I haven't seen that new worm yet, but if it puts two 5/5 Trample wurms into play for 5 CMC, Grave Titan is definitely obsolete for GBw versions.
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I haven't seen that new worm yet, but if it puts two 5/5 Trample wurms into play for 5 CMC, Grave Titan is definitely obsolete for GBw versions.
Its 6cc (2GGWW)
Armada Wurm 2GGWW
Creature-Wurm
Trample
When ~ enters the battlefield, put a 5/5 Wurm token with trample onto the battlefield.
5/5
I can agree with this. For non-Moat GBW versions (looking at Rock-styled and Pod-styled lists here), this wurm probably challenges Grave Titan. If you're on Rector and you have Moat, Yosei is still better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Claymore
Still an upgrade IMO. It still brings 10 power to the table, except that it is trample now. Being GSZ-friendly is huge. GBw will officialy have the strongest GSZ package after RtR.
It's sweet, but not if you run moat. Yosei flies. Sun titan can be jumped by elspeth and provides recursion. Elspeth can't jump both worm and token in same turn which makes it not so great.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
That said I plan on picking one up.
I'm actually thinking of trying a GBW Pod version, but what i'm having troubles with making a list.
It seems really hard to play all the good spells if you want to play loads of good Pod creatures :(
Where are you at currently, Viridia? That's what we're here for after all :p
I love how fast this thread moves!
Some thoughts (mostly for Ayotte):
I've been running G/B almost exclusively for quite awhile now. I've messed around with other versions and I think if you're not playing Scapewish, you should play G/B. It's the most consistent and with tight play is very solid vs just about anything.
I'm a huge fan of Primeval into double Treetop in a control heavy meta. I use it when my expected metagame is like that. However, in a meta with more aggro decks a la Maverick, Goblins, Fish, RUG, etc. I've been favoring something a little different. While still favorable, I don't like giving them percentage points against potential slower and more vulnerable to Wasteland draws. This is what I've been using to great results in a meta like that:
Nic Fit (61):
Lands (22):
4 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
5 Forest
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
Creatures (13):
2 Eternal Witness
2 Grave Titan
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Wickerbough Elder
Spells (26):
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Doom Blade
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Innocent Blood
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Nature's Lore
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
Sideboard (15):
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Damnation
1 Darkblast
3 Extirpate
1 Memoricide
1 Nihil Spellbomb
4 Thoughtseize
Neither is right or wrong, just my personal preference based on the expected metagame. My meta has more MUD, Affinity, etc. so I like Doom Blade over Go For the Throat. If you expect more Griselbrands, I would swap that. Obviously Return to Ravnica will bring some changes. Abrupt Decay will definitely make an appearance in some number and I will be trying out Vraska too. Golgari Charm will also probably make a sideboard appearance.
Any questions feel free to ask!
This is why I've been lurking this thread for long enough to be this interested. You guys rock.
I like the Hymns, but I haven't seen them in many lists. Are they normal?
Most decks discussed here are three colours, and they usually don't want to invest too deeply into black mana sources early on, making hymn a bad choice for extra discard (which those version usually don't run MB, if at all).
In straight G/B hymn's are viable and very strong, but I find direct discard like duress or thoughtseize to work better with therapy and grant better discard quality overal. The one extra mana cost also makes a big difference vs combo, where you want to get their keypiece ASAP. Really depends on personal preference I think.
Hymns are only really in GB versions. The ability to therapy then flashback with an explorer into a hymn on turn 2 is absolutely insane.
As has been said, they're only really viable in straight G/B. The nut draw Megadeus described is part of the pull. They're also better than pinpoint discard against fair decks most of the time. They're fine against combo and in addition to Therapies and Thoughtseizes out of the board are quite insane.
That being said, you don't want a ton of them. They're pretty dead in the late game. With two, I see them often enough to make them useful, but not draw too many. They're awesome at nabbing the last two cards out of a players hand in the mid game and obviously insane in a Therapy/Explorer opener.
In a meta with more combo, I like extra pinpoint more. In a more fair environment, I've been pleased with a pair of Hymns.
It shores up the Reanimator and Dredge matchups quite nicely. As a 1 drop, Shaman shuts down Dredge if they only have one Dredger. Against Reanimator, you can remove their target in response. Also, it stops stuff like Snapcaster, Lingersouls, shrinks Goyf/KoTR/Goose/Ooze, stops Loam, and also helps in the combo matchup in the case that they want to IGG/PIF loop. Its a 1 drop to compliment Veteran Explorer in stopping Lackey, which is extremely relevant with Goblins presence in DTB. Its also pretty good as instant speed Reach so it has an offense utility as well. Not that Nic Fit has problems removing Solitary Confinement, but the fact that it makes the opponent 'lose life' without actually targeting the Enchantress player means you can keep pressure on even through Elephant Grass and other Prison effects.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
As an excellent counter to Dredge and Reanimator, and marginal utility against IGG/PIF, I'd say Shaman helps to shore up some of Nic Fits bad matchups while providing mana utility. I'm guessing people will experiment with it as a 2'of or so. Any more than that and its more than likely going to compromise deck space.
What decks do you side in Memoricide against? I guess it's decks with few threat's like storm and other combo decks, but to me it seems quite too slow against these decks.
Deathrite Shaman really makes me wanna go back to straight up G/B nic fit! :tongue:
I thought I'd throw my GBw list up, see what you all thought. I've been modestly successful with it.
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Thrun
1 Sigarda
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Treetop Village
4 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
2 Savannah
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Life from the Loam
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Innocent BLood
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Sensei's Divining Top
Hmm, I play 3 Pulse and 3 creature removal (2 Dismember , 1 Go For The Throath ) in my BG list and I'm going to replace those 3 creature removal spells with Decay. It surprises me to see lists with only 2 or less pulses. Do your metagames not have Jace?Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
My decklist is based on Calebs list.
Lands (22):
4 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Forest
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
Creatures (14):
2 Eternal Witness
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Deranged Hermit
1 Grave Titan
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Viridian Shaman
Spells (24):
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dismember
1 go For The Throat
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top
I'm still working on my sideboard but now it is:
1x Liliana of the Veil
1x Krosan Grip
2x Kitchen Finks
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Faerie Macabre
1x Nihil Spellbomb
3x Chalice of the Void
1x Curse of Death's Hold
1x Damnation
1x Gaddock Teeg
These sideboard tactics are what I've figured out so far. Thoughts are welcome.
RUG
In: 1 Liliana of the Veil, 1 Damnation, 1 Nihil Spellbomb
Out: 1 Viridian Shaman, 1 Eternal witness, 1 Deranged Hermit
Dredge
In: 2 Surgical Extraction, 2 Faerie Macabre, 1 Nihil Spellbomb, 1 Damnation
Out: 3 Hymn To Tourach, 1 Dismember, 1 Liliana, 1 Viridian Shaman
Maverick
In: 1 Curse of Death's Hold, 1 Krosan Grip, 1 Damnation
Out: 1 Eternal Witness, 1 Veteran Explorer, 1???
Merfolk
In: 2 Kitchen Finks, 1 Damnation
Out: 2 Veteran Explorer, 1???
Soulblade
In: 1 Curse of Death's Hold, 1 Krosan Grip
Out: 1 Wall of Blossoms, 1 Veteran Explorer
Goblins
In: 2 Kitchen Finks, 1 Damnation
Out: 1 Liliana???, 1 Veteran Explorer
Belcher
In: 2 Surgical Extraction, 3 Chalice of the Void
Out: 1 Go For the Throat, 2 Dismember, 1 Eternal Witness, 1 Deranged Hermit or 1 Thragtusk???
Burn
In: 2 Faerie Macabre, 2 Kitchen Finks, 1 Liliana,
Out: 2 Dismember, 3 Pernicious Deed
(Combo) Elves
In: 1 Curse of Death's Hold, 1 Liliana, 1 Damnation
Out: 3 Hymn To Tourach
- Combo ANT
In 1 Gaddock Teeg, 1 Liliana of the Veil, 2 Surgical Extraction, 3 Chalice of the Void, 1 Nihil Spell Bomb
Out: 1 Go for the Throat, 2 Dismember, 2 Pernicious Deed, 1 Viridian Shaman, 1 Veteran Explorer, 1 GSZ
- Random aggro decks (Mono red!)
In 2x Kitchen Finks
Out:
I think With Abrupt Decay will the change the sideboard but Ive an important tournament to play this sunday.
This is the Pod list i came up with so far, but it probably relies too much on the Reveillark/Karmic Guide/Persist guy win:
Mainboard (60)
22 Lands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Marsh Flats
2 Phyrexian Tower
3 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
20 Creatures
2 Academy Rector
1 Bloodflow Connoisseur
2 Eternal Witness
1 Karmic Guide
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Reveillark
1 Rune-Scarred Demon
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Sun Titan
1 Thragtusk
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Viridian Emissary
1 Yosei, the Morning Star
18 Other spells
3 Birthing Pod
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Diabolic Intent
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Moat
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Vindicate
Think about adding Carpet of Flowers to the SB. Carpet is insane against RUG and important against Stoneblade.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelis
RUG: Side out the Cabal Therapies. They suck against RUG because the fluctuation in their hand is so fast that you have no idea what they hold the next turn. You also don't need them for Explorer because they have to attack you on the ground because you usually have enough removal for their Delvers. Bring in Finks.
Dredge: Bring in Curse of Death's Hold!!! It is the best card against them Side out the second Liliana, she is utterly useless against Dredge. Also add both Finks. Side out 2 Therapies or Thrun and a Therapy.
Merfolk: Side out 3 Therapies and keep the Explorers in the deck. Like against RUG they empty their hand quickly and attack on the ground anyway. Kill their evasion (Reejerey/leveled Coralhelm).
Soulblade: Here is where Carpet of Flowers would be very useful. You could side out 3 Explorers and bring in Carpet of Flowers as your board plan. Keeping Explorers is awkward because you need some more Mana but don't know if Explorers will help him even more.
Goblins: I'd say -2 Maelstrom Pulse, - 2 Liliana + 2 Finks, + 1 Damnation, +1 Curse of Death's Hold (!!!)
Belcher: Also Gaddock Teeg! Side out Grave Titan and Thragtusk.
Burn: + 3 Chalice of the Void!!! You don't need Faerie Macabre. Also side out Grave Titan.
Elves: Add all Chalices! I'd say side out Thrun, Grave Titan, Thragtusk, 2 Pulses and keep 2 Hymns.
ANT: Deed is strictly better than Maelstrom Pulse. They only have Empty the Warrens tokens as threats and Deed can be played preemptively (avoiding Discard) and also gets Moxen/LEDs.
It would be difficult for me to side out therapies... Though I see what you are saying about it vs RUG. And yes Carpet of Flowers is absolutely awesome against anything Blue.
Is chalice reallythAt good in our deck?
Siding Liliana out vs anything that floods the board seems fine. I usually keep her in vs Maverick though. That match up becomes super Grindy, and a liliana on an empty board is usually GG for them.
Hoooooly shit, @Tao posted =D What version are you playing these days?
@Nelis -- Uh, more colors. In straight G/B you can get away with more Pulses (and they're going to be better for you). Like, in Rector, I'd rather Faith's Fetters a Jace, because than that makes the next one they draw look stupid, too. My Rector runs a Pulse, a Vindicate, and a Fetters as "catch-all" answers, if you will. That adds up to 3x Pulse, kind of. Just the extra color gives me more options aside from Pulse. Also, Sigarda is really good at killing Jaces. So are mountains.
Also, for the record, I agree with basically everything Tao said as far as board advice goes.
How's your tribal matchup been in testing? Seems like you might want the 4th Deed.
Is Viridian Shaman a meta call? Or are you just not worried about enchantments at all? I do agree that I've never liked Wickerbough, but I'm not sure you need a GSZ "naturalize guy" maindeck. Depends on meta.
Also, I echo what everyone else is saying about Primeval Titan -> 2x Treetop in the G/B version. That's seriously amazing. I only played G/B a little when locals need to test vs it (since most "wild" nic fit players run G/B). When I need to gauntlet it, I always run Qweerios' latest, and Primeval -> 2x Treetop has won a lot of games.
@Viridia -- Yeah, I feel like you're way too all-in on the Lark combos. RSD seems patently unnecessary here -- I'd cut that first.
Actually, as I think about it, I think I'd just use Lark for value and take out all of the combos. I mean, you could put in like Mikaeus and go all-in with infinite persist, but people are already going to be slamming graveyard ASAP vs you, so I'm not sure I'd want it worse. The Rector package is fine, although I question the lack of Sigarda in your creature suite.
No Tops? -- this is my main problem with Pod lists. We're actually a lot more spell-heavy than creature-heavy, which naturally makes Pod worse. Honestly, Viridia, you might want to try some unexplored territory. Instead of Pod, you might want to try Fauna Shaman. Here's the sample list that I threw together for a Fauna build. Bear in mind that this is really, really rough:
4x Veteran Explorer
3x Fauna Shaman
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scryb Ranger
1x Loyal Retainers
2x Eternal Witness
2x Academy Rector
1x Dimir House Guard
1x Thragtusk
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Kokusho, the Evening Star
1x Primeval Titan
1x Griselbrand
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Vindicate
1x Moat
1x Faith's Fetters
1x Recurring Nightmare
2x Pernicious Deed
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Swords to Plowshares
3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Savannah
2x Bayou
2x Scrubland
3x Forest
3x Plains
2x Swamp
3x Windswept Heath
2x Verdant Catacombs
1x Emeria, the Sky Ruin
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
The general idea was to get as close to the old Rec Sur lists as possible, with Fauna substituting for Sur (obviously a pale imitation, but it's what we have to work with). There's a lot of updates I'd make to this (ie switching Yosei in for Kokusho), but it's a starting point if you're interested.
@Papyrus -- is Loam really necessary? I'd also definitely look into the new Armada Wurm -- your list is exactly the style of deck that's going to want it the most. 10 Zenith-able trampling power spread across two bodies is exactly where the Rock builds want to be.
I'd also look into dropping to 3 Forests and bumping up to 2 Swamps -- there will be times where you'll want to Explorer a Swamp and it'll be in your hand. With 7 green fetches, you shouldn't have any trouble finding a basic Forest.
@HoneyT -- Nic Fit community best community IMO.
Also, I'd recommend running a Diabolic Intent. Aside from giving you more mid/late game flexibility, it also can add to your number of broken openers by Explorer -> Intent -> Hymn. That way vs the unfair decks where you really need the discard, you have a "3rd" Hymn, but vs other things you have a way to grab Top, wincon, Deed, whatever. I'd probably cut the Innocent Blood for it, personally, but I've never been impressed with Innocent Blood as anything more than a wish target, so that might just be my bias.
A word on Hymn in general for everyone:
Hymn to Tourach can and does win games -- sometimes it just takes exactly the right cards, and they can never recover. At the risk of sparking the personal preference debate again, I feel that with Hymn it's a choice between raw power (Hymn) and surgical precision (targeted). I know that the Rock thread was having the same debate a while ago, and they ended up siding with targeted discard. As for Nic Fit....I dunno. There's certainly a strong argument for targeted discard, because it allows us to shape our opponents' plays around both our answers and the mana that we give them. However, the raw strength of Hymn is definitely something that should not be dismissed out of hand -- especially if you nut draw into Explorer/Therapy/fb/Hymn, and they literally don't have a hand on t2. I think that something like HoneyT is doing is probably the best compromise -- run a lot of targeted and a few Hymns as power cards. I'd just add a Diabolic Intent or two to make the Hymns more common when they're needed.
I'm also on a ferocious Diabolic Intent kick at the moment. Seriously, it's Demonic Tutor with an upside for our deck. Fuckin awesome.
Anyway. That's all I got for now.
A reminder that the banlist update happens tonight. AKA we hope and pray that Show and Tell gets banned even though it won't, and we hope and pray that Mind Twist gets unbanned even though it won't. I'll be hedging my bets though and staying up for the update just in case. My project to assimilate Mind Twists is behind schedule (I've been getting too much pimp), so if it gets unbanned tonight I'm gonna need to be ready to jump on that =( Speaking of pimp, I just won 4x foil German Cabal Therapies on ebay last night for Scapewish. Because German is an angry language, and mountains.
@Arianrhod I dunno about fauna shaman, all it does is you discard a creature and search another one. While strong it dies to creature removal and to Deed, because you'll often deed for 2 or 3. Also you don't benefit from ETB and dies triggers all the time, but you do with Pod.
Also QQ @ US sellers that don't ship to Europe, i never get to see those auctions :(
The funny thing is that it was a German seller, actually. It was like a 3-day auction though, so maybe you just missed it. I got stupid lucky on it....won the set for just over 100. Pretty sure German foil Therapies retail for around 50-60ish each.Quote:
Originally Posted by Viridia
As for Fauna vs Pod -- while Fauna does die to Deed a lot, I feel like it gives better value overall. Trading extra Explorers into threats late is nice, whereas Pod restricts you a lot. I dunno. It's just a thought. I don't really have a convincing argument for you one way or the other, honestly.
I think i'll try my luck with Pod first, if it really doesn't work out, i can always try Fauna Shaman anyway :)
@Qweerios I had some questions regarding my BUG Gifts list.
My list is similar to your last gifts list.
I think without a primeval titan, genesis is a superior choice over stronghold, due to getting 2 cards per turn. Also it can beat if necessary, and doesn't die to wasteland (which is run much more than STP) Do you agree?
I am still having trouble with goblins. Ringleader is too much--even after a deed wipe. They can just keep rebuilding. They can use the extra lands off explorer just as well as we can. In theory two plagues will beat them but I never have enough time to find and cast them. I don't find Liliana to be that helpful, nor jace.
Speaking of planeswalkers, I own 2 liliana, 1 jace, and 2 garrukPH. Right now I'm only using 1 lili and 1 jace. Do you think I should add another garruk for gifts lulz? Do you think the new pw or abrupt decay have a place in BUG?
Thanks!
When I played GB I really did love Hymn to Tourach. It is a very good card. But I am leaning on Thouseize in the slot. While Hymn alone will win some games thanks to the random effect, Thoughtseize allows us to take out problems that our current hand cannot deal with, and leave the problems that we can deal with. Again I have had good results with Hymn and I don't expect it to be bad, it is just my preference of play style.
I may drop Punishing Fire and go back to GB, because despite my meta being infested with Tribal and Maverick, I think that GB is much better to fight SnT variants. I also believe that I am a much better player than when I first played GB and now I can have a chance against Jace decks.
Of course all of this is just building up to me hopefully, eventually, getting duals to play scapewish.
Another Whalinchron Nic Fit list from me, this time focusing on heavy recursive elements both to control the board state and to combo for the win.
Utility Creatures
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Eternal Wtiness
Bomby Creatures (and Spell)
2 Thragtusk
1 Great Whale
1 Recurring Nightmare
Search Engine
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Intuition
2 Diabolic Intent
3 Sensei's Divining Top
Removal Suite
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Damnation
2 Maelstrom Pulse
Disruption Suite
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy[/u]
Utility Lands
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
Nonbasic Mana Lands
3 Bayou
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Tropical Island
1 Misty Rainforest
Basic Mana Lands
4 Forest
3 Swamp
2 Island
sdematt over in The Rock just had a hell of a post about their very similar matchup with Miracles - http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post674030
Here are some relevant excerpts about Hymn:
Quote:
We discussed Hymn over Inquisition, and we came up with the fact that in the main, you want Inquisition all day everyday. Why? Firstly, if you're on the play, you immediately Thoughtseize to take Top. Every game I won consisted of me nuking Top in some fashion, whereas the games I lost usually went into Topdeck mode with me having nothing, and him having nothing and a Top. Top/Library manipulation really controls how this matchup goes.
Quote:
You want Inquisition to take Top, Counterbalance, or another relevant card like EE/Shackles. Hymn, while in his words, "a very decent card against us," doesn't do enough to necessarily warrant its inclusion in the maindeck in a meta with a ton of RUG in it as well. You want the targeted discard to take the things you want, not strip a land + Land Tax or something like that.
Quote:
I argued we required a slot that was both good against Combo as well as Miracles. Thalia was one option, but so was straight up Hymn to Tourach. He said the card was decent against him, and probably better than other answers. Hymn doesn't slow you down in this matchup (Thalia would), and works to rip apart the hand. Hymn should complement additional targeted discard, not replace it. It's also good in the Combo matchup. Perhaps not quite as good as Thalia, but still pretty good.
Tied for first place at a local tournament. There were about 30ish quality participants this week. There were FOUR "Lands" players as well. Upon knowing of this meta shift, I made a small alteration to my deck where I exchanged 2 SB Nihil Spellbombs for 1 Jace and 1 Lily in my MD. It went as follows:Quote:
Originally Posted by Star|Scream
2-0 vs. Combo Elves
In: 2 Plagues, 4 Thoughtseize, 1 Lily
Out: 1 Prime Titan, 1 Thrun, 1 Ooze, 2 Spellbombs, 2 Jace
2-0 vs. Lands
In: 2 Extirpate, 1 Lily, 1 jace
Out: 1 Deed, 1 Volrath, 1 Prime Titan, 1 Thragtusk
2-1 vs. Reanimator (2 missplays cost me the first games, I could have went 2-0 easely)
In: 2 Extirpate, 4 Thoughtseize, 4 Negate, 1 Jace, 1 Selkie
Out: 4 Deeds, 2 Pulse, 1 Prime Titan, 1 Thragtusk, 1 Thrun, 1 Garruk, 2 Liliana
2-0 vs. DnT
In: 2 Plagues, 1 Selkie, 1 Lily
Out: 2 Spellbombs, 1 Ooze, 1 Jace
With the following list:
Creatures (10)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
Spells (27)
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Nihil Spellbomb*
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
Lands (23)
1 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
Sideboard (15)
4 Negate
4 Thoughtseize
2 Extirpate
2 Engineered Plague
1 Selkie Hedge-Mage
1 Liliana of the Veil*
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor*
More news to come soon!
I think I'll try maybe a 2/1 split for decay/pulse, just to make sure that I can at least get one of them in hand off a gifts.
I know you moved away from gifts but I just don't have the planeswalkers to mirror your list, although I did just pick up a 2nd jace. Also I like the gifts for now, and feel the most comfortable playing BUG with grave titan as a finisher.
@qweerios: I really like that bug superfriends list. It looks like a very powerful dedicated control deck. However, it seems like you won't trigger the explorers all that often--you have 8 explorers and only 5 real sac outlets. With these numbers you'll only have about a 45% chance to trigger the explorer by turn 4. On top of that, most of your removal tend to be fairly high up the curve. Do you find the deck struggling in the early/mid game?
Edit: that percent is actually closer to 60% if you assume a looking at 3 extra cards with a brainstorm/top.
I think pw's like liliana or jace are not necessary because you get above 4 mana very easy with Veteran Explorer and could just play a bomb instead, like the Rector Version runs all the 5/6 drops. I prefer big guys or high loyalty PWs like Garruk 3.0/Vraska over Lily/Jace. Just my preference :)
While Liliana is better against the Show and Tell decks which everyone is playing now...and Jace is Jace...so I see what you're doing.
I think it's a metagame/personal preference
has anyone testing results with BUG/combo? (palinchron/nightmare/leviathan) I'm very interested. I will get some testing with some friends in tomorrow. I'm gonna try out both palin/leviathan & only leviathan & also the more stable("anti-cute") BUG version
Anyone notice the new 5/5 trample wurm that makes a 5/5 trample wurm when it comes into play? I think I have to stick with GWB and sub out grave titan for him.
As for Fauna Shaman vs Birthing Pod I have actually tried this because Fauna shaman can be gotten with Green Sun's it seems pretty good. But the Dies/ETB abilities from Birthing Pod can get pretty ridiculous. They both have their ups and downs big difference is Birthing Pod doesn't die to STP, your own deed or your own Innocent Blood. Plus if you hit an early birthing pod it makes it almost impossible for your opponent to catch up with all the card advantage. Biggest downside is you have to have consecutive CMC creatures to pod into. Here is the sequence of pods I try to go into.
Turn 3 Kitching Finks or Pod
Turn 4 Pod or Kitch Finks (which ever you didn't play last turn). Pod into Phyrexian Metamorph to Copy Finks.
Turn 5 Pod cloned Finks persisting into a copy of birthing pod and getting Academy Rector. Then using your cloned pod to pod Rector into Thragtusk with Rector getting which ever enchantment is needed at the time.
If I start this off with an early explorer I can begin this on turn 2. Once you pod into Sun Titan with Deed decks that require creatures stand a very little chance of winning. I am taking my deck to SCG Cincinati and Indy next month so hopefully I will have some great tournament reports and decklist later. Tuned 10/15 SB cards for Omniscience and Miracles, probably a bad idea but only time will tell.
I think the wurm will be fine. But I still think Grave is better. The fact that he makes dudes when he attacks giving him a sort of vigilance. Also the deathtouch is surprisingly very relevant. Many times I have held a knight at bay and attacking because of his deathtouch they have to trade knight with him. Same with RUG. It takes forever for a RUG deck to fight though all of the chump guys he provides.
I think that Grave is still the best finisher in a non moat version (also scapeshift)
I've tested a few games with this Pod list tonight:
Mainboard (60)
22 Lands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Marsh Flats
2 Phyrexian Tower
3 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
19 Creatures
2 Academy Rector
2 Eternal Witness
1 False Prophet
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Reveillark
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Strangleroot Geist
1 Sun Titan
1 Thragtusk
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Viridian Emissary
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Yosei, the Morning Star
19 Other spells
3 Birthing Pod
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Faith's Fetters
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Moat
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Vindicate
It's not bad, but you really just need alot of creatures :( I hadn't thought of the Phyrexian Metamorph yet, i'll probably squeeze that in, that sequence is quite insane.
I would also try and squeeze in a Restoration Angel in the Pod build as well Viridia.
I don't think you need 7 PWs to go Gifts-less. When I tried the Nihil Spellbombs maindeck, 2 Lily, 2 Jace, 1 Garruk was plenty. I might try Deathrite Shaman in those slots when RtR comes out, but I am not convinced that they are even better than Spellbombs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Star|Scream
@somethingdotdotdot,
I don't know where you got those statistics from, but between 2 Tops and 4 BS, I rarely find myself struggling for land drops. I don't think my BUG Fit version struggles any more in the early game than any other Nic Fit deck. The Explorer-Therapy interaction is a great accelerant and provides color stability, but it doesn't mean that in its absence, Nic Fit cannot perform. This archetype is, to its very core, vulnerable to lightning-fast strategies and disruption. Fair decks don't kill in 3-4 turns, and that is all we need to blow up a Deed and slowly bury our opponent with our unparalleled card quality and pinpoint recovery.
Hi all. This is my first post (I've been lurking for a while lol). I've been playing Nic Fit for about six months. I started out with a straight GB list, but just recently switched to a BUG list (recently, as in last week) that I took to a small local tournament last night, so I thought I would just give a mini-report. I don't remember too many details, but I'll try to give a pretty good idea of what went down, and my thoughts of the deck, etc. Here's the decklist (it's based on Caleb Durward's recent list from his article):
// Lands
3 Forest
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
// Creatures
3 Baleful Strix
2 Coiling Oracle
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Grave Titan
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Shardless Agent
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Veteran Explorer
// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Force of Will
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top
// Planeswalkers
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
// Sideboard
2 Carpet of Flowers
3 Thoughtseize
3 Negate
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Memoricide
1 Perish
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
Round 1 vs. RUG Delver (2-0):
I felt pretty good about this matchup going in, with the Carpet of Flowers and Perish in the sideboard. He was on the play, cast a ponder and passed. I think I played a Cabal Therapy (naming Brainstorm maybe?), missing, and seeing that he had two 'Goyfs in hand. The next turn he played the 'Goyf, and hit me once while on my turn I played Liliana and used her edict. My next turn I landed a Jace, and on his turn they both got bolted... I don't remember much more about this match, but I know I Cabal Therapied him again getting TWO 'Goyfs and then rode Scavenging Ooze to victory.
Game two was pretty similar, I started with 2 Pernicious Deeds and a Perish in hand, wiped his board and landed another Scavenging Ooze. I bumped it a little, but on his turn he killed it with Grim Lavamancer + Bolt. On my turn I topdecked another Ooze and just won from there. Oh yeah, I played a Grave Titan the turn after to seal the deal. :D
(I can't remember what I sided in... I know it was at least the 2 Carpet of Flowers and the Perish)
Round 2 vs. Combo Elves (0-2)
Game 1 he was on the play, and went off turn 3 after I had just landed a Pernicious Deed. On his combo turn, however, he had around 6-7 creatures and tried to play a Green Sun's for Regal Force, which I Forced, and then he bounced Elvish Visionary with Wirewood Symbiote and topdecked ANOTHER Green Sun's and killed me from there. Game two went much the same way. I feel like this isn't a great matchup... I'd lost a couple times to this guy before when I was running GB.
I sided in the Perish, Memoricide, 2 Surgicals and 2-3 Thoughtseizes.
Sided out 2 Lilianas, and the Veteran Explorers (Not sure if that was the right call, but I've game Elves two lands before and they have absolutely no trouble going off the turn after that)
Round 3 vs. LED Dredge (2-1)
Game one was probably the most boring and dragged-out game of Magic I think I've ever played, lol. I went first and Cabal Therapied him naming LED and hit. He had nothing else in his hand, and drew nothing but lands the entire match. He hard casted a Narcomoeba, Golgari Thug, two Stinkweed Imps, AND an Ichorid (which I Forced... it was that bad). He eventually just beat me down while my deck drew nothing but Force of Wills and lands (and I had a top out)! Games 2 and 3 I grinded him out on the back of Scavenging Ooze.
Sided in 2 Surgicals, 1 Nihil Spellbomb, 1 Memoricide
Sided out 2 Lilianas, a Jace, and ?
Thoughts:
I thought the deck performed decently; however, I really miss Green Sun's Zenith. Keeping the blue card count up to support the Force of Wills is kind of awkward, as well... They really didn't do much the entire game, except protect a Pernicious Deed against RUG, and stop the Green Sun's against Elves (which didn't matter anyway). I am loving Jace and Brainstorm in this deck, so I will probably stick with BUG, but I think I am going to go for a build much like Qweerios' last list. Force of Will's sideboard are a possibility, but they will probably just stay Negates, as I doubt I will have the blue count to support them. Also, another thing I noticed was that I just lacked the whole late-game bomb thing. I felt like most games I won I just flooded the board with a bunch of 1/1 value creatures, and eventually found my Grave Titan or just won with Ooze, and it was just kinda boring sometimes... :rolleyes:
Speaking of that, I think the Consecrated Sphinx is just going to become another Grave Titan. I can recall very few matches (with BUG and GB) that I lost after I stuck a Grave Daddy. Shardless agent was terrible last night too, pretty much always cascading into something stupid, like a Top when I have one out, or a Cabal Therapy during the late game. Clique was actually pretty decent, but probably still not up to par with Eternal Witness or something.
So yea, that's my thoughts on the list I ran. I will be switching to the Green Sun shell and see how that does. This post turned out quite a bit longer than I expected it to be, so I'm sorry about that... Maybe it's just that fact that I'm trying to procrastinate studying for my Accounting exam tomorrow, lol. Anyway, I hope to be fairly active in this thread in the future, and I hope to be able to bring something to the table as well. I look forward to working with you all. :)
Also, @Qweerios, could you explain to me why you don't use Dryad Arbor in your last BUG list? It seems to me that it just makes so many more hands more keepable. Thanks!
Cheers,
--
Jacob
P.S. If somebody could fill me in on how to tag cards, it would be awesome, and I'll go back and edit my post lol. Thanks again!
I'm getting them from a multivariate hypergeometric distribution, with the restriction that you get 1-4 gsz/explorer (out of 8) and 1-3 sac outlets (put of 5) in 13 cards. It's technically 61.8314%, but it's still inflated as it doesn't factor out draws with too little lands.
As for the clock, I'm aware that fair decks don't win by turn 3-4, but a turn 1 delver/turn 2 flip tends to do a fair bit of damage by then. Without the ramp, it'll like be turn 4-5 (when you have 4-5 lands) that i think you'll safely land the deed. Maybe it's just my bias, but it seems that all of your answers tend to be at 3 mana to cast. (I suppose this will change once abrupt decay comes in and this becomes moot).
Couple other questions:
Why wasteland instead of dust bowl? As a one of to be searched for with Titan, you'll probably have the mana to use it and it can kill multiple troublesome lands instead of just one (I realize that you could witness the wasteland back, but that just seems convoluted).
Also, have you considered a couple of engineered explosives? At 0 it could kill multiple flipped delvers and dodges daze and pierce since you dont pay the mana until it resolves. At 1 it can both trigger explorers and kill opposing 1 drops. With Titan, you could also add in a singleton academy ruins to create a semi lock without having to use witness to recur deed.