[Deck] Fetchland Tendrils

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Originally Posted by Kathal

Although, Kidbails list looks already nice (I wouldn't play the Lab Man in the main and I would play a MD CoV).

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I've found that either is fine. Chain of vapor I think is better at beating hate and lab man gives you the option for a faster pass the turn pile. I think it might be more important in a version without burning wish because we lose the option to make a pass the turn pile featuring time spiral, but I don't think that's a primary reason to have lab man instead. We still have the double doomsday option, I'm just terrible with double doomsday piles. Personal preference mostly.

This is what I'm running as a start. Similar to my sketch and close to Kidbails.

Business
4x Doomsday
1x Dark Petition
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Ideas Unbound

Cantrips
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Sensei's Divining Top

Mana
4x Dark Ritual
1x Rain of Filth
1x Cabal Ritual
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
2x Lotus Petal

Protection
4x Silence
2x Duress
1x Cabal Therapy
1x Chain of Vapor

Lands
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
3x Underground Sea
1x Tundra
1x Scrubland
1x Island
1x Swamp
1x Plains
1x Karakas

-Sideboard-
2x Tropical Island
2x Xantid Swarm
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Dread of Night
2x Flusterstorm
1x Infernal Contract
1x Duress
1x Lab Maniac

Going to test it a bunch soon. So far I haven't felt like I needed a 2nd Dark Petition but time will tell. The board is just a guess but I want to consider more options that also take advantage of Doomsday and hopefully fill the void of Wish --> Empty and Wish -->Time Sprial that I used often. Although, finding Doomsday more often may do that. It's fun trying the new card out.

I don't see why you would want to ruin your mana-base to run Silence, when Therapy+Probe/other discard combos so nicely. I'd be inclined to go -4 Silence, +3 Cabal Therapy, -1 Lotus Petal, +2 Dig through Time. Since you're not going for quick LED>Wish taking out Petals is a decent idea for a better late-game.

Then you can go -1 Scrubland, -1 Tundra, -1 Plains, +1 Island, +1 Swamp, +1 Underground Sea for a super-solid mana-base, and you still have Karakas.

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Originally Posted by Kanti

I don't see why you would want to ruin your mana-base to run Silence, when Therapy+Probe/other discard combos so nicely. I'd be inclined to go -4 Silence, +3 Cabal Therapy, -1 Lotus Petal, +2 Dig through Time. Since you're not going for quick LED>Wish taking out Petals is a decent idea for a better late-game.

Then you can go -1 Scrubland, -1 Tundra, -1 Plains, +1 Island, +1 Swamp, +1 Underground Sea for a super-solid mana-base, and you still have Karakas.

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Considering I just cut red from that manabase, I'm feeling great! The mana is totally fine.

Silence vs discard has been debated in Doomsday for a while and theres plenty of posts on the pluses / minuses. I recently tried Silence and am not looking back.

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Originally Posted by the driver

Considering I just cut red from that manabase, I'm feeling great! The mana is totally fine.

Silence vs discard has been debated in Doomsday for a while and theres plenty of posts on the pluses / minuses. I recently tried Silence and am not looking back.

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What about Orim's Chant instead of Silence?

It's basically choosing between having the ability to kick Orim's Chant and being able to cast your protection against opponents who can't be targeted.

Why now no one is building a dig version of doomsday. And even more if your not playing a cabal full version ?

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Originally Posted by Togores

Why now no one is building a dig version of doomsday. And even more if your not playing a cabal full version ?

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You could run Cabal Ritual + Dark Petition or DTT + Street Wraith, but it looks like people in this thread still love SDT + Wish (+Silence) for whatever reason. Not worth your time Rodrigo and neither mine.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

You could run Cabal Ritual + Dark Petition or DTT + Street Wraith, but it looks like people in this thread still love SDT + Wish (+Silence) for whatever reason. Not worth your time Rodrigo and neither mine.

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I get that you love to try to start arguments, but people are testing with cabal ritual + dark petition as we speak. It's been posted in this thread as well as stormboards. Also, most wish/SDT lists are running discard, not silence.

Don't see why you would ever cut SDT from the deck. From reading your past posts here all you do is bang on about SW, a card that you probably have never tested in the deck. Since you have last spoken about SW, how has it performed for you vs SDT? I can only agree with your sentiments on Silence.

Anyhow, yes, DTT deserves some shout-outs here, though the UU is rough.

It isn't like people here aren't open to change. It remains to be seen if Dark Petition is the real deal here and worth playing Cabal Rituals again. I'll certainly try it out and if it works out I'd be sad to see my Burning Wishes go. It's just a pretty tall order to justify Dig Through Time and Street Wraith over Sensei's Top and Burning Wish. I mean, I guess you're still playing the same number of cantrips if you switch out Tops for Wraiths, but I like the versatility of playing cards that aren't just combo pieces and that's what I feel Street Wraith is.

Dig Through Time is powerful, but I feel like it requires you to jump through more hoops than Burning Wish does to get it to work, and Burning Wish contributes to a lot of the Turn 1-2 wins I get with this deck by being +1 Storm, which Dig Through Time can't do. That's probably fine if you don't want to win through Storm (Laboratory Maniac is plenty viable) or you don't care about being fast, but it seems like the main thing people complain about when they talk about Doomsday is that they can't get it to kill as quickly as ANT. Also, I don't think Cabal Ritual is a reason to play Dig Through Time. People originally started moving away from Cabal Ritual when Gitaxian Probe was printed because that made Ideas Unbound's double cantrip piles more appealing than playing Meditate and other Draw 4 spells because Ideas Unbound (+Burning Wish) casts more spells for the same amount of mana or less; Cabal Ritual's mana cost has a nasty habit of making you end up with BBBU and unable to cast Ideas Unbound in the same turn. I imagine there would be similar issues with Dig Through Time--frankly, the mana cost is the main reason the card was initially dismissed and playing more black intensive cards doesn't make that problem go away. In a nutshell, it feels kind of crazy to me to try to play BBB spells, spells that make BBB, and then multiple UU spells in your deck and then claim that this is the best configuration to go with--the power of Dig Through Time means nothing if you can hardly cast it. And really, I'm not even that hot on playing Cabal Ritual again in the first place--as I said before, I don't like playing a ton of cards that are mainly combo pieces; I enjoy that the deck gets away with a minimum number of fast mana since cantrips make mana after you stack your deck. I'm going to try it out, but Dark Petition would have to be pretty awesome for me to be happy about having more rituals in my deck.

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Originally Posted by Togores

Why now no one is building a dig version of doomsday. And even more if your not playing a cabal full version ?

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I'm a storm addict, but in no way an expert in this deck, but i have saved this in cockatrice vor some time now:

3 Doomsday
3 Burning Wish
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth
2 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Ideas Unbound
2 Dig Through Time
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Flooded Strand
SB: 1 Doomsday
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Void Snare
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Tropical Island
SB: 2 Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Cruel Bargain
SB: 1 Time Spiral

Feel free to make it better/take it to a tournament.

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Originally Posted by Kanti

Don't see why you would ever cut SDT from the deck. From reading your past posts here all you do is bang on about SW, a card that you probably have never tested in the deck. Since you have last spoken about SW, how has it performed for you vs SDT? I can only agree with your sentiments on Silence.

Anyhow, yes, DTT deserves some shout-outs here, though the UU is rough.

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Mainly because SDT is a very slow and mana-intense card which does not create raw cardadvantage like DTT and maneuvers Doomsday as a combo deck into a really unfortunate position in this metagame. Wraith/Dig makes the deck a lot faster and helps grabbing combo-parts and/or protection on demand while you otherwise would durdle with SDT + fetches for several turns to see a similar amount of cards. It performed pretty good to support Doomsday and make the deck a lot more streamlined, which I think is desirable. Of course it does not "fix" the known issues with the card Doomsday itself, but casting eot DTT with a Ritual in hand to just grab Probe + Doomsday, untap and combo, is really strong and nothing Dark Petition can do at all as it can only increase the density of virtual Doomsdays for the cost of an additional two mana. You can untap after DTT, but with DP it's not possible.

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Originally Posted by Namida

It isn't like people here aren't open to change. It remains to be seen if Dark Petition is the real deal here and worth playing Cabal Rituals again. I'll certainly try it out and if it works out I'd be sad to see my Burning Wishes go. It's just a pretty tall order to justify Dig Through Time and Street Wraith over Sensei's Top and Burning Wish. I mean, I guess you're still playing the same number of cantrips if you switch out Tops for Wraiths, but I like the versatility of playing cards that aren't just combo pieces and that's what I feel Street Wraith is.

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As mentioned above, the idea of Dark Petition has serious drawbacks as it costs a total of 5 mana to cast Doomsday instead of 3 in addition to all costs you need to afford to combo off, while DTT allows you to setup your combo during your opponents turn and not only frees up a full two mana compared to DP, doesn't require Cabal Rituals, but also creates pure cardadvantage. The competition here is not even close, so I'm baffled testing is done with DP rather than with DTT in this thread. Maybe because I was talking about DTT in combination with Wraith (which is a redundancy tool) and questioning SDT which rubbed some people the wring way to dismiss the idea directly.

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Originally Posted by Namida

Dig Through Time is powerful, but I feel like it requires you to jump through more hoops than Burning Wish does to get it to work, and Burning Wish contributes to a lot of the Turn 1-2 wins I get with this deck by being +1 Storm, which Dig Through Time can't do. That's probably fine if you don't want to win through Storm (Laboratory Maniac is plenty viable) or you don't care about being fast, but it seems like the main thing people complain about when they talk about Doomsday is that they can't get it to kill as quickly as ANT.

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"Jumping though hoops" isn't the right term if you are able to cut a color and run a manabase with basics while being a lot more resistant to counters, discard and Counterbalance (DTT->Decay + X). You can't seriously talk about being fast, if you run SDT and are fine to durdle the next full 2-4 turns with it (not even talking about the mana invested) to see the same number of cards Wraith/Dig does in a blink of an eye. There is a lot of potential modgame power still burried between DTT and Rain of Filth as well once you hit 3 lands or more. Imagine the setup with 4 lands in longer games: the interaction of both cards wield 7 mana and 2 fresh cards by themselves.

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Originally Posted by Namida

Also, I don't think Cabal Ritual is a reason to play Dig Through Time.

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No one said you should run both.

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Originally Posted by Namida

People originally started moving away from Cabal Ritual when Gitaxian Probe was printed because that made Ideas Unbound's double cantrip piles more appealing than playing Meditate and other Draw 4 spells because Ideas Unbound (+Burning Wish) casts more spells for the same amount of mana or less; Cabal Ritual's mana cost has a nasty habit of making you end up with BBBU and unable to cast Ideas Unbound in the same turn. I imagine there would be similar issues with Dig Through Time--frankly, the mana cost is the main reason the card was initially dismissed and playing more black intensive cards doesn't make that problem go away.

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I don't get the point. You cast DTT eot, untap and win. Cabal Ritual ties up blue mana if you cast Dark Petition to grab Doomsday. Apples and Oranges.

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Originally Posted by Namida

In a nutshell, it feels kind of crazy to me to try to play BBB spells, spells that make BBB, and then multiple UU spells in your deck and then claim that this is the best configuration to go with--the power of Dig Through Time means nothing if you can hardly cast it.

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Are you making points based on a configuration (DTT + Cabal Ritual) I did not suggested nor claimed to be the best? Do you really tell me that casting eot DTT is unbearable for Doomsdays manabase? I beg to pardon. Can you start to differ Wraith/Dig and Cabal/Petition as two different approaches for further discussion and getting the idea out of your head that you ever want to cast DTT & Doomsday in a single turn?

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Originally Posted by Namida

And really, I'm not even that hot on playing Cabal Ritual again in the first place--as I said before, I don't like playing a ton of cards that are mainly combo pieces; I enjoy that the deck gets away with a minimum number of fast mana since cantrips make mana after you stack your deck. I'm going to try it out, but Dark Petition would have to be pretty awesome for me to be happy about having more rituals in my deck.

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I gave my 0.02$ about Cabal Ritual and Petition which is imo horrible. If I just look the the combined mana-requirements to cast Petition into Doomsday and combo off immediately, I'm getting dizzy, aside the question why you bother with Doomsday at all if you could win with PIF at this commiting point of deckbuilding and close 52-card overlap with ANT (if you cut Wishes for petition)

I apologize; I thought the person you were replying to was asking "Why aren't you testing DTT if you are playing Cabal Ritual?"

Let's start over. In what way does Dig Through Time speed the deck up? I fail to see how Dig Through Time makes the deck faster than with Top and Burning Wish. Doomsday is a consistent Turn 3 deck. When I play Top, it isn't often that I'm sitting there and "durdling around" Turns 2-4. If I cast Turn 1 Top, it's often as a saved draw; the draw plus having Burning Wish in my deck for +1 Storm in double cantrip piles directly contributes to my ability to execute the combo on Turn 2. What does your decklist look like, to make Dig Through Time push this deck's Turn 2 win rate?

Just a thought. If DP lets Red be cut, and the deck be essentially a two color deck with a light SB splash, then I think Lake of the Dead could be run. It directly facilitates DP into DDay with a combination of U and B floating. After turn three, it helps ignore taxing counters, especially Flusterstorm, which it doesnt increase count for. And if you are running DTT and/or Cabal, it will likely guarantee being able to cast either pre-Dday. Even post-Dday if you dont have to activate it to cast Dday. And it was erratad with Mox Diamond and the like so there is no opportunity for your opponent to Waste the target in response, nor is there a trigger to be Stifled. The CiP effect is a special action(playing a land), and the sac is a mana ability.

DTT does not speed up DD, if anything it slows it down. (at best you might DTT on 3) If the idea were a faster DD deck, you'd be playing personal tutor. DTT is ok (w/ street wraith) but not anything special imo. Fine, but not groundbreaking.

DD is a t4 deck in basically all of it's current configurations, with the possibility of being faster some amount of the time.

Just observations... ymmv.

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Originally Posted by Namida

I apologize; I thought the person you were replying to was asking "Why aren't you testing DTT if you are playing Cabal Ritual?"

Let's start over. In what way does Dig Through Time speed the deck up? I fail to see how Dig Through Time makes the deck faster than with Top and Burning Wish. Doomsday is a consistent Turn 3 deck. When I play Top, it isn't often that I'm sitting there and "durdling around" Turns 2-4. If I cast Turn 1 Top, it's often as a saved draw; the draw plus having Burning Wish in my deck for +1 Storm in double cantrip piles directly contributes to my ability to execute the combo on Turn 2. What does your decklist look like, to make Dig Through Time push this deck's Turn 2 win rate?

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You know it; I know it; everyone who actually played a few games with Doomsday knows, that Doomsday is neither consistent nor a turn 3 deck, but more a turn 4 one given you find the Doomsday, the fitting mana to cast it, a way to draw into the pile and potentially required protection all in the meantime, which DTT does with a higher consistency and less color requirement than Wish/SDT to REALLY combo turn 3-4 thanks to the actual cardadvantage and improved cardselection especially against resistance. I dunno if we really should start discussing builds, if you set hyperboles like "SDT Doomsday kills consistent turn 3" and "DTT list have to push turn 2 win rates" as the base for discussion, especially if you admit that people complain about the decks speed. They would not if the deck would really kill "consistent turn 3".

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Originally Posted by QQQ

Just a thought. If DP lets Red be cut, and the deck be essentially a two color deck with a light SB splash, then I think Lake of the Dead could be run. It directly facilitates DP into DDay with a combination of U and B floating. After turn three, it helps ignore taxing counters, especially Flusterstorm, which it doesnt increase count for. And if you are running DTT and/or Cabal, it will likely guarantee being able to cast either pre-Dday. Even post-Dday if you dont have to activate it to cast Dday. And it was erratad with Mox Diamond and the like so there is no opportunity for your opponent to Waste the target in response, nor is there a trigger to be Stifled. The CiP effect is a special action(playing a land), and the sac is a mana ability.

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Is there any real advantage of Lake of the Dead over Rain of Filth as it does nothing on it's own?

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Is there any real advantage of Lake of the Dead over Rain of Filth as it does nothing on it's own?

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Uncounterable. Especially by taxing counters when you would start your combo with it. Or by Fstorm when you would cast it towards the end.
Basically undiscardable.
Reusable. At least in longer games.
Multiple copies arent redundant. At least in longer games.
T3, Lake nets you four mana. It takes RoF two more turns to do so. And that's if somehow you have made all your land drops.
Gets around Hatebears. Thalia, Ethersworn, etc. Likewise, gets around Chalice and 3Sphere.

Off the top of my head. Probably more. Dont understand the last part. Rain does nothing on its own either.

maybe...once upon a time when you could play lake and sacrifice your only other land for a ritual... probably not, but maybe. Now, no way. You open yourself up to way too many blowouts, even if wasteland isn't as common as it once was.

Sweet though... love Lake.

How are two NOT redundant? And lake is also useless on it's own.

It doesn't get around hate cards... you aren't overpowering any of the cards mentioned with lake (OR rof for that matter), and armageddoning yourself against taxing effects (either card) seems suicidal.

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Originally Posted by leegoo

maybe...once upon a time when you could play lake and sacrifice your only other land for a ritual... probably not, but maybe. Now, no way. You open yourself up to way too many blowouts, even if wasteland isn't as common as it once was.

Sweet though... love Lake.

How are two NOT redundant? And lake is also useless on it's own.

It doesn't get around hate cards... you aren't overpowering any of the cards mentioned with lake (OR rof for that matter), and armageddoning yourself against taxing effects (either card) seems suicidal.

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I dont see how you could possibly allow Waste to affect Lake. They cant do it in response to playing it. They cant do it in response to the activation for any real effect. With a two-color manabase you have plenty of basics. With 9 fetches, its pretty easy to fetch for a Sea, play Lake and tap Sea for U before they get priority. Waste is easy to play around.

If you are in a long game. Say, against Miracles, you could easily have enough lands where you could play a Lake, pass the turn, then play another and activate both.

Lake is useless on its own. That is, if you have no Swamps. But Rain is fine if you have no Swamps?

RoF cant be resolved with Chalice in play. RoF nets you even less mana with Thalia in play. And even less with 3 Sphere in play. RoF cant cast a PTT Dday with Cannonist in play.

Assuming,as most would, that you have discard for hard counters, I have no problem losing lands to ignore soft counters the turn I go off.

Definitely test it out and report back, I'm willing to have my mind changed.

I expect you'll end up seeing a lot of games against tempo where you end up getting 3 for 1'd, which isn't a good time, but like I said, I'm happy to have it proved that I've been looking over one of my favorite cards for the last 15 years.

Again, nothing you've said would make me want to keep hands with LotD in them. (And I'm not saying RoF is an all star or anything, it's just a *fine 5th dark ritual if you are in the market for that.)

The problem with Lake is that every land you fetch has to be a swamp type which exposes you to Wastelands

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

The problem with Lake is that every land you fetch has to be a swamp type which exposes you to Wastelands

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That is true if you want to use it on turn three. But I recall someone insisting that this is not a T3 deck. Playing Island, then Swamp, then Fetchland, then fetch Sea into Lake on T4 is very reasonable. Doesnt expose you to Waste, allows the deck to function completely, and still gives access to UU, as well as a ton of B when going off turn four.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

You know it; I know it; everyone who actually played a few games with Doomsday knows, that Doomsday is neither consistent nor a turn 3 deck, but more a turn 4 one given you find the Doomsday, the fitting mana to cast it, a way to draw into the pile and potentially required protection all in the meantime, which DTT does with a higher consistency and less color requirement than Wish/SDT to REALLY combo turn 3-4 thanks to the actual cardadvantage and improved cardselection especially against resistance.

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I've found Doomsday to be a turn 3 deck. When watching others, I find that their fundamental turn varies greatly. For the better pilots, it's 3. For the players without enough experience to see alternate lines, it tends to be 4 or 5. A lot of this comes down to how you sequence cantrips and what needs to be valued for each hand.

Cutting Burning Wish is close to impossible to do. Any time you cut Burning Wish, you have to realize that you don't free up 3-4 slots, you free up 1-2. That's because once you go from 3 Doomsday, 3-4 Burning Wish to 0 Burning Wish, you are now obligated to play an additional Doomsday and Tendrils of Agony. You play Burning Wish because drawing Tendrils of Agony is almost never what you want. Wish has some value in that it can be a worse (corner cases better) Doomsday, and also deal with unfortunate situations like killing a dude, grabbing some tokens, etc. It's also rarely stone cold dead. It slows you down in the cases when it's not Doomsday, but speeds you up in situations where it's not Dark Petition, Tendrils of Agony, or random other awful things.

Now, if you do want to play Dig Through Time, I won't fault you. That card is busted. To play Dig through Time instead of Burning Wish, you're going to assert one of two things: UU to maybe find Doomsday + card is better than always finding Doomsday at 1R and the opportunity cost of drawing Tendrils of Agony is made up for by the raw power of DTT. I'd be willing to hear an argument about how the general power level of DTT with the 4th Doomsday is high enough to outweight Burning Wish's ability to let you ignore REB/Pyroblast, not ever draw Tendrils, never miss on Doomsday, add additional storm, and deal with game one threats like Thalia.

Cutting SDT doesn't add velocity to the deck. SDT is at least a mana stored ahead of time, often more due to LED. The only things cutting SDT does are opening you up to discard, requiring more cards in hand, and requiring more mana on the combo turn.

To DDFT pilots; if you had to jam a DTT or two into a Burning Wish build for value (assuming it would create value) what would you cut? For instance, I had read Namida saying he hadn't used Chromatic Sphere for months, although admitting in the same vein he probably should find himself to have 4 mana open more to do so.

Nevermind, found my answer in post #2227. Just replace Cruise with DTT.

So, I have been jamming DTT in a Wish list. It looks like this right now:

3 Doomsday
3 Burning Wish
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Dig Through Time
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Ideas Unbound
1 Chromatic Sphere
4 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
1 Laboratory Maniac
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal

4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Doomsday
SB: 1 Cruel Bargain
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Vapor Snare
SB: 4 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Tropical Island
SB: 4 Force of Will

This has been running very smoothly on mtgo. The next thing for me to test is if I can get away with cutting Burning Wish (for the reasons I mentioned above). It would smooth out the mana and give me the 4th copy of Doomsday and Dig through Time in my deck. The complete cut would be something along the lines of:

-3 Burning Wish, +1 Tendrils, +1 Doomsday, +1 Dig Through Time
-2 Volcanic Island, -1 underground sea +1 Island, +1 Swamp, +10th fetch, playing 4 misty rainforests over strands/tarns

The sideboard would change the most, and likely look like this:

4 Abrupt Decay
2 Tropical Island
4 Force of Will
2 bounce spells
1 haymaker (possibly JTMS)

The things that I'll keep a watch out for is the need to play THROUGH reb/pyroblast, situations where drawing tendrils or having it in my main loses me games against the meta, and lack of wish into bounce/discard. This must be balanced against the raw power of drawing the last Doomsday and the 4th Dig through Time and better mana stability.

As an aside, because I often bring in Force of Will, I have less hand information post-board for Cabal Therapy. This has led me to prefer Thoughtseize/Duress over Therapy when playing with Forces or other countermagic in my 75.

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Originally Posted by emidln

So, I have been jamming DTT in a Wish list. It looks like this right now:

3 Doomsday
3 Burning Wish
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Dig Through Time
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Ideas Unbound
1 Chromatic Sphere
4 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
1 Laboratory Maniac
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal

4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Doomsday
SB: 1 Cruel Bargain
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Vapor Snare
SB: 4 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Tropical Island
SB: 4 Force of Will

This has been running very smoothly on mtgo. The next thing for me to test is if I can get away with cutting Burning Wish (for the reasons I mentioned above). It would smooth out the mana and give me the 4th copy of Doomsday and Dig through Time in my deck. The complete cut would be something along the lines of:

-3 Burning Wish, +1 Tendrils, +1 Doomsday, +1 Dig Through Time
-2 Volcanic Island, -1 underground sea +1 Island, +1 Swamp, +10th fetch, playing 4 misty rainforests over strands/tarns

The sideboard would change the most, and likely look like this:

4 Abrupt Decay
2 Tropical Island
4 Force of Will
2 bounce spells
1 haymaker (possibly JTMS)

The things that I'll keep a watch out for is the need to play THROUGH reb/pyroblast, situations where drawing tendrils or having it in my main loses me games against the meta, and lack of wish into bounce/discard. This must be balanced against the raw power of drawing the last Doomsday and the 4th Dig through Time and better mana stability.

As an aside, because I often bring in Force of Will, I have less hand information post-board for Cabal Therapy. This has led me to prefer Thoughtseize/Duress over Therapy when playing with Forces or other countermagic in my 75.

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seems very interesting! usually you bring in forces in wich matchups and what cards side out for it?

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Originally Posted by emidln

So, I have been jamming DTT in a Wish list. It looks like this right now:

This has been running very smoothly on mtgo. The next thing for me to test is if I can get away with cutting Burning Wish (for the reasons I mentioned above). It would smooth out the mana and give me the 4th copy of Doomsday and Dig through Time in my deck. The complete cut would be something along the lines of:

-3 Burning Wish, +1 Tendrils, +1 Doomsday, +1 Dig Through Time
-2 Volcanic Island, -1 underground sea +1 Island, +1 Swamp, +10th fetch, playing 4 misty rainforests over strands/tarns

The sideboard would change the most, and likely look like this:

4 Abrupt Decay
2 Tropical Island
4 Force of Will
2 bounce spells
1 haymaker (possibly JTMS)

The things that I'll keep a watch out for is the need to play THROUGH reb/pyroblast, situations where drawing tendrils or having it in my main loses me games against the meta, and lack of wish into bounce/discard. This must be balanced against the raw power of drawing the last Doomsday and the 4th Dig through Time and better mana stability.
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What do you think about running a single Burning Wish in place of Tendrils. The 10th Fetch or 3rd Island could be a Volcanic. The sideboard for it could be limited to Tendrils, Contract, Discard, and Massacre (or similar choices). The last three could be sideboard candidates regardless of the Wish so it feels like a minimal investment.

A single wish would,
- keep DD pile storm counts on par
- Allow you play around REB
- Have utility in places where Tendrils would be dead for discard / massacre (narrow I know)

The downside I see is there are less instances where you could cast spells and DTT into natural Tendrils because I assume the extra 1R would make Wish less desirable in this function, especially with less LEDs. I also am not sure if I'm underestimating the ability to mini Tendrils, get a life buffer, cast DTT with expended cards to find DD and re-stack the Tendrils in the pile.

Big Problem with this idea is (so running one BW in the main) that you can't tutor for both Contract and Tendrils with only 1 BW. You need at least 2 in the main deck to open such lines. And if you want to run the full playset of Dig/DDFT main, you don't want to run BW.

Otherwise, the list looks pretty interesting, I would run Flusterstorm over FoW, but with the playset Dig FoW might be better.

Greetings,
Kathal

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kathal

Big Problem with this idea is (so running one BW in the main) that you can't tutor for both Contract and Tendrils with only 1 BW. You need at least 2 in the main deck to open such lines. And if you want to run the full playset of Dig/DDFT main, you don't want to run BW.

Otherwise, the list looks pretty interesting, I would run Flusterstorm over FoW, but with the playset Dig FoW might be better.

Greetings,
Kathal

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That is a fair comment. I guess the answer would be you could still try and win with Lab Maniac and use the Wish --> Contract to get the extra discard in your pile. There's no doubt the utility of Wish is diminished (relative to the old configuration) with this idea. I'm just wondering if a singleton Wish can potentially be better than a maindeck Tendrils. There are some cheap piles and nice double cantrip piles with a maindeck Tendrils.

Just a thought...although I may be talking (thinking) myself out of it.

For a long while I have been running some combo of 2/3 DTT and a singleton wish. I do advise pumping it up to two as I am now testing. Two allows for, as stated, you being able to fetch utility from your sideboard alongside the tendrils and additionally when you have a lot of surgicals in peoples' sideboards as I do in my meta, allows you to side out one DDay postboard and still have access to the full DTT/BW for DDay package.

Has anyone had any viable success using dark petition or is it just a passing fancy?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Doishy

Has anyone had any viable success using dark petition or is it just a passing fancy?

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There was recently a wishless build with Dark Petition and Past in Flames posted on Kai's ANT Facebook group. I'm not sure if I can repost it here but that's where you can find it.

It was like an evolution of the first draft list I posted:
4 dark petition
4 doomsday
4 gp
4 bs
4 led (-1)
20
4 dr
4 cabal ritual
4 sensei
1 pif
7 discard
20
1 rain
1 toa
1 ideas
2 lp
1 chain


1 island
1 swamp
2 usea
1 bayou
1 tropical
1 volcanic
1 badland (other basic island)
8 fetch
16


Fluster?
Reb?
Fow?
Etw?


Maniac
Decay
Xs
Pyro
Fluster
Emrakul
Sheldock
Grapeshot
Helm
Notion

Toa
Ponder
Version
Silence
Fluster
Daze
Mentor

That list looks a lot like the older German lists that ran Infernal Tutor and Ill Gotten Gains except with Dark Petition and PiF. I'm curious how much getting the mana to cast Dark Petition is? This list plays a lot more rituals than traditional lists so maybe it is not that bad.

At the end you have to play 4 cabal ritual as most important card. Then problem is cabal works not well with top and works good with preordain and casting probes pre combo wich all is what dday dont want to do. Thats my main issues with the deck now.

Was just discussing with a friend, if 3 fetchies, 3 duress and one infernal Tutor is keepable vs Bug delver on the draw, thoughts?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Amunshax

Was just discussing with a friend, if 3 fetchies, 3 duress and one infernal Tutor is keepable vs Bug delver on the draw, thoughts?

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So you are keeping a hand that loses to a discard spell in the next turns? You have to wait 3 turns to empty your hand for hellbent as is, so that sounds like an auto-mull. Would be funny to duress into hand with clique.

Burning wish, sry...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Amunshax

Burning wish, sry...

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Still, the hand loses to a single discard spell (if he has it on Turn 1). You have no cantrip to find any business, so losing the BW would be more than rough. Furthermore, this specific hand will have huge problems against a Turn 1 Delver, since it is to fast (especially if you lose the Tutor).

I would mull this hand without thinking twice.

Greetings,
Kathal

I'm pretty happy with the no-Wish maindeck. 4 DD, 4 Dig is really really good. Dig seems to address the consistency issues the deck has when it has to aggressively cantrip to find Doomsday while providing a means towards either Doomsday or recovering from attrition.

I've tried a number of sideboard plans. I can't say that any of them are particularly impressive. The most interesting are Abrupt Decay + Force of Will, but the Miracle plan (4 FoW, 4 CB, 4 Mentor, 3 Terminus) is also good by virtue of being difficult to attack from decks that can deal with Storm well. Mentor in general is a very good threat, and whether we end up dropping FoW or not, a combination of Mentors and Abrupt Decays is going to lean us to a white or green splash in almost every case. It's kinda neat that 2-3 Doomsday can be kept in every a full transformation allowing for Doomsday into IU/Chromatic Sphere/LED/Lab Man kills. It's possible that Mentor/Therapy is so strong that just Mentor plus situational cards for various matchups is correct.

Anyway, if you are playing Doomsday, you should really give this maindeck a shot, it's absurd:

4 Doomsday
4 Dig Through Time
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Ideas Unbound
1 Chromatic Sphere
4 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Laboratory Maniac
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Swamp

Open questions:

- What can be cut for the 7th discard spell? (Current best targets: 17th land or 4th Dig Through Time)
- What is the best way of ensuring to beat Miracles?
- Abrupt Decay, Mentor, both? (You probably cut the 10th fetch to maindeck a splash dual if you play either)
- Do we want a black draw4 to side in when we have Dig Through Time?
- How much additional disruption is necessary against combo?

As always, I do not recommend playing this deck to anyone unless you enjoy Doomsday and are experienced with legacy storm decision trees. If you do enjoy Doomsday, this has been a good way to win matches for me. YMMV.