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I love this list I just hate the dragons and the third decree. I also do not like the approach you take with your sb, but lord knows as you told me in the pm you prefer redundancy above utility. Its funny I do actually like chant in this model, and I really think your going overboard with 4 plague 4void but thats just me speaking. Interesting build and I look forward to testing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by konsultant
I can not understand people not running Elspeth Maindeck. Since I once played her, I will never ever cut her again. Since I have Elspeth I rarely lose to time and it just wins sooo many games on its own. But since you are the godfather and such I´d like to her an explanation.
^ I agree. Elspeth is great. I like to run 2 elspeth. I can't understand not running at least one, and I especially dont understand decklists running 0 els and eternal dragon?! That card is completely dated. It often plays as a plainscycle and is never seen again for the duration of the game. If you do invest the mana to return it, it is way easier to remove than elspeth anyway. I'd run a 3rd decree over 1 dragon also.
In an environment with more evagreen and team america, I cut an elspeth and a decree in favor of 2x smother. Getting the mana for els or dec is difficult in those match ups. And spot removal wins those games. But the deck becomes substantially weaker to stax with those changes.
Smother? Why not Diabolic Edict/Path to Exile?
Eternal dragon and Els are cards serving two completely different functions. Dragons are mana sources primarily. Cutting one for the other would completely throw the deck off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Viscosity
QFT. I run 23 lands and two dragons and I want to squeeze in another mana source. I don't get how some people's lists can stand up to mana disruption from decks like tempo thresh or team america, and even Wastelands+Ports from goblins. Some play Tops or Ponders to make up for the lack of Dragons, but even when my mana isn't attacked I've wanted more, so I could use my Wastelands and attack with Factories more liberally while still being able to cast other spells, such as EE, FoF, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by rsaunder
What I've found from my playtesting is that deck surprisingly had more mana problems than more heavier 4c lists, because it runs wasteland and utility lands. 23 is not enough if you run wastelands, 25 is probably the right number (with two dragons).
Quote:
Originally Posted by NQN
I think Elspeth is a win more card in landstill and does not need to be main decked. I can understand running a copy in the board for certain matchups, but not in the main deck.
There is not one person I know that playtests as much as Geoff. If he doesn't have a card in his list then there is probably a very good reason for it. If everyone put as much time into landstill as Geoff then we would see landstill winning a lot more tournaments.
I, too really want to fit in land#24. Not sure what to cut though, or what to add. I really want to fit in mishra's #4.
I also agree on Els being win more. I started out with 2 copies, then cut one. I was in the process of moving the last one to the board when I saw Geoff's list. I think part of the problem with her is that she's win more in a lot of situations, but my big problem with her is that she's a 4cc sorcery for all casting purposes. Landstill doesnt like to tap out on its own turn; WOG, vindicate, and the other sorceries are a necessary evil and ought to be kept to a minimum.
Elspeth comes down turn 4 and can race almost anything in the format. After that, all you have to do is pump your dude and keep mana open for counters. It doesn't die to powder keg, ee @ 0, and deed. It also allows for a hilarious face when someone blows deed and kills their entire board to try and kill elspeth and fails. Decree takes way too long to become a reasonable win condition and when I see it early on it just pisses me off. I'd love to see decree as the first card when I see my 13th mana. I will never cut decree or elspeth.
How is Elspeth win more? You technically aren't going to win the game on turn 4. Elspeth just enables the deck to push the game futher into the late game with reusable blockers kind of like humility used to for many of us. Decree makes a 1/1 turn 4 and cantrips, Elspeth makes a dude per turn and swings for 4 in the air the following turn and into infinity. Blocks a single goyf until your opponent gets annoyed and jumps across the table to smack you.
Tapping out to play your win condition doesn't sound awful to me. I tap out to play eternal dragon/decree fairly often.
The first tournament Elspeth was legal, I was running two and got laughed at all day. When I smashed for 4 a turn, I was the one laughing at them.
It's a whole different story if you are playing with or Humility or not. I play the Wish-build with 24 lands, Humility and as winconditions 4 Factories, 1 Dragon, 1 Elspeth, 2 Decree and. There is Elspeth insane, with an Humility out it's a win from the spot. I tried Konsutant's list with Elspeth( 1 Elspeth) but I liked Eternal Dragon in that list more.
BB
Problems start when they have more than a single goyf there. Or have burn. Most aggro and aggro-control decks either have burn, or a bunch of creatures. You tap out, they do whatever tricks they want.
Well, I played a game on a bigger tourney against an opp with about 1830 playing Goyfsligh.Quote:
Problems start when they have more than a single goyf there. Or have burn. Most aggro and aggro-control decks either have burn, or a bunch of creatures. You tap out, they do whatever tricks they want.
First Game I won due to vindicating his lonely Taiga and then dropping a Standstill.
Second Game Elspeth won me the game. Just like that.
He tried to burn her instead of me (which is pretty good, since they dont have library manipulation and won't have much burn for yourself left) but failed since i had one BEB.
Elspeth made me a token and rushed for his face 4 times, focusing his burn spells on her but not being able to get rid of her. Dude, she's even better than Ajani here, serving same purposes AND being the faster clock.
So, obviously she works.
And i goddamn love to see though guys beaten up by my lil' female planeswalker.
If I'm tapping out for Elspeth, I'm baiting a 3 or 2 for 1 with a EE or a wrath of god. If you drop Elspeth and they drop more dudes to try and swing through the single token a turn, it makes your sweep effects that much better. Similar to Humility, but doesn't produce a 1/1 a turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinefol
I actually play 23 lands, 2 tops, zero Dragons and my mana works pretty well. The current record of the "new" list is 11-2-3 with 3 ID´s. When those perky tempodecks came out everywhere I cutted Decree and Wrath and added moar spotremoval and Elspeth (obv)(Well, Klaus did it, not me :>).
Elspeth is the_best_card_in_the_deck. It improves every matchup other than combo and even there it´s way faster than the other wincons.
And it´s so fuckin hard to remove when it once hit the table. If I think back I can only think of one game where she died and that was against sligh (3 for 1 trade which sounds fair to me). With ten spotremoval and three explosives she will likely never die.
EDIT: Whoever played those Vendlions some pages ago: Where they at least worth their slots? I´d like to play some myself but at first I wanted to hear some field reports ;)
He misplayed. It sounds like if he had been shooting your face he would have won.Quote:
Originally Posted by EaD
Well, i didn't actually get to know his hand, but i can say that i don't think of him making bigger mistakes since he is a pretty experienced player with a high rating.
I would say his hand wasn't optimal and the Elspeth clock to fast/ to get rid off due to my counterspell backup.
I believe without her, it wouldn't have been that easy.
Yeah but removing a dragon can only make the deck better. :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by rsaunder
I disagree. It shuffles, fetches a colored source, helps find that 3rd or 4th land, and can serve as a recurring beater later on in the game. If you were being sarcastic, my apologies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Viscosity
I think he was kidding.