i am thinking maybe sadistic sacrament would be good vs miracles. Anyone have any experience using that card?.
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i am thinking maybe sadistic sacrament would be good vs miracles. Anyone have any experience using that card?.
I know Earwig squad does a good job for goblins so could work, though I'm personality not sure how good it is since I have so far Quite the positive record vs miracles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
I saw some people sharing their BW list a few pages ago, figured I'd share mine for some input.
Deck: BW Pox (60)
// Lands
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Marsh Flats
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Scrubland
5 Swamp
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
// Spells
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Lingering Souls
1 Pox
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
3 Thoughtseize
1 Vindicate
4 Dark Ritual
4 Innocent Blood
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Liliana of the Veil
// Sideboard
SB: 2 Disenchant
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 2 Massacre
SB: 2 Perish
SB: 2 Porphyry Nodes
SB: 2 Spinning Darkness
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
I've only run this in local small-scale tournies. Innocent Blood used to be STP, but I prefer Innocent Blood more in the local meta.
In your list I can definitely see the reason why you would want innocent blood. I mainly run swords to Plowshares because I run tombstalker and want less symmetrical sacrifice effects. Running tombstalker also makes up for the life an opponent can gain from swords by being a much faster clock than souls or factory.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquamaniac
I do have to ask, why porphyry nodes? Not sure how great that seems. I guess it does hit nimble mongoose, tnn and other possible hexproof threats. It just seems loose to me. Engineered plague is likely better for that slot as it has a lasting effect against decks like elves, merfolk and even mentor builds. Otherwise most decks likely don't run enough creatures to make it that worthwhile. Our sacrifice effects already handle the creature light decks and nodes can oftentimes come down a bit too late or too early and not actually get much value. How has testing been proving for you on that?
I'm very interested if you have had much luck with it as well. What seem to be weak and strong match ups etc.
Porphyry Nodes was the budget go to over The Abyss and has really helped deal with Monastery Mentor if they get a trigger or two off, but Engineered Plague definitely seems like a better option (I can't believe no one in my group thought about it). Personally, my biggest struggle is being on the draw against a turn 1 Aether Vial. I have a few local Fish players, and every match comes down to "can I keep Vial off the table." Nodes has done work in these situations, but not often enough. UWR Delver is always a bit of a struggle, as is OmniTell (every win I've pulled off against OmniTell has been off of incredibly risky plays that somehow work). EsperBlade doesn't pose as much as a problem, any iteration of Nic Fit is an absolute shut out for them. I lose to storm variants more than I should, its always just me making mistakes. I've yet to not draw against D&T on this build. Elves, Grixis, and Miracles rarely show up.Quote:
Originally Posted by mykatdied
The "creature-less" aspect of the list still throws people off. The one UWR Delver player keeps bringing in Containment Priest against me. even though we've all told him it doesn't do anything. My meta has been hate free since, well, forever (stompy decks don't even make appearances). I'm sure given the rest of the year I'll have to start making drastic changes to how I pilot it to do well in the small room setting.
There's a tourny coming up next week, I'll throw in the E.Plagues and watch them perform better than Nodes (R.I.P. cool art).
Nodes isn't the worst idea by far. I have just never liked it as the only way you truly get value is when you are behind on the board. For my bw list I went with stalker and nether spirit because they work fine with night of souls betrayal and combine that with engineered plague and you pretty much never lose the tribal match up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquamaniac
Personally one of the best ways to beat vial is to bring pithing needle and let them have 4 dead cards in their deck once you have named vial. If they don't see any artifact or enchantments game 1 they are unlikely to bring in hate for it. Although crucible could instigate that. Engineered plague is also good vs death and taxes naming human. At least it kills mother of Runes, thalia and nerfs crusader quite a bit. The rest of your creature kill can handle the rest plus without access to thalia they can't hinder your ability to play multiple spells a turn with the tax effect she brings.
Patriot delver can be a tough match up. If they see you are creatureless main board they are likely to board out some removal, most likely swords to plow. This can allow you to run something like stalker or for a brief period of time I ran desecration demon. He plays extremely well with our game plan and encourages people to sacrifice their creatures which is just gravy.
Way back when I first piloted my original bw list I wrote a brief tournament report. Here is the link http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/t...r?comment=2896
how does storm interact with counterbalance?
They play main board discard, Duress, and Cabal Therapy, and sideboard into Abrupt DecayQuote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
sorry, i meant how spells with storm mechanic interact with counterbalance. Can it counter all the copies?
Counterbalance oracle texting:
"Whenever an opponent casts a spell, you may reveal the top card of your library. If you do, counter that spell if it has the same converted mana cost as the revealed card."
Meaning that CB only trigger's on the casted spell, but doesn't trigger on the storm copies since those aren't cast. Rather the storm copies are put on the stack. Specific part of the wording: "..casts a spell, ... counter that spell...".
Additionally, that means potentially the original spell is countered by CB, but the storm triggered copies remain on the stack and resolve unless another effect prevents them to.
Thank you! That means Bitter ordeal may be better sb card, vs miracles, than Sadistic sacrament.
Storm is best stoped by taxing effects like chalice or thorn of amethyst. I see you run nine 1cc discards spells. Those in the SB are probably redundant, so try switch them for something else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquamaniac
i agree, its not safe to rely on just discard to stop storm since they have brainstrom to hide their important spells and past in flames to flash them back..i've had better success against storm using sphere effects like sphere of resistance/trinisphere and extraction effects like extirpate and surgical extraction..i once had a storm player scoop when on the first turn, i ritualed into an inquisition of kozilek nabbing infernal tutor, following it with a surgical extraction then using the remaining 2 mana to cast sphere of resistance..
I've tested Sadistic Sacrament and after looking at Bitter Ordeal, I'd say Sadistic is better. Less conditions to be met and what Miracles deck has a large number of 3 cmc spells? I think the only problem I've seen in the past was weirdness like Blood Moon tutored with Enlightened Tutor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
I too see Miracles as a problem deck since we like low mana spells due to Wastes and Poxing and they play the long game with a large land count and can set their draws to be superior to ours.
Once there was a time I ran 4 Poxes main deck alongside 4 Lilianas. Suffice it to say, my Miracles buddy didn't enjoy losing 15+ land to his graveyard. Problem ultimately, is that swarming becomes more problematic than I'd like.
I've found dealing with Miracles involves a truckload of disruption in the form of Land killing, Fetchland prevention, and Pithing Needle. Oddly enough, preventing reshuffles by surgically extracting Ponder and Fetches can give you an edge when their SDT starts giving them garbage cards after 3 turns. CounterBalance itself is less of an issue.
If you have the option of destroying one or the other, let it be SDT because top decking sux for us.
yeah, lost to angels last tuesday. :P
Sadistic sacrament should be brutal vs 12 post.
it could work though it seems a tad bit slow..
i prefer wasting one of their cloudposts or glimmerposts then following it up with a surgical extraction..
Yeah, did that to the local player. :laugh:Now he plays pithing needle in main deck(!).
Needle AND Warping wail.
Hey guys I really like Life from the Loam and I REALLY like Pox BUT I'm having trouble finding a good "stock" Loam Pox list. Anyone got any good recommendations?
mr. edelstein is a good loam pox pilot, he should be able to shine some light on your case..Quote:
Originally Posted by blubberpompnao
Since there's only really a few people playing pox Loam Its hard to say if there's truly a stock listQuote:
Originally Posted by blubberpompnao
I wouldnt go so far as call this a true aggregate but it's my opinion on what's important in the deck.
I would say the carda you absolutely should play are
4 1 mana target discard
4 smallpox
3-4 abrupt decay
3-4 lilliana of the veil
3-4 hymn to tourach
3 loam
3-4 entomb
3-4 crop rotation
1-2 ravens crime
1 nether spirit
The lands that are neccessary in my opinion are
Wasteland
Mishras factory
Tabernacle
Bojuka bog
Dark depths
Thespians stage
Cabal pit
Actual gb mana base (fetch basics bayou)
After that I think the rest is up to play style, alternatives ranges from more graveyard, creatures, lands and different removal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blubberpompnao
Toxboy gave a nice overview above. Let me add some.Quote:
Originally Posted by jredelstein
My older list before thespian stage was more grindy, winning with only Bloodghast and Mishra's Factory
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=69791
Crop Rotation was in the sideboard and functioned as creature removal with Cabal Pit and The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and also worked as graveyard hate with Bojuka Bog and to fetch Karakas against reanimator or sneak and show. I love this build and still think it is a better deck than the ones with Dark Depths but being able to win fast with Marit Lage was a necessary concession to time concerns at tournaments(I started 3-0-3 at a Legacy Open bc of slow Miracles players).
Entomb does a lot of things for us too, it can grab Life from the Loam, Bloodghast, a land, Cabal Therapy, or Raven's Crime allowing us to start attacking with creatures, attack their hand, or start an engine like Wasteland-Loam (Even better with Tabernacle).
Toxboy stated how important The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale is, I agree but if you don't have access to one just be aware that you need to gear you deck to it, Tabernacle does a lot of work answering multiple threats while keeping our opponent from adding to the board, if you don't have one I'd recommend playing Pernicious Deed main as it also helps clean up the board and answers almost everything. There are a lot of game when I fall behind but if I find I Deed I am right back in it or now very favored to win. I'd say about half our cards are objectively powerful but all become awesome as part of an engine. Liliana of the Veil is a powerful magic card as is Smallpox but when combined with Bloodghast and Life from the Loam they are even better. I could list 100 card interactions that make individual cards better than usual in our deck.
There are a lot of cards that fit, I probably have 200 cards in my binder just for my GB Pox.
Good luck with building, we are here to help and learn,
Josh
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=11641&f=LE
This b/w list got 1st out of 83.
Ok, that b/w list looks like a blast. a touch aggressive for my taste, but very fun starting point.
also, one thing that i'm not getting: why do people go with the full graveyard exiling effects over the rest of your surgical or extirpates? personally, I feel like there's always something specific that I just never want to see again as opposed to just grabbing a club and hoping i get an opportunity to hit them with it.
that big pox at the board though..Quote:
Originally Posted by mykatdied
Armageddon vs Miracles. Nice
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
true..
and miracles is also one of the few matches where i like big pox..
they have very few 3cmc spells in their deck, if im not mistaken its only vendillion clique and monastery mentor, and maybe a lone Izzet Staticaster at the side so its likely to resolve..big pox is also good in keeping them off 4 mana to prevent them from casting jace or entreat the angels..
I really like the list. Not sure I like the lack of urborg or flagstones since those have been soo good for me in my bw builds. Plus turn 2 you can flagstones, urborg smallpox discarding ghast and trigger stones to recur ghast and not get set back a land. Otherwise seems sweet to me. Would love to chat with the pilot if he sees this.
On top of my head most miracles list will also contain council's judgement and entreat the angels as other 3's, there should be 1-2 more potential cards they could have in sideboardQuote:
Originally Posted by zenitramleirdag
Luckily for me, my other deck is RUG Lands so I have the Tabernacle.Quote:
Originally Posted by jredelstein
Do you have a decklist I could look at? Preferably what your current list is. I just want to compare and contrast as many I can so I can proxy something up and see if I like it or not.
One sideboard card that I've latched onto is Engineered Plague over Pernicious Deed. I still play one deed main, but its often too slow where plague does some immediate work.
Current list, but I haven't played it on a few months:
4x vampire hexmage
4x smallpox
3x inquisition of kozilek
3x thoughtseize
2x hymn to tourach
3x liliana of the veil
1x garruk relentless
3x abrupt decay
1x pernicious deed
1x maelstrom pulse
4x crop rotation
2x sylvan library
3x life from the loam
4x verdant catacombs
1x marsh flats
1x windswept heath
1x bayou
3x swamp
2x forest
4x urborg
3x barren moor
4x wasteland
1x dark depths
1x thespians stage
1x cabal pit
Sideboard
3x engineered plague
2x krosan grip
2x surgical extraction
2x choke
2x disfigure
1x glacial chasm
1x bojuka bog
2x pithing needle
I've essentially swapped out mishras factory and bloodghast/spirit for hexmages. They allow for quick combos with rotation, have first strike so they block well, and they basically preboard against opposing pws. There are other fringe benefits (hosing chalice and ratchet bomb) but they still just beat for 2 with a nut draw into rotation ending games fast. The lands look funny...but I minimize opposing wasteland effectiveness and I can have better odds against blood moon, hence the 5 basics and only one bayou.
http://mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=88&meta=16&f=LEQuote:
Originally Posted by blubberpompnao
Contains a lot of old lists, there is at least my new lists here, I made some small uppdates but I usually change about 1 card per week
oh yeah, i overlooked that..thanks Toxboy..Quote:
Originally Posted by Toxboy
So, am I the only one that looked at the open this weekend and thought that it might be time to start finding room for Pox again?
Nope, I will likely be sleeving up shardless pox for serious testing in the months coming up to SCG Worcester.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quitrex
Has anyone tried the eldrazi matchup? I want to try it but unsure how bad or good It is.
From what i seen it should a LOT of Cards that are really good vs them especially if they don't have chalice.
GB should be decent since we can always abrupt chalice giving us a clean answernif we need to
I have a friend who built about 71/75 Gerry's list from the open independently, and we jammed a few matches. From the way the eldrazi matchup seems to look, your primary angle of attack should be their mana. It's basically like playing against Mud, except they're faster and they're less resilient to edicts. They also periodically peel you off rituals and one mana hand disruption. I've found that the abrupt decay are more likely to point at the sphere of resistance effect than the chalice, unless they wise up and drop chalice on two. He was regularly in a position where Pox would have just dragged him all the way out of the game, kicking and screaming. Given that the metagame feels like it might be spiraling into a miracles/eldrazi/lands rock paper scissors variant, I feel like slotting one to two pox into the deck might not be a terrible thing, as long as you can keep your game against the rest of the field mostly even, and make sure your board can slaughter lands without losing a few choice tools for miracles. I also don't feel like Toxic Deluge or Damnation in the 75 is a terrible idea, even though I still like BSZ, because it feels like the more 'go wide' creature decks such as merfolk or goblins aren't terrible against the Eldrazi that might be cropping up. but that's just my two cents.
Black sun's zenith seems like a good meta call right now to me as well. At the very least if we are running top it does give us an additional reusable shuffle effect that can come back over and over again, especially in the longer grindy games.
what is this eldrazi deck you are speaking of?
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=99286, got second and put 3 more copies into the top 16.s