[Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)

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Originally Posted by MTG-Fan

- Cryptic Command is a versatile counterspell, but in Legacy it is simply too expensive to see play. For 4 mana, in Legacy, you should be doing stuff like casting Fact or Fiction and generating tons of card advantage, or wiping the board with Disk. Simply fogging for one turn, or countering a spell and cantripping, is not acceptable for 4 mana in this format, as it is in slower formats like Standard.

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Using Cryptic Command as Dismiss or Fog is not why the card is in my deck. It is extremely versatile and can do those things (which aren't always terrible) but most importantly it can bounce annoying enchantments that have been forced through like Humility or Counterbalance along with countering another annoying spell or at worst, drawing me a card. If you run Nevinyrral's Disk, I can see this being less relevant as you have an out for enchantments, but with Powder Keg alone, I prefer to at least have some sort of answer for annoyances. I know I'm not the only person who has found 1x Cryptic Command a good card. It does suck if it's in your opening hand, yes. And I agree it isn't as game-breaking as Fact or Fiction, but it can be very useful for helping to stabilize mid-late game if you are having a rough time. I suggest testing the deck heavily both with and without the card to see if it's worth 1 or maybe 2 slots in your deck (I wouldn't play more than 2 because it is expensive and doesn't say "win the game" like Fact or Fiction)

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Originally Posted by UberNewHacks

Ok. Well I don't play Legacy often IRL so I might just try the singleton daze. What about Ophidian?

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Daze is terrible in MUC as well because we want to hit land drops. I would dare say Force Spike is better (and I really dislike Force Spike). Ophidian is also terrible in legacy because Swords to Plowshares and Lightning Bolt and Snuff Out are running around everywhere. In vintage, it's better because it can come down faster and people don't run Swords. Legacy, the card is going to killed faster than Bob does. Jace is a better option than Ophidian.

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Originally Posted by Jason

Using Cryptic Command as Dismiss or Fog is not why the card is in my deck. It is extremely versatile and can do those things (which aren't always terrible) but most importantly it can bounce annoying enchantments that have been forced through like Humility or Counterbalance along with countering another annoying spell or at worst, drawing me a card. If you run Nevinyrral's Disk, I can see this being less relevant as you have an out for enchantments, but with Powder Keg alone, I prefer to at least have some sort of answer for annoyances. I know I'm not the only person who has found 1x Cryptic Command a good card. It does suck if it's in your opening hand, yes. And I agree it isn't as game-breaking as Fact or Fiction, but it can be very useful for helping to stabilize mid-late game if you are having a rough time. I suggest testing the deck heavily both with and without the card to see if it's worth 1 or maybe 2 slots in your deck (I wouldn't play more than 2 because it is expensive and doesn't say "win the game" like Fact or Fiction)



Daze is terrible in MUC as well because we want to hit land drops. I would dare say Force Spike is better (and I really dislike Force Spike). Ophidian is also terrible in legacy because Swords to Plowshares and Lightning Bolt and Snuff Out are running around everywhere. In vintage, it's better because it can come down faster and people don't run Swords. Legacy, the card is going to killed faster than Bob does. Jace is a better option than Ophidian.

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Mkay. Thanks for quick logical explanations guys. If you run Cryptics I can justify Ebaying some for my Standard deck I guess if I might use them for Legacy.

I've read through the past few pages before realizing this thread is 60+ pages. Hopefully you guys are understanding when I ask the question rather then scour through every page but I have two questions about the deck.

1) With many decks running 23 islands, why not make it say 20 snow covered islands and 3 scrying sheets as a draw engine? Tried it, always helps me hit my land drops. I know somebody had to have done this at some point but I want to know why.

2) If the scrying sheets is a bad idea, why does this deck not run some fetchlands to help with brainstorm/top?

EDIT: just realized brainstorm is not in the deck, so ignore that part, just use to vintage where brainstorm is in every blue deck. sorry

Thanks.

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Originally Posted by impulsecontrol

I've read through the past few pages before realizing this thread is 60+ pages. Hopefully you guys are understanding when I ask the question rather then scour through every page but I have two questions about the deck.

1) With many decks running 23 islands, why not make it say 20 snow covered islands and 3 scrying sheets as a draw engine? Tried it, always helps me hit my land drops. I know somebody had to have done this at some point but I want to know why.

2) If the scrying sheets is a bad idea, why does this deck not run some fetchlands to help with brainstorm/top?

EDIT: just realized brainstorm is not in the deck, so ignore that part, just use to vintage where brainstorm is in every blue deck. sorry

Thanks.

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I've tried the Sheets + Top draw engine. It's not terrible; it really gets going in the mid-game and enables you to draw 2-3 cards at a time.

The problems are a.) it's pretty slow, and only useful mid-game during drawn-out stalemates and b.) because you run mostly basic lands, the few scrying sheets will be wasteland magnets and c.) it tempts you into running CounterTop, because you are already running Top, and if you go down that route, you're weakening the core of MUC and turning it more into a Tempo Thresh-type deck.

Soon I will attend a small local tourney and I need your advice.
That’s what I intend to play:

25 Island
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Spell snare
4 Force spike
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Think Twice
4 Vedalken shackles
4 Nevinyrral’s Disk
3 Call the Skybreaker

SB: 4 back to basics
SB: 4 Propaganda
SB: 4 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 blue elemental blast

I don’t want to change the main-deck - maybe it’s not the best MUC, but it has been working great for me - however, concerning the SB I have some questions:
How shall I board?
Is it advisable boarding out card-draw like Think Twice in the aggro matchup? Everything may be a threat, so I won’t have a possibility to cast it. As I’m running 25 Island, I don’t think I will be mana-screwed, even without a cantrip.
I have included Propaganda in my SB. But I wonder if Threads of disloyalty may be a better choice? – against Goblins and Zoo.
I don’t know how the metagame will be; though everything can be expected.

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Originally Posted by Tea

Soon I will attend a small local tourney and I need your advice.
That’s what I intend to play:

25 Island
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Spell snare
4 Force spike
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Think Twice
4 Vedalken shackles
4 Nevinyrral’s Disk
3 Call the Skybreaker

SB: 4 back to basics
SB: 4 Propaganda
SB: 4 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 blue elemental blast

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I'd prefer Ancestral Visions or Accumulated Knowledge over Think Twice and maybe some number of Facts. Call the Skybreaker is a Sorcery, you realize that? And you play 3 Copys of a retraceable threat that probably won't be cast before turn 10? I'd rather mill my opponent with Jace than using this card.

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Originally Posted by Tea

Soon I will attend a small local tourney and I need your advice.
That’s what I intend to play:

25 Island
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Spell snare
4 Force spike
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Think Twice
4 Vedalken shackles
4 Nevinyrral’s Disk
3 Call the Skybreaker

SB: 4 back to basics
SB: 4 Propaganda
SB: 4 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 blue elemental blast

I don’t want to change the main-deck - maybe it’s not the best MUC, but it has been working great for me - however, concerning the SB I have some questions:
How shall I board?
Is it advisable boarding out card-draw like Think Twice in the aggro matchup? Everything may be a threat, so I won’t have a possibility to cast it. As I’m running 25 Island, I don’t think I will be mana-screwed, even without a cantrip.
I have included Propaganda in my SB. But I wonder if Threads of disloyalty may be a better choice? – against Goblins and Zoo.
I don’t know how the metagame will be; though everything can be expected.

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Threads of Disloyalty isn't all that great against goblins. It isn't too bad against zoo, however. If you decide to put Threads of Disloyalty in, I would cut to 3x of each card.

With how your sideboard looks, here is how I would board against zoo:
If I lost game 1 (on the play game 2):
I would bring in 2x Blue Elemental Blast, 4x Propaganda and 2x Back to Basics cutting 2x Call the Skybreaker, 4x Think Twice, 1x Counterspell, 1x Nevinyrral's Disk

If I won game 1 (on the draw game 2):
I would bring in 3x Blue Elemental Blast, 4x Propaganda and 2x Back to Basics cutting 2x Call the Skybreaker, 4x Force Spike, 2x Counterspell, 1x Nevinyrral's Disk

Against goblins, the boarding would be similar except Back to Basics isn't as good against goblins and you would need to put all the BEB in regardless. I have found Force Spike to be good only when you are on the play in these match-ups.

I don't want to change the main-board; it's better than you might think.
Any suggestions how to board?

@ Jason
thank you for the response

You definitely don't want to rely 100% on Call the Skybreaker as they can simply Extirpate it. I run 1 CtS and 1 Morphling as win conditions in my MUC deck.

I really dislike Call of the Skybreaker: he's just big dumb blue fat. I think he's actually worse than Mahamoti Djinn. CotS can be REBed (and BEBed) and red hate is generally more common than blue hate. He costs one more mana and do you really think you'll need to recast him from the grave? Hopefully MUC has the game under control by the time the win condition enters the battlefield.

Sure Morphling is a little worse now damage no longer uses the stack, but his ability to protect himself from spot removal is key in a format with so many splashed Swords to Plowshares/Path to Exile. He is a better choice than CotS.

Edit: Ok, this is going to sound really scrubby, but what about testing out the suspend creatures (Deap-Sea Kraken, Errant Ephemeron, or even Infiltrator il-Kor). Their suspend costs are quite low and would also give time to lock down the game. When it is finally cast, your mana is open and it has haste. Hmm, I think I'm going to test this out. hehehe Could fall flat on my face, but worth a try.

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Originally Posted by MMogg

I really dislike Call of the Skybreaker: he's just big dumb blue fat. I think he's actually worse than Mahamoti Djinn. CotS can be REBed and red hate is generally more common than blue hate. He costs one more mana and do you really think you'll need to recast him from the grave? Hopefully MUC has the game under control by the time the win condition enters the battlefield.

Sure Morphling is a little worse now damage no longer uses the stack, but his ability to protect himself from spot removal is key in a format with so many splashed Swords to Plowshares/Path to Exile. He is a better choice than CotS.

Edit: Ok, this is going to sound really scrubby, but what about testing out the suspend creatures (Deap-Sea Kraken, Errant Ephemeron, or even Infiltrator il-Kor). Their suspend costs are quite low and would also give time to lock down the game. When it is finally cast, your mana is open and it has haste. Hmm, I think I'm going to test this out. hehehe Could fall flat on my face, but worth a try.

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Call the Skybreaker comes back. Why do people not find this good? You run 24 lands, you only need 10 or so in play before you are going to have more mana than spells. 15 castings of a 5/5 flier seems good. Djinn is in no way better (other than maybe blocking a tombstalker and not having to recast it). The whole idea is not having to use spells to protect your dude from trivial stuff like wrath, swords, elemental blasts and the like. Use spells and mana to keep your opponent from winning. Also, what happens if your opponent successfully counters your Morphling?

That said, I run 1 CtS for inevitability, 1 Rainbow Efreet for the evasion of spells (I find the ability to dodge all non split second removal an acceptable trade-off for for adding 3 turns to my clock), and 2 sower of temptation to combo with the rest of my control suite and give me a beat face option against other control.

I do agree that running only one kill card is very dangerous, but running three copies seems ok, as extirpate isn't the most common card. I would still suggest a 2/1 split for something else just to remove the remote loss chance with minimal change to the deck itself.

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Originally Posted by jthanatos

Call the Skybreaker comes back. Why do people not find this good?

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I thought I just mentioned some reasons, but I'll add a few more: because he costs seven to cast; he's both blue and red, making him vulnerable to blue and red hate; he's a token, so Deed or Engineered Explosives can take care of him quite easily, not to mention ANY bounce spell kills him; he's smotherable, Swordsable, Suff Outable, etc.; his ability to act like a Call of the Herd on roids is largely unnecessary as you ought to have the game under control by then. That's all I can think of for now.

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Originally Posted by jthanatos

Djinn is in no way better (other than maybe blocking a tombstalker and not having to recast it). The whole idea is not having to use spells to protect your dude from trivial stuff like wrath, swords, elemental blasts and the like. Use spells and mana to keep your opponent from winning. Also, what happens if your opponent successfully counters your Morphling?

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I wasn't seriously proposing running Djinn. I was merely highlighting that even unplayable Djinn is better than CtS. As for countering Morphling: if you are out-countered playing MUC then you deserve to lose. :wink: Seriously though, you can use the counter argument for nearly everything. Sticking to Morphling will save you more cards than CtS. Morhling can protect himself from all spot removal.

Call the Skybreaker would be just fantastic if it only was an instant, and it cost say, 1 mana less:

Call the Skybreaker 3UUU
Instant

Put a 5/5 Elemental token with flying into play.
Retrace


That having been said, we have to make do with what they print for us, so it's probably the best recurring win condition MUC has. The key here is the word "recurring". Yeah, 7 mana Mahamoti Djinn really sucks, but it provides inevitability because you will keep retracing it until they eventually run out of removal.

And of course, you should only run this as a 1-of or 2-of alongside Morphling and Shackles, imo.

What do you mean "under control". This is legacy. Most decks are made of bombs, counters, and card draw. I run a very counter heavy MUC build, and I still only have 14-15 pieces of counter magic while most thresh builds run ate least 8 and sometimes 12+. If I have to get into a counter war everytime I cast a spell, especially late game when thresh will just keep dropping threats to my empty board, it will break any control I have. Yes, back to basics and shackles ruin their day, but with Krosan Grip running wild they aren't nearly as sure as they used to be. While I agree, recasting is less exciting than just dodging that swords, CtS is just plain inevitable. He will kill your opponent eventually if they can't kill you first. Also, complaining about it costing 7? Really? Morphling essentially costs 6 if you want to have mana open to use its ability, and probably costs more as your opponents have had nothing to aim their vast array of spot removal at all game... and if he dies... well, he's gone, nice knowing him.

I was playtesting against BG Suicide last night. It was late-game; I had exhausted all my counters on annoyances like Bob and Hymn and Tarmogoyf and one Maelstrom Pulse on Shackles. He ended up finding and successfully casting three more Maelstrom Pulse on all three Shackles. My opponent top-decked a Tombstalker. The turn after, he played another Tombstalker. Were it not for Call the Skybreaker in my graveyard from a Fact or Fiction earlier, I would have lost that game. If I only had 2x Morphling as my win condition, I would not have won that game; same goes for Rainbow Efreet. Neither can kill a Tombstalker AND live to tell the tale. Call the Skybreaker can - the token may die but the card lives on to beat face.

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Originally Posted by jthanatos

What do you mean "under control". This is legacy. Most decks are made of bombs, counters, and card draw. I run a very counter heavy MUC build, and I still only have 14-15 pieces of counter magic while most thresh builds run ate least 8 and sometimes 12+. If I have to get into a counter war everytime I cast a spell, especially late game when thresh will just keep dropping threats to my empty board, it will break any control I have. Yes, back to basics and shackles ruin their day, but with Krosan Grip running wild they aren't nearly as sure as they used to be. While I agree, recasting is less exciting than just dodging that swords, CtS is just plain inevitable. He will kill your opponent eventually if they can't kill you first. Also, complaining about it costing 7? Really? Morphling essentially costs 6 if you want to have mana open to use its ability, and probably costs more as your opponents have had nothing to aim their vast array of spot removal at all game... and if he dies... well, he's gone, nice knowing him.

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So . . . not under control? So you're not playing Mono Blue Control, you're playing Mono Blue Bea-You-Down-Before-You-Kill-Me. So, if you haven't board control, what makes you think a 5/5 flier will certainly win you the game? You swing for 5 and perhaps they swing for 7, only their creatures are much cheaper.

The difference between 5 and 7 is quite big. Casting a turn seven Morphling with counter backup gives you more options (Force of Will, Mana Leak/Counterspell, Force Spike, etc.) or repel a bolt or Stp with Morphling's ability and keep your counter magic for other threats.

I just wonder how much of the recursion is "win more" and how much is really game saving. :confused:

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Originally Posted by Jason

I was playtesting against BG Suicide last night. It was late-game; I had exhausted all my counters on annoyances like Bob and Hymn and Tarmogoyf and one Maelstrom Pulse on Shackles. He ended up finding and successfully casting three more Maelstrom Pulse on all three Shackles. My opponent top-decked a Tombstalker. The turn after, he played another Tombstalker. Were it not for Call the Skybreaker in my graveyard from a Fact or Fiction earlier, I would have lost that game. If I only had 2x Morphling as my win condition, I would not have won that game; same goes for Rainbow Efreet. Neither can kill a Tombstalker AND live to tell the tale. Call the Skybreaker can - the token may die but the card lives on to beat face.

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How often does/did that happen? I'm not being a sarcastic dick, I just wonder how worth it it is for that one scenario.

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Originally Posted by MMogg

I just wonder how much of the recursion is "win more" and how much is really game saving. :confused:

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Here's the thing, MUC is all about getting as much utility as possible from each card in its deck. Unlike Morphling, Efreet, and all other useful finisher MUC has, Call doesn't need you to be in control for it to be effective. Being able to say "5/5 flier, go" is good. Even more so when it is repeatable. Also, why am I swinging in when they swing for 7, instead of just blocking and dropping another 5/5.

Believe me, it was hard for me to let Superman(morphling) leave my deck, but all my playtesting and much of the discussion in this thread shows that some split of Call + either Morphling or Efreet gives this deck what it needs. If you find Call not to work for you, fine, but give it a chance. Play with it, watch your elementals eat face without you worrying about them at all.

If I fear Extirpate, I would run 2 CtS, 1 Efreet.
Through CtS you can play a Tombstalber every turn from turn 7 on – especially if you run 3 of them.

I think Morphling is worth only in a build running 4 back to basics, since Morphling can make use of the time won by BtB more effectively than CtS.

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Originally Posted by MMogg

How often does/did that happen? I'm not being a sarcastic dick, I just wonder how worth it it is for that one scenario.

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I know Landstill doesn't like playing Dragon-go with MUC. By the time late-game hits, you're going to have to keep a lot of counter magic in your hand in order to save Morphling from the Wrath of God onslaught. They only have so many Wraths (2 or 3, depending) meaning Call the Skybreaker will get there eventually, while Morphling just sits around hanging out in the yard.

And as far as how often back to back Tombstalker happens against a control deck that isn't running white (re: RGU threshold or MUC): if one Tombstalker is allowed to hit play, chances are a second one is coming. If Shackles isn't online (thanks to K Grip or something else dumb), Call the Skybreaker can actually allow us to win through this.

I have also found Call the Skybreaker great against Armageddon Stax, Quinn the Eskimo AKA Jack Elgin's Pile of Amazingness (or The Mighty Quinn...whichever), Solidarity (surprising. right?), and Canadian Threshold. Morphling would have been just as good against Solidarity and Tempo Thresh; however, I find Superman to be terrible against Landstill and MWC running Wrath of God effects and it is only ok against any decks that have the ability to resolve a Tombstalker. Morphling is also not that exciting against Rock decks because it makes Pernicious Deed even more relevant than Call the Skybreaker does (hint: CtS tokens keep coming back)