Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
How about going the other direction with TA Tempo? Double down on 1cc creatures that will kill the opponent if they're not answered. Make the list non-grave dependent with only a couple of Treasure Cruises that care if your GY has cards in it.
Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Mishra's Factory
Selection/Advantage
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 Treasure Cruise
Disruption
4 Stifle
3 Wasteland
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
4 Abrupt Decay
Lands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
23 lands, with 7 effectively uncounterable spells. 4 more uncounterable spells in Abrupt Decay. 15 key plays that invalidate REB/Pyroblast. 23 instants/sorceries for Delver (low but not completely out of range and the opponent will remove Delver reflexively anyway). 26 blue spells for Force of Will. 12 early creatures that force a response under Standstill making it very likely you will have a turn 2 Standstill opportunity every time it is in your hand.
Turn 1 Delver/DRS will still get removed most of the time, taking with it one of the opponent's few removal spells. Dreadnought will be a killer when it lands but you don't care if you don't see it because the game plan is to grind the opponent down with things he can't respond too very well.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
I like this. I would drop the bayou for another waste.
I dont see how this deck would have probelms against miracles
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
KobeBryan
I like this. I would drop the bayou for another waste.
I dont see how this deck would have probelms against miracles
I guess it is the same 15 colored lands that BUG Delver has been running forever. Nobody seems to be on the wasteland-surgical extraction out of the board plan either. So maybe the 4th Wasteland would be a good move. It's not like the list is heavy black or green and only Abrupt Decay gets shut down entirely if you lose the seas or the trops anyway.
I'll test that list and see if it sinks or swims. I got the idea from playing a lot of Ur Dreadstill recently and discovering to my surprise that it was still a very solid list.
On the Miracles side, that's one of the few lists where Standstill is really a double-edged sword. It's very hard to drop a Standstill into an active top unless you know your threat isn't going to get removed in response before the Standstill resolves. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it is hard to win a hand sculpting contest against an active top.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Hi All, I wanted to post my list that I've had good success with, which is quite similar to Noah Cohen's list (GPNJ top 16) but with some modifications (+1 land, -1 TNN, +1 Disfigure, -1 Spell Pierce). Recently, I have had ~50/50 against Maverick, which seems to be a tough MU for us. I will be getting in a LOT of play testing this weekend, and will post results on Sunday or Monday. Here's my 75:
4 DRS
4 Delver
4 Goyf
4 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize
3 TCruise
4 Brainstorm
2 Disfigure
1 Spell Pierce
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 FoW
3 UG Sea
3 Trop
4 Wastland
9 Fetch
Sideboard:
2 Disfigure
2 Flusterstorm
2 GD Cage
2 Spell Pierce
1 Thoughtseize
2 Golgari Charm
1 Null Rod
1 Krosan Grip
2 V Clique
I really like the 75 card package, as it include several playsets of important cards for us. Thoughtseize has been awesome. I am finding that card more relevant in most games. There are 12 anti-equipment cards (4 TS, 4 AD, 1 Kgrip, 1 Null Rod, 2 V Clique), 10 creature removal spells (4 AD, 4 Disfigure, 2 Golgari Charm), lots of options (21!) against Storm/combo (4 TS, 4 FoW, 4 Daze, 3 Spell Pierce, 2 Flusterstorm, 2 GD Cage, 2 V Clique). I am finding this 75 can cover just about anything. If I miss any card at all, it's my old 2-of MB Liliana. I get that she does not work well against Cruise decks, but she is a house against so many others. In my experience she is what gave Team America more midrange (aside from Library and Hymns, and a while back Jace). Has anyone else tinkered with getting her back in the 75?
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Gerard Fabiano took second place at the players championship with 2 liliana's MB and 1 SB.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=77688
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jo11ygrnreefer
you can't really judge that meta. Also, he was playing control instead of tempo
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jo11ygrnreefer
I played this in a local 8man. I am a maverick player at heart but tried this and its super sweet and have a great match up vs UR delver. i made it to the finals losing to maverick missing a few land drops. the counter top package was kind meh and too slow.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Hey guys.
I personally with no testing and so on, thinks that Fabiano lists looks like a complete mess. 2 dazes seems very odd, i would never play anything less than 4 and on the other hand i would never ever play it without wasteland.
I have tried to include the counterbalance combo in bug like 100 times, and it never really feels great. it feels abit like you are playing a bad miracles deck.
I like the idea of going abit more midrange, but why not play Shardless then ? its still good and u can play 2 cruise/DIG with no problem along side your normal Ancestral vision plan.
Atm im trying to make a deck for a small local event im going to in some days, there will only be really good legacy players and all sorts of deck types, mostly Combo tho, thats why im thinking im playing BUG Delver.
Current list:
4x Delver
4x Deathrite
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Force of will
4x Stifle
4x Daze
4x Decay
3x Cruise
2x Disfigure
4x Underground sea
2x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
4x Wasteland
8x Fetches
My sideboard is mostly Sweepers, 2 golgari charms, 2 toxic deluge, and all the normal stuff.
But im thinking this, how bad is it to play 2 cruise and 1 tombstalker ? have any tried that ? Tombstalker did wonders for me pre cruise, and i miss the big fella. and rigth now there is no removal for him other than Swords.
And what do people think about TNN in this deck ? i played the same list last week apart from the fact that i had 2 TNN instead of the 2 Disfigure and went 5-1, only losing to a mono black i kill all your creatures deck. but some how he just feels so clunky, i think one of the biggest strenght BUG delver and all the other bug decks have is there creature removal, that you can board in, like Golgari charm, toxic deluge, Massacre and so on. But with TNN it can get kinda bad.
Precruise i played the same list for like 8 months with 2 tombstalkers and like 6 sweepers in the board, and it was amazing. i made top 4 nerly every time i played. but i guess its just dead now.
I really liked stifle, people aint ready for it, and you can use the card for alot of things, so for the moment i think its better than any of the normal discard spell we normally run.
Sorry for bad engrish! :D
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Just a bit of a result:
I playtested a bunch of games using the Spell Pierce / Disfigure configuration vs UR Delver last night, and that configuration seems to be really solid vs. the deck, to the point where I feel like we are advantaged. Not only that, but with the subsequent rise of Storm, having access to so many spell pierces translates nicely for that matchup as well.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
exallium
Just a bit of a result:
I playtested a bunch of games using the Spell Pierce / Disfigure configuration vs UR Delver last night, and that configuration seems to be really solid vs. the deck, to the point where I feel like we are advantaged. Not only that, but with the subsequent rise of Storm, having access to so many spell pierces translates nicely for that matchup as well.
This is the case with my testing as well, though I wouldn't say we're heavily advantaged. Definitely not at a disadvantage, though. I'm really torn between TA and Grixis right now. The former is stronger against combo and Miracles, while the latter Cruises better and handles UR better.
EDIT: Oxide, I agree with your suspicion that Tombstalker and 2 Cruise is probably wrong. You can do it, but I'd rather just have 3 Cruise and a TNN or an additional disruptive element. I'm also not a fan of Stifle and Thoughtseize - they really work across purposes, so it's better to pick one or the other and run additional Pierces in those slots. My list is yours, -4 Stifle, +2 Pierce, +1 Dimir Charm, +1 TNN.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=78247
Sultai Delver
John Wiley
14th Place at StarCityGames.com Premier IQ on 1/4/2015
Creatures (14)
2 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
Lands (18)
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
Spells (28)
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
4 Ponder
3 Treasure Cruise
Sideboard
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Arcane Laboratory
3 Disfigure
1 Force of Will
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Spell Pierce
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Maelstrom Pulse
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Unassigned
2 Phyrexian Dreadnought
This feels like an attempt to solve the "Threat light" issue some have with current TA iterations, given we've cut Tombstalker because drawing 3 is better. I'm not sure how I feel about needing to draw 2 / 6 cards in order to be able to stick a dreadnaught, which could subsequently die to abrupt decay or other forms of cheap removal. (Flickerwisp, Swords, Wear // Tear, etc.). It can definitely catch people off guard, but it also enables spell pierce as a counterspell for it, and makes you less likely to use your stifles on other things, like fetches, miracle triggers, and whatever else. Basically, without stifle in hand, it's a dead card, and with stifle in hand, you need to resolve both this and the stifle in order to get it into play.
I will admit that if you manage to get it into play vs UR delver, it's likely lights out.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
exallium
This feels like an attempt to solve the "Threat light" issue some have with current TA iterations, given we've cut Tombstalker because drawing 3 is better. I'm not sure how I feel about needing to draw 2 / 6 cards in order to be able to stick a dreadnaught, which could subsequently die to abrupt decay or other forms of cheap removal. (Flickerwisp, Swords, Wear // Tear, etc.). It can definitely catch people off guard, but it also enables spell pierce as a counterspell for it, and makes you less likely to use your stifles on other things, like fetches, miracle triggers, and whatever else. Basically, without stifle in hand, it's a dead card, and with stifle in hand, you need to resolve both this and the stifle in order to get it into play.
I will admit that if you manage to get it into play vs UR delver, it's likely lights out.
I think it was meant for the UR delver matchup.
then again, stifle is horrendous vs. UR delver. So i don't even know if you want to keep that in after game 1
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
exallium
(Something that criticizes Phyrexian Dreadnought in TA)
I will admit that if you manage to get it into play vs UR delver, it's likely lights out.
Yep. Unless they adopt my Repeal tech. In that case 'Nought looks rather silly. :cool:
I do like your 75 though. The main is my exact 60, and on side we just differ a Rod for an Envelop. :smile:
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Asthereal
Yep. Unless they adopt my
Repeal tech. In that case 'Nought looks rather silly. :cool:
I do like your 75 though. The main is my exact 60, and on side we just differ a Rod for an Envelop. :smile:
Pretty sure I just stole your list and then realized i didn't have a 2nd envelop. ;)
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Toying with the following:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 True Name Nemesis
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Underground Sea
4 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
4 Treasure Cruise
Essentially, I don't believe that Treasure Cruise makes Hymn unplayable. Just because an opposing TC can undo a Hymn does not mean we can't run away with our own TC right after!
Hymn plus TC is insane back to back cardadvantage and because of the low manacurve in the format, I decided to cut the Wastelands for more virtual threats in Form of Tar Pits to aid the TNNs as unblockable attackers and to mess with Miracles. Tar Pits are annoying to handle for your opponent if in topdeck mode no matter the presence of Bolts these days, thanks to Hymn and Liliana. Wasteland is also not that common these days. I sure don't have to mention Lilianas interaction with additional copies of Hymn and TC.
I'm in an early testing stage with this "unblockable attackers" plus Hymn + TC dreamteam approach, so I'm open for critique
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
KobeBryan
I think it was meant for the UR delver matchup.
then again, stifle is horrendous vs. UR delver. So i don't even know if you want to keep that in after game 1
UR Delver is one of the only matchups where I want Stifle over Thoughtseize. I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Toying with the following:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 True Name Nemesis
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Underground Sea
4 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
4 Treasure Cruise
Essentially, I don't believe that Treasure Cruise makes Hymn unplayable. Just because an opposing TC can undo a Hymn does not mean we can't run away with our own TC right after!
Hymn plus TC is insane back to back cardadvantage and because of the low manacurve in the format, I decided to cut the Wastelands for more virtual threats in Form of Tar Pits to aid the TNNs as unblockable attackers and to mess with Miracles. Tar Pits are annoying to handle for your opponent if in topdeck mode no matter the presence of Bolts these days, thanks to Hymn and Liliana. Wasteland is also not that common these days. I sure don't have to mention Lilianas interaction with additional copies of Hymn and TC.
I'm in an early testing stage with this "unblockable attackers" plus Hymn + TC dreamteam approach, so I'm open for critique
I think the unblockable dudes + Hymn + Cruise idea might work, in a more midrange-control type shell. I'm not a fan of 6 three-drops plus 4 CIPT lands (with a three mana activated ability) and Daze in the same deck - it really pulls you in two different directions, even with DRS. This might be a result of you looking at a European metagame rather than a North American one, but your list seems great against Miracles and very rough against other Delver decks.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
btm10
UR Delver is one of the only matchups where I want Stifle over Thoughtseize. I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about here.
I think the unblockable dudes + Hymn + Cruise idea might work, in a more midrange-control type shell. I'm not a fan of 6 three-drops plus 4 CIPT lands (with a three mana activated ability) and Daze in the same deck - it really pulls you in two different directions, even with DRS. This might be a result of you looking at a European metagame rather than a North American one, but your list seems great against Miracles and very rough against other Delver decks.
i don;t run thoughtseize and stifle is lackluster in that matchup. My deck plays like RUG.
so stifle doesn't do anything for me except protect against wastelands (which they don't run) or stifle a fetchland, (which doesn't really hurt their manabase since they only run on 1 land.
and how are you able to fit both thoughtseize and stifle in the deck...it occupies the same slot
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
exallium
Pretty sure I just stole your list and then realized i didn't have a 2nd envelop. ;)
:laugh::laugh::laugh:
When I get me some of those fringe commons, I try to always just get a playset.
You never know when you need more, or maybe even all of them. :wink:
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
KobeBryan
i don;t run thoughtseize and stifle is lackluster in that matchup. My deck plays like RUG.
so stifle doesn't do anything for me except protect against wastelands (which they don't run) or stifle a fetchland, (which doesn't really hurt their manabase since they only run on 1 land.
They can sort of operate on one land, but they're considerably less efficient. It also lets you Daze their cantrips and any threats they try to play. You can also use Stifle to counter Pyromancer and Swiftspear triggers, and that's far from irrelevant.
Quote:
and how are you able to fit both thoughtseize and stifle in the deck...it occupies the same slot
I'm not playing both. I've played both configurations.
