I tend to agree with that, although I reckon FKZ demands you to have enough pressure to win right away, while the -2/-2 with a 5/7 body and permanent +2/+2 are useful on their own, if you don't have a horde of zombies yet.
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I tend to agree with that, although I reckon FKZ demands you to have enough pressure to win right away, while the -2/-2 with a 5/7 body and permanent +2/+2 are useful on their own, if you don't have a horde of zombies yet.
Wouldn't Iona/Sphinx of the Lost Truths be better if you can not bring out a legion of zombies?
Iona locks about 60 to 90% of opponents spells and Sphinx should allow for more chances to dig up the Bridges(like using a Bazaar that draws 3)
I couldn't think of a deck that cares less about a Troll. Troll is way too slow. First of all, They have like 20 dorks they can throw under a Troll to chump it. Additionally, modern Affinity lists play at least 10 evasive creatures (including Etched Champion) and 4 Cranial Platings, which will laugh at any Troll. Most lists complememnt that with Ravagers. Between all that stuff it's really hard to win for us. Basically, you need the Gold land, Discard dork, Dredger, Breathrough goldfish or they have a reasonable chance to race you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anusien
So you suggest Serenity for the Dredge sideboard??Quote:
Serenity beats Affinity and Enchantress.
@ menace 13: Of course she is better in those cases. That's why I like her a lot more than FKZ.
PS: Sorry for being a bit late with this reply, but The Source wasn't working for me lately.
So maybe our Ichorids will be sometimes 5/3 ?! That sounds like pure fun, while the opp. is playing Goblins or Elves.
At the cost to seeming an idiot, but why should we play a DR target which wins against deck that are nearly a bye to us?
Decks which get totally annihilated by Iona already.
I do not see the point to play this dude, and against GW decks doesn't kill reliquary, which is the real problem, assuming that you have managed to DR it before an activation.
I really dont know how decks like Goblins or Elves are a cakewalk postboard (and thats the only point where you have the Elesh in your 60; again its not a maindeck choice...). For me it wasnt and I think most Dredge players agree that those arent the MU you see most likeley.
PS: Iona against Goblins is not that great, Aether Vial anyone?
While you are basically right, they only have Vial in about half of the games. I know they seem to always have it, but maths tell otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by I am the brainwasher
Anyway, Goblins are notoriously bad at getting around a 7/7 Flying Angel while only being able to play one spell each turn (and that spell has to have a certain mana cost as well).
As of that new DR target, I will probably not play it. There's simply no need. In the main it's the definition of win more, which I really dislike. As a sb choice it's nowhere near as good as Firestorm against creature based decks. The main difference is that Firestorm cleans the opposing board (usually doing 4-5 damage instead of 2) while simultaneously starting your engine. That creature is a DR Target, which means that you would be winning anyway at the time you get to drop it (or did you ever have any problems against creature based decks after you resolved a Breakthrough?)
That depends on how much time I needed to get rid of their hate, so no things can be said in general here. I just dont own Firestorms so this is kinda of my tech. It might be that Firestorm is doing a better job for others, which might be somewhat more experienced, but as far as I played the deck (it really isnt my petdeck, just like it and give a shot here and there, even other players had told me that I am quite good at playing it) I didnt felt that I need those badly.
I just liked to have a a DR target that directly ends the game when it appears and I dont think that its a bad thing at all. I have that space in my sb and I dont think that its a waste of that.
If I would go into a tourney right know I would play the following sb:
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Natures Claim/Serenity
4 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revealation
1 Dread Return
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Realm Razer
1 Stalking Vengeance
1 Massacre Wurm/Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
How come more people don't use Stalking Vengeance? I play non-LED, like most people here, and he really contributes to our gameplan, more than you probably know. You know how we try not to over commit with our deck? He does that better than any other card! You don't have to swing at all if you DR him! You never have to risk your Bridges. How much less interaction with our opponent* do you guys want?
* The good kind, like the fact we play from our graveyard and our opponents have zero hate main.
The main thing about Stalking Vengeance is that usually when we want to DR our targets, we want to get in a gamebreaker, like FKZ (which gives us usually lethals) or Iona which locks our opponent at some degree. Stalking Vengeance does neither.Quote:
Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk
I wouldn't play him as an excuse for not losing bridges. If you have multiple bridges and you are animating FKZ, you usually win, so you shouldn't be worried about bridges.
That new guy, Elesh, looks promising though. Maybe a replacement for Ancestor's Chosen on SD or Iona MD.. It doesn't do anything vs combo, but usually Chosen too is little bit too slow. It should shine vs. zoo, elves, goblins and merfolk, while not always entirely killing their creatures, but making our creatures bigger.
Okay, and SV is still really good when you don't have Bridges, unlike something like FKZ. And Iona is just trying to do Cabal Therapy's job. I'm certain most of you haven't tested SV at all. Just try it, that's all I'm asking. The fact SV doesn't nuke your own Bridges isn't the only reason to play him - that's just a perk. You play him because he is really synergistic with Ichorid, Therapy, DR, and Narcomoeba + Thug recursion, while being a 5/5 hasty guy, and setting a clock while you build up Zombies. He isn't just some fattie, he's a perfect fit in our crazy Dredge puzzle.
Think about the situations where you don't draw the nuts and you have been slow dredging all game, like when you mull. You know those times when you are bringing back an Ichorid or two only to let them die for tokens, and maybe flying over for 1 or 2 a turn? It's these kind of non ideal situations that SV is really good, and I think those are the times we need to consider what DR target, if any, we want. Don't you agree?
Not trying to be that guy here but isn't this like the 30th time Stalking Vengeance was talked about in here (and the original LED-less Ichorid thread)
Why do we keep bringing up these discussions when we know how theyre going to end. I'll bet money that another 50 posts after this, we will once again talk about Stalking Vengeance.
Honestly though, te way I see it, if you're more comfortable running it, run it. Even though not everyone prefers Iona (especially Max McCall), I still run it. Some say Terastodon, others Sphinx. I guess it all depends on how you pilot the deck and how your local meta looks like.
That is exactly what I mean several pages earlier! I'm tired of discussing Exhume,Force, Brainstorm,Bloodghast,Stalking Vengeance and the like about once every month.Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
It's all a matter of preferance, though one can say that certain cards are less than optimal. But hey,if it works for you why change it?
Agreed, although I still find it good that someone post some results/report on the matter, showing how each option worked for him.Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
The problem with Elesh over Flame-Kin Zealot is that Flame-Kin Zealot wins now with your zombie horde. Elesh wins a turn later with your zombie horde, and very often kills your Bridges when it hits play. However, it's worth noting that Elesh can work with a few less zombies and clears the way.
Stalking Vengeance would probably require you run four Dread Returns to be at maximum effectiveness, because ideally you'd need two to maximize it. Dread Return Stalking Vengeance, Dread Return your Zombies into GGT, then hit them with a Therapy for the win. It's also sexy with Ichorid recursion. It's interesting as a slower sort of kill, but given that it's easy to remove, it's still pretty risky.
I got spanked by River Kelpie in Memphis. Admittedly, it was a god dredge, but the guy went from an empty hand and just one Troll in yard to dredging 6, hitting three Narcomoebas, a Dread Return, another dredger, and a Bridge, to killing me that turn. He got like six or seven dredges off the Kelpie that turn, leading me to think it might be worth testing.
I've done a lot of testing with the deck and felt that Firestorm is not needed in the board. The cards you take out, when bringing it in are partly nearly as good as Firestorm itself in matchups where you need it.
With the following board I've had a lot of success with the following board geared towards beating storm combo. I made this decission, because those decks tend to be quite bad matchups and because I don't want to dilute my maindeck too much by boarding out too many cards in any other matches.
4 Ancient Grudge
4 Force of Will
4 Mindbreak Trap
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Progenitus
1 Flame Kin Zealot
Progenitus + FKZ have made my painter matchups of any kind a cakewalk. If those decks were not relevant at the moment I would run Terrastodon + Darkblast #2 in those 2 slots.
Postboard the deck has 20 blue cards featuring FoW and Mindbreak Trap against storm combo, while goldfishing roughly turn 4 on average. Leyline of Sanctity has been bad for me, as it doesn't hinder them from comboing via Ad Nauseam and bouncing it afterwards. The 0 mana counter approach however has given me solid results in testing vs TES, UB ANT, Belcher and DD Tendrils.
Don't you think your SB is too narrow? I can see myself scooping to Leylines and Wheel of Sun and Moon all day if I'd play your SB.
I was considering to run my stock list tomorrow, but I'm kinda undecided on the SB.
Here's my list for reference:
// Lands
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
4 [8E] City of Brass
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
2 [OD] Tarnished Citadel
// Creatures
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [OD] Tireless Tribe
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
// Spells
4 [OD] Careful Study
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [FNM] Cabal Therapy
2 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
As for the SB, I was thinking something along these lines:
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Nature's Claim
3 Ray of Revelation
1 Realm Razer
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Massacre Wurm
1 Angel of Despair / Woodfall Primus
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
The Realm Razer is a tribute to the people running Enchantress there, at times, there are 5 Enchantress players out of ~60. Also, there might be someone piloting Lands and quite a few people play Landstill - I figure Realm Razer would be able to wreck their shit quite nicely, basically killing off Enchantress players when it hits play, as it kills Elephant Grass and makes it really hard for them to maintain Confinement.
Iona is in there to fight High Tide combo together with FKZ and possibly Realm Razer.
Massacre Wurm will come in against Tribal - I've seen some people pilot Combo Elves and CounterTop Rebels. Also, he kinda trumps the mirror, which 1-2 people play. And he's good against Goblins, I heard.
Angel of Despair or Woodfall Primus depends on whichever I like better - Angel of Despair might be nice to get rid of Blazing Archon or pissobly even killing Emrakul, if someone plays Reanimator or Show and Tell, respectively. On the other side, Woodfall Primus is usable twice and can give Enchantress fits.
The other cards should be self-explanatory.
I might also fit in 1-2 Darkblasts in the MD.
Thoughts?
I think multiple Darkblast maindeck isn't a bad idea at all right now. There are tons of Hierarchs, Welders, Dryad Arbors, Moms, Cursecatchers, Lackeys, and other things out there right now.
If I get this right, you want to be as flexible as possible with your sb. That's fine, but there is one problem you really have to consider: this deck almost never draws cards besided the opening seven and maybe the next 1-2 cards. Both Claim and Chain are cards that need to be drawn. Running less than 4 of them does not seem optimal for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nidd