[Deck] CounterTop Thopter

@Sanchezoe

I would move this to the Budget Forum honestyly. CounterTop Thopters isn't an inexpensive deck, especially if you ever choose to splash a third color.

But lemme take a look:

1. Where is Counterbalance, did you leave this out on accident?
EDIT: I see, makes sense. The very rare moments my wife plays with me I always play a shitty creature deck since she gets a kick out of attacking and doing little kid things...like, she thought Timbermare was THE SHIT.

2. I would cut Mentor of the Meek for more countermagic or another O-Ring

3. You have enough search/filter with Fabricate, E-Tutor, Brainstorm, top that I would cut the second Sword and both Platings for more utility

4. I have never used Hindering Light, and although I like the design of the card I would just run Spell Pierce.

5. Yeah, if yuo don't want to fork over all that dough for FoW, then 2-3 Misdirection is a good choice. I love that card.

So, I've been scouring over Magic Online Dailys to see if I find any hidden gems, and the following deck caught my attention. The user "Goliat2" has been 3-1 and 4-0 with this deck since forever, and won a premier a year ago if I'm not mistaken.

Here's the list:


1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
1 Karakas
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
1 Counterspell
1 Detention Sphere
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Entreat the Angels
4 Force of Will
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Moat
1 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Spell Pierce
1 Sword of the Meek
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Terminus
2 Thopter Foundry

Sideboard:

3 Dark Confidant
3 Meddling Mage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Perish
1 Seal of Cleansing
3 Terminus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Vendilion Clique

It may be that this only works online, but I think it deserves a chance. Sideboard Dark Confidants in a non-BUG control deck are something I've been wanting to play for some time now, and they shatter the control mirror.

Thoughts?

I think Thopters is well positioned at the moment. This may sound bullshit in the era of Abrupt Decay, but when you overload your deck with juicy targets, it becomes relatively easy to bait them into hitting the wrong piece.
The combo has a clear potential in a metagame full of Miracle and Goblins, and it doesn't suffer Deathrite Shaman.
Furthermore, to me it has advantages over the Rest in Peace+ Helm of Obedience counterpart:

+ Thopter combo costs 2 and 2, while Helm combo costs 2 and 4.
+ Thopter foundry alone can produce token/tokens in response to Decay; Sword may be equipped to a creature in a pinch. Although RiP is clearly good alone, Helm of Awakening alone is terribly useless and clunky.
+ Foundry pitches to Force of Will; neither of the RiP combo do.
+ Although not killing immediately, Thopter combo gains life and gives board presence. This is relevant against Grip, REB and Disenchant.
+ Thopter combo is more easily recurrable from graveyard via Academy Ruins, and once Foundry has resolved, it becomes very hard for a blue-based opponent to both stop Sword of the Meek and every other artifact entering the battlefield to not let the combo start.
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I started crafting a list in the new-formed metagame keeping an eye BGx decks.
I think the deck should start to drop Enlightened Tutor if it wants to keep up the pace. I know this sounds ridiculous because Thopter has always used that card as the centerpiece of its strcture, but it is a terrible topdeck and also clearly dead if drawn in critical occasions; plus, nowadays the piece it would grab (mainly CB and Ensnaring Bridge) can't grant a safe lock anymore, given the existence of Decay. The only worth target remained is Humility, but that's not enough for me.

Those slots should be converted in efficient, card advantage-providing tutors that are good to be drawn and offer lateral benefits. I came up with Stoneforge Mystic and Trinket Mage.
SFM:
+ Enables a parallel deck for the deck, which is Batterskull.
+ Is a devastating 2 drop that must be answered quickly; even if STP'd or Bolted, she has given CA.
+ Obviously, she acts as Sword of the Meek #2-3.
+ Provides a shuffling effect post Brainstorm/Jacestorm, and comboes with Jace.
+ Attacks and blocks.

Trinket Mage:
+ Acts as Top #5-6, which is crucial in this deck. This offers great resiliency in the face of discard.
+ Acts as EE #2-3. Being able to grab Explosives is quite relevant because BUG decks are now packing sb Pithing Needle to fight Top, which is a trump to their strategy. Since Explosives is the only removal decent to be kept in in those matchups (who would board Disenchant or such stuff?), having multiple ways to find it is quite valuable.
+ Can also ramp mana via Seat of the Synod. This is good when needing to reach 4 mana to Jace/(Verdict).
+ Doesn't suffer Pierce nor Snare.
+ Provides a shuffling effect post Brainstorm/Jacestorm, and comboes with Jace.
+ Pitches to Force.

Those two cards provide ways to strenghten the combos of the deck without playing a card that sucks against Control and discard. I also got to the conclusion that 4 Forces are useless, because most of the non-combo matchups are now fought with board presence, and this deck already tends to pile up with clunky cards sometimes.
You clearly don't want to draw into double Force-hand against a Hymn to Tourach/Thoughtseize deck where nothing is really worth doing a 2x1 (except for Confidant maybe), but the same may be said against e.g. Esperblade or even Miracle. 3 is a perfectly fine number for Force of Will right now, and I'd rather complement the counter-suite with good universal answers like Spell Snare (which has found again its power) and Counterspell.

This is what I came up with.

2 Trinket Mage
2 Stoneforge Mystic
---
3 Force of Will
3 Counterbalance
2 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
---
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
---
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
---
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Terminus
1 Engineered Explosives
---
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
---
1 Batterskull
---
1 Seat of the Synod
5 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas

SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast

SB: 3 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
---
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
---
SB: 1 Terminus
SB: 1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB: 1 Path to Exile
---
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 1 Flusterstorm

23 lands maindeck are the right number for a Wasteland-based metagame. I split sweepers between Terminus and Supreme Verdict because too much Terminuses are dead cards in the starting hand, whereas Verdict, although slow, pitches to Force and has an utility for the CB curve.

The sideboard consists of Trinket targets, 3 REBs (mandatory in the Miracle matchup and vs Show and Tell, which is kinda hard with this new approach), 3 Cliques (for the same matchups of REB, although 1 may be trimmed down for something else). Everything else is there to strengthen the aggro/tempo matchups (Terminus, Elspeth, P2E) or as multi-purpose solutions (Disenchant and Flusterstorm).

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I suggest trying this out to all the Thopter lovers. I've had a decent success with it on Cockatrice, and the deck seems to be well tailored to keep up with the influx of black-based decks, while keeping strong percentages against the rest of the fields as well as autowin combo/locks/recursions. I know the list may seem to be a bit clunky because of all the sacred cows were cut to 3x, but this is functional to the actual metagame (and working).

Now I have just finished reading over the first 20 pages and the last 10 and I have no experience with this deck in person, yet. But I do plan on building a varient of the deck but I play exclusively on MTGO and the decks I have played against all seem like CA is the most important thing so I was thinking of a BUG shell for the deck itself and dropping the white altogether. Shardless Agent just seems perfect for this deck as well as Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas for the draw engine. Possible even Dark Confidants from the board as more consistancy since you would be loosing the toolbox effect. You could still run Ensnaring Bridge for SnT and Merfolk matchups as well as and also EE and could run Trinket mage for a smaller silver bullet package. Has anyone attempted this? I know Bob was tested at first but found to be mediocre but that was with the E Tutor box. Plenty of kill spells for creatures like Perish (only hits your agents if you didnt board them out) and Engineered Plague for those pesky Gobs and Spirit Tokens. Thoughts????

I played a Legacy Daily Event with CounterThopters today to a 3-1 finish.
Here's the recorded video - http://www.twitch.tv/jkory/b/361458518

This was the list I used. I did not play perfectly, and punts were had.

4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
5 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas

2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry

1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Blood Moon

4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
2 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

4 Brainstorm
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Detention Sphere
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Spell Pierce
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Pyroblast
1 Terminus
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Flusterstorm
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Pyroclasm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Grafdigger's Cage

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Koby

I played a Legacy Daily Event with CounterThopters today to a 3-1 finish.
Here's the recorded video - http://www.twitch.tv/jkory/b/361458518

This was the list I used. I did not play perfectly, and punts were had.

4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
5 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas

2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry

1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Blood Moon

4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
2 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

4 Brainstorm
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Detention Sphere
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Spell Pierce
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Pyroblast
1 Terminus
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Flusterstorm
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Pyroclasm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Grafdigger's Cage

---

I feel like it needs more E. tutor to fetch your bullets, but I can't disagree with results that speak for themselves.

-Matt

@sdematt
I know in the past (long past in fact) we've ran a basic Mountain. During the tournament, it played out significantly weaker than a Volcanic Island. The list I used in the DE was using a basic Mountain, but during one of the rounds I found it in my opening hand and it was hindering. Mulliganed into the same mountain again, and finally went to 5. I don't think the benefits of protecting the red source from Wasteland is worth the added workarounds to it just being Volcanic. Against the decks where we need the red source (blue mirrors), Volcanic is good enough.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Koby

@sdematt
I know in the past (long past in fact) we've ran a basic Mountain. During the tournament, it played out significantly weaker than a Volcanic Island. The list I used in the DE was using a basic Mountain, but during one of the rounds I found it in my opening hand and it was hindering. Mulliganed into the same mountain again, and finally went to 5. I don't think the benefits of protecting the red source from Wasteland is worth the added workarounds to it just being Volcanic. Against the decks where we need the red source (blue mirrors), Volcanic is good enough.

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I asked about Tutors not Mountains :P

-Matt

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sdematt

I asked about Tutors not Mountains :P

-Matt

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I'm aware. I don't think there is much value in the 2nd tutor either. I never thought "i could use another E-tutor in my hand right now" at any point in the tournament. I would sooner play the 2nd SFM than the 2nd Tutor. Muddle the Mixture also wouldn't be the worst - it puts the card directly in my hand, shuffles, and has secondary use as a conditional counterspell. Being an additional blue card, and being 2cc for CB are both relevant. Not being able to do CB triggers with Etutor is a con. The amount of card disadvantage already present in this deck makes me hesitant to run more Etutors.

I'm actively looking to find ways to add more CA elements. A Predict could go a long way.

but when you need your Bridge, how are you finding it?

-Matt

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sdematt

but when you need your Bridge, how are you finding it?

-Matt

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Not going to lie - getting Lucky. In past versions we ran 2 copies and upto 2 tutors. I don't think in the ADecay metagame it's pulling much of its weight. Fetchlands + Top are doing a lot of work in this deck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Koby

I'm actively looking to find ways to add more CA elements. A Predict could go a long way.

---

I always preferred the black splash over the red one for the sole reason of dark confidant in the board. Back in the day, swapping him in was a pretty big thing and I loved it. You're only running 2 SFM, so it's not like there's a lot of creature removal rolling around.

Yeah yeah blood moon is cool but you might aswell run back to basics instead. You get way more out of the black splash over the red one, imo. I like to think resolved bob > holding REB and B2B ~ the same level as an active blood moon. You also get access to derp sb cards like Engineered Plague and the lot.

2 cents, etc.

what do you guys think of this list, it has done well in spain as some really high level tournaments

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...9&iddeck=86260

I don't know why, but I was really in the mood to play a throwback, so I tossed together CounterThopters this weekend. I played This list. The maindeck is 58/60 identical to the list I played before Avacyn Restored was printed and introduced miracles.

I'm sure the deck could be tuned a lot more to work against today's metagame, but the primary problem I experienced was that the deck is really slow to get online. I went 1-3 and in all but one of my games, I was below 10 before I had really started executing my plan.

Bringing this one back from the dead:

3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Transmute Artifact
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Academy Ruins
4 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Moat
1 Humility
3 Supreme Verdict
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Island
3 Plains
2 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Azorius Signet
3 Counterbalance

SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 The Abyss
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Containment Priest
5 open

No time to explain since I have an exam in 20 minutes, but I will when I'm done.

-Matt

Just saw this deck tech: http://www.starcitygames.com/events/...ndry_with.html

And wandered to see if the deck is discussed here, but it seems like all the discussion is old.. :rolleyes:

Necro...

So I saw this deck place 5th place last month...

http://www.scvopen.com/top-8-decklists-legacy-scvopen7/

I really want to play this...but I'm just curious how hard this deck would fold to elves.