You only have 15 folks to 4 Adepts. I think that is very extreme.
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You only have 15 folks to 4 Adepts. I think that is very extreme.
Honestly it looks like a deck you just pooped out without trying at all. You have only 19 lands but are expecting to use a heavy control build (6 of them colorless). I can tell you haven't playtested this enough because you have 3 o-rings. That's a card that is so slow I wouldn't ever run more than 2... and so anti-synergetic with this deck that I wouldn't run any. Being non-blue is a huge problem when you don't want to FoW with your creatures.Quote:
Originally Posted by _erbs_
In addition you run 4 Swords to plowshares while running Phyrexian Dreadnaught. I don't know about you, but when I get a 12/12 trampler on the field I couldn't really give a shit about someone's goyf.
11 non-creature blue cards total makes FoW a lot more detrimental to your game than helpful, especially when you took out the only real card advantage in the deck that was found in Standstill...
OK I am back from the tourney (32 ppl) ah well and it didnt went too good. I will post a detailed report later in the evening when I am back from work.
Anyway a lot of fishes where floating around. I saw at least 3 other ppl with Merfolks and each list with major differences. I think the best came out third (with Jitte main). Myself I was dragged down into the swamp again, although I had a lot of very very close matchups that could have turned out differently. Matchups: Survival (win 2:1), GoyfSligh (loose 1:2, quite close), Landstill (loose 1:2, very very close but this was the decisive matchup that put me into the "bad matchup bracket"), The Rock (had 3 exciting games, the third we couldnt finish anymore, so draw), MBC (2 games where my opponent quite confidently could establish board control after some early beats from myself and then hit me with black montrosities).
Perhaps one side note on Daze: NOBODY except The Rock guy (which seemed kind of inexperienced with the Merfolk build) I played against ran into Daze. Every other opponent was cunning enough to play around it, which is actually good because it slows them down but which gives you the personal impression that Daze is just totally doing NOTHING in your hand. I am really thinking about cutting it to maybe substitude it by Negate/Spell Snare because anyone is anticipating you are playing Daze anyway. So why not build on the anticipation and then surprise them?
@ erbs: IN addition to what Phoenix said. Jitte and Dreadnought? I'd rather focus on one solution. Either you run Nought and dedicate some more SB love to him or you run Jitte and maximize it by playing enough creatures to equip it with. Jitte on Dreadnought is surely fun but not recommended.
Hello
yes i've never tested the deck ive posted i just want to hear out your comments, thanks on the heads up.
I know standstill + muta vualt + aether vial is a good combo but, i just want to try if i could control the mana via ports, stifles and wastelands
If i ran standstill im forced to run muta vaults thus giving me 9-10 colorless mana which is very bad. Im guessing muta vualts are good in this deck cause his a merfolk aswell giving you more or less a 3/3 to 4/4 additional beater
Having no anti creature control at all i think is abit hard. Is psionic blast a bad choice for this deck ?
I finished 45th at the Grand Prix (11-4) with only one bye. It was a lot of fun playing in the event with over 1200 players. I played the following deck:
Creatures:
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejery
2 Wakethrasher
2 Vendillion Clique
Spells:
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Echoing Truth
4 Standstill
4 Aether Vile
2 Relic of progenitus
Lands:
12 Island
4 Wasteland
4 Mutavault
Sideboard:
2 Annul
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Blue elemental blast
1 Relic of progenitus
3 Back to basics
2 Threads of disloyalty
2 Pithing needle
The Vendilion cliques were a last minute addition and were invaluable throughout the tournament. They allow you to fight though cards like engineered plague and moat; they can ambush a trygon predator; work well with echoing truth and can improve your own card quality if needed.
The main deck relics were the right call for the gp. They are too slow to fight against dredge but are great against loam and threshold shinking goyfs and geese.
The 4th mutavault was excellent. My manabase was never really a problem and the added advantage of having more mutavaults in the mirror allowed me to win that match.
I will probably write a tourney report later.
Pretty impressive, Lucky. Vendillion Clique is a really cool card that I had guessed did not belong in this deck. But with what you say I think I need to rethink it.
I noticed a lot of people not playing Stifle in the main of this deck. I tend to think that its value is generally under appreciated, and often game-breaking. Did you play only a few decks packing fetchlands?
Hi,Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
I've read in the begining of this thread that the deck used to have rishadan ports, after reading several pages i got bored sorry if the discussion was somewhere in there.
Why was rishadan port cut ?
Grimoire Thief i think is a good card aswell why was it cut ?
Im assuming that the 1st page is updated of the current merfolk deck list
thanks
I tested 3 stifle in the main and realized that most people play around it if they see one island open. I also wanted to tap out in the early turns and thought that echoing truth would improve my tempo, hence the lack of stifle.
I think you need at least 12 islands in the deck to reliably see one in your opening hand. Wasteland has more synergy with back to basics as the only way you have to untap the port with the enchantment in play is merrow reejery's triggered ability. I also really wanted to run 4 mutavaults to be aggressive.Quote:
Why was rishadan port cut ?
I never tested the thief. I can't really comment on it.Quote:
Grimoire Thief i think is a good card aswell why was it cut ?
A grizzly bear with an underwhelming ability (only beats combo) who has no evasion without a lord, and costs double blueskis.Quote:
Originally Posted by _erbs_
Sincere compliments, luckymartyr. That result is very, very impressive.
And for the stifle issue, I'm beginning to think too that it's generally a card that's pretty much expected to be played by merfolks, so the opponent will crack fetchlands more wisely playing around it. The same, of course, for cracking mass removals et similia. In few words:stifle is foreseen by everyone, and everyone has learnt how to avoid it, making it way less powerful, and perhaps more situational.
So I'd wanted to know what do you think about a potential card in the stifle spots, which could really compensate some of the Folks' weaknesses:Spell Snare. It would be a clever inclusion for several reasons: obviously, because it shuts up many things that could really hurt us: goyf, Devastating Dreams,Grunt, Counterbalance, Survival,EE@2, CotV@1,Keg, and even Dark Confidant come to mind; furthermore, the developing of the odiern metagame and the (few) knowledge other-decks players tend to have about merfolks could make spell snare a "surprise" card, which they absolutely don't expect to come. These are just some speculations, I sincerely admit that I haven't tested the card yet, but on the paper it may have some serious potential. And i want to be clear when i say that it's not tht stifle has lost its power, but it's simply that everyone now is prepared to dodge it, which isn't etremely difficult for a high-level toruney-attending pilot.
Stifle could be also included as a Sb tech, and just be sided in when the opponent is fully convinced that you don't play it. Or again heavy mass removals-"many fetches" decks, such as 4c landstill or similia.
p.s: Has anyone taken into account that odd list of Fae-folks of that guy who made top16 ( i believe)? It has done 10-0 day 1. It must be incredibly good, or he was just very lucky ( but i don't believe so).
That also accounts for Daze. Ppl tend to play around it.Quote:
Originally Posted by luckymartyr
Except for the tap out parts and the tempo parts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nekrataal
So, I played in the GP this weekend. My overall record was 6-3-0, just narrowly missing my chance to play in Day Two... and also my chance to comfortably pay for my speeding ticket I got getting there... :mad:
Anyways, here's my list:
4 Cursecatcher
2 Tidal Warrior
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
2 Wake Thrasher
(20 Critters)
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Aether Vial
4 Standstill
EDIT: 3 Stifle
(19 Non-Creature Spells)
13 Islands
4 Wasteland
4 Mutavault
SIDEBOARD:
3 Back to Basics
3 Pithing Needle
3 Echoing Truth
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Threads of Disloyalty
...Let me see if I can remember all my match-ups... Unfortunately, the notepad I had was TINY, so I didn't write down as many notes as I would have liked to (Pastimes, your free notepads S-U-C-K)
HERE ARE THE MATCHES I WON:
VS. Team America
VS. 4-Color Landstill
VS. Aggro-Loam (RGB)
VS. Dredge
VS. Dragon Stompy
VS. 'Goyf-Sligh
HERE ARE THE MATCHES I LOST:
VS. Counter-Slivers (wtf? Thanx, first-round match-up)
VS. 4-Color Aether Vial "Fish-esque" Creature Janky Homebrew (UGBW list with main-deck Jitte, 'Goyf, Meddling Mage, Dark Confidant, Swords to Plowshares, Aether Vial, etc... AND Engineered Plague out of the SB. UGH.)
VS> Vial Goblins (No big surprise there, I think this match-up is about 80/20 in their favor. I literally got rolled.)
*So, as you can see, I won some match-ups I was definitely NOT favored in, such as Dredge, 'Goyf-Sligh, Aggro-Loam, etc.
*Notice a pattern yet??? ALL THE MATCHES I LOST WERE AGAINST OTHER DECKS THAT SOUGHT TO EXPLOIT AETHER VIAL. ALL OF THEM.
Overall, I'm happy with how I did, and I had a lot of fun, although I wish I had gotten some re-compensation for all the money I spent on the deck and the trip up to Chicago from Mississippi.
HERE ARE SOME NOTES AND THOUGHTS ON MY BUILD:
*Tidal Warrior is TEH NUTZ. Over the course of the nine matches I played, I used this little dude to color-screw my opponents hard, get extra blue mana to play Lord of Atlantis >> Standstill off two Islands, a Wasteland, and a Mutavault, and to Islandwalk for the win with Wake Thrasher. I saw folks "waste" Force of Will AND Swords to Plowshares against Tidal Warrior, and I'm convinced it may actually have been the situationally right play for them. HE'S JUST THAT GOOD. TRY HIM, YOU'LL LIKE HIM. (This is probably over-valuing him by a bit, but I'm even considering a three/three split between him and Cursecatcher.)
*21 lands was probably one or two too many. I made a last minute change to the deck and bumped Relic to the SB (no regrets there, although not sure if my two Jittes were the right cut to make to the SB), and added the fourth Mutavault (also no regrets) and the 13th Island (probably superfluous.) In retrospect, I got mana flooded slightly a couple of games. I don't think there was any example where it lost me the match, but I felt that my land draws were overly consistent, if that makes any sense.
*I'm super-glad I did a two/two split on Relic and Crypt in the sideboard, because Crypt probably saved my ass completely in the Dredge match-up.
*I'm not entirely sure main-deck Stifles are necessary, as other people have been commenting on. I mostly felt that once my opponents got the sense what I was playing, they knew to play around Stifle if at all possible. Also, given the choice between playing a first-turn creature or Aether Vial, and keeping mana open for Stifle, I would almost always choose the creature or the Vial. It could be a fine sideboard option, but I wonder what decks it really flat-out hoses coming in from the sideboard...
*On the other hand, I disagree that Daze is weak. I ran four, and was generally happy with it, although I think three may be the correct number. The problem with Daze is obviously if you draw it late game, it tends to do nothing. Also, if you're on the draw, it's not nearly as powerful. Thanks to some good advice (Matthias, good lookin' out), I sideboarded out Daze in about 90% of the games where I was on the draw, and it worked out well.
*Another Merfolk player who made Day Two, and who I compared lists with, was running three main-deck Repeal. This seems to me like a sweet piece of tech. This guy didn't run any Echoing Truth side or main, which I think I would still squeeze into the sideboard (because E-Truth OWNS Tombstalker, Elspeth tokens, and maybe most importantly, Dredge) but he told me that Repeal had been amazing for him. I think that given the fact that Stifle is getting to be well-known tech for the Merf deck, Repeal is a strong candidate to replace Stifle. It's perhaps less effective in hindering the opponent's early game development, but I think it yields an even greater tempo advantage than Stifle, and is less likely to be a dead card against big portions of the meta. AND IT CANTRIPS. I haven't tested this yet, but the guy using it was clearly a good player, and he told me it had been amazing for him. He also told me he wished he had Tidal Warriors, since he hadn't been able to find any copies to fit into his deck... So I know from that he's a sensible type of dude.
*Engineered Plague fucking OWNS this deck. I was able to win matches against folks who were using it, but those were usually hard-fought games. And if someone gets two out against you, it pretty much locks Merfolk out of the game. I think Vendilion Clique could be a decent option, either main-deck or sideboard, to give us a clock against decks packing E-Plague. Other than diversifying our creature base, I can't think of any answer that Blue has against E-Plague (don't tell me "counterspell it, Captain Obvious, because this isn't always an option). Oftentimes bounce isn't enough because E-Plague prevents your creatures from staying on the board, so it's not like you can bounce it and swing FTW under most normal circumstances, unless you're holding a preponderance of Mutavaults on the table and have the extra mana sitting around to bounce, then activate your 'Vaults (not fucking likely).
*One more thing: I second the idea that we should try out Spell Snare. It's a phenomenal card, and there are a LOT of two-drops that go a long way towards wrecking our plans ('Goyf, Counterbalance, Jitte, Bob, Meddling Mage, Devastating Dreams, Burning Wish, Pyroclasm, opposing Standstill in decks better positioned to exploit it, etc. etc.)
*ANYWAYS, PLEASE GET AT ME WITH QUESTIONS, FEEDBACK, PATS ON THE BACK, WAGS OF THE FINGER, ETC. ETC. ETC.
*Also, I just want to say this, to all the wankers I overheard bitching about the format: LONG LIVE LEGACY. THE FACT THAT IT IS A DIVERSE, UNPREDICTABLE FIELD IS A POSITIVE, NOT A NEGATIVE FACTOR. DON'T BITCH JUST BECAUSE THE META-GAME IS SO LARGE AND UNPREDICTABLE, BECAUSE YOU'RE ONLY PROVING TO EVERYONE THAT YOU'RE A TOOL-BAG WHO GETS NO ENJOYMENT OUT OF PLAYING THE GAME, YOU JUST WANT TO HAVE NO SURPRISES AND ALWAYS WIN. WHICH IS LIKE THE ANTITHESIS OF FUN.
I personally went 5-3, seeing 3 goblins across the table from me on day 1. upon retrospect, I would drop stifle completely, move jittes back to the sb, and maindeck back to basics. It won me 3 of my 5 matches entirely on its own. I'd probably also maindeck a few spellsnares or some bounce. I would also switch my wasteland / mutavault count to 3/4 respectively.
A disappointing weekend all in all. Though I wasn't surprised to play against goblins, playing three on day one kept me from making day two without a doubt. Ah well, the deck ran solid, and I don't regret playing it. It also doesn't help that one of my teammates had his bag stolen.
I had a similar experience, although Slivers and Four-Color Jank were much closer match-ups than Goblins was, so I suppose compared to you, Smog, I lucked out in my match-ups.Quote:
Originally Posted by Smog
As far as your homie's bag, I guess the guy that they dog-piled and arrested on Day One wasn't the culprit? I'm assuming you did hear about that... Anyhow, sorry that some shit-bird thief messed up y'all's weekend. These card-thieves done fucked up in the game, if you ask me... But I'm sorry to hear that making an example out of one of them wasn't enough to get your buddy's belongings back...
I went 6-3 (no byes) as well at the GP, missing out on Day 2 by this much. I had Josh Utter-Leyton (who played Gabriel Nassif in the last round feature match) on one life in Game 3 of Round 9, and he stabilized and beat me.
Went like:
UW Threshold (1-0)
Goblins (1-1) Topdecked to win one turn 4 of extra turns.
2-Land Belcher (2-1)
Don't Remember (3-1)
Enchantress (4-1)
Affinity (4-2) Won Game 1, Lost 2 and 3.
WG Loam (5-2)
Aggro Loam (6-2)
UGbw Thresh (6-3)
Played a list with 12 Island, 4 Mutavault, 4 Waste, 2 Thrasher, 2 Echoing Truth, 2 Relic
SB:
2 Wipe Away
1 Relic
3 Back to Basics
3 Needle
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Propaganda
Gratz Duke for that result. It's a sad thing you didn't make the cut to day2, but hey, 6-3 is pretty well too.
Onyl some questions: are you sure Repeal is really the right card for the vacant slot in this deck ? the point is that I'm not really convinced on it.. It can't bounce a stalker or a pesky permanent such as moat, and plus, to bounce tarmogoyf requires 3 mana... come on, it's pretty much for this deck. Perhaps in a more controllish shell, it could be hella good, but in merfolk... Better echoing truth. The fact that it cantrips isn't a complete argumentation, since also relic cantrips, but at a lower cost and with more "metagamed" functions.
21 lands is effectively too much. I'll tell ya that i'm playing with 20 lands because of the 3 thrashers, and i get continuosly FLOODED. 'm really starting to be sure that the number 19 was designed to point out the lands this deck must have.
Don't low the quantity of catchers, he's absurdely good for this format to be cut even in 1x; on the other side, I'm glad to see that tidal warrior is having a sunny revival, also in many decks which made top8 in europe. That guy has been perhaps always understimated, I recognize i was among the ones who were in a relationship of "Love and hate " with him, but now seeing how much multi-colored decks are shoring up the crew of legacy, and to see how sometimes having the utility lands may colorscrew us a bit, i'm pondering to get the 2-ofs maindeck.
The fact that you rightly pointed out, i.e. merfolk often loses to decks packing aether vial as it, is holy truth. The fact is that we rely on counters to negate the big undercosted dudes if we are in a difficult position, and the fact that they can come down freely and uncounterable ruin our plans, since it becomes almost a "bluffing " thing: when we attack, we have to hope the won't have a grunt/goyf/tandom fatty to board down and crush onto our lords. It's sad to thing, but there are other decks which eploit the brokeness of Aether Vial as much as merfolks do, if not even more.
Tested spellsnare and , in many situations i wished i had my ol' good stifles in hand, but in other cases, it was randomly useful against goyfs or bobs.
I'd be glad if someone else could consider it as a valid option to be tested.
And what that guy said to you about stifle being foreseen , being merfolk a well-known deck (also thanks to us i guess :tongue: ), is true too. But stifle, unfortunately, is always so strong that i felt a little weeping inside when i cut it from the deck..
Again, great props to ya , vampire bitch !
EDIT: you guys have all lost to goblins /aggro deck. Why the hell did you cut propaganda out of sb?? cm'on, i would have epected goblins to be in a good quantity in such a gp... and against goblins we're really, really bad.
Now you'll think about it, yeah !
EDIT 2: but duke, did you play 7 dazes ? :D check your list...
I didn't cut prop from sb. In fact I had 3. Still lost 2-1 every round I played them. Propaganda only helps, it isn't an instant win, and you still have to draw it.
I probably should have kept Propaganda in, it's true... Although, Game One against Goblins, he went *Turn one: Lackey; *Turn two: Lackey activation, dropping Siege Gang Commander (I had no one-drop, so I played a turn one Vial with no blockers to sneak in) then Piledriver; *Turn three: Goblin Warchief, attack with the whole team for like 17 points in one fell swoop. Boo. (It didn't help that the Gobbo pilot was basically a self-satisfied asshole...)Quote:
Originally Posted by Smog
@Piceli89: Shhhhhhh! Daze #'s 5-7 was supposed to be secret tech... Lol. Thanks for pointing that out to me, I got like six hours of sleep all weekend, I'm surprised if I only made one bone-headed mistake in my write-up. :wink:
As far as Repeal, no, I'm not really sure about it... but the dude who was packing it said he had loved how it worked out for him, and that he thought the deck needs more card-draw anyways. It seems worth testing out to me, because sadly I think Stifle is getting much less productive, the more folks who know to expect it from us.
Other cards I think should be tested (possibly in the Stifle slot): Spell Snare, Ponder, Memory Lapse/Remand (I'm probably reaching a little too far on this one... but after all, we are a tempo deck), more Tidal Warriors, Vendilion Clique (seriously), etc.
EDIT: My two favorite plays of the tournament (bonus section):
*Game one against Dredge: At his EOT, he sacs his Ichorids with like three Bridges in the 'yard, for a ridiculous amount of tokens. I have an Aether Vial with no counters on it and a Cursecatcher in play, and a Stifle in hand... So, in response to Ichorid's sacrifice trigger, I tap Vial for no effect, use my Stifle on the Vial, and sacrifice Cursecatcher to counter my own Stifle... LOLZ. It still wasn't enough to win Game One, because he came back with two ginormous Grave-Trolls, but it seemed like this play got him really shook up for Games Two and Three, because he seemed extra careful to plan his moves.
*Game two against Aggro-Loam: We're on the first few turns. I've gotten a mana denial type of opening hand, so I Wasteland a couple of his duals, buying myself enough time to draw into some heat. I end up drawing into... two Echoing Truths. Since he has two Mox Diamonds in play and like one land, I bounce the Diamonds to his hand, slowing him down enough to drop threats. He gets the Diamonds back online by like two turns later... By which point I've drawn into my third copy of Echoing Truth, with one still left in my hand. So once he gets his Diamonds online, I bounce them again... He tries to recover by dropping Tombstalker, at which point I Truth the 'Stalker back to his hand. This pisses him off so badly that he refuses to even acknowledge me when I tell him "Good games," after beating his ass games two and three. :tongue: