[Deck] UW(x) Landstill

I did a lot of testing this weekend, and generally sucked it up. My fault, more than the deck’s. It’s a tricky deck to play, and you need to hope that the right face is forward, depending on what you’re playing against.

You’re on the play. You lay down a land and pass. They play Sensei’s Divining Top. Do you force? You have the mana open for daze, so that’s not an issue. If they force back, well, you’ve drawn out a force, card parity. If they don’t, then they have a much more difficult time fixing their draws. But is it worth the force? I did it both ways, and lost both times, but I was wondering what you guys thought.

let top live. live to force another day

If this is counter top deck - let it live. If this is heavy control deck like Mighty Quinn, or Train Wreck, that doesn't have much other filtering/manipulation I would most likely force.

Dreadstill. The worst of countertop and tempothresh together. Wasteland is just hideous. Hate that card.

Dreadstill's main focus is to beat us up on a bad draw or go for the small beats. The better players will not overextend with naught, and thats also partially why they've cut naught back a slot.

I seldom force Top even though it seems like a good idea to make them "topdeck". Top is a great card but if you've forced it, they'll probably just drop another. The only time I would force Top is when they mull to 5, and look distraught and then relieved, that's the hint that they have a 1 land hand and Top. But a good player will fake that hand and you end up with 5 cards in hand as well.

I would save Force against things that the deck really cannot do e.g. like Armageddon. Against Countertop, it's better to FOW CB than Top to be honest. Top sticking is good for them, but doesn't hampen you since you have all that removal (artifact/enchantment/creatures) to deal with what they play with Top filtering. If you countered top, you have one less out to their threat. Top doesn't net them cards so you don't have to worry about them dropping multiple threats, but if you FOWed top, you have one less answer against something troublesome, not to mention losing another card (possibly a spell snare/standstill). Even though Landstill ignores Countertop, we're still susceptible to it, i.e. StP/Snares all become less useful, and the virtual card advantage given by CB is annoying even with Blind flips. I won't FOW a CB but if I were to pick which to FOW: CB or Top, I'd go with CB just in case it sticks and kills your StPs, therefore forcing you to rely on EE for outs against Goyf, and no outs against Tombstalkers (not sure if Tombstalker is even played in Countertop decks lol, I think Bob is, but I played my version of Countertop with Tombstalker + Dreadnought aka Dreadstalker).

Who here would still play with 4 Standstill MD? (assuming a balanced meta i.e. not a vial-heavy meta) I like 4 Standstill in builds with 6 StP maindeck since you can very easily drop Standstill on turn 2 consistently after StPing turn 1. In Vindicate builds, I might play 3, and focus on a less speedy but diverse playstyle. I find myself boarding the 4th Standstill on the draw (see my report) but playing 4 Standstill on the play. I'm not sure if I want to lose the 4th Standstill on the play by playing 3, but it seems justifiable since you may not always play first game 1.

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Originally Posted by mossivo1986

Dreadstill's main focus is to beat us up on a bad draw or go for the small beats. The better players will not overextend with naught, and thats also partially why they've cut naught back a slot.

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I think the main reason they've cut back PD is that they're playing goyf. That puts a lot less pressure on them to make the early 12/12 call. I still fear Dreadstill more for the potential turn 2 combos (early naught or countertop) than anything else. Adding goyf to the mix has just made the deck obscene in that if they don't have the early win they still likely control the board by turn 4 or 5 at the outside.

@LostButSeeking

Never counter anything unless it's going to kill you. As others have pointed out in a deck that uses CounterTop it's not the tops that will kill you it is counterbalance that you need to keep off the board at all costs. In Quinn you need to keep the top off the board because it is his draw engine and that draw engine will kill you. I disagree a little bit with the people who ignore counterbalance with Landstill. It's still the best way for the opponent to conserve his counters so that the stuff that really matters gets countered by hard counters. Shutting down StP/PtE is enough to make counterbalance a real hazard to the deck. Throw in Spell Snare and Counterspell and a big part of our solutions curve is managed by one permanent on their side.

@FoolofaTook: Exactly with Countertop. The thing to note that Countertop DOES NOT shut this deck down, which is a huge plus to play this deck against Countertop decks in the first place. The argument that Standstill is 2cc and snares is 1cc should not detract you from playing them against Countertop. This deck easily deals with Countertop with EE@2 while making its cmc@3 or 4 to dodge Countertop. It's not Countertop that kills the deck, but the threats backed with Countertop protection that actually hurts the deck.

Countertop isn't a problem, but starts becoming one if you don't have a quick answer (EE/Vindicate/Wish) for it and moreso when they put a threat out, making your StP close to worthless. But it's nice that this deck isn't killed by Countertop, compared to other decks such as Zoo/Burn/Goyf Sligh/combo/mirror Countertop.

I <3 you frog boy. FYI let me finish editing the post before you delete it please.


<3 and kisses
-Moss

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Originally Posted by crz87

Who here would still play with 4 Standstill MD?

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I'm old school :tongue:

Top? Here we've one reason for that that nice needle MD :laugh:

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Originally Posted by crz87

@FoolofaTook: Exactly with Countertop. The thing to note that Countertop DOES NOT shut this deck down, which is a huge plus to play this deck against Countertop decks in the first place. The argument that Standstill is 2cc and snares is 1cc should not detract you from playing them against Countertop. This deck easily deals with Countertop with EE@2 while making its cmc@3 or 4 to dodge Countertop. It's not Countertop that kills the deck, but the threats backed with Countertop protection that actually hurts the deck.

Countertop isn't a problem, but starts becoming one if you don't have a quick answer (EE/Vindicate/Wish) for it and moreso when they put a threat out, making your StP close to worthless. But it's nice that this deck isn't killed by Countertop, compared to other decks such as Zoo/Burn/Goyf Sligh/combo/mirror Countertop.

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You're still better off Forcing it (Counterbalance) if you have the option, rather than try to play around it or through it. What if they can flip for 3? You just lost your out you thought you had. You really have to draw nuttily to win with an opposing CounterTop on the board.

What really sucks is that they don't have to Force back. Losing CounterTop is no-big-deal for them and at the same time resolving it is a huge boost. Good players will save their hard coutners for when they drop Dreadnought and need to protect it for 2 turns.

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Originally Posted by Misplayer

You're still better off Forcing it (Counterbalance) if you have the option, rather than try to play around it or through it. What if they can flip for 3? You just lost your out you thought you had. You really have to draw nuttily to win with an opposing CounterTop on the board.

What really sucks is that they don't have to Force back. Losing CounterTop is no-big-deal for them and at the same time resolving it is a huge boost. Good players will save their hard coutners for when they drop Dreadnought and need to protect it for 2 turns.

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Our bombs have all cc of 4.
This means that you've to flip that nice faerie, and as far as I know you're not playing so many.

Last resort... did anyone ever played an EE with 2 counters, but paying it 6?
I did :wink:

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Originally Posted by VonDoom

Our bombs have all cc of 4.
This means that you've to flip that nice faerie, and as far as I know you're not playing so many.

Last resort... did anyone ever played an EE with 2 counters, but paying it 6?
I did :wink:

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But swords and path both cost one, which is problematic if they resolve dreadnought (which is more likely because of the counterbalance, because CS costs 2). Elspeth fears the fear-nought, even if she doesn't fear goyf.

His stifles and wastes also serve to keep me dangerously low on colored mana, making an EE dodging counterbalance much more difficult. Maybe its different if all they're playing is goose and goyf or whatever (there isn't anyone in my area with either Tempo or Countertop, the only guy with the cards is Mr. Dreadstill) , but it is imperative against dreadstill that you are able to remove the dreadnought.

CB/Top negates many of Landstill's early game answers. Turn 3 CB/Top + Turn 4 Goyf can often spell GG. Their mana disruption + Daze is a beating when trying to resolve a hope-and-pray Wrath or Elspeth to stave off death. Don't even think about coming back it if they have 1+ Factories, or Stifle for EE. Bottom line, and early CB/Top followed up by a threat is fucking difficult to beat with Landstill. They have answers for all of our answers, plus the ability to apply pressure.

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Originally Posted by LostButSeeking

But swords and path both cost one, which is problematic if they resolve dreadnought (which is more likely because of the counterbalance, because CS costs 2). Elspeth fears the fear-nought, even if she doesn't fear goyf.

His stifles and wastes also serve to keep me dangerously low on colored mana, making an EE dodging counterbalance much more difficult. Maybe its different if all they're playing is goose and goyf or whatever (there isn't anyone in my area with either Tempo or Countertop, the only guy with the cards is Mr. Dreadstill) , but it is imperative against dreadstill that you are able to remove the dreadnought.

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I TOTALLY AGREE with you that Counterbalance should not enter the battlefield!

On the other side, I'm quite happy if he will reserve his stifles on our fetchlands, instead on his shrimp.

Having said that, every landdrop for us is a step to the win.
If we can count more than 5 lands on the battlefield, we're going to win :tongue:

We shouldn't be talking about the following cards:

Counterbalance
Top
spell snare

These subjects have been thoroughly gone over plenty of times and really just read the previous pages in the thread to get where the current state of these cards are.

We should focus more on specific builds and new tech versus old crap thats like beating a dead horse.

just saying....
-MoSs

7/23 lands that tap for no color mana + dependence on EE = NOMBO!

How the hell do you people manage to not get color screwed by all those non-color lands?

Test the deck out yourself. To keep it short: Keep lands with at least U/W and Brainstorm/top both help in ensuring color fixing.

And opening hands with Wasteland + Mishras and none others?

Auto-Hymn isn't a viable strategy last time I checked, and neither should it be with a control deck with limited card drawing. Wasteland is starting to become the most easily cuttable card I'm finding.

Cutting Wasteland weakens your game under Standstill considerably. You don't want to weaken your game under Standstill.

Wasteland makes sure you can drop a standstill on an empty board against anything running manlands, since you both have mishra's factories that can beat the living snot out of their wussy manlands and wastelands that can just take them out for you.

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Originally Posted by rukcus

And opening hands with Wasteland + Mishras and none others?

Auto-Hymn isn't a viable strategy last time I checked, and neither should it be with a control deck with limited card drawing. Wasteland is starting to become the most easily cuttable card I'm finding.

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You mulligan hands with no colored mana about 99% of the time. You get these hands about 10% of the time. The odds on mulling to 6 without seeing a colored land are under 2%.

The only mana situation that happens to me often enough to be an issue is trying to put together 2 white mana against real mana denial. Even then the decks that are trying to do this are mostly decks that I can live against with 1 white mana in play for quite a while.

Finally, if 16/23 is not working for you then go to 17/24 and add an extra Plains or on-color dual to the mix. This deck can run anywhere from 23 to 25 lands and do quite well. It's a meta choice basically as to how much land you run because the deck's effect will come out effectively anywhere in the 40% range.

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Originally Posted by Ectoplasm

Wasteland makes sure you can drop a standstill on an empty board against anything running manlands, since you both have mishra's factories that can beat the living snot out of their wussy manlands and wastelands that can just take them out for you.

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This is how you win games against Merfolk.

Edit. That and Spell Snares. Spell Snares are money against that deck.

I just officially cut standstill from my testing list. I'm looking forward to working on it over the weekend.

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Originally Posted by rsaunder

I just officially cut standstill from my testing list. I'm looking forward to working on it over the weekend.

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I tested the deck without Standstills... let's just say it can be very interesting.

Has anyone thought of cutting the E. Plagues? In my experience, the tribal to worry about is Merfolk; unfortunately Plague isn't easy to use against them. Not only is it not easy to fetch for a swamp, you likely need to wait until at least turn 4, in which case they probably have at least 1 Lord effect out. They also use Echoing Truth or Wipe Away, and now more are splashing green for Krosan Grip.
I'm not as sold on Engineered Plague as I once was. Without it, Black is still likely the color to use, perhaps just for Extirpate alone.

Instead, perhaps using additional Paths, Negates, Pulses, Relic/Crypt, or even Counterbalance could now be options.

If you cut Standstill completely you're definitely changing the character of the deck a lot. No more explosive early starts off of a Mishra's, Wasteland and Standstill. There's also a lot of pressure on the rest of the deck to be highly efficient because there are no sudden card windfalls after you've gained tempo in the midgame either. Ancestral Visions is a pipedream in this deck because if they land Counterbalance you will never resolve it and they can land Counterbalance after you suspend it. Late game you still have Fact or Fiction but that's late game.

Allright, here´s another short summary of a tournament I played.
This weekend I have the PLGSTW Legacy upcoming and because of that I decided to give some choices a chance to prove themselves.
This was the list, pretty close to Moss`:


// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [A] Underground Sea
1 [U] Scrubland
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
4 [B] Tundra
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
3 [A] Island (2)
3 [5E] Plains (1)
1 [MM] Dust Bowl

// Creatures
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon <- Got screwed pretty often lately
1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells
3 [OD] Standstill
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [B] Counterspell
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
1 [TE] Humility
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
2 [A] Wrath of God
3 [5E] Brainstorm <- The number still hurts my logic :S
1 [FNM] Fact or Fiction
1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus <- Expected at least 20% Loam.

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 4 [CFX] Path to Exile <- never get them when I board 3.
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 2 [MOR] Negate <- for testing
SB: 2 [TE] Perish
SB: 1 [IA] Circle of Protection: Red < last minute change


R1: bunchoflands.dec (43landbase but with Intuiton,Confidant and VIndicate)
G1: This was a epic fight. We traded removal for manlands, dust bowl activations for r.ports and combat steps against lifepoints. He vindicates my first Elspeth just when she was at 8 but I manage to remove his first loam with Relic and extirpate the second right away. After all, I have only 5 cards left, already used Elspeths ulitmate and tapped out every turn because of Tabernacle. My final "army" was Dragon,Clique and 7 Soldiers which was totally needed because of his 3 Maze of Iths. I win at 1 lifepoint with 3 cards left in the library :=)
1-0 1-0

R2: Dutch-Staxx
G1: I start with Top, he with a first turn Trinisphere. He fails at putting any pressure on the board and throws a Mishra into some swords. I drop Elspeth, remove Trinisphere+Mox via Return to Dust and nail his last lands with Dust Bowl. He conceeds:
+2 Negate
+1 Extirpate
+1 Crucible
+1 Relic
-2 WoG
-1 Humility
-2 Swords
G2: He gets off the gates with double Trinisphere. I go for EoT Fact into Standstill,CoW,Elspeth,Extirpate,DoJ. He gives me a pile with Crucible AND Elspeth which immediatly won the game after I countered both Oblivion Rings.
2-0 3-0

R3: RG Goyfsligh
G1: Since I´m able to remove the first 2-3 creatures and find a Wish in time after then, I win easily.
+4 PtE
+1 E.Tutor
+1 CoP:Red
-1 Humility
-2 WoG
-2 DoJ
-1 X
G2: My opening seven had Tutor, basics and some brainstorms so I kept. I tutor for CoP in the face of Lavamancer and Goyf. In response to my Circle he burns me down to 8. Goyf beats me to 4 and I don´t have any answer in hand. But I rip path and send Goyf to Exile. The following Nacatl is answered by another topdecked (:P) Swords and from then on he is helpless against CoP. Interesting Sidenote: Had to Force an early Sulfuring Vortex pitching Cunning Wish. meh :/
3-0 5-0

R4: Merrows with b2b MD
G1: Allright, I´ve already written to much for such a small tournament. So long story short, he gets a slow start but with a strong midgame. He gets B2b and I might loose at some rate but since his manlands can attack only once under B2B I win at 1 life. Phew :>
+4 PtE
-2 C.Wish
-2 SS
G2: Crap Draw looses against lotsa creatures.
G3: I get ~5 Sword effects+some Explosives and Elspeth which is enough for his draw.
4-0 7-1
Picked my reward, Hellspark ELemental, and traded it immediatly for a cigarette.Nice.

Some conlclusions:
-Dragon as 61st card was awesome and has always done his job well
- CoP is awesome if you play against good opponents
- Didn´t got a chance to cast one Negate
- Fact is still a LOT better than Jace

so far,
NQN

cutting standstill is not that a bad idea. I really hate to be tapped out on turn two. The format is filled with two drop that we must answer (the most scary being counterbalance and dark confidant for this deck). Thus, swapping the standstill for another draw engine can make sense. I have tried accumulated knownledge, but it is slow without the intuition engine.
I've also tried ancestral vision, and i foud it even more clunky than standstill in this deck.
I'm at the moment playing more jace and more fact or fiction in this slot. It is kinda slow but still, it draw card like mad.

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Originally Posted by Holo_rip

I'm at the moment playing more jace and more fact or fiction in this slot. It is kinda slow but still, it draw card like mad.

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This is about what I've been running. 2 FOF, 2 Jace, 3 Brainstorm, 2 SDT for me. No vision. When I topdeck my draw I don't want to wait four more turns to draw cards. I've really been enjoying the early game card selection and late game super-heavy card advantage.

@Citrus God: What were your findings without standstill? If I remember correctly you still play it, why is that?

@ Plague: I've been considering cutting it for other solutions too. My first choice was to just outright change the splash color to support Pyroblast. Boarding in so much spot removal that doubles as 1 mana counters in counterwars seems pretty tech for that matchup. The manabase would have to be worked for a heavier splash though... 1 plateau, 3 volc perhaps.

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Originally Posted by rsaunder

I just officially cut standstill from my testing list. I'm looking forward to working on it over the weekend.

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Check these out (one and two) and let us all know what conclusions you draw from your testing.

I think this "Landstill" archetype is so flexible that you can come up with endless viable variants. I think every build should start with 4 FoW, 4 StP, 2 Elspeth, 2-3 Wrath of God (and 2-3 DoJ if you're playing Standstill). Almost everything else is a flex slot in my mind.

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Originally Posted by Misplayer

I think this "Landstill" archetype is so flexible that you can come up with endless viable variants. I think every build should start with 4 FoW, 4 StP, 2 Elspeth, 2-3 Wrath of God (and 2-3 DoJ if you're playing Standstill). Almost everything else is a flex slot in my mind.

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Oh Yeah!

This is also the reason for us to have 100+ pages of discussion.

I discovered it some months ago.

I was "studying" the sideboard, t understand what change, in which situations.

At the end, I 've found that there are just some cards that are never sided out.
Lands (and it's obvious), counters, bstorms, crucible, etutor
This mean, in my case, that I've 20 customizable cards --> 33% of the deck is "tunable"

WOW !!! :eek:

I really love this deck ! :wink:

@Engineered Plague,
I found this really useful in my metagame vs. Elves, Merfolk, & Goblins. I can usually force a concession out of Elves by dropping this card, I can stymy Goblins, and mixed results vs Merfolk. This card along with Humility is just plain sick however, and is definitly a highlight of my day when I pull it off.

However, the lack of a basic Swamp hurts against the Goblin matchup where Wasteland and Blood Moon (it's a screwy meta...) come in to punish bad mana bases.

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Originally Posted by rukcus

@Engineered Plague,
I found this really useful in my metagame vs. Elves, Merfolk, & Goblins. I can usually force a concession out of Elves by dropping this card, I can stymy Goblins, and mixed results vs Merfolk. This card along with Humility is just plain sick however, and is definitly a highlight of my day when I pull it off.

However, the lack of a basic Swamp hurts against the Goblin matchup where Wasteland and Blood Moon (it's a screwy meta...) come in to punish bad mana bases.

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I played in a tourney against Sligh
A winning condition was the EPlague calling for Elemental !

No twice hellsparks, no Ball Lightnings !!!! 1x8 !!!!

It's good also against Ichorid!

Keep it in !

It does indeed have its moments..I'll probably cut it down to 2 or maybe even 1 as it can be tutored for if needed.

How often is E. Plague better than Propaganda?

Prop Pros:
Propaganda is on-color, pitches for Force, is usually GG against Ichorid rather than just annoying, makes opposing manlands awful and waylays Merfolk as effectively as E. Plague, if not better.

Prop Cons:
Prop can be hit by REB, is easier to recover from (e.g. Krosan Grip), and is generally a less permanent solution (it provides more of a tempo slowdown in the early-mid game to help you get to Wrath etc, rather than E. Plague which can be an anytime ball-buster)

Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Misplayer

How often is E. Plague better than Propaganda?

Prop Pros:
Propaganda is on-color, pitches for Force, is usually GG against Ichorid rather than just annoying, makes opposing manlands awful and waylays Merfolk as effectively as E. Plague, if not better.

Prop Cons:
Prop can be hit by REB, is easier to recover from (e.g. Krosan Grip), and is generally a less permanent solution (it provides more of a tempo slowdown in the early-mid game to help you get to Wrath etc, rather than E. Plague which can be an anytime ball-buster)

Thoughts?

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I suppose it really depends. You pretty much said it. Although I think the amount used is a factor. As a one of, then Prop is possibly better overall. 2+ and Plague is likely better for a more permanent solution.

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Originally Posted by Misplayer

How often is E. Plague better than Propaganda?

Prop Pros:
Propaganda is on-color, pitches for Force, is usually GG against Ichorid rather than just annoying, makes opposing manlands awful and waylays Merfolk as effectively as E. Plague, if not better.

Prop Cons:
Prop can be hit by REB, is easier to recover from (e.g. Krosan Grip), and is generally a less permanent solution (it provides more of a tempo slowdown in the early-mid game to help you get to Wrath etc, rather than E. Plague which can be an anytime ball-buster)

Thoughts?

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E. Plague is just pure better, but it does depend on your meta. With goblins around I love the plague, as it makes so many of his drops just useless. Lackey, Fanatic, Matron and War Marshall all die instantly. 16 Cards made useless to your one.

E. Plague can turn into silly card advantage while Prop. is more of a tempo play. If you see a lot of tribal play plague, but if you are facing things like Zoo, Thresh, Ichorid, ect Prop. is a better pick, for all the reasons you list.

In a blind Meta I would use plague. Goblins and Merfolk are everywhere.

Propaganda is an inherently flawed solution unless you have some way to keep the opponent from just continuing to drop lands and attack. Merfolk and Elves get shut down by it because they have no way to get rid of it easily and they really depend on mass attacks and over-run. Goblins and Zoo will just REB it and keep going a lot of the time so it doesn't represent much of a guarantee against them.

EP gives you a tangible benefit (-1 damage per attacker) as soon as it lands. This can easily walk you out into WoG territory and a reset. Propaganda on the other hand encourages the opponent not to over-extend, since excess creatures will just sit still anyway. You sweep them and they drop 3 creatures the next turn and the turn after are attacking for real damage again.

I used to love EP but with the advent of +1/+1 lords in goblins, elves, and merfolk, EP is not as game changing as it once was.

As Propaganda is inherently vulnerable to REB in Goblins and Zoo, wouldn't ghostly prison be a less vulnerable on color alternative?