I've been running 11 and I simply can't complain. It seems just fine.
4 Thoughtseize
3 Therapy/Duress
4 Hymn
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I've been running 11 and I simply can't complain. It seems just fine.
4 Thoughtseize
3 Therapy/Duress
4 Hymn
Arsenal - The decklist looks good. I've got some general remarks and some particulars which I think you should try. I know how your deck plays very well, I run something very similar.
General Comments:
Keep your creature count high. If you're going to cut Stromgald Crusader, make sure to replace him with another threat. 16 threats is not enough. Each one is very dynamic and CAN rule a game, but they are also very weak in differing respects. Bob barely counts as a threat because he attacking is secondary to his card draw. Hyppie is easily dealt with, though he dominates any game where he is not quickly dealt with. And Negator is a house, but is hard to push through. Shade is solid all around as a threat. Given that you're running Jitte, you also need a target to equip to. Equipment is better suited for a creature heavy build, where early creature drops can be made more effective with an equip effect. I'm by no means suggesting to cut Jitte, just realize what directions you're pointing yourself to in running it.
The choice to up the amount of discard and run no land destruction is fine. Your not attempting to play the tempo game land destruction offers, instead you're going with a more controlling route. Creature destruction aids the game plan and the amount of it you're running lends to a very controlling game. One interesting option available to you is to rely on heavy discard effects even more. I'll get into that a bit later - as it's more just food for though.
Particular Comments:
If you're looking at cutting Stromgald Crusader then I think you have to replace this slot with another creature. Tombstalker is in my opinion the best option. He is another solid beater with very little drawback. There is no way to determine what effect he will have other than by testing Tombstalker out. Count the number of times Tombstalker loses you the game when in a deck with Confidant. Then count the number of times having Tombstalker over Crusader was worth his inclusion. My experience with a build near identical to yours is that Tombstalker is every bit worth it.
Chrome Mox - Consider the card. Dark Ritual is a house because it enables broken plays. Mox isn't as good, but it's hard to say that it doesn't belong. Turn 1 Discard followed by Turn 2 Hyppie or Negator is near as grand. First turn Confidant un-answered wins games. First turn Hymn is fair also. I find Mox lends itself more to a tempo game which you seem to be straying from through cutting land destruction, but has become an easy staple in my deck.
An Idea to Run With:
When searching for that elusive 17-18 creature slot I tested Oona's Prowler for a bit. In most builds of suicide black it just doesn't belong, but you can tweak a build that relys on heavy discard to make for a pretty good fit. Test the inclusion of 2x Oona's Prowler and 4x The Rack. This ups the threat count to 22x while providing reach through The Rack, something suicide black does not have. Between 12x discard spells, Hyppie and Prowler, your opponent rarely has a hand and Prowler is a 3/1 flier for 2cc. I toyed with this build for a bit but ultimately switched back to something a bit more traditional. You can find a few of my builds some great pages back. I've been considering some alternate approaches given some of the sweet new cards which deserve a little testing. We'll see what my ingenuity can come up with.
Will this type find a home here?
Ashenmoor Gouger BBB
Creature - Elemental Warrior (U)
Ashenmoor Gouger can't block.
4/4
Ashenmoor Ghoul could replace Negator in metas unfriendly to Negator. But only if you play atleast 2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth to help him out.
Do you guys have any thoughts on the below list? It's not monoblack but it's been very effective for me.
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
3 Vindicate
3 Snuff Out
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Nantuko Shade
4 Tombstalker
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Hypnotic Spectar
I was interested in trying out the Servant + Grindstone combo into a sui black shell. Disruptive discard and tutoring goes very well with this combo.
Here is a quick untested thrown together build, it clearly needs to be optimized...
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Ritual
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Thoughtseize
3 Duress/Hymn to Tourach
3 Grindstone
2 Snuff Out
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Tainted Pact/Beseech the Queen
3 Nantuko Shade
4 Painter's Servant
4 Hypnotic Spectar
4 Tombstalker
The plan IS to beat the crap out of your opponent. The combo is the back up plan should that original plan fail.
Or another way to look at it, is this is a combo deck, but with an extremely strong aggro backup to distract your opponent or win through a Stifle/Gaea's Blessing.
The fact is, this deck can support both the combo and aggro routes very well. It has more than enough tools that it can consistently go with either goal in mind.
That kind of flexibility is hard to come by and in my opinion undervalued.
The one thing I will change with the list, is that I will add a singleton Lurebound Scarecrow (or Phyrexian Warbeast or Sarcomancy or Bitterblossom or Engineered Explosives or Jitte) to the list to grab with Enlightened Tutor in a pinch.
This is because Lurebound Scarecrow is a very strong and solid beater in this deck. And it can be tutored up with Enlightened Tutor should the combo route fail you thanks to an Extripate or something. Thus, the E. Tutors never become dead cards.
I didn't want to use the deadguy shell because the deadguy shell is slow, sucky and largely defunct imho.
As nice as Persecute is with a Servant on the board. It can be weak without a Servant since so many decks run upwards of three colors. And it's pretty mana intensive. I just felt Duress/Hymn was generally more disruptive.
It was important to me that the deck retained the traditional brokeness of Suicide Black. The combo is there as a backup plan, but one that you often draw into and resolve while your opponents are busy worrying about your other threats.
I'm not sure what to use as the two of tutor. Beseech is perfect but it costs a lot of mana.
Tainted Pact has the bonus of being cheaper and being an instant.
So at the end of your opponents turn, you can cast Tainted Pact, and try to tutor into either Enlightened Tutor or your second combo piece. Enlightened Tutor is an instant as well so you could cast it immediatley after too, and thus draw the card during the start of your turn. And if you have neither combo piece in hand, Pact at the end of your opponent's turn into a Thoughtseize, or more beats is a solid play as well.
Ive been playing sui black for a while now and this is what came out after a lot of tuning:
3x Umezawa’s Jitte
4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Tombstalker
4x Ashenmoor Gouger
4x Dark Ritual
4x Snuff Out
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
8x Swamp
1x Tomb of Urami
4x Wasteland
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Sinkhole
4x Thoughtseize
Seem's like ended up with the "eva green" shell (funny since I started from a red death shell...) but instead of tarmo there's ashenmoor gourger (OK not as overpowerd as goyf, but he'll manage...) and instead of the seal of primoridum there's jitte (definitly better since we don't play green)
The deck's works allright, and the side is mostly meta dependant,
for example:
4x pithing needle (to much ugly stuff and this baby solves most of them...)
4x extirpate (could become leyline of the void, or withered wretch dependant on the meta)
4x engineerd plague (espescialy usefull against ETW tokens, but can be swapped for more removal (vendetta, diabolic edict, terror...))
3x meta slot (someone I know plays distophia but it's quite risky because of the lifeloss...)
God, ashenmoor gouger is such a piece of crap, please dont play it. A 4/4 body doesnt win games by itself anymore and the fact that it cant block makes it strictly worse then gator. If you really are playing gouger in Sui black then it says alot about the viability of the deck unfortunately.
Except for that whole massive card disadvantage thing. When Phyrexian Negator is blocked by something, you're going to be losing several cards. When Ashenmore Gouger is blocked you may just lose it. If you need to block with Negator, then you're probably going to lose anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by technogeek5000
What I was really trying to get at was that both have no place in the other half of the combat phase. Also having first hand experience with gator, if your not retarded about it gator wins games even through blockers, regardless of its drawback(while still a serious factor nonetheless). Both cards suck, and they suck pretty equally. 4/4 and 5/5 bodies alone dont win games in legacy so unless it has some sort of evasion (tombstalker, pit dragon) then its not gonna win games. Neither cards are good and the only place they see play in is a borderline tier 2 deck.
Not to say that im not very sad to have this deck become weaker. I love this deck and turn 1 dark ritual shenanigans were always a blast. But mono black suiand any splash that doesnt have green just doesnt seem competitive anymore.
Although I don't play this often, I do think some forms of MBA are viable if you metagame the balls out of it. I mean, black does have certain "banes" for a number of top decks. It's just a matter of configuring it all. Just my 1 1/2 cents.Quote:
Originally Posted by technogeek5000
That sounded a bit conceited lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by technogeek5000
Imho, the white splash is perfectly competitive. I agree that it's debatable whether the trade off for Vindicate and a few Swords to supplement Snuff Out as a 3 of, and the far greater ability to completely mana screw your opponents by blowing up lands with Wasteland, Sinkhole then Vindicate is worth it.
But to say that the white splash is just not competitive is just plain false.
I like your list a lot overseer.
It's very close to what I would run if I were forced to play monoblack instead of b/w due to budget reasons.
Here would be my preference...
3 Tombstalker
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Phyrexian Negator/Ashenmoor Gouger
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Snuff Out
2 Reanimate/Duress
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
16 Swamp
I left out the fetchlands because as technogeek aptly pointed out. If you can afford the fetches, there is absolutely no reason not to splash either Green, White, or Red.
Card value is a tricky thing. If you can afford Sinkholes and Thoughtseizes, you can afford fetches. The list as given has a bunch of $10+ cards and a few $20+ cards, so it's hardly a "budget" deck. So: how would you build suicide (mono-)black without Sinkhole?Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Kant
That depends on how much money you want to sink into this deck. The deck still has a few other mid-priced rares in it, but I would go:Quote:
Originally Posted by kirbysdl
Lands (20)
17x Swamp
3x Wasteland
Creatures (20)
4x Sarcomancy
4x Carnophage
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Dark Confidant/Stromgald Crusader/Black Knight
4x Phyrexian Negator
Other Spells (20)
4x Dark Ritual
4x Duress/Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Toughtseize/Cabal Therapy
4x Smother/Snuff Out
Sideboard (15)
4x Leyline of the Void
4x Engineered Plague
7x Meta-determined
This style of Suicide Black is faster, and less powerful in the late game. You can have crazy explosive openings that knock the opponent back. In my opinion, Sinkhole fits the deck well since it is constructed to abuse the tempo gain, but this version works pretty well.
On another note, running Tombstalker in this deck as more than a two-of almost requires the use of fetchlands to make them any good. This deck can't get enough cards from its hand into the gravyard to get down Tombstalker very early. I agree with Clark Kant, at that point, just splash green and make Eva Green - it's a better, faster, more disruptive deck. The biggest thing mono-black has going for it is mana base resiliance, but with the printing of Tarmogoyf, it's worth it to splash for that much of a body.
A lot of older players have the old cards like Sinkholes already as they weren't too pricy back in the day.
For a truly budget sui black list, I would drop Wastelands, Sinkholes completely, probalby run something like this...
3 Tombstalker
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Ashenmoor Gouger
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Wrench Mind - Not sure, never ran the card.
4 Snuff Out
2 Reanimate
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mishra's Factory/Swamp
16 Swamp
Tombstalker, Jitte and Shade can run you around $25 a playset to get, but I think they are worth the investment. If you can't afford them, other options maybe that flip card that turns into a 3/3 + Rack, and Rotting Giant or Flesh Reaver.
Which is the best sideboard answer for Chalice? I'd say Powder Keg, since it can go down for Chalices with Trinisphere on the table and is more versatile (but slower) than Engineered Explosives in this deck.
Has anyone run it? I've seen it suggested, but never seen it played. My SB would look something like this:
3-4 Dystopia
3-4 Powder Keg
4 Planar Void or Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
Hello folks, I was just looking to get some advice on my list as I was using it last night to casually play some people and it was getting beat pretty badly by a couple of things (T2 MBC, T2 W token control thing, Legacy fires of yavimaya). I will admit that I had some pretty crappy hands, and since it was only casual I was keeping things I probably wouldn't under normal circumstances, however I was getting a little annoyed at losing a few games due to things I really couldn't control (especially to the type 2 decks). Ok here is the list as I am running it at the moment:
18 Swamp
4 Sarcomancy
4 Dark Confidant
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Stromgald
1 Carnophage
4 Dark Ritual
3 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smother
3 Diabolic Edict
1 Profane Command
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
The sideboard is unnecessary as I really was not using it, although admittedly it would have made my matchups a lot easier. Additionally, the lone carnophage is there because I haven't gotten a hold of a 4th thoughtseize.
So, the majority of my complaints were centered around one card that I have never had problems with before: sarcomancy. Normally it does really well, and I get around the whole needing a zombie thing by playing Stromgald crusader (as I was delighted to find that he is also a zombie). However, last night, in multiple games, I just kept dying because I couldn't find a zombie and the sarcomancies would ping me every turn. It was rather frustrating. My question is should I write this off as bad luck and leave it, change the slot to Carnophages (same thing but I can control the damage), or change it entirely to duresses?
Another problem I had was with crusader. I am just unsure if he is worth it. I mean there are many times when I have to trade creatures using him when either a black knight or a Order would have been able to simply kill the opposing creature. Yes they can block flyers, such as those oh so dangerous ornithoptors with cranial plating, but its annoying having to trade. Should I keep them, or change them out for Black knights or Orders, or something entirely different?
Finally, I feel like the entire deck is not as fast as I thought it would be. I mean against the fires deck, there were so many times when I had the lead but I would not be able to kill him fast enough, so he would be able to get a saporling burst out and crush me. Is my version of the deck too slow, is it meant to be slower than most aggo decks due to the large disruption package, or should I chalk this one up to the deck being weak against aggro (which I know it is)?
Thanks for any and all advice!
Sword of Fire and Ice is 1 mana slower than Jitte and won't recover you from life loss from Thoughtseize and Sarcomany. Also, it's not nearly as efficient as Jitte when doubling as removal.
You run seven creature removal spells maindeck. That's a holy damn lot of slots dedicated for that. I only run 3 Smothers and, for me, that has been enough.
Profane Command? Isn't that slow as hell? Usually, you want to disrupt your opponent's hand of things that won't not let you win the game on the first turns and then win right away.
Hippie might be good, but he sucks balls against aggro. I'd rather have Crusader for that match up since he costs less and carries Jitte just like Hippie would. He dodges STP, by the way, which tends to be useful against random aggro. Still, not like having 4 Hippies is bad, since Crusader sucks too much mana for only a few more damage.
I suggest:
-1 SoFI
-1 Command
-1 Carnophage
-1 Smother
-3 Diabolic Edict
-2 Swamp
+1 Thoughtseize
+1 Jitte
+3 Cabal Therapy/Duress
+4 Wasteland
why would anyone wanna play a suicide black list without dark confidant? can anyone tell me? there's absolutely NO REASON to cut the card!! seriously!! it's by far the most powerful card in the deck, more than sinkhole, more than tombstalker, more than wasteland, and yes, more than TARMOGOYF. nobody can sway my opinion otherwise. Bob gets so much hate that u can usually get there with just a tarmogoyf or nantuko shade or something like that. and if they don't get rid of bob, he's going to kill your opponent with all the amazing card advantage he gives you... as a 2 drop.... he's fucking incredable
The only lists around here Dark Confidants are supposed to be budget lists or something. Anyway, some people like the explosiveness of Tomstalker. Also, the shift key says hello.