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Seems standard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zirath
My current issue right now is losing the dice roll, mainly a turn one Delver.
Typically I never win this game. I was thinking of [card]Powder Keg[/card] (Ratchet Bomb doesn't wind under an active Tangle Wire if needed) to deal with Insectile Abberation and but in doing so, I also undo my Chalices.
Any suggestions?
Otherwise I am feeling more comfortable with the 12Post list.
Contagion Clasp? It also has some potential for fun interactions with Tangle Wire and Chalice.Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
Wow. Contagion Clasp? Su-Chi? Nim Deathmantle? Crystal Ball? Naked Singularity? Let's get back on the reservation here.
I'm not a big fan of Tangle Wire without Goblin Welder. The card really shines when you can sacrifice it before it really affects you. I'm not dismissing it, though, because its a fine card if you have sufficient disruption in the first couple turns.
I also dislike Rishadan Port in a deck running Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors. We're either hurting ourselves to tap their land (using Ancient Tomb) or cutting off our own mana development (using City of Traitors). Sure, we have the 12 post lands to help, and use could pay for Port easier in later turns. But isn't Wasteland and our other hate cards just superior? Isn't it better to just use our mana to jam out big creatures?
I'm working on a Forge-less build, but sticking to traditional card choices.
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
3 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Spellskite
3 Steel Hellkite
2 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
1 Karn Liberated
1 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Trinisphere
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
4 Wasteland
---
2 All is Dust
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Witchbane Orb
2 Wurmcoil Engine
I'm happy to field questions about my build.
Went 6-3 at DC (no byes) with Welder MUD. In pre-tournament testing, I couldn't get the 12-post version to a place I liked against Shardless BUG or Delver decks, so I audibled to Blood Moons and Welder recursion. Congrats to both MUD players who took a 12-post version into Day 2.
Creatures (21):
4 Goblin Welder
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
Spells (19):
4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Blood Moon
3 Lotus Petal
2 Voltaic Key
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Staff of Nin
1 Staff of Domination
Lands (20):
2 Darksteel Citadel
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Wasteland
4 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
Sideboard (15):
3 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Blood Moon
1 Platinum Emperion
2 Trinisphere
1 Karn, Liberated
2 Bottled Cloister
1 All is Dust
1 Ensnaring Bridge
I beat Merfolk, TES, GW Enchantress, RUG Delver, Elves, and UWR Miracles. Lost to Manaless Dredge, a 2nd Elves player, and my round 9 win-and-in against UR Delver. My losses were due to a combination of deck inconsistency, bad mulligan decisions, misplays from being unfamiliar with the Welder version, and a couple misplays from nerves. My Elves opponent that gave me a loss had the nuts twice, but I could have made the game quite close if I had played better. Given what I played against, I really would have liked access to a 2nd Hellkite in the board, and possibly some ratchet bombs somewhere.
Overall, I'm happy with the choice. Goblin Welder was completely insane all day long. In fact, all the creatures were A+, with the exception of Forgemaster, which I see as a necessary evil to add consistency to the deck. However, Stifle is popular enough at the moment that I am inspired to test a version without him.
I'm surprised you main blood moon and not trinisphere, when trinisphere is better against more decks. Blood moon destroys certain decks, but I wouldn't put it before trinisphere. Also, did you feel you had too few lands? I see you have lotus petals, but 20 lands seems low for this version, idkQuote:
Originally Posted by Snapback
That could make Smokestack a viable prison pressure piece. Or if the mana is high enough, Deathmantle alone could make never ending Wurm tokens with Deathmantle + Smokestack.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Holland
Why play Forgemaster if you don't have any bombs to tutor (apart from Wurmcoil Engine)? Wouldn't MUD Stompy be better? If I really wanted the Forgemaster, I would at least play a 1-of Myr Battlesphere and Phyrexian metamorph to one-shot my opponent when needed*. And possibly a Sundering Titan and Steel Hellkite. I don't like Blightsteel because it's too conditional.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zirath
* EOT tap Forgemaster, sac 3 artifacts, get Myr Battlesphere and 4 tokens. During my turn, tap Forgemaster, sac 1 token and 2 other artifacts, get Phyrexian Metamorph, copying Myr Battlesphere, entering the battlefield with 4 tokens (7 tokens total). Attack with the Myr Battlesphere that is not summoning sick, tapping the other Battlesphere and 7 tokens for a total of 18 damage...
Well with Forgemaster, he can 'recycle' Grim Monoliths.
I decided to trust in Chalice and Lodestone, and sideboard Trinispheres, to carry 2 of 3 against those decks. I wanted something main-deck that you had to use Abrupt Decay on the spot for. As the tournament turned out, I didn't play against any BUG, junk, or blue blade decks, but they were certainly filling up the top tables. As far as lands, 20 was tight, but I mostly felt it when the monoliths and metalworkers got killed or countered. With few ways to filter or draw more cards, I want gas on top of the library as much as possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gojira
I think turning extra Chalices, Trinispheres and dead Monoliths into Wurmcoil Engines is a pretty good plan. I have to tune it a little. I might end up cutting the Forgemen altogether but that's where I am starting from.
I had a similar idea recently as well (trying to do Stompy + Forgemaster), but haven't gotten around to really fiddling with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zirath
I do think that with the current influx of TNN, every MUD deck should be playing at least 1 Steel Hellkite over a Wurmcoil Engine due to his ability to deal with the little blue super-wall.
Why is Steel Hellkite better than Wurmcoil Engine (in Post Builds):
- Glimmerpost nets you life, so Lifelink from Wurmcoil isn't crucial.
- You can nuke your opponent's board with Steel Hellkite
- With Multiple Cloudposts, you can swing with Steel Hellkite for 5+
- Flying
I tried playtesting Wayne's list and it boggles me how he went undefeated for day 1. I do agree that it's explosive but it was also awkward. I did have a hand where I kept four cards and won. Chalice into 3sphere into Tangle Wire into more Tangle Wire (Metamorph) bought me enough time to build up my Cloudpost count to get Steel Hellkite going. Then swinging with a 10/5 Hellkite for turns felt great.
I think two Ratchet Bomb is key in the sideboard. Sometimes you will have all the Chalices/Trinispheres in the world when you're on the draw and a T1 Delver can be all they need to win. Ratchet Bomb is a nice escape button that doesn't cost too much mana (not All is Dust) when you're playing against tempo strategies.Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
I'm currently playing with this list, which is about 50/50. It has the biggest problems against UWx and seems to heavily rely on explosive hands.
I like the Wurmcoil Engine / Lodestome Golem aggro fallback, but still feel like something's missing, mostly to do with bad draws. Would love some advice to shore up some of the weaknesses (and find out what the weaknesses are, as well).
My local meta has Maverick, D&T, BUG Delver, Lands, Affinity, Elves, Esper Stoneblade, and RUG.
//LAND
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Buried Ruin
//ARTIFACTS
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
3 Voltaic Key
3 Lightning Greaves
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Staff of Domination
1 Spine of Ish Sah
//CREATURES
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Platinum Emperion
//SIDEBOARD
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Trinisphere
3 Defense Grid
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Bottled Cloister
2 Faerie Macabre
If you don't have to worry about Dredge or Reanimator, you should play Tormod's Crypt to hose Maverick (KotR), because that card can be quite the beating. Also, if Maverick, D&T, Affinity, and Elves are rather prevalent, you should play Steel Hellkite in multiples.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle
For your list in general, I think 2 Crucibles is 2 too many (1 is the most you need to run, if at all). I also dislike 6 singleton creatures.
I will try to take to make room for 2 hellkite. First time since i play MUD that im trying this.
maybe ill switch my 2 all is dust for 2 hellkites since its 1 mana cheaper, can go true counters with cavern and is a mana sink win con.
I already play 2 ratchet bomb MAIN at the moment because its all delvers, tarmogoyf, kotr and nemesis. I suggest every serious MUD deck bring their removal package to deal with this crap.
For stompy i would go with Karn (targeted reusable and win con) and ratchet bomb (cheap, flexible). For forgemaster i would go with spine of ish shah (awesome recurring with welder). Others like Hellkite, allisdust etc are a matter of taste.
I run 2 All is Dust in the side along with my 3 main Hellkites. I don't play Forgemaster, but I do play 1 Spine main and 2 more side, because it's the best card against Show and Tell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Holland
another observation wich who some might not agree: trinisphere is a nice card against storm decks, counters etc but should NEVER be MAIN deck!
Against some decks its just #$%.. Because 2 is a holy number for people of the MUD religion!! (Karn told me this in a dream :mad:)
Sol land give 2, monolith is 2, metalworker makes pairs of 2 mana...trinisphere doesnt respect the number two.
I have had moments where i needed a revoker or a monolith wich i couldnt drop because of trinisphere.. that cant be right.. Plus if you have a metalworker or monolith out you often want to play 2 spells, one thread and one defensive 2 mana card wich you cant because of trinisphere!
I think defense grid is better against blue decks with counters. defense grid respects our number 2. True believers should burn trinisphere at the stake! (unless expecting storm)
The thing is, however, that with trini in play you can lock people from play with waste and ports. However I have to admit that sometimes is awkward and multiples are unuseful.
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Do you seriously have a problem casting spells because they cost 3 instead of 2?
Also, if you can generate 6 mana, you can play two 2 mana spells with Trinisphere in play. Fancy that!
Trinisphere is absolutely better than Defense Grid, and it shuts down a lot of decks in Legacy. It should be 3 or 4 in the main every single time.