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Im not a fan of Coral (for now). I have a Merfolk deck and I playtest it extensively with Zoo and the matchup is very much Zoo's favor as we all know it. Now, even if they get that Coral to a 4/4 flier chances are they are within Lavamancer + a burn spell's reach. So its kinda like too late for them. Plus, not everyone on the Merfolk forum is in favor of this guy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastorofmuppets
I don't know if anyone is aware of this, but this deck needs a new first page. That list s out of date - it predates Conflux. Can you imagine anyone playing zoo before Conflux let alone prior to Alara Reborn? The data on page one is not helpful to anyone.
Let Hatfield do itQuote:
Originally Posted by Master Shake
It seems silly to expect the first post of a 123 page thread to be up-to-date.
Then have someone write an updated Primer?
I do seriously think Zoo seems to only get more powerful with time, if only in small ways (Loam Lion > Kird Ape). If a new player comes across this primer and netdecks to OP he/she will be going to a tourney with a decent deck, but not a fully opimized one.
How is Loam Lion > Kird Ape?
Only thing thats better is immunity to Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast.
The fact you have to have a white mana turn one to cast it means you are going to get a Plateau over a Taiga, which seems worse.
One of the common reasons is because then bad will deathmark the wrong target.
I never seen anyone cast Deathmark in Legacy.
edit: and how can they deathmark... Kird ape?
Has anyone tested a boom-bust style of zoo like in extended? Too slow? Too metagamed?
Here is the list:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=32726
You do realize that is extended? And to answer your question, I think that in extended boom//bust works fine as there are no other land destruction spells that really work well. But in legacy when the format has many land destruction spells, it is just not worth it to run land destruction. If the deck called for land destruction wouldn't it make more sense to just cut the four cards that would be boom//bust and play wasteland? it just wouldn't fit the tempo of this deck. In playing with this deck only a short time I have noticed that the best games are the games that your mana supply is being used to its fullest every turn.
I know it's logical...but I play strictly blue. I always have mana open...and it seems to win me games..
Boom/Bust is only played in Extended because of Bloodbraid Elf, you can flip it of the elf and play Bust. If you have played a 1,2,3 and now a 4 drop, you're probably ahead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Resist_Temptation
Anyone try something like this? I've only tested it a couple of times but it's been working very well, with removal being sparse in legacy and all. Glimpse generally draws 2 or 3 sometimes more which I think is pretty good...at the very least it cantrips.
4 glimpse of nature
4 retribution of the meek
1 Sylvan Library
4 wild nacatl
4 steppe lynx
4 tarmogoyf
4 goblin guide
3 grim lavamancer
4 gaddock teeg
4 qasali pridemage
3 keldon marauders (not sold on them...maybe kird ape)
4 arid mesa
1 forest
1 plains
1 mountain
1 horizon Canopy
2 plateau
2 savannah
2 taiga
3 wooded foothills
4 windswept heath
I feel as if that's a poor way to approach zoo, with glimpse and almost all creatures. For starters, playing elf-combo with glimpse is likely to be much better. Here, we can't use it much because we don't have a way to generate absurd amounts of mana, and we want to be more aggressive rather than trying to string creatures together.
Next, I would say that not playing removal is also a mistake. Bolt, other burn, and path are 2 cards that make this deck tick. Burn lets you increase your clock, and let you pull out of situations where your creatures just can't get there. Path is efficient removal that lets your guys get through and deals with problem goyfs.
Retribution of the meek is really going to do next to nothing for you, since there's no creatures besides reanimator or maybe aggro loam with power 4 or greater that actually matter in Legacy. It's going to be completely dead against other zoo, tribal, thresh, and virtually everything else. Not to mention it costs three.
Last, I think the creature choice is not very optimal, since teegs and mauraders don't really fit the deck well in my opinion. Maurader especially seems like a sligh card and teeg just doesn't help in the main much.
I wish I could elaborate more, but that's what I can say at a quick glance at work.
Im planning on playing Zoo this weekend.
Deck along the lines of:
Creatures
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
2 knight of the reliquary
0-2 teeg
Enchantments
2 Sylvan Library
Instants
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path To Exile
0-2 lighnint helix or fireblast
0-1 jitte
Sorceries
3 Chain Lightning
Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
Lands
3 Arid Mesa
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Plateau (or maybe 2 and an extra fetch)
1 Savannah
2 Taiga
2 Treetop Village
3 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
Can anyone suggest a sideboard? Specifically with something to help in the reanimator matchup?
I was thinking somethin like
2-3 grips
1-2jittes (if 1 main, 1 here)
3 tormods crypts
2 macabre
2 pyroblast
2 wingshards
1 extra teeg
Maybe mindbreak trap if i expect a lot of ANT? Maybe I want more for the mirror?
Ive never piloted zoo so if someone could link me (or suggest) a good sideboarding strategy, thatd be great!
Thanks!
@InfiniteJest: Half the thread is discussing sideboard options. Just expect a bunch of Reanimator, ANT, NO Bant, Merfolk, Lands, and Dredge. Maybe some New Horizons variants as well.
I might be playing my baby this weekend as well, but I'm not quite sure. I've played against Reanimator a few times and it's just like, hey i can win, oh wait nevermind they have some broken creature with FOW/Daze backup. And i love Ravenous Trap as SB hate but it just doesn't get there against Reanimator. I am truly scared of the deck, because like other combo decks, we have some trouble.
Ill look through it again :) I think reanimator will be everywhere. Id much rather play an eva-depths hybrid except I already told a friend he could use my wastelands for UW tempo :( May have it sleeved up and try to borrow a set. I see GA as ur location. I live in Georgia too, moving back to ATL in a month. Are you playing Saturday standard too? If so maybe you could give me a quick sideboarding guide in person :)
-JP
Yeah i live in the north of Metro Atlanta, it's considered Atlanta but it hardly looks or feels like it. I don't play Standard because it's all Jund or else I'd be more than happy to help. I'll be there Sunday though for sure prolly rocking my all foil Zoo deck. I'd be more than happy to playtest a little beforehand if i can get the time in. I doubt it but i can help out for whatever. I would tell you i was the skinny guy with afro, but i cut the hair because i gotta be a functioning member of society for the medical field i'm studying. Idk if this helps, but I'm the asshole with the yellow polo shirt! Goodluck and i hope to see ya there!Quote:
Originally Posted by InfiniteJest
Also, anyone else going to the ATL 5k should meet up with me, whienot, Pulp Fiction, and Thor!
Perhaps you should consider leyline of the void for the board. Granted, we can't hard cast it, but any graveyard hate would be needed in your opening hand to be effective anyway, so that drawback isn't really a drawback in my opinion. Reanimator especially would have trouble dealing with it, since they don't really have enchantment hate and counterspells don't work on it. Also, it's pretty amazing against a lot of other things as well, though other decks I feel are a little more equipped to deal with it. If you can just use it to buy a little time, well, then you can probably steal the game because of the speed of Zoo.
You have an all foil Zoo deck? I'm so jealous. I'm just getting started on it, but I have one foil Goyf so far, and some others. But did you really buy all those Goyf's?
Edit: That post was to Loxodon obviously.
Goblins is becoming a very hard MU for me. My brother and I playtested yesterday (his BR Gobs ran 3 Lightning Bolts, 2 Weirdings and 1 Terminate) and we were like 3-1 in his favor. His SB packs 3 Perish BTW. Will further test...
I ended up going 3-2 at the 5k, playing 4 out of 5 bad matchups. I played Belcher, Show and Tell Combo, Dredge, Lands, and Red Death. My deck performed well and i think i have an optimal list finally. My deck played amazingly, but you can't help it when your opponent is playing a deck Zoo can't beat. I am satisfied. Here is the list:
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Arid Mesa
3x Windswept Heath
3x Taiga
3x Plateau
2x Savannah
1x Plains
1x Mountain
1x Forest
4x Wild Nacatl
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Qasali Pridemage
3x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Grim Lavamancer
2x Figure of Destiny
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Lightning Helix
4x Path to Exile
3x Chain Lightning
2x Sylvan Library
2x Umezawa's Jitte
Sideboard:
3x Krosan Grip
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Faerie Macabre <----MVP
2x Price of Progress
2x Pyroclasm
Some things about the deck. RUN FUCKING JITTE! You won't regret it at all. The only matchup i would take it out is ANT, and that's about it. It has insane usage against other decks. The sideboard is very very good. I would find room for some combo hate, but i don't think it's worth in a deck without reliable ways to draw maybe 2-4 hate cards against a deck that goes off in the first 2 turns. I ran 6 pieces of grave hate due to the number of Reanimator decks there. I ran into none, but other grave based decks still got fucked. I think the list is perfect in my eyes in terms of consistency and efficiency.
I don't wanna bring up the Woolly Thoctar argument up again, but i will say this: I would have beaten Show and Tell Combo had i been able to put a Thoctar into play instead of a KOTR. The extra 4 points would have headshotted him. But hey that is just one story. I still might throw him in as a 1of though.
I tested the Stoneforge Mystic package as well, and it's pretty damn good. It's just mana entensive so i would suggest 21 to the players wanting to run Stoneforge. Lavamancer + Basilisk Collar fucks shit up.
And my deck is all foil with the exception of my Knights because i just added em so i didn't think to get foils when i had the chance, and Goyfs because i refuse to pay that much money. But my fetches and Jittes are foil, and so is everything else. The stuff that isn't foil is Beta/original set
I wonder if you name Ichorid or Red Death the 4th bad matchup but both seem to be pretty manageable. Nevertheless, running into 3 bad matchups is not a fun time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch
As you mentioned the short of 4 damage, could it be the consequence of lacking a turn1 creature? You play 9 1cc creatures, lower than the average 11. The slightly higher curve might help your opponents stabilising unless they are tempo decks as well. Not to say your decklist is bad, but the matchups you played (3 combos, 1 control, 1 tempo) were just adverse to your more mid-range focused build.
It was LED Ichorid, so yes it was a bad matchup, because he jizzed all over my face on turn two doing stupid dredging shit.Quote:
Originally Posted by tsabo_tavoc
And the game i did lose i had Nacatl and FoD in play as well. It's just hard to race Progenitus/Emerakul
Lox- pics plz! there's not nearly enough pimp zoo pics floating around.
General format comments: Reanimator is a pretty poopy matchup, and the format in general is becoming more populated with unfair decks. As a result we have to become more disruptive while still maintaining our aggro aspect, which can be awkward. Embrace the mainboard gaddock teeg! He protects your answers to Iona and Sphinx from Force of Will, and can snatch game 1's from most of our bad matchups, which is more and more of the format recently.
Knight of the Reliquary + Karakas is a halfway decent answer to Iona and now the Eureka/Show and Tell/Sneak Attack Eldrazi decks and Marit Lage randomly, though Karakas almost definitely needs to stay in the s.b.
Lightning Helix is questionable over Chain Lightning right now I think, being better against Zoo (which is seeing a decline in popularity) and sometimes ANT, and being worse against our bad matchups like Goblins Reanimator and New Horizons, and being shut down by Iona on white. New Horizons is a pretty bad matchup in general, I think the only thing that would really make it halfway decent is having a manageable number of Jotun Grunts available, although he takes a some change in your maindeck to fit in, also Relic of Progenitus is halfway decent against them.
Kird Ape/Loam Lion over Steppe Lynx is sketchy right now, Lynx being better to race with and to try to kill Iona with a burn spell, but Ape/Lion being entirely better against Goblins. I'd say that Ape/Lion might be a better choice as well for their consistency against the slew of Stoneforge Mystic aggro/control decks, although Lynx's added power can help a lot. Hungrylikealion's sideboard Engineered Explosives can be very good against Stoneforge decks as well.
Answers to Iona:
-Fast damage and them not resolving Sphinx afterwards.
-Fireblast + 3 damage from random other source.
-basilisk collar + grim lavamancer
-Karakas (obv)
-Leonin Bola (!!!) tutorable with Stoneforge, also taps Sphinx if equipped to a white creature! I HAVE NOT TESTED THIS YET :D
-Vines of Vastwood (can be good against Sphinx as well if cast on a Loam Lion/Lynx, but is generally a worse maindeck choice)
I think I'm going to test out a faster version of zoo with Jotun Grunts, Reckless Charges, and Gaddock Teegs main and see how it does against the current meta.
@oneiros76: I am gonna post it soon when i get the time and when i find a good camera don't worry. I've been working on the damn deck since GP:Chicago last year.
And i used to run maindeck Gaddock Teeg because there used to be alot of Dreadstill and it shuts down Explosives and Force of Will, but the deck faded out. Plus having 2 means i might not draw it reliably and sometimes it's just a bear ya know?
Lox- Yeah, same with me with the pimping it out since the last gp!
I felt the same way about Teeg for a while and would just board him, but at this point with the metagame the way it is and the percentage that you'll face a deck that he'll be great in first game being fairly high, and since there's usually like a jitte or basilisk collar (or reckless charge in some builds) he's not totally useless g1 against the other decks.
Useful against: dredge, reanimator, new horizons, force/elspeth/engineered explosives decks, ANT/belcher, natural order, Eureka (@_@)
Bad against: zoo, goblins, gw/ stoneforge midrange, rock, survival, merfolk
Oddly enough my teammate Brian ran a very similar list, hit similarly awful matchups (Belcher, ANT, Reanimator, Dredge, Lands, Merfolk), and absolutely hated Jitte all day.
I'm not an enormous Jitte fan in this deck (I say as I just got through raving about how wonderful it was in my Merfolk sideboard). I think running 15+ removal spells along with 3-4 Lavamancers covers removal, Lightning Helix covers lifegain, and Path/having bigger creatures than them covers the need to grow your own guys. So LB, where'd Jitte help you the most in Atlanta?
He also didn't run any basics on the theory that basics make the deck worse against Wasteland, which I strangely agree with in a vacuum. With 2 duals, a Wasteland shuts you off a color. With a dual and a basic, a Wasteland shuts you off 2 colors. He struggled with Lands as a result, though, due to the basics helping more against recurring Wastelands.
Umezawa's Jitte is great at making crappy guys threatening. Zoo's creatures are already threatening, therefore Jitte is not necessary. There exists no deck with creatures that can battle in combat with Zoo's except other Zoo decks.
@oneiros76: Yeah you're right with Teeg but i guess I'm not used to my guys being a 2/2 or something. I just wish there was faster answers to answer combo pretty much, but i guess that's what ya get for playing Zoo.
@Tacosnape: I see maindeck Jitte like i see maindeck Jace, if you play em when you're ahead then it assures your victory. For me it helped me beat Belcher when they ETW for 12 dudes, and it won me both the games that i won against him. And it helped me race Progenitus against Show and Tell, which is also another bad matchup. I think the card is just amazing. I've also beaten Reanimator by equipping a Lavamancer and ramping Jitte up to 12 counters, also ensuring my victory when my loss was inevitable. I wouldn't cut the card and i found room to make a second copy in the maindeck by cutting a Chain Lightning. It also just beats almost every other deck in the format besides combo, when left unchecked.
@HAVEHEART: Have you ever faced down a Goyf with Zoo before? The task is daunting, especially when you're facing down a Goyf cast by a blue player. It also helps kill a fuckton other troublesome creatures that the opponent won't necessarily block with.
What about it did you find useful? Was it winning a game that you were going to win anyway? Could you give some specific examples?Quote:
Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch
I used to run a singleton Jitte main and it was never bad. It usually just guaranteed a game win. I've since cut if for Teegs in the main since I find that it actually prevents what we really dislike seeing, things like Natural Order, Engineered Explosives, and tons more. I also like the fact thats it's very good counter bait. It almost always draws out Force of Will, unless they have a removal spell, in which case, it draws removal away from my beaters. And it can still beat for 2.
However, Teeg is certainly bad in a couple matchups, and that brings me to my next point: the Sideboard. Here's my list.
MD
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Gaddock Teeg
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
2 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Path to Exile
3 Lightning Helix
2 Sylvan Library
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
3 Arid Mesa
2 Taiga
3 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
SB
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Faerie Macabre
3 Pyroblast
2 Krosan Grip
2 Wing Shards
2 Engineered Explosives
Any comments?
I absolutely love Macabre. It shines in the Reanimator matchup but is also useful against Dredge, which I've found to a decent matchup anyway. I'm unsure of the 2 Wing Shards and 2 Explosives however. Shards is good against random aggro, Reanimator, and Progenitus and Explosives is a catch-all. I'd like to playtest but I've got finals...does anyone have any experience they'd be willing to share?
@supachai: Read my last post bro. I give specific examples about how Jitte is amazing and how it dug me out of unwinnable situations.
Also i don't think REB or Wing Shards is necessary at all. Reanimator is most of the time gonna call white, and REB is overkill in matchups you should already be raping.
Haha. I swear that post was not there when I made my mine. >>
Anyway. For the Belcher game, Teeg would have stopped them from comboing out in the first place. Unless they were able to do so on turn 1, in which case you'd probably lose even with Jitte. And against Reanimator, when you equipped your Lavamancer with Jitte how exactly did you get counters? You realize it says combat damage....I'd imagine Lavamancer doesn't do much attacking or blocking.
I do agree that Jitte is good and helping you stay ahead and racing fatties. I originally had 2 in my sideboard and I think I'll add them back. I think there's certain metagames where maindeck Teeg is better and others where Jitte is superior.
Regarding my sideboard. I don't think Iona is actually the scariest of the Reanimator targets against us. And Shards can still get rid of anything else they attack with. Perhaps you're right though. I'll probably be cutting those for the Jittes for now. As for Red Blast, it's another out to things like Counterbalance and kills annoying War Monks. I feel that I'd rather secure the 50-50 matchups than try to beat something like combo that would require so much sideboard space just to even it...not even probably.
Anyway, I'll probably go:
-2 Wing Shards
-1 Pyroblast
+1 Krosan Grip
+2 Umezawa's Jitte
@supachai: I had a counter on it already and i got an attack in with Lavamancer before the reanimation shenanigans began again. I had already traded a Nacatl for Iona by pumping with Jitte so i was in a good position to attack. It got to the point to where i would either kill what he had brought back or headshot him, his choice.
I just think Wing Shard isnt' that good. If i was looking for a fatty hoser, i would look up Reprisal or something of that nature. 3 mana is already steep enough ya know?
Reprisal doesn't really do anything that Path to Exile or Swords to Plowshares couldn't. The best fatty hoser in color is Tariff, which takes care of all Reanimation/Natural Order shenanigans. However, it doesn't address Iona on white.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch
Well back to the Shards again, it's not just a fatty hoser. It's crowd control. Stuff like Reprisal and Tariff are very limited in what they can do. Reprisal is targeted and Tariff is card disadvantage and sorcery speed. What I really like about Shards is if they played a spell, I can get a 2 or even 3 for 1. I can also just Bolt an attacker, play Shards, and stop a potential three attackers. Card advantage is key.
Mirri's Guile
Is there a reason we this is not used over Library? It can dig deeper and is cheaper on mana. I'm guessing the reason is Library can draw cards if we need them.
That's exactly the reason. And Library digs deeper than Mirri's Guile.
Exactly. Library's power to me lies in the ability to draw 2 extra cards right away, then see three new cards next turn. That is, you've gained 1 card advantage, but more importantly have seen 6 cards in three turns.
Wing Shards should be cut for Stp at this point, Reanimator names white if they're doing well anyway so you might as well have a removal slot that can be used against Goblins Zoo etc, unless you're worried about Emrakul and Progenitus. I'd say Shards is better against Bant decks but worse against almost everything else. @supachai card advantage is key, but its harder to take advantage of Shards when you're being wastelanded /ported, or just can't play the spell in general.
I would rather have oblivion ring then swords to plowshares. Specially with Show and Tell geting more played.