because Chant does very little to the DS player, and Brainstorm/Ponder lets them dig, but the spells they dig into could be stopped by Chalice at zero, so it's not like Chalice at zero is dead vs Brainstorm/Ponder.

Maybe this springs from the fact that I run 4 Pyroclasm in my 'board at the moment, I dunno. :tongue:

Could you enlighten me to when you cast Chalice at one? What do you have to see in your hand or from the TES player to cast it?

Saceruse makes a good point about Chalice usage. Zero and two shuts TES down game one. I guess it depends on the TES list and how many Shattering Sprees they run for games two and three.

Chalice@0 blocks LED and some marginal acceleration, whereas Chalice@1 blocks their Cantrips, Chant and acceleration. Blocking LED is very good, but keeping them of their Cantrips and 2 good acceleration spells isnt bad either. I would actually cast Chalice@Zero if I was able to cast some moon effect, which shuts down Cantrips, Dark Ritual and Chant as well. Without Moon to me Chalice 1 seems superior.

Chalice@1 is worse than Chalice@0, because when Chalice@0 is on the board I can still resolve artifacts for Storm count at no cost, but when Chalice@1 is on the board I can't resolve anything for Storm with out paying for it. The risk of being blown out by double LED is very small, the only reason you'd Chalice@0 is if you had another lock you could resolve on the same turn.

Chalice@1 also makes TES expend more resources to remove it with Shattering Spree.

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Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

I disagree with the notion to to set chalice at one because they side in Shattering Spree. The replicated copies aren't countered by chalice.

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I know this, what I mean is chalice for 1 is better post board because then you stop more excel. Chalice for two, after you have a chalice for 0, is nice pre board because they can't wish for the Spree. Either way CotV for 0 is always the best to drop first.

Always try to go for Chalice for one first. This WILL slow them down. At 0, they can still build up a lot of storm and cats EtW for a bunch of tokens. At one, this will stop cantrips, chant, and rit/rite. Much harder for TES to go off with chalice at one. Of course, if you have Moon or something, go for 0.

Na the plan is Chrome Mox pitching a red card, then you drop a tomb or city followed by chalice of the void for 0 and a Moon (Magus or Blood). That shuts them off for the time being unless they have force of will to stop you.

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Originally Posted by mercenarybdu

Na the plan is Chrome Mox pitching a red card, then you drop a tomb or city followed by chalice of the void for 0 and a Moon (Magus or Blood). That shuts them off for the time being unless they have force of will to stop you.

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... You seriously make no sense every time you post. We are talking about storm combo and what to set Chalice at. What storm combo decks play FoW? And you just repeated what I said. If you have other disruption, like Moon, then go for Chalice at 0.

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Originally Posted by Jak.

... You seriously make no sense every time you post. We are talking about storm combo and what to set Chalice at. What storm combo decks play FoW? And you just repeated what I said. If you have other disruption, like Moon, then go for Chalice at 0.

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Byrant would have a FoW, he always has the cards he needs to win with that deck...o course he cheats but it's Byrant so it's ok...:tongue:

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Originally Posted by Sacearuse

Either way CotV for 0 is always the best to drop first.

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No it's not, I've won more games because the opponent dropped Chalice of the Void for 0 instead of Chalice of the Void for 1 than I can recall. If you're playing Blue/Red Stompy and you Chalice of the Void for 0 with out a reason, you've misplayed your lock piece.

Trust me, City of Brass, Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, countered artifacts -> Empty the Warrens still gets the job done.

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

Trust me, City of Brass, Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, countered artifacts -> Empty the Warrens still gets the job done.

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I can attest to this.

Chalice-1 Versus Chalice-0 against storm depends on your hand and what you have to do with your mana acceleration.

Let's face it. TES can go off with either one on the board. And sometimes you're just going to guess wrong. There's still a right decision, though, based on knowing nothing but your own hand and to a degree, your opponent's deck.

To determine what to do, you need to keep in mind the following two points:

1. More often than not, Chalice for 1 is stronger against TES than Chalice for 0.
2. What else could you be doing with the two extra mana it would take you to make that Chalice be for 1 instead of 0?

Take the following hand:

Mountain
Chrome Mox
Ancient Tomb
Gathan Raiders
Rakdos Pit Dragon
Simian Spirit Guide
Chalice of the Void

With this hand against TES, I'd lead Tomb, Mox imprinting Raiders, pitch SSG, Pit Dragon, Chalice for 0.

Why? Because I've got my opponent on a ridiculous clock with this hand. My entire hand at this point will be Mountain, and barring something awful like topdecking a Slogger, my opponent's going to die at ludicrous speeds while having to deal with a Chalice for 0. Probable worst case scenario, my opponent drops a turn one ETW. I still actually have a chance to outrace him with just the Dragon if I get a Song.

Change the hand up a little. Just one card. Make it look like:

Mountain
Chrome Mox
Ancient Tomb
Gathan Raiders
Arc-Slogger
Simian Spirit Guide
Chalice of the Void

Now I'd lead Tomb, Chalice for 1, and pass. I can't drop a mammoth threat on turn one, so I'm not going to. The best I could do is drop the Raiders, flip him next turn, and have my opponent on pace to die on turn five barring bad draws.

But I can do that anyway with the Slogger and have the stronger Chalice. In all likelihood, I'm going to drop a Slogger on turn two, putting him on a three turn clock to get rid of the Chalice and combo out. So he's still going to die on turn five unless he does something.

Also, another interesting point is that if your opponent boards in Shattering Spree, Chalice for 0 becomes stronger because you aren't committing any mana to it and commit your mana to dropping threats and decreasing the amount of time your opponent has to kill you.

On the second hand, might it not be better to go Tomb, Mox, Imprint Slogger, drop the Chalice at 2? Sure, it's not cutting off any mana, but it is cutting off the absolutely key Burning Wishes and Infernal Tutors. Then, next turn, you can follow up with Raiders morphed, and no matter what you draw in the next turns, you can be sure to be swinging with a 5/5.

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Originally Posted by Ozymandias

On the second hand, might it not be better to go Tomb, Mox, Imprint Slogger, drop the Chalice at 2? Sure, it's not cutting off any mana, but it is cutting off the absolutely key Burning Wishes and Infernal Tutors. Then, next turn, you can follow up with Raiders morphed, and no matter what you draw in the next turns, you can be sure to be swinging with a 5/5.

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That is 3 mana...

Chalice at 2 is good, but it most likely won't happen often.

Sorry, I know I meant to put "pitch SSG" in there somewhere.

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Originally Posted by Ozymandias

Sorry, I know I meant to put "pitch SSG" in there somewhere.

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You got it, barring 3xETW, Chalice of the Void at 2 is game set match pre-board.