[Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

Just went back to the first post to re-read the original Deadguy list and Pikula's tournament report, and although the card pool and meta are totally different now, he still makes a lot of good points. One card in particular that seems to have gotten totally lost from the original list is Cursed Scroll. I remember when that card first came out it was just the nuts, and I'm wondering if it's still viable in more aggro-oriented lists. Obviously the activation cost makes it bad in multiples, so you would probably only want 2 in the deck, but it does act as reusable removal and reach.

I seriously need to start playtesting some of these things, I'm just driving myself crazy with different ideas and directions for the archetype.

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Originally Posted by Dick Cheese

Just went back to the first post to re-read the original Deadguy list and Pikula's tournament report, and although the card pool and meta are totally different now, he still makes a lot of good points. One card in particular that seems to have gotten totally lost from the original list is Cursed Scroll. I remember when that card first came out it was just the nuts, and I'm wondering if it's still viable in more aggro-oriented lists. Obviously the activation cost makes it bad in multiples, so you would probably only want 2 in the deck, but it does act as reusable removal and reach.

I seriously need to start playtesting some of these things, I'm just driving myself crazy with different ideas and directions for the archetype.

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Cursed scroll is pretty bad these days. It costs 4 to do two damage and thats only sure if you have one card in hand. 2 damage won't kill anything thats a problem really and won't kill anyone fast enough to help us.

I don't think a 3 mana recurring shock is any good in legacy anymore. Unfortunately, the power level is no longer there. Even burn does not play cursed scroll for reach. Sad, I loved that card. Anyway what about mox opal in the vial-stoneforge lists? It's a speed boost with no drawbacks since the deck has so many artifacts already. The manabase is 2 colour so the artifact lands should fit in fine. Here's what I want to try:

4 vial
4 stp
4 seize
1 jitte
1 sofi

4 mom
4 bob
4 stoneforge
3 sculler
3 revoker
4 avenger
2 jotun grunt

3 mox opal
4 vault of whispers
4 ancient den
3 scrubland
4 marsh flats
4 wasteland

I did nothing to my non land cards to accommodate the opals. We play scullers, revokers, vials and equipment. Since our artifact count is so high, I see no reason not to play opals.

Artifact
3 x Phyrexian Revoker
1 x Sword of Fire and Ice
1 x Sword of Light and Shadow
1 x Umezawa's Jitte

12Black
4 x Dark Confidant
4 x Hymn to Tourach
4 x Vampire Nighthawk

6Gold
4 x Tidehollow Sculler
2 x Vindicate

22Land
4 x Godless Shrine
1 x Plains
4 x Scrubland
5 x Swamp
4 x Tainted Field
4 x Wasteland

14White
3 x Serra Avenger
3 x Stoneforge Mystic
4 x Swords to Plowshares
4 x Mother of Runes

A copy and paste of my deck. i became fascinated with the Stifle-proof mana base about 10 pages back and went that direction. Basically its impossible not to get the double black or double white. I think if i ran this list, Elspeth could be doable as a finisher, but where would i push her in?

I know Seize is better than Hymns, but seeing as i have 0 at the moment, i made do. Could make it IoK very easily tho.

Feel free to rip me a new one :)

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Originally Posted by ivanpei

... Anyway what about mox opal in the vial-stoneforge lists? It's a speed boost with no drawbacks since the deck has so many artifacts already. The manabase is 2 colour so the artifact lands should fit in fine...

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Test it. I like the idea of the accelleration, I think this deck could use it. However, I like to have at least 3 basic lands in the deck to fetch out if I need to avoid wasteland, but mox opal may help against wasteland...I dunno, I'm a little hesitant to use them though because of the legendary status. I know they are great in fast combo decks, but in a deck that is trying to play longer games they could end up being awful topdecks and/or blanks. On the other hand if you're accellerating in the early turns you may not have to worry about the late game because you're already finishing people. It seems like it would be good as long as you got a vial in your opener, but questionable otherwise.

There is also play order to consider. Personally, if I'm going to try and push through an early vial I want to lead with discard (preferably duress or thoughtsieze), but in order to bring the Mox on line you need to play the vial first and then play your discard spell - which seems a bit counter-intuitive. Also, if the vial does get countered then the mox doesn't come on line. (also, all of this assumes a turn 1 artifact land). Generally, there seems like there could be some awkward plays...so again, playtest it.

Ultimately it comes down to whether running vial and another piece of accelleration will push the deck far enough into aggro - or whether it will just destroy our reach in the late game.

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Originally Posted by Parax

...i became fascinated with the Stifle-proof mana base about 10 pages back and went that direction. Basically its impossible not to get the double black or double white. I think if i ran this list, Elspeth could be doable as a finisher, but where would i push her in?

I know Seize is better than Hymns, but seeing as i have 0 at the moment, i made do. Could make it IoK very easily tho.

Feel free to rip me a new one :)

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It's stifle proof, but wasteland weak. I'm seeing less and less stifle, and when I do see it people tend to keep them on hand against my Scullers, wastelands, and equipment. If stifle is pervasive in your meta though I guess it could be a good call....bottom line though, it's not like you're making stifle into a dead card for them. Also, most of the decks running stifle also run wasteland, so you're hurting yourself pretty bad there too. Everyone's meta is different though. Personally I'd go to 4 basics and 4 fetches and ditch the Taint's and Shock lands...but that's just me.

Where do finishers go? In the stoneforge slots. Right now you run 3 equipment and 3 SFM - run 2 of each...light and shadow is iffy anyway. You could also easilly cut a revoker or Tidehollow sculler (but I'd keep the sculler since you're already at 8 discard spells...less than that is questionable IMHO). Or you could cut Serra Avenger since she is basically acting as a finisher now as well. If you really want to figure out what to cut, look at each card individually and ask yourself what purpose it serves - Stall, disruption, aggro, card advanatage, finisher - and just replace a couple finisher slots with a new finisher.

Hymn, thoughtseize, duress, IoK, cabal therapy - a page or 2 back CorpT and I kinda whent back and forth on discards spells and discussed some of these at length. However, I classify discard just like any other card in the deck:

1. Discard as Stall. You can use it to disrupt curve in an opponent's hand, either taking their next play or taking mana accelleration.

2. Discard as Disruption. You can use it to pull combo pieces from an opponents hand and delay them so that you can establish a clock.

3. Discard as Aggro. You can use it to lure out counters or take counters or disruption out of your opponent's hand before casting something game-breaking.

4. Discard as Card Advantage. Some discard spells take multiple cards for the cost of one, or in some cases you pull discard against a player that has aggressively mulled into a threat-light, or mana source-light hand, essentially playing into your discard.

5. Discard as a Finisher. I don't know of any spells off the top of my head that fit in this category...maybe Mind Twist or Mind Shatter, maybe.

I take a lot of time when I cast a discard spell, and I almost never end up writing down the cards that are revealed. I think people generally believe that I take so long because I'm memorizing the cards, but generally I'm thinking about my hand and my approach to the game more than I'm thinking about my opponent's individual cards - I'm trying to decide what I need my discard spell to do in order to win. I think a lot of opponent's think I'm an idiot after they pick up their cards and I immediately say "wait, what was in there again", but that's because what's in their hand is often less important to me than what deck they are playing and what is in my hand...and how I need to play my deck in order to take the best possible route to victory. When I playtest I try and use my discard for each primary function that I expect it to serve in this deck (stall, disruption, aggro) so that i can determine what is the best approach in any given matchup. This is less about what discard spell I'm using and more about matchups and how I'm using the cards I have in my deck...but it's still important to talk about.

In most of the situations where discard is really good for our deck you either need to get really f'in lucky with random discard (like hymn) or you need to be able to pick the card you take. Also, in most of these situations you need cheap discard, especially if you're trying to play 2 spells a turn in the early turns - so 1 cmc discard is preferable. Don't get me wrong, hymn offers a nice outlet for card advantage when you're playing an attrition game against other midrange decks, and sometimes you get really lucky and pick exactly what you need to - but generally it does't get you to where you need to be, it's just too narrow. Also, discard that reveals an opponent's hand makes Revoker better. Since I so rarely take creatures with thoughtseize (these days), I'd suggest duress as a straight replacement since it can fit most of the categories that thoughtseize does. If you're just looking for card advantage Hymn is the right card, or maybe Verdict...but I don't think that is the role that discard generally serves in Deadguy (amymore) since we have bob, equipment, and stoneforge mystic to fill those roles for us.

I really don't care for Serra Avenger, she's easy to get rid of and doesn't really provide any kind of utility, very important in a list full of little guys. The only real benefit I see from her is not having to step up Vial to 3 to drop something like nighthawk or a crusader.

As for Mox Opal, I won't write it off completely until someone tests it, but my guess is that it's going to be fairly limited in usefulness. Ideally you'll go artifact land, vial, mox, but I bet a lot of the time you'll have to wait until turn 2 to get it online with a Revoker or Sculler, and with a curve that stops at 2 and Vials, what's the point then? Also artifact lands seriously open you up to Wasteland and the plethora of cheap artifact hate that's available.

I wouldn't use Mox Opal...but I would consider Lotus Petal if you were considering using Tombstalker. It helps fill your graveyard and gives you extra gas in the early game when you need to be slinging your disruption.

It's a thought...and if anyone is debating using Bitterblossom, a turn 1 BB is pretty damn nice...

Turn 1 bob is pretty good too - I especially like this play because if he lives (even for one turn) your accelleration is no longer card disadvantage. I would immagine that in a deck that is lacking 1 drops that this would be a fantastic option. Honestly though, if I was going to use one-time use mana accell, it would probably have to be dark ritual - I mean it's one more mana for essentially the same cost since the deck is predominately black. If the deck had more non-black lands in it I might consider petal.

Yes opal will only be online t1 with a vial but that's not where its most valuable. Even on t2 of revoker/sculler/artifact lands its still 3 mana on turn 2 which sticks around for artifact equipping. IMO I like mox because it really helps you cast and equip fast. Sometimes having equipment active 1 turn earlier can win you the game by itself. Being turned on by equipment and using the mana to equip is pretty good. The following plays are pretty likely:

T1 vial, artifact land, opal, thoughtseize/mom

T2 stoneforge mystic + 1cc spell

T3 cast jitte, equip, swing!

Or

T1 land, thoughtseize/mom,

T2 artifact land, revoker/sculler, mox, 1cc spell

T3 stoneforge, cast equipment

T4 equip, swing.

Though losing basics is pretty crappy. That's usually the strength f a 2 colour deck. Vein explosive is equally important too though.

With all this equipment, revokers, vials, now lands and opal, I fear we may be opening ourselves up to artifact hate.

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Originally Posted by bokwinkle

Turn 1 bob is pretty good too - I especially like this play because if he lives (even for one turn) your accelleration is no longer card disadvantage. I would immagine that in a deck that is lacking 1 drops that this would be a fantastic option. Honestly though, if I was going to use one-time use mana accell, it would probably have to be dark ritual - I mean it's one more mana for essentially the same cost since the deck is predominately black. If the deck had more non-black lands in it I might consider petal.

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I guess I was trying to think of a way to make sure you could settle white on your first turn, too. Honestly, there aren't any turn 1-2 white plays. Dark Ritual may be the 'missing link' to Bob + Tombstalke or Bob + Percyr...it can also make for a turn 1 Nighthawk. What Lotus Petal does is settle white mana a little better in the mid-late game, whereas Dark Ritual mid-game (when you only have Swamps and you need to cast Swords) is dead.

I'm not sure if you would see it very often, but Chalice @ 1 would really slow us down. It turns off our removal (Swords) and disruption (Thoughtseize) and Dark Ritual...making Ritual a dead card beyond turn 1 (and that's on the PLAY, we could STILL be hosed on the draw.) Most decks porting Chalice (Stompy & Staxx variants) don't set Chalice at 0 for unknown matchups...it's usually 1, and then their 2nd one goes to 2 against aggro and control, 0 against combo.

In a nutshell: Ritz make Tombstalker and Percy easier, but is susceptable to Chalice. Petal provides white mana in the mid-late game against a Waste-lock and skirts around Chalice fairly easily, but only provides 1 mana. Both allow for some impressive turn 1 plays.

Last thought: if you're playing Aether Vial and you have Vial and Dark Ritz in your opener, which one do you play? In some cases Ritz, but only if you have targeted discard + Bob available so you can get info. BUT, if you're playing against control, you realllllly want that turn 1 Vial. I HATE that kind of mental chaos...it opens up for a less linear (and more risky) style of play.

Ritz + Vial opener? Play them both...and bob. Ritual doesn't make play decisions more difficult in most cases, it just makes things easier. The only reason i'd want extra white mana in this deck is...well, i can't think of one - and that's saying something. SFM is a late-game card, Sculler might see an early play if he's my only discard, but I can usually find one white mana between the fetches and duals.

There are basically just 3 cards that I want to accelerate with tihs deck - percy, nighthawk, and bob (and nighthawk is questionable). i have no desire to cast an early SFM because I usually want my mana free in the early game to play control (swords, vindicate, discard, etc). I typically only want to play SFM to finish the game once I've established board position, or if I need Jitte to establish board position. Playing SFM early doesn't gain me much, because if I play him on turn 2, and equipment on turn 3, and equip on turn 4 I've basically done nothing for 4 turns - which simply isn't good in legacy. Even if I have mana accell in there to equip on turn 3, I still have to equip to SFM - a 1/2 with no evasion? Great, so he'll die, then I'll have to play another creature on turn 4 who can't equip and attack until turn 5. Playing early SFM is never a good plan.

Late game ritual...I've never (or maybe once in 100 games) had it be dead in my testing. The combination of our opponent's Daze and wasteland's, combined with our own wastelands generally mean that our deck is pretty mana hungry. Plus, bob and SFM give us very good outlets for our mana. Additionally, if you run Percy and Gatekeeper the curve of the deck is actually pretty steep.

And...chalice is aweful for us. I've played against angel stompy and it's just a bad MU for us with or without ritual. I guess vial would help significantly, but I hate vial...so yeah. At least with ritual it comes down to a dice roll instead of just an aweful MU. Generally if I go turn 1 Rit, Seize, bob against any deck they will probably loose - because I will take their one piece of removal and bob will just sit there and own them through CA.

had the same ideas a couple of days ago, going more in the direction of BW "The Gate"

here's my list, had not much time to test till now, cause I have important exams on friday

4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
6 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Bloodstained Mire

4 Dark Confidant
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Abyssal Persecutor

3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Vindicate
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual

Sideboard
2 Extirpate
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Engineered Plague
2 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ravenous Trap
2 Perish


changes aren't that big
going down to 20 Lands and up to 3 Tops.
With Inclusion of Dark Ritual 22 seemed to much, in exchange 1 more top to dig for lands if you need them. 2 Tops means only Pay 1, draw a card, as I am playing 8 fetches + SFM. Wastelands are not included for several reasons, first I don't have any and don't know anyone to lend them, second the deck is heavy on colors (Gatekeeper especially) and third, my curve is a bit high and I don't want to blow up a land on most occasions.
Only 2 SFM
With adding Percy, SFM is not that important to me, plus he is not castable with Ritual. I didn't drop one equipment as it is useful sometimes to fetch SoLaS as well (that would be the obvious choices for cutting). Maybe I will drop it for the new Sword.
2 Percys
Everything has been sad above. In my opinion he is superior to Tombstalker. And on Turn 2 with Ritz really scary^^


Sideboard is pretty random. I tried to split up my gravehate a bit, to make it more difficult to play around, especially on G3 (where it goes most times against Dredge). Sculler + Canonist is my Combohate, over Thorn cause they can beat (yes like bears, but with Ad Nauseam it can count if he started on 18 or 16 Life...) Plague is obvious tribalhate and it is nuts with Dark Ritual. Extirpate is hate for everything a bit (would love to play 2-3 Main, but no slots -.-)

On the topic of Mox Opal and artifact lands: I like acceleration but I don't like the idea of the artifact lands. Null Rod is good and should be played in the SB and this makes Null Rod not only unplayable but also really good against you. It also makes Wasteland that much better.

Like I said I play a similar deck and run Null Rod in the board, if you include the Mox and lands Null Rod will shut off a ton of your mana, which coupled with Wasteland could very easily lock you out, Aether Vial, and equipment. I don't think losing Aether Vial or equipment matters as much in the matches where you would bring in NR becuase most of the time it will completely shut down the opposing deck or at least stall them a while. It's pure win against Affinity and MeanDeck MUD and it's really good against TES/ANT and Belcher (provided you get a second turn).

I'm sure it's been discussed, but what about an Enlightened Tutor board? I know board space is tight, it always is, but even if you run 2 E Tutor and a bunch of singletons it effectively gives you three of each target. I know that it's worse than drawing the hate on almost anything but the first turn, but it gives you much more flexibility.

This is a list I've been running on Cockatrice with some success, especially against aggro:


1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Dark Confidant
4 Soul Warden
4 Soul's Attendant
4 Stoneforge Mystic

4 BitterBlossom
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Innocent Blood
4 Thoughtseize
3 Vindicate
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant

4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Plains
5 Swamp


Offsetting the lifeloss from Bob/BB greatly improves the matchup against Merfolk and Goblins, as does SFM package. Zoo can still be close because it's so fast and has lots of reach with burn. I need to do more testing though, I have a feeling it's going to be a tough matchup against CB and combo, although Canonist and Leyline of Sanctity in the board could help that.

I applaud you for trying something different, but Soul Warden and Soul's Attendant are really, really weak on their own.
In your testing, have 19 lands proven to be enough? I could see that being a problem with Elspeth.

They are weak on their own, and I'm still waiting to test against something with mass removal. They rarely eat any removal though, just because they seem like a waste of removal and because it's not uncommon for me to drop 2-3 early on. Even though they're 1/1's, they can carry equipment and are a good sac target for Innocent Blood in a pinch.

So far land hasn't been an issue, maybe I'm just getting good draws because I run 20+ in other decks and open with 1-land hands all the time. With 20 spells at CMC1, the curve is pretty low. Elspeth is def. more of a mid-late game card anyway, and between life gain/removal, I haven't found it hard to get to that point.

"Rarely eat removal because they're not good enough to get removed" and "good sac target for innocent blood" aren't really strong arguments for the inclusion of a creature. I can't imagine what your metagame would have to look like in order to justify playing those cards over a card like Mother of Runes for example.

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Originally Posted by GUnit

"Rarely eat removal because they're not good enough to get removed" and "good sac target for innocent blood" aren't really strong arguments for the inclusion of a creature. I can't imagine what your metagame would have to look like in order to justify playing those cards over a card like Mother of Runes for example.

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If those were the criteria I was basing my decisions on, I would just be running Ornithopters and Kobolds.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

I guess I was trying to think of a way to make sure you could settle white on your first turn, too. Honestly, there aren't any turn 1-2 white plays. Dark Ritual may be the 'missing link' to Bob + Tombstalke or Bob + Percyr...it can also make for a turn 1 Nighthawk. What Lotus Petal does is settle white mana a little better in the mid-late game, whereas Dark Ritual mid-game (when you only have Swamps and you need to cast Swords) is dead.

Last thought: if you're playing Aether Vial and you have Vial and Dark Ritz in your opener, which one do you play? In some cases Ritz, but only if you have targeted discard + Bob available so you can get info. BUT, if you're playing against control, you realllllly want that turn 1 Vial. I HATE that kind of mental chaos...it opens up for a less linear (and more risky) style of play.

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How many lands would you play in a deck with Vials + Rituals? My initial instinct is that it's not smart to play both, but you could make up the high number of lousy topdecks by cutting some land. Running Bob and Tombstalker in Deadguy sounds like a completely different deck, that's leaning toward Evagreen or Dark Horizons territory, since those decks win faster than Deadguy and thus are able to take a hit from 8 off Bob+Tombdaddy more easily. Plus, Percy can block opposing Tombstalkers or 5/6 goyfs, and equipment+trample+flying is pretty slick.

I'm thinking the new Cancellor is def. going to need some testing in a more aggro deadguy build. Still only take 4 off Bob, but you don't need to worry about running a ton of sac effects. He'll require an almost mono-black build though, and probably removal of Wasteland.

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Originally Posted by Dick Cheese

This is a list I've been running on Cockatrice with some success, especially against aggro:


1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Dark Confidant
4 Soul Warden
4 Soul's Attendant
4 Stoneforge Mystic

4 BitterBlossom
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Innocent Blood
4 Thoughtseize
3 Vindicate
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant

4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Plains
5 Swamp


Offsetting the lifeloss from Bob/BB greatly improves the matchup against Merfolk and Goblins, as does SFM package. Zoo can still be close because it's so fast and has lots of reach with burn. I need to do more testing though, I have a feeling it's going to be a tough matchup against CB and combo, although Canonist and Leyline of Sanctity in the board could help that.

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So there's a couple things I want to say about this list. First I think lifegain is drastically undervalued across all formats. it makes combat math and combo calculations very difficult and sometimes impossible, it's just very good in a lot of situations. Also, there are interactions here I like - Elspeth and SFM are very good here...they are very good at making "bad" creatures good. Lastly, i like that the list allows for some additional equipment, there are many times when I play my list when I really something different for equipment.

Ultimately I think the deck has a high dependance on the interactions, so it could be pretty easilly disrupted. In the end I think that you've sacrificed a lot of versatility with your answers (some discard and removal) in order to add lifegain to the deck. The result is the same - a longer game where you stabalize board position. But I tihnk it opens you up to some bad matchups.

Lastly - people keep talking about zoo, fish, and goblins as if we need to improve those matchups...I just don't see it. Personally, I'm more worried about Combo than any aggro deck. With 10 maindeck removal spells, and 8-10 maindeck discard spells we should really have no issue with any of these decks...there are only a few key cratuers that we need to kill in these matches in order to win, and we can get there pretty easilly. My suggestion is that if you're having a difficult time against these lists that you just test more - aim for lords, and be sure to Run Perish for "big zoo" (GSZ, hierarch, KotR, Goyf builds). Hontestly, my success against Fish and goblins is one of the main reasons I run this deck - becausre i can beat them and still play wasteland to face off against rock and zoo. I've faced very few creature decks that represent any issues for the deck.

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Originally Posted by Dick Cheese

I'm thinking the new Cancellor is def. going to need some testing in a more aggro deadguy build. Still only take 4 off Bob, but you don't need to worry about running a ton of sac effects. He'll require an almost mono-black build though, and probably removal of Wasteland.

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I'm having a difficult time justifying the removal of Sculler and wasteland so that I can play this guy, when i can just run Percy and gain evasion and turn up the clock. I'm not saying I'm right to write this guy off, but I'm just not there yet.

With my "stifle-proof" mana base everythin in my deck makes black except one plains and wasteland. I think it could easily make it into my build and have no problem hardcasting it, or getting BB up to cast it off a ritual. I was just thinking about that tonight at work, removing Avenger for the Cancellor would be awesome sauce.

Hey,
i was rly pissed off.
First, my mana base was not really good.

1x Karakas
1x Urborg
4x Marsh Flats
4x Wasteland
1x Verdant Catacombs
4x Swamp
4x Srubland
1x Plains

I couldnt do anything with this manabase ( Thats not a reason that it is a bad one bokwinkle, it's just bad for my decklist )

So i had to change my manabase to this :

5x Swamp
3x Plains
4x Scrubland
4x Marsh Flats
4x Bloodstained Mire

I had no problems yesterday.

Now to my Non-land cards :

//Creatures 16
3x Gatekeeper of Malakir
2x Abyssal Persecutor
3x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Dark Confidant
4x Vampire Nighthawk

//Sorceries 15
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Duress
4x Hymn to Tourarch
4x Vindicate

//Instants 4
4x Swords to Plowshares

//Artifacts 5
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
2x Sensei's Diving Top

I won't list my Sideboard, because each meta is different.

I won against my friend from *The Gate* thread and it was a 2-1.
After this we had a next game 1-0.

I was really happy with my draw!

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Originally Posted by Greenpoe

How many lands would you play in a deck with Vials + Rituals? My initial instinct is that it's not smart to play both, but you could make up the high number of lousy topdecks by cutting some land. Running Bob and Tombstalker in Deadguy sounds like a completely different deck, that's leaning toward Evagreen or Dark Horizons territory, since those decks win faster than Deadguy and thus are able to take a hit from 8 off Bob+Tombdaddy more easily. Plus, Percy can block opposing Tombstalkers or 5/6 goyfs, and equipment+trample+flying is pretty slick.

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I wouldn't play less than 20 lands period, especially considering Wasteland as a 0-cost land destruction spell and not really a land. If you're using Vial (and maybe SDT's) then Wasteland can be a little more effectice as a land to provide mana and 20 is a good number. If you're NOT using Vials and are leaning towards Ritz, I would play a minimum of 21 lands and make sure all of them provided black mana.

My point with Bokwinkle about choosing which to play on turn 1, Ritz or Vial, was more directed towards the control matchup. If you're playing against blue, if they have Force in hand, they'll use it on Vial for sure. If you're on the draw and they have an Island in play and a Daze in hand, they will counter the Dark Ritual, it doesn't make sense to wait for when they have the mana to pay for it. So my point is this: whoever wins the die roll makes a significant difference in play strategy. If you're on the draw and they have an Island, I wouldn't play Dark Ritual on the first turn. I'd try and play Thoughtseize. If you don't have Thoughtseize and only Vial or Ritz, what do you do? Do you attempt it or do you wait? Dark Ritual can open up a situation where you get 2-for-1-ed. Vial is a 1-for-1 trade if countered, and most likely your only chance for winning against a deck with countermagic. If you're using Lotus Petal (which they won't counter, most likely...) you have mana open to prevent the Daze situation without too much risk. You have the 1 available and Lotus Petal becomes a 0 cost Daze-counterspell in effect. This is why I support Petal over Dark Ritual. Petal helps offset the lack of black mana from Wasteland while also getting down uncountered most of the time. Dark Ritual opens you up to card disadvantage, more so than Lotus Petal. Just my opinion here...take it or leave it.

In a nutshell, if you want Percy, play Dark Ritz. If you want Vial, you need an almost all-bear approach and Lotus Petal helps you with get bears down turn 1 and skirt Daze. If you want neither, curve out better with threats from 1-3 mana. I'd suggest 21 lands in a buld with Percy, too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bokwinkle

Lastly - people keep talking about zoo, fish, and goblins as if we need to improve those matchups...I just don't see it. Personally, I'm more worried about Combo than any aggro deck. With 10 maindeck removal spells, and 8-10 maindeck discard spells we should really have no issue with any of these decks...there are only a few key cratuers that we need to kill in these matches in order to win, and we can get there pretty easilly. My suggestion is that if you're having a difficult time against these lists that you just test more - aim for lords, and be sure to Run Perish for "big zoo" (GSZ, hierarch, KotR, Goyf builds). Hontestly, my success against Fish and goblins is one of the main reasons I run this deck - becausre i can beat them and still play wasteland to face off against rock and zoo. I've faced very few creature decks that represent any issues for the deck.

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I've always had a tough time with Zoo. It seems like they run enough removal to handle all our guys, but more of their own guys than we have removal for, and sticking a Library just lets them play right through discard. Between pings from fetches, Bob, and Thoughtseize, it just takes them a couple swings to get you within burn range. The only times I win against Zoo are when I get perfect draws, early Ritual into discard, Wasteland to keep them off a color. Usually though that has to combine with them having terrible draws, which doesn't happen that often when your deck is just Burn, guys, and land. That being said, this is with an older list that didn't bother with SFM tech and Perish in the SB, maybe that just makes all the difference. Goblins and Merfolk were a bit better, but again it always seemed like a matter of always drawing well, if you can't disrupt early then start consistently dropping threats, they can bounce back pretty easily. Hitting a midgame Hymn against goblins is like shooting yourself in the foot, because they can topdeck a ringleader, draw 4 more guys, then dump them all the same turn.

And about lifegain, it's generally seen as not very good, but it makes a huge difference. Generating blockers and life off Bitterblossom is really annoying, and it lets me do crazy things like have two Bobs in play and still beat Goblins sitting on 26 life. Also helps against Storm combo, just by forcing them to get higher storm count, and also giving you way more time against EtW.

I beat Goblins and some NO-Pro list yesterday with it, but I'm not finding many control/combo matchups on Cockatrice, I think it's just a pain in the ass dealing with the interface and more complex interactions I guess.

I'm not suggesting that this is the way the Deck should go, it's just an idea that has so far had better results than I expected, so I thought I'd share. If the meta is going to shift to Spiral Tide and CB, then obviously this isn't going to fair well.

@bokwinkle

Whats your current list?

Edit: Also decided I'm taking out mother of runes in my sfm based list. I read Matt Elias article over on SCG today and he was hating on mother of runes. So I sat down and thought about it and you know what, shes bad in most of our matches. Even in the ones shes good in, shes not gamebreaking or anything. Not sure how I'm going to restructure the list but shes out I know. I was running 3x btw.

good to hear someone else has rallied to the "hate mom" cause. lol. The list that I'm currently running that is "most tested" is as follows:

20 lands
1 Karakas
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
1 Plains
4 Swamp

21 creatures
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Dark Confidant
3 Abyssal Persecutor
3 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Phrexian Revoker

2 artifacts
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

17 Control
4 Dark ritutal
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize
1 Diabolic Edict
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vindicate

Sideboard
3 Perish
3 Engineered Plague
4 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Mindbreak Trap


I'm currently testing a host of other cards and/or lists, but this is my "tried and true" list that I've actually had success with locally. The board is pretty close for most meta's I think (Canonist, Plague, and Perish are pretty universal), the Edict and Trap spots are generally flex spots in the board.

I know that the mana base can give some people fits, but I haven't had any issues with it (yet) as far as color screw or quantitiy - but I'm also lucky enough to randomly topdeck my Karakas against Emmy decks...so, I'd test before I used it.

Generally it's an 'ok' starting point though.

now that cards are starting to be spoiled from the new set, I'm curious as to what people think may effect us.

Is the R/W sword as good as everyone was hoping? How many equipment should we run now?

Will the new Free Counterspell absolutely destroy us? Or, is it worth running somewhere in our 75?

Free Extirpate better than just plain old Extirpate? Do we even run Extirpate now that the Free counterspell is around and combo may take a nose-dive? How many sideboard slots should we be dedicating to combo for the GP with the shake-up by the new set?

Will free spells slow down the meta or make it faster? Does our deck get better or worse?

I think the sword is good for the protection colors, but can't stop removal in response to equipping so maybe pointless. It's secondary abilities are so conditional that I'm inclined to just ignore them. You might have one swing that is just nuts, and another that does nothing. I think SoFI is probably the best option, then the rest in no particular order. I think I'll probably go with Feast/Famine because it gives you a persistent threat to their hand, with protection from KotR/Goyf.

Mental Misstep (free counter) is getting a ton of hype right now, although personally I think it will be of limited use outside T1, but is it really good enough T1 to take up four spots trying to get one in your opener? I do think it's going to see play though, and will make Vial significantly less good. Honestly in recent testing I haven't found Vial to be that hot anyway, even in lists that have been tweaked to try and abuse it as much as possible. In most situations I've just felt like it dilutes the T1 plays, and would rather have Ritual back.

Surgical Extraction is good, but not better than Extirpate if you're already playing black. Reanimator and combo run proactive protection like chant/duress anyway so it's really only going to save you from getting blown out by Dredge on the play. Uncounterable seems better in most situations IMO. I think Extirpate is extremely undervalued. It really shines against control, removing their counters or even keeping people off a color (if you run Waste), or removing threats from lists that rely on 4-8 big beaters to win.

Yeah, anyone posted a comment :)

I don't think we can use this new Sword because its abilities aren't usable because of discard.
You gain life and the enemies lose life. But normally they shouldn't have any cards in his or her hand.

Personally i would run this free counter in our sideboard because several decks are running cc1-cards and it's a big advantage to slow them down.

Free extirpate is nice, but as Richard Cheese already said:

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Uncounterable seems better in most situations

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Btw, i'm again thinking about a little green splash. Saw at Youtube a Deadguy deck with green ( no list -.- )
And i like it more and more.

K1w1 :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by K1w1

Btw, i'm again thinking about a little green splash. Saw at Youtube a Deadguy deck with green ( no list -.- )
And i like it more and more.

K1w1 :)

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If you are thinking about adding colors and good cards to the deck with almost no downside, you should probably check out another thread as that is not tolerated here. I would suggest here.

nope..

SoWaP is life based on cards in your hand, so bob will fuel the swords lifegain. Cos of the the low mana curve the Sword MIGHT make it quite easy to sustain multiple bobs active at the same time. Can see the damage effect do alot of pressure on my opponent just to lower the damage he will take extra from the sword. Even if it only does 4 damage it still pretty much makes our clock 2 times as fast, while lowering their clock depending on how many cards we are holding in our hand currently. Think its gonna be quite hard for decks like zoo wich are going down on burn for Zenith. Active Sword on Nighthawk is pretty much game over, almost impossible to outrace that if you are keeping a hand of 7 + draws from drawstep + bobs. Should Defenetly be tested out, I for one will :P

For the equipements I really like Jitte, Sofaf and SoFaI, Tested body and mind as well its works out quite well. Gives bodies, protection from most bigger creatures in combat but also protection from Merfolk creatures and Jace and Sower of Temptation.

For SoLaS I rather have that in my board. Not very often I want that equipment compared to SOFAF, Jitte or SOFAI.

Link to video?

So I'm worried about mental mistep leading to an increase in counter-top strategies, since vial was one of it's biggest issues. i'm not worried about mistep itself, per se.

Never had much trouble against CB, although I used to always run Tombstalker (because I'm apparently just that fucking crazy). Game 1 is rough, but bring in Extirpate for 2 and 3 and nail FoW with it as early as possible. They also tend to be super light on threats, so if you can get a goyf in the yard, or even trop and Extirpate either of those, you've bought yourself gobs of time.

I'm more worried about Bant lists, as they tend to run a pretty strong counter suite, but with more and bigger dudes than CB, ditto for Team America. Whether misstep will make it into those lists (possibly replacing spell snare?) is yet to be seen though.

With Mental Misstep on our doorstep right now, and a possibilty of a resurgence of CB, is it time to bring back Unmask? It easily dodges both of the problems, unlike all the other discard that we are running at the moment (Hymn dodges Misstep but most don't play it)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bokwinkle

Will free spells slow down the meta or make it faster? Does our deck get better or worse?

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The biggest buzz is over Mental Misstep...which will be a great addition to legacy, for sure. Surgical Extraction is solid tech as well, but I think what most folks are forgetting is this: it isn't ALWAYS the best play to pay 2 life instead of B or U. They are cheap to begin with, and sometimes free. THIS is what makes them so damn good, not just the free aspect. They still belong in their constituent colors (U and B) or decks where they would already get played (like Extirpate and Daze)

I see Mental Misstep being a lot closer to Daze than Force of Will...because of the early game aspect of it. I like what it can do against TES/ANT when they Duress/Orim's Chant before combo-ing out...I'm just not sure if it's worth the slots. Daze bounces an Island...MM digs you for 2 life to be free. It's a toss up...but I think overall everyone will agree that Daze is better, especailly against decks that tap out. I still see Spell Pierce as thte best compliment counterspell to Daze, because folks play around Daze with a spare land up, but Pierce can offset that by forcing them to have 2 spare lands up. Virtual Card Advantage wins over free counterspells imho...especially considering the speed of the format changing (I think it's slowing down a little bit...look at zoo with GSZ, and the Gate instead of Suicide Black...)

well, there's a lot of discussion on Mistep throughout the the "magic world"...generally the consensus that I'm seeing among more professional players is for non-control decks running mistep is "you still have to remove relevant cards from your deck to include countermagic", and the consensus for control decks is "we don't really need more counters".

Among "non-pro's" I feel like many people have already decided it's just good and they are going to run it in any deck they make. There are many people that say "every legacy deck just became 56 cards".

Honestly, like most new cards, I think that the reality is somewhere in the middle. It's obviously a good card, how played it is will remain to be seen. It will be everywhere at the GP though, especially in Day 1. At the very least it counters all of our discard (unless you run hymn) and Swords - at it's worst it counters Mom, Vial, Dark Ritual and all of the discard and swords. Bottom line, this card is not good for us. It's not as bad for us as it is for a deck like ANT or Reanimator, but it's bad.

The extraction...I'm not sold on for black decks. Generally, by the time you want to use extirpate you have the 1 black mana you need for it, and uncounterable is just huge - especially when the CMC is 1 (see above).

The card I'm kind of excited about is Dismember:

1-PB-PB
Instant
Target creature gets -5/-5 until end of turn.

For 1 colorless and 4 life you can kill pretty much any creature in legacy that can be targeted - at instant speed. Plus it's 3 CMC gets around a lot of counterbalance strategies. I think this is going to be a solid piece of removal for a lot of decks. It's not an ideal fit for our deck because we already have acess to swords and vindicate, but for decks in colors with very little removal options (U/g or U, or G) I think this card will shine. Even in black decks this card may see play...we'll see.