[OLD] UGw Threshold

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Originally Posted by Brushwagg

The key to winning the match is keep vial off the board

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I agree with this. Not allowing Vial to get up to 3 (Warchief, Matron) is key. If Vial hits 4, you've typically lost.

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stick Counterbalance

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I don't agree with this, I typically side Counterbalane out against Goblins, the cards I want them resolving least are Ringleader and Gang-Banger. You really don't have enough cards at 4 and 5 to keep this up. Typically you bring in Hydroblast/Blue Elemental Blast against them, and after that, any additional creatures (Gaddock Teeg's job is to trade with Piledriver/Warchief, Meddling Mage's job, if anyone still runs them, is to trade with Warchief).

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and ride Tarmogoyf for the W.

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By Tarmogoyf, you mean multiple Goyfs, right? :wink:


Essentially, the only way for you to gain Card Advantage in this match up (allowing you to be the control role) is to force them to chump block, or gang block into Swords/BEB that saves your guy (if it's Goyf, they'd better be tapped out, or Incinerator probably wrecks you), while keeping them from resolving Ringleader and Gang-Banger (easier to do with Force, Daze, and BEB than Counterbalance), and you hit the nail on the head, that none of that is possible without ensuring Vial doesn't stick around (you can afford to take a couple of hits from Driver/Matron/Warchief while you counter stuff until you land blockers if they don't show up early). Winning this way happens more often, I've found.

The only other way to win is to land multiple Goyfs by turn 3/4, while they haven't drawn Lackey or Vial (which isn't extremely likely). This immediately allows you to beat face, forcing them to try and play the control role, which they can't really do without resolving an unanswered Vial as they need a stream of chump blockers. Winning this way is easier (see the episode of the Magic episode where Evan Erwin explains Tarmogoyf Math -> Goyf + Goyf + Goyf = You Win!).

I wanted to give Clique a try since I first saw it but I thought about running it in UGr since it seems more like a tempo card. In UGw I usually want something that either has long term staying power like Hoofprints or can deal with nearly any threat when it comes down like Enforcer.
But the merits of having a good cmc 3 slot and being capable to deal with your opponents Life from the Loam maindeck is quite good so I guess I really will test it but in UGr or UGrw first.

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Originally Posted by Gman

-Another cool trick can mess up their Counterbalance. You play spell, they top in response, you play Clique in response to the Counterbalance trigger, they have a new card on top. Maybe now your spell will resolve?

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So, you are playing Spell (n) and Vendilion Clique (n+3 Mana) to force through... a Goyf or something like that. That would make at least 4 mana, for which we can simply have Enforcer to beat the opponent down within 2-3 turns.

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-More quickly breaks stalemates. If your creatures are sitting there staring at your opponent's, a Clique is quicker to break that stalemate. With Enforcer, usually you have to get to 4 mana, and then have a few resources to protect it like counter magic or extra mana for Top or whatever.

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Early stalemates are solved with Swords to Plowshares. And in the mid- or lategame, you have Enforcer. Even though you tap out fpr him, you don't need any additional mana since your countermagic is 4free and you can simply exchange Top with the top-card for StoP-resistancy (When CBalance is out obv.).

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-Better versus combo. Yep.

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C...Counterbalance? Daze? Force? Clock? SB Meddling Mage? Clique = winmore/overkill Oo

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-Combat tricks. It can jump in the way of opposing Mongeese, etc.

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Well, in the mirrormatch, Mongeese always trade with each other I guess. And Enforcer and Hoofprints are still more dangerous in the mirrormatch.

But against other decks it might be true.

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-Goblins? I think the Clique might be weak versus goblins due to Fanatic but then again it could potentially stave off a Warrens Weirding or something returned to by Wort; not to mention a freshly tutored Ringleader.

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But Clique has to be kept back in your hand to do such broken things while your opponent is simply going to bash your head in. As you said, it also dies to Mogg Fanatic very easily, as well as to a Gempalm Incinerator. It also can't block Piledrivers because of it's color.

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-Counterbalance curve. I really don't like O-ring in this deck. This may be the problem solver for the 3 drop spot in the curve.

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I like Oblivion Ring better, but there are no other CC3 spells that make sense to me to play in the maindeck. Except MAYBE Threads or Shackles, but they act as removal, and therefore O-Ring is still better. Goyfs are growing too fast for Shackles right now and Threads are too situational IMO.

Oblivion Ring is still the most versatile card, it raises the amount of removal in the maindeck and offers you a solid maindeck-out against extreme gayness like Humility

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-Obligitory reference to being pitchable to FoW. Actually this is relevent, because you can't always shuffle away an unneeded Enforcer and it is literally a dead card.

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When is a 4 mana 6/6 Flyer with Pro: Black ever dead...?

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White Threshold is traditional the more controlling build so I think the Clique has a useful and appropriate role here. Try it out and let me know what you think.

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Controlish UGW build without the excellent finishers White has to offer...? Not!

One of these days when I have free time, I'm going to build a shrine to Adan.

I agree with all his points here. I also have to say that if I was going to include some other maindeck CMC3 creature it would likely be Trygon Predator. He's got a useful ability, has evasion, and a 3 defense. Those three things seem better more often than the things that V. Clique can do for you.

On a different note, would it kill the mana base to play two R dual lands (1 Tropical Island/1 Taiga) to play 3 red elemental blast in the sideboard?

Or even trying two B dual lands to play Extirpate/Thoughtsieze in the sideboard?

After playing a few more games over the past few days, I've realized that I don't want to chagne the makeup of GUw all that much, but having a couple of extra sideboard options might be nice.

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Originally Posted by PowrDragn

On a different note, would it kill the mana base to play two R dual lands (1 Tropical Island/1 Taiga) to play 3 red elemental blast in the sideboard?
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Depending on the Meta, but if I were to do that seems that Pyroclasm would be a good fit to handle Goblins, Elves and other similar aggro.

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Originally Posted by Adan

So, you are playing Spell (n) and Vendilion Clique (n+3 Mana) to force through... a Goyf or something like that. That would make at least 4 mana, for which we can simply have Enforcer to beat the opponent down within 2-3 turns.

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Don't leave "n" out. There may be situations where n = Goyf is much better than an Enforcer granted you have one mana more. For example if the opponent had an important card to snatch or finds a removal to deal with Enforcer. In this case two creatures are better than one. I don't say that it will happen more often but without this point of view your argument is not complete.

Also Repeal+Clique deals with every nonland permanent. The opponent will "loose" the permanent while you replace Repeal and also have a creature out.

Also I'm sure you know that Enforcer is not always a Flying 6/6 with pro black but only most of the time. Against certain decks its also hard to play because of their mana denial/color screwing. Said decks often feature Life from the Loam which, I say again, can be snatched by clique to buy necessary time to go aggro or set up Balance.

The one point I agree is that it doesn't fit UGw that well. UGR is the better build for it.

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Originally Posted by kabal

Depending on the Meta, but if I were to do that seems that Pyroclasm would be a good fit to handle Goblins, Elves and other similar aggro.

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I agree on that. And on that same note, if I added black, I'd just as well add Thoughtseize to the main deck.

I'm just wondering if it makes strategic sense to much up for manabase a little bit for the addition of 0-4 card main deck and probably 3-6 cards in the sideboard.

I have been playing UGwb thresh for the past few weeks and have been doing reasonable well with it. I really suggest the Thoughtseize MD. It gives you more outs against the goblin match, and also acts as a counterspell against more controllish decks.

Extirpate in the board is also very useful. It can help deal with Wasteland because we are playing 4 colors, and is also good for some of our worse matchups like Loam and Ichorid.

As much as I like having black in the deck, I just came up feeling defeated. It looks like our burgeoning meta is going to have a solid bit of aggro (mostly bad decks). A couple of the good players are playing Stax, Enchantress, Dragon Stompy, and some mono-blue combo (storm?).

So, I decided on the following build:

4 Tarmogofy
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Mystic Enforcer
2 Trygon Predator

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
3 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Daze

1 Hoofprints of the Stag
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance

1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Island
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand

Sideboard:
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Control Magic
3 Hydroblast
3 Krosan Grip
2 Vedalken Shackles
3 Tormod's Crypt

This build holds up well against stax. The basics keep me from getting wasteland locked and the stifles have helped a little as well.

I honestly would like to understand the uses for Engineered Explosives better int his format, because I feel that they belong on this list, but so far it's been subpar for me, so I took them out entirely.

I also wouldn't mind having 3x Wasteland on the list either. Maybe removing -1 Predator, -1 Land, and -1 Daze/Ponder. I'm just not sure at this point though. I guess I could just as well remove two land and ponder for 3 Wasteland, but I'll just tinker around with it to see what happens.

For some reason, the sideboard feels a little weak still. I don't have much against the storm combo deck. I just bring in Gaddock Teeg and hope to beat him down and hide behind a well timed Daze. Gaddock does stop a few cards from getting played. I wish I had something more useful against.

Right now, I'm siding in 3 Crypt and 2 Control Magic against the other local Thresh deck. If he was playing black Thresh I might actually adjust that and bring in Shackles also. It would allow me to take control of Confidant. Just a thought.

I feel overall that the black version should be stronger, but I decided to focus on the best version of UGw that I could.

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Originally Posted by PowrDragn

As much as I like having black in the deck, I just came up feeling defeated. It looks like our burgeoning meta is going to have a solid bit of aggro (mostly bad decks). A couple of the good players are playing Stax, Enchantress, Dragon Stompy, and some mono-blue combo (storm?).

So, I decided on the following build:

4 Tarmogofy
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Mystic Enforcer
2 Trygon Predator

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
3 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Daze

1 Hoofprints of the Stag
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance

1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Island
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand

Sideboard:
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Control Magic
3 Hydroblast
3 Krosan Grip
2 Vedalken Shackles
3 Tormod's Crypt

This build holds up well against stax. The basics keep me from getting wasteland locked and the stifles have helped a little as well.

I honestly would like to understand the uses for Engineered Explosives better int his format, because I feel that they belong on this list, but so far it's been subpar for me, so I took them out entirely.

I also wouldn't mind having 3x Wasteland on the list either. Maybe removing -1 Predator, -1 Land, and -1 Daze/Ponder. I'm just not sure at this point though. I guess I could just as well remove two land and ponder for 3 Wasteland, but I'll just tinker around with it to see what happens.

For some reason, the sideboard feels a little weak still. I don't have much against the storm combo deck. I just bring in Gaddock Teeg and hope to beat him down and hide behind a well timed Daze. Gaddock does stop a few cards from getting played. I wish I had something more useful against.

Right now, I'm siding in 3 Crypt and 2 Control Magic against the other local Thresh deck. If he was playing black Thresh I might actually adjust that and bring in Shackles also. It would allow me to take control of Confidant. Just a thought.

I feel overall that the black version should be stronger, but I decided to focus on the best version of UGw that I could.

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Hey DeQuan,

We played a few weeks ago at CBC during their weekly tournament (epic mirror match!!!!!) I really like your build. I was just gonna throw out some extra sideboard options--
1) I think another Teeg would be really good. I've been running 3, and I really think it's the right number-- it's a beating vs Stax, Belcher, and random jank. It's passable vs Dragonstompy (stops Chalice..)

2) Sacred Ground-- wow, that card is the nuts vs Stax. If they didn't put Disenchant in, it's pretty much GG. It's also effective vs 43lands and random Wasteland recursion.

3) I know it wasn't as impressive as it should have been against you (since you had the most "clutch" Daze evar lol..) but, Disrupt is really really good. It hits against most decks, and in conjunction with Daze and Stifle can really get you ahead in the early game.

Just some thoughts that I hope work for you.

Yeah, that Daze was pretty hot. But it was also your Control Magic that opened my eyes a bit and won that game for you :)

I wouldn't mind another Teeg. And Sacred Ground is a neat option. The downside though is that I'm not sure what I remove from the board to play the other cards.

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Originally Posted by PowrDragn

Yeah, that Daze was pretty hot. But it was also your Control Magic that opened my eyes a bit and won that game for you :)

I wouldn't mind another Teeg. And Sacred Ground is a neat option. The downside though is that I'm not sure what I remove from the board to play the other cards.

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Yeah, Control Magic has been really really clutch for me the last few months.


I'm kinda iffy on Tormod's Crypt-- I'm guessing it's in there vs Dredge-- but I'd almost rather have Teeg vs Dredge-- stops Breakthrough and Dread Return

Plus, is 3 hate cards really enough to stop that deck?

I also think Serenity should be in your board if Enchantress is seeing play

I've got Teeg and Crypt. Dredge and Ichorid can be tough matchups, so I figured those cards will help.

That being said, there isn't a ton of that being played here. But I think a couple of guys that play extended Dredge decks are thinking about playing it in Legacy, so I might as well be prepared.

PowrDragon:

Your build is quite solid, but I wouldn't play Trygons MD and also the Stifles are mediocre. Needles would entirely prevent you from being Waste-locked and it's also cool against Survival, Goblins, Landstill and whatsoever...

I'd try something like this if I were you:

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [A] Tropical Island
2 [B] Tundra
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [A] Island (1)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [A] Plains (2)
1 [A] Forest (1)

// Creatures
2 [OD] Mystic Enforcer
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [OD] Predict
4 [LRW] Ponder
3 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [10E] Pithing Needle
2 [LRW] Oblivion Ring

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [DIS] Trygon Predator
SB: 2 [CS] Jotun Grunt

The sideboard is quite blah, I don't know whether I would play Jotun grunts, they are versatile against Dredge and mirror I think.
Gaddock Teeg are there to support the Landstill matchup, not the Dredge matchup.

Dredge will board out Dread Return, Flame-Kin and Sage anyway to pack in Bounce and/or Leylines because you usually can't kill them before Turn 4.
And having Teeg to prevent them from casting Breakthrough or Analysis (some Dredge-builds don't even run them anymore) is bad.

Oblivion Rings are pretty cool I guess. They are also useful against the Chalice-Aggros, Stax and so on.

Thanks for the recommendations Adan.

The main reason I had the Predators main was due to knowing I was going to run into Stax, Enchantress, and Dragon Stompy. All of those deck are artifact/enchantment heavy and he helps immensely. I also feel a little safer with that extra creature to draw to sometimes.

I'm with you on the Stifle. I'd likely only include them in a future build, if I were to add in Wastelands as well. In tandem they seem to be pretty strong, but I can agree that Stifle here, alone, is less than stellar.

I've never been a huge fan of predict, even though I do see its purpose. I guess I could give them a shot.



When fighting against storm-based combo decks (or spell heavy [non-permenant heavy]) combo decks, what is our best plan of attack?

I assume we can try to fight the counter war, but it seem slike they are going to have just as many (if not more than we have).

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Originally Posted by PowrDragn

When fighting against storm-based combo decks (or spell heavy [non-permenant heavy]) combo decks, what is our best plan of attack?

I assume we can try to fight the counter war, but it seem slike they are going to have just as many (if not more than we have).

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CounterTop.

Storm combo decks rely massively on 0 to 2 cc cards, from accel (LED, Petals, Moxen, Rituals...) to filtering (BS, Ponder) to tutoring (IT, BW) to protection (Orim's Chant). There are maybe 6 cards total in a TES deck above that (like 1x Diminishing Returns, 1x Tendrils, 1x EtW, 1x IGG, 2x Infernal Contract).

If you manage to drop the CounterTop engine, you have almost won.

Now that changes if they drop a Vexing Shusher, because uncountered Orim's Chant = you lost. So, ALWAYS keep a relevant cc card on top of your library by default (that is, unless you're countering something else), because even if they got an uncountered OC, the CB trigger well... will still trigger. I'd say maybe keep a land to shut down all their mana sources (LED, Petals, Moxen, except ritual), or a 2cc card to shut down all their tutoring.

The lesson is :
0) Don't be afraid to mull aggressively to get some protection in your starting hand (FoW) and/or some part of the CT engine.
1) Hold the fort till you get CT online.
2) Always keep one mana open for top activation during their turn.
3) Put them on a clock as fast as you can.

Those are all pretty good points PL.

I still stand by the fact that in our local meta maindeck Trygon Predator works out. Even though I'm am well aware it doesn't work in most builds and/or metas.

Are there any matchups where we might want more counters?

Also, is there a superior strategy for the mirror?

I've recently been trying out Tarmotog as it plays out quite similar to T reshold. I actually didn't like the Deed + low cc creatures plan and Tog himself was quite underwhelming, too. But the engine of the deck worked very well and so I tried to port it into an UGW T reshold.

4 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Cephalid Coliseum

4 Nimble mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Genesis
1 Wonder

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Intuition
4 Daze
4 Force of will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Senseis Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
1 Life from the Loam

Until now I've done some testing and especially Wonder has been extremely strong in Matchups like Goblins and Aggro Loam. Genesis and Loam/Coliseum generate massive amounts of Cardadvantage which is especially important in control matchups.

What do you guys think of this build and the idea in general?

Is 1 life from the loam enough?

Yes, you can fetch it with Intuition. But for that, you need to reach 3 mana.

I would cut 2 polluted to do +1 island, +1 tropical

I think that +1 eternal witness will be good too.

if you have room, +1 wasteland +1 academy ruins + 1 engineered explosives can be useful


just some ideas

Robert

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Originally Posted by PowrDragn

I still stand by the fact that in our local meta maindeck Trygon Predator works out. Even though I'm am well aware it doesn't work in most builds and/or metas.

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I run a 4c build with 2 Trygon Predators MB, and I must say I love them. They improve Countertop, they obliterate Stax...Sometimes they act as FoW-fodder, but never I was like "Gawd, if only I didn't draw this Predator, but a...".

My deck is still developing, I'm also running 2x Mystic Enforcer, which has proven alot less useful than Predator.