[DTB] Blade Control

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Originally Posted by Jessenator

Hey guys, I'm sure all of you have been seeing 2-3 Spell Pierces in the Esper Stoneblade list. I have been testing the deck repeatedly and have found that Pierces are probably the worst cards in the deck. It really does not negate anything that I want it to and its usually just a blank card that I want to get value out of immediately. I can see it is extremely good against the UW Miracles deck or combo decks, which haven't been too popular in the US.

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Eh...lets you play turn 3 Stoneforge Mystic with some protection and doesn't afraid of anything.

Also...snap Spell Pierce Brainstorms and Ponders from RUG delver as a good player knows how to maximize value from Brainstorm and Ponder. Sure you side out some Spell Pierces against RUG delver, but its pretty vital to catch their card filtering.

Spell Pierce is also not completely dead against Maverick as you can still Spell Pierce Green Sun's Zenith and catch a Swords to Plowshares when they get greedy.

Current list I'm running is:
22 lands
7 fetch
5 basics
9 dual
1 utility

22 spells
3 spell pierce
4 swords to plowshares
3 inquisition of kozilek
4 brainstorm
3 lingering souls
1 intuition
4 force of will

11 creatures
4 stoneforge mystic
4 dark confidant
3 snapcaster mage

2 equipment
1 umezawa's jitte
1 batterskull

3 jace, the mind sculptor

Thing I like about most Dark Confidant is that if he gets killed, that's one less piece of removal on stoneforge. If he doesn't get killed then you can stick stoneforger because you're sure to have answers.
Considering there are 36 cards CMC<=1 and only 8 cards CMC>=4 blind flips aren't bad. But maybe I just gypsy luck everything. The two equipment both gain life, so if you have the CA you can stabilize on low life without much fear.

I've also been considering Baleful Strix since he replaces himself immediately, trades with fatties, carries jitte like a boss, and pitches to FoW.

Thoughts?

@nabuchodonosor:
I felt exactly the way you do about the black splash. Splash just for discard was cute but no necessary in my opinion. Cards like Lingering Souls maindeck have to be a metagame decision, because the card sucks in many matchups (I moved mine to the sideboard).
But after testing an esper list myself on tournaments I can see that the discard is worth the splash. It replaces Mental Misstep to a certain degree (protect Stoneforge) as well as gives you valuable information and lines of play you otherwise wouldn't have.
It is sick against combo decks as well. The only downsides are the more vulnerable manabase and the lack of factories. And after testing, the advantages from discard are worth it.
Even with a straight UW list you often have to play a dual land or factory so you get wastelanded too. Sure you play 24 lands but your curve is higher with UW (usually). Therefore, wasteland hurts you just as much as the esper lists.
I can see playing without black discard if the format slows down a little more. Then you should add Ancestral Visions back in. But at the moment I think the first 3 turns are so important that playing a higher curve is not an option.
In addition spell pierce is great against Canadian. Probably the best legal counterspell in the format against this deck. Not to mention combo.

@GreenHornet:
Confidant is a great card, but I think playing him in a meta with Canadian and fast Combo is just not good enough, because you need 2 or more turns to really get ahead. Even against control decks like Miracle you just enable their removal. I can see it being good against maverick, but it will eat swords. Sure your Stoneforge will most likely not die if you follow with that, but maverick almost never loses to one equipment.
If you run Intuition in your deck I think you should add some Engineered Explosives and Academy Ruins that you can look for.

I don't think Lingering Souls belong in the main deck anymore. In the sideboard is it probably desperately needed, along with 1-2 Cabal Therapy and Intuition splashed in. You have an extremely attrition-heavy board that's very strong against the Mirror / Miracles.. You only want it against the mirror and control / stall decks. That should only take up 15% of the meta at most (in the US). I agree, I probably have to put the Spell Pierce in the mainboard.. Its not very optimal but stoneblade has a weak early game and Spell Pierce / Discard helps to smooth the two decks evenly.

Splashing black for discard is absolutely key. You don't lose "tempo" because its a 1 black mana spell that disables their next turn. There really isn't a tempo loss from playing a 1 CC sorcery that makes their next couple turns worse. What are you desperately trying to play that turn? A creature? Probably not..

I have two LS in the main deck, none in the side. I've also played with none main and 3 in the side. I think either work out reasonably if you play them right.

The reason I moved some back to the main deck is that when you're relying on Jitte in part, it's nice to have the extra bodies, because many decks can remove your Stoneforge/Snapcasters before you can equip. There's nothing sadder than seeing an unequipped Jitte on your board as you're getting stomped.

The 3 JTMS has been absolutely horrible. I have cut back to 2 and 1 in the side and it's working out smoothly. The format has a little too many Wasteland and Spell Pierce for him as a 3 of.. I also like the Trinket Mage package. It's been amazing lately. Searching up for EE to board wipe for 1/2. Or search top just for value and filtering. Top allows you to set up the Terminus in the sideboard, which I have been playing a 3 of. Also Trinket Mage can search up Pithing Needle and Nihil Spellbomb against grind decks and RUG/Maverick respectively, and recycling Spell Bomb with Academy Ruins is just dirty.

The one card I would never leave the main board is Vindicate. Absolutely amazing in almost every match up.. One of the best cards late game and kills equipments and Planeswalkers. Another thing is that I have cut back on the 4th Snapcaster. So many times early game I have just leave a Snap in hand then 1-4 and either I'm casting it as a 2-1 with no additional value, or I'm holding up blue mana for counter spells.

Been teching one of Spell Snare, card is quite good, since no one suspects it... Ever.. And they get the most awkward face when you counter their 2 drop.

I understand lingering souls is a metagame call but please correct me if i am wrong, isn't it good against most creature decks like RUG, maverick, fish and even UW miracles after a terminus. The one decks that LS wouldnt shine in are combo decks so why are most esper blade lists these days cutting LS?

What is our best maindeck answer to a resolved creature from sneak and show or reanimator? Besides the miser karakas, of course. Obviously, not letting show and tell or a reanimation spell resolve is the first line of defense, but if an enabler does in fact make it through, shouldn't we have some sort of clutch? I'm thinking either a pair of oblivion rings or a pair of sower of temptation, although I'm inclined to think sower is too slow.

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Originally Posted by 3duece

What is our best maindeck answer to a resolved creature from sneak and show or reanimator? Besides the miser karakas, of course. Obviously, not letting show and tell or a reanimation spell resolve is the first line of defense, but if an enabler does in fact make it through, shouldn't we have some sort of clutch? I'm thinking either a pair of oblivion rings or a pair of sower of temptation, although I'm inclined to think sower is too slow.

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I would SB in gilded drakes and humility for them.

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Originally Posted by mike1987

I understand lingering souls is a metagame call but please correct me if i am wrong, isn't it good against most creature decks like RUG, maverick, fish and even UW miracles after a terminus. The one decks that LS wouldnt shine in are combo decks so why are most esper blade lists these days cutting LS?

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It's very good against UW Miracles, because it puts pressure on their PWs and puts pressure without over extension to a Terminus. Maverick doesn't care about your Lingering Souls, and Delver will counter or Waste you so you don't even have the lands to cast it.. It doesn't actually stop their Mongoose or their way to win. Linger Souls should be in your 75 definitely. It helps in the mirror and some creature based match ups. But in the current meta where Wastelands / Spell Pierce and Tempo based decks are so common, its not entirely a good idea.

Testing the mirror, and was wondering if there was any other card that can deal with lingering souls other than lingering souls? I am having trouble finding a card that does not get two for oned by it. So far Vedalken Shackles is My short list.

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Originally Posted by Guy I Don't Know

Testing the mirror, and was wondering if there was any other card that can deal with lingering souls other than lingering souls? I am having trouble finding a card that does not get two for oned by it. So far Vedalken Shackles is My short list.

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Jitte and Sulfur Elemental (if you splash for red for blasts anyway).

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Originally Posted by 3duece

What is our best maindeck answer to a resolved creature from sneak and show or reanimator? Besides the miser karakas, of course. Obviously, not letting show and tell or a reanimation spell resolve is the first line of defense, but if an enabler does in fact make it through, shouldn't we have some sort of clutch? I'm thinking either a pair of oblivion rings or a pair of sower of temptation, although I'm inclined to think sower is too slow.

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Why play only 1 karakas when you can have 2. This deck has multiple ways to get rid of one if you already have 1 in play anyway.

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Originally Posted by Guy I Don't Know

Testing the mirror, and was wondering if there was any other card that can deal with lingering souls other than lingering souls? I am having trouble finding a card that does not get two for oned by it. So far Vedalken Shackles is My short list.

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Surgical.. And a lot of players don't maintain Turn player's priority do you can surgical after casting to eliminate souls. Jitte is your best bet though.

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Originally Posted by Jessenator

It's very good against UW Miracles, because it puts pressure on their PWs and puts pressure without over extension to a Terminus. Maverick doesn't care about your Lingering Souls, and Delver will counter or Waste you so you don't even have the lands to cast it.. It doesn't actually stop their Mongoose or their way to win. Linger Souls should be in your 75 definitely. It helps in the mirror and some creature based match ups. But in the current meta where Wastelands / Spell Pierce and Tempo based decks are so common, its not entirely a good idea.

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Ah i see, thanks a lot. As i just started playing this deck, I realised esper stoneblade is not an easy deck to pilot. It's not like RUG or miracles where its pure tempo or control. It has both aggro(SFM) and control(jtms) components. So sometimes it got me pondering if I should go aggro or control. I guess it depends on the deck we are facing.

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Originally Posted by mike1987

Ah i see, thanks a lot. As i just started playing this deck, I realised esper stoneblade is not an easy deck to pilot. It's not like RUG or miracles where its pure tempo or control. It has both aggro(SFM) and control(jtms) components. So sometimes it got me pondering if I should go aggro or control. I guess it depends on the deck we are facing.

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I think if you're facing against a slower blue deck. Or a blue deck in general, I'd like to go control aspect. But the deck is somewhat linear on its plays, but the cards allow it to attack from multiple angles. Hand discard is what really makes this deck excellent pick on the meta. The RUG matchup is pretty horrible at times but running more fetch lands allows us to utilize Brainstorm and get basics more consistently. I have figured out that Ponder is kind of a must in these decks. It helps us find lands, make Snapcaster more viable, and manipulate card quality. Mainly I like it to fetch for the lands.

I'll be going into the Legacy Championships this weekend at GenCon with a variation, I expect good results unless I draw those 1-2 lander lands and get wasted out.

Another tip, it's never bad to put in 1 more land in the mainboard, I'm at 22 and 2 Ponders and I'm probably going to 23 (plus 1 Mishra's factory) for Saturday. You are not as likely to lose to flooding compared to missing land drops.. Missing land drops in this deck is just absolutely awful..

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Originally Posted by mike1987

Ah i see, thanks a lot. As i just started playing this deck, I realised esper stoneblade is not an easy deck to pilot. It's not like RUG or miracles where its pure tempo or control. It has both aggro(SFM) and control(jtms) components. So sometimes it got me pondering if I should go aggro or control. I guess it depends on the deck we are facing.

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The difficult part about this deck is how to play the creatures imo, Mystic and Mage that is.

I played Mystic conservatively at first but I have more success by playing it aggressively and pressuring the opponent. Mystic is all about adding a little bit of pressure here and there, testing the waters in the earlygame. Not like a Delver for RUG that has to resolve and stick. Later on in the game, when resources are low, drawn Mystics become more and more important so I try to protect them more then.

Snapcaster is pretty much reserved for removal against creature decks. That's not hard to see. In more control oriented matchups it is very hard to decide when to play Mages. I play them rather conservatively and only ever use them for Brainstorms when they are effectively Ancestral Recalls or I'm under severe pressure. Some people flashback Ponders loosely, I always disliked such plays. Even if your flashback options are few I try to wait for better stuff to appear as long as possible.

There's also the "flash it to chump block unthresholded Mongoose" or the "flash it end of turn, attach jitte next mainphase and surprise attack" that you sometimes need to do. I used to think all the blade variants were pretty boring but this deck is starting to grow on me.

So, I've picked up Esperblade recently again, because it has a good Miracle-Match-Up and that's the list that I ended up with after serveral testings and stuff:

//Lands
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins
//Kreaturen
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Lingering Souls
//Counterspells
3 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
//Cantrips
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
//Discard
4 Thoughtseize
//Planeswalker
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
//Removal
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives
//Equipments
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
//Sideboard
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Disenchant
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Perish
1 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
1 Path to Exile
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Lingering Souls
1 Umezawa's Jitte


It has a very balanced stand against all the Decks to Beat at the moment. Though, there are some points I'd like to discuss.

1) The relevance of Force of Will in the meta at the moment. Our blue-count is low. We play taxing counters and discard. Do we need Force of Will at the moment? I could easily see me replacing my FoWs up there with ... 1 Discard 1 Spell Pierce 1 Vindiacte..as they are catch-alls too. If I am wrong about the "meta" we have at the moment, and if there actually is some combo out there then I'd not cut it. But I am not sure.

2) The Basic-Land-Count. We do not have any tough Mana-requirements. And I'd like to have a second Plains somewhere. Could you find a decent spot?

3) The Extra-Land-Spot: We got 2 Utility-lands atm, 1 Karakas 1 Ruins, but in this Deck Ruins is just way better. Karakas is not really needed anymore in a deck that can not tutor for it - in the given meta.

So I'd like to fit in a second Plains, while changing the Karakas to a Ruins. I might have to up the Land-Count while doing this. I could cut a FoW for it? What do you think of this changes:

-1 Karakas
-1 Force of Will
+1 Plains
+1 Acadmey Ruins

Or do you have a better idea what to remove if not the Force of Will?

Greetings and thanks!

I think FoW is still mandatory. Unless you know somehow you're only going to be facing fair decks, I couldn't see cutting it. Pierce becomes irrelevant in many matches, so pitching them to FoW, especially in the late game, isn't terrible.

Like you, though, I've also cut it to 3 MD and 1 in the side. I've also moved 1 Jace to the SB.

I don't know if that 4th Pierce in the SB is necessary. I'd rather have another discard, or another PtE. (Note: I'm trying Terminus in place of PtE, to account for more swarm decks like Merfolk & Goblins; but haven't had enough experience to draw a conclusion yet.)

IMO, 2 Cliques main is better than 1.

I'd also replace 2 Thoughtseize with IoK. I know this is a bone of contention, but IoK nabs many threats, or the enablers for those threats (e.g. SnT, GSZ) just as well as Thoughtseize, with no loss of life, and thus is often better suited as a SCM target. The life loss is not relevant in all matchups, but it's relevant in many. You could throw an extra TS to the SB.

I would not ditch Karakas. Personally I think 1 Plains is enough (you have nothing that requires WW), but if I were to make room for a 2nd, I'd drop a Marsh Flats.