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I think if I was that worried about beating Liliana I would just run Celestial Purge.Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce
If trying to stop Planeswalkers in general Pithing Needle. This is also able to be fetched and costs 1 so more reliable.
Is there any other time that Punishing Fire is better than other options we have available?
Hey Sauce, just wondering how your sideboard has been performing, specifically the one-of artifacts and Academy Ruins. It's a cool tool-box idea, but I wonder if you fail to find the parts you need given that there are no tutors in your list. Has this been a problem? If you came up against Dredge, for instance, you have 3 pieces of hate (plus the option to recur them with Ruins). Have you found that to be enough? I wonder if finding Academy Ruins and your hate is a bit of a stretch.Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce
I've been running a Punishing list as well, but my sideboard has 2 Surgical Extraction, 1 Tormod's Crypt, 1 Rest In Peace (only comes in when PFires come out), and 2 Enlightened Tutors. And I still lost to a Dredge player after resolving a Rest In Peace!
At the potential risk of a massive sidetrack...
I'm not a big fan of Punishing Fire here, but if I were to decide that Punishing Fire were the way to go for Miracles, I would be more inclined to try a throwback to Countertop's younger days.
//Land 22
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
3 Island
1 Mountain
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Cascade Bluffs
//Creatures 6
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
//Other Spells 32
4 Brainstorm
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
4 Punishing Fire
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Bonfire of the Damned
//Sideboard
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Firespout
2 Flusterstorm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
This deck doesn't particularly belong in this thread, but since people are interested in Punishing Fire, I thought I would share it. There's obviously a lot of potentially flexible slots, including but not limited to a second Cascade Bluffs, 1-2 Ponders, and more or less Bolts and/or Snapcasters. Splashing back into White for Swords or adding an Underground for Deathrite are also options. The reason to play this type of deck over UW Miracles would be an improved midgame, thus a better game against all of the midranged Deathrite decks. You'd lose some of UW's early and endgame power, so I'm not sure if it is worth it, but I'd rather try this than get too greedy with UW's mana.
God no~, it's pretty much RUG delver wannabe, butQuote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
1. instead of delver you have counter top.
2. instead of stifle and mongoose, you run bonfire and jace.
You might as well post that in a Rug delver thread and start from there.
Also Moose8583, you can take a look at a lot of proven Miracles lists here: http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/viewByArchetype/232 . The heavy Ponder version with 3-4 Entreats does exist, but it's less common than some of the other lists.
Actually, both decks have completely different plans...Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
There have been some RUG Countertop lists running around TC Decks; along the lines of Supreme Blue (minus the Dazes).
It might work, but you'd probably need Engineered Explosives to answer Goyf. Intuition could work in that shell getting loam, EE, Ruins, P. Fire, or simply as a tutor for some random 3-off.
it's pretty good at kill bob, stoneforge mystic and death rite shaman as well as having versatility to go upstairs and planeswalkersQuote:
Originally Posted by magic_gazz
dredge for me has been all about timing your plows/terminuses. sometimes you just draw your gy hate and it's a pretty easy game as long as you dont let them nature's claim it...Quote:
Originally Posted by blacknapkins
that sb is in flux, i dont play academy or tormod's/relic irl, i play 1 surgical, 1 faerie macabre. my meta has 1 reanimator deck. i also have humility and ensnaring bridge to hedge against it.
overall i find dredge fairly easy to beat since 3 spell pierces get all their relevant spells on the play except for putrid imp and you can force it.
your goal is just to setup terminus when they recur ichorid at the end of their draw step so they dont get to cabal therapy, etc.
Killing creatures is already taken care of with Swords/Terminus.Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce
I am trying to keep an open mind, but it just seems that the ability to deal with Planeswalkers and creatures you can already handle does not seem worth the strain on the manabase, especially when there are on colour answers.
What are the main advantages to running Punishing Fire? Can these problems not be easily solved with other cards?
it does not hurt the mana base that much. i think it just gives the deck another dimension and extra versatility. terminus is not very good vs liliana, neither is swords to plowshares. it also helps the merfolk matchup as you get 3-4 more red sources for your sb red blasts and p.fires.Quote:
Originally Posted by magic_gazz
pfires is also excellent against discard spells since you can get them back off red mana if they gain life or off groves naturally.
i was sold after i saw kaosjr's post/list. the mana base is obv worse, but it's not bad to the point where you get ranched out of the game by 1-2 wastelands.
check out this game where p.fires is "mvp" :-) (vs tezz)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PPTuNl4xNo
Punishing Fires excludes Rest in Peace and Blood Moon, half of our (my?) deck power.
The only thing it really does it to kill Planeswalkers.
So does Leyline of Sancity, Celestial Purge, Lightning Bolt, REBs.
Against BUG (Liliana, Jace) I side in 3 Pyroblast and 4 Leyline of Sancity. 90% of the time it's enough.
Shouldn't it start to be sufficient, I'll play some (2+) Celestial Purge.
It also kills Deathrite Shaman, Dark Confidant and Tombstalker.
Two of these three weren't shut off by RiP anyway so it is as good (or better) as a Lightning Bolt. Not even to mention PF
Without beeing an expert of the archetype I cannot imagine that a P. fire version is the optimal build.
Whenever I want to play miracles it is because of 2 things:
- Stable mana
- Rest in Peace
Both things you would have to sacrifice to support the punishing engine.
Whenever I want to play miracles it's because I have a powerful deck w/ access to Terminus, SDT, CB and JTMS.Quote:
Originally Posted by catmint
Rest in peace / PFires are role players in the deck, they are not the core reason to play the deck.
As stated before, there is no such thing as "optimal" build. If your metagame has merfolk in it, you're going to look silly when you have a rest in peace in your deck instead of PFires.
When they play Dark confidant and you have rest in peace, you wish it was PFire. Same story w/ liliana.
The only time Rest in peace is better than Pfire is vs Tarmogoyf and Nimble mongoose. Yes, there are other fringely played decks and creatures that rest in peace is better against like Dredge and KoTR but overall, it's a metagame call.
Rest in Peace better against:
Tarmogoyf
Nimble Moongose
Deathrite Shaman
Snapcaster Mage
also: ANT, TES, High Tide, Dredge, Loam
Punishing Fire is better against:
Dark Confidant
Vendilion Clique
Delver of Secrets
these are the most played cards that are affected by this choice: PF or RiP?
Honestly I think that Pyroblast and Celestial Purge are enough and prefer to go with RiP (and Energy Field and Helm of Obedience). Also because it means (to me) more mana stability and Blood Moon
it's definitly a favorite strategy call... I don't mind leaving creatures (with no tricky abilities) around and defend myself with Energy Field for enough turns to kill with Entreat/Terminus/Helm.
Other prefer the creatures way + PF to clean the board.
Strategies... In my opinion, since PF is strong against strong creatures that luckily are low on thoughtness, 2-3 Forked Bolt would deal the same effect on the field leaving you free to still play RiP.
4 Terminus
4 StP
3 Pyroblast
2 Pyroclasm
never felt needom for more control on creatures.
have you played against shardless bug, esper blade or merfolk?Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
rather often, actually.
to divert Cascade --> Ancestral Vision on myself is sweet as few other things in this game.
Pyroclasm get rid of all of the creatures of the deck you named but Merfolk.
Energy Field gets rid of Merfolk. Ah right. 3 Pyroblasts too.. the worst MU in those you named is Esper because of SFM and Batterskull
Pretty sure they would pay the :2: on their upkeep...
ThanksQuote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
I think you guys are forgetting Engineered Explosives. It takes out the important things our other removal can't handle. Especially liliana and sylvan library. I've been bringing EE out of the board very successfully.
EE doesn't take care 3 important cards:Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanpei
1. Karakas/Academy Ruin/Grove of the Burnwillows
2. Jace TMS
3. Sneak Attack
and it might take out your own RiP in the process. Hence, if you run PFire, EE might be your preference, along with Academy Ruin.
EE can kill jace in my version ^_^Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
at the cheap price of UWGR(2)
(while we have access to Pyroblast.)
The only troublesome planeswalker is Liliana, that's where we need Celestial Purge
Legacy Punishing Miracles vs Opalescence
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rhR3egx9CQ
and there it shows the problem we all explained further and further.
You just played non basics both games and if you could pack 2 Blood Moon + Enlightened Tutor, you would have win those 2 matches turn 3 leaving him with a sad face like this --> :cry:
Punishing Fire is a wonderfull SIDEBOARD card. But at the point I honestly would prefer Lightning Bolt, Forked Bolt or Pyroclasm
BTW in his second match he plays an Opalescence with you all tapped.
Why didn't you let him resolve, bit you for 12, and then Terminus him on your draw step for fucking huge card advantage? Also you would have gotten rid of Leylines too for a sure GG
Yep, was going to say the same. Your life total isn't under huge pressure if you wipe his stuff, so not take the hit?Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
sure, terminus is probably better there
Poron is probably correct in saying blood moon is very good right now. People are being very greedy with their manabases ATM and I think it would be wrong to play without it. That being said your list has to support it. Anyone's lists would be nice. I'm working on one myself. Not sure if playing without helm in these versions is ever correct, let's find out!
Allow me to rephrase, you are basically suggesting people to play Joe's version, which has Blood Moon and without Helm.Quote:
Originally Posted by kaosjr
Unless I missed something, he doesn't play blood moon.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
Joe has stated Blood Moon does not work in his list because he needs the synergy of karakas and his legendary creatures
I don't play blood moon in my deck. However, I agree that it seems quite good right now. A lot of people will probably win games with it. But I don't plan on being one of them. It is a powerful but narrow card. I prefer my sideboard cards in this deck to have as broad an impact as possible.
It occurs to me that this is perhaps backwards. It generally makes more sense to have widely useful maindeck cards and tightly aimed sideboard cards that can cripple certain decks. I don't come close to following that right now. That may be a consequence of Legacy's diversity. I want to be able to have a reasonable shot at whatever I get paired against, and there are so many playable decks.
This may not be the best way to approach things, but it works for me. The downsides to this are obvious: I get less free wins. The upside is that I hardly give up any. What single card blows me out?
Okay fine, turn one Cloudpost means I am pretty much done for. But few, if any, others.
Also, playing Blood Moon would wipe out a lot of Venser's power... and I love Venser!
The good point in playing 3x Englithened Tutor is that you play 1x MD (and/or 1x SB).
It is definitly a light slot system.
1 Blood Moon MD becomes a 1x Humility G2 if necessary (you said Cloudpost's decks?) EDIT: Here is it was "Rest in Peace" for Humility
At that point you only fear Repeal, but that's what you save your Pyroblasts and hard counters for.
Ulamog, the infinite gyre > Humility
it's counter war, then.
may be nerder win
BTW if Cloudpost is such a bad matchup may be we can play some Stifle MD/SB?
Primeval Titan, Emrakul, Kozilek, Ulamog, they all work with triggered abilities.
Or even better: my version doesn't play creatures.
I might pack 1x Cursed Totem SB (for maverick) and 1x Torpor Orb (SB) for Cloudpost..
Torpor Orb + Humility + Blood Moon are all tutorable cards and might fill that matchup. Overall, all in 1x
G2
-1 Rest in Peace
-2 Energy Field
+1 Humility
+1 Torpor Orb
+1 (2nd) Blood Moon
+3 Pyroblast
-3 Spell Pierce (like hell you're gonna make it effective there..)
Don't board out Spell Pierces against CloudPost in G2, especially if you happen to be on the play. Countering their Top/Map is crucial.
But generally I think that it is just a waste of time to prepare for 12Post. I mean I did win once against it, by CounterBalancing them out of the game after Piering their Top but...you know...bad MU is bad MU...rather focus on some of the more frequent decks...
Greetings
my "preparetions" for it would end up in a single Torpor Orb in SB.
I already play all the rest in my 75..
Problem is, while Torpor Orb stops Primeval Titan's ETB ability, it doesn't stop the Eldrazi triggered abilities, since those are triggered when you cast them, not when they enter the battlefield :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
Edit: wait... why are we even talking about Humility and Torpor Orb? In an earlier post, you said we should replace Blood Moon with the SB Humility against Cloud Post. But... Blood Moon is actually our *best card* against that deck! They can't do anything without their lands! If anything, we should bring in 2 more Blood Moons and/or Back to the Basics!
Further edit: here is a past discussion of the 12post matchup: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post709631
definitly misstyped: you remove Rest in Peace (not Blood Moon) and add Humility
you'll notice in my late post I add more Blood Moon (the second) to the main deck for G2.
About Torpor Orb, I'm sorry if it doesn't work... that's a problem :cry:. Thought so actually