[DTB] Vial Goblins

true we did have this descussion however it is vital. i would love for one person to go to any shop around me and try and win with wierding. seriously it is good as it self BUT they have to many answers... and if i was to walk into a daze well then i shouldnt play wierding then should i because when i go turn one lackey then they go turn one goose and i attempt a wierding next turn to try and connect with him i am walking into a DAZE?? come on that is dumb you are contradicting yourself. and for that matter if they waste thier force on lackey then i wierding what??.......... the invisible creature sitting in front of me while they draw cards and i say.....must be nice.

Posting standards are higher in the DTB forum than elsewhere on the site. In the future, use proper grammar, spelling, sentence structure, etc. or suffer the Wrath of Mod. Grazi. - Bardo

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Originally Posted by EternalDragon09

true we did have this descussion however it is vital. i would love for one person to go to any shop around me and try and win with wierding. seriously it is good as it self BUT they have to many answers... and if i was to walk into a daze well then i shouldnt play wierding then should i because when i go turn one lackey then they go turn one goose and i attempt a wierding next turn to try and connect with him i am walking into a DAZE?? come on that is dumb you are contradicting yourself. and for that matter if they waste thier force on lackey then i wierding what??.......... the invisible creature sitting in front of me while they draw cards and i say.....must be nice.

Posting standards are higher in the DTB forum than elsewhere on the site. In the future, use proper grammar, spelling, sentence structure, etc. or suffer the Wrath of Mod. Grazi. - Bardo

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You clearly wierding the goyf they play 2 turns later. You know you don't have to cast the card turn 2.

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and if i was to walk into a daze well then i shouldnt play wierding then should i because when i go turn one lackey then they go turn one goose and i attempt a wierding next turn to try and connect with him i am walking into a DAZE?? come on that is dumb you are contradicting yourself

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It is a matter of weighing the risks vs. rewards. If getting the turn 2 SGC means I might get my 1 for 1d then so be it.

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and for that matter if they waste thier force on lackey then i wierding what??

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So if the opponent has no targets you just go Tarfire to the dome on turn 2?

A couple other things wrong with that statement:
1) Countering Lackey with a FoW is not a waste of a FoW.
2) They might still play the Mongoose
3) You have other things to do with that mana

Countering a turn 1 Lackey or Vial is no waste of a FoW. In a case of you having Lackey down and a Weirding when they have a Goose down, Weirding resolving means you hit with Lackey(unless it gets STP'd, burned, Demised/Smothered, etc). Not resolving it means they used a counter of some form and you can still swing with the Lackey to prevent that 1/1 from becoming a 3/3 later. They have a lot of answers, but we have tons of threats as well.

Tarfire is janky. It doesn't stop Goose. It doesn't stop Goyf unless they're retarded. The only way it's better is if they have no creatures in which you have a clear board for both Lackey and your other little green men.

If they counter Lackey, they can still play Goose. Or they can not. You don't need to unload your hand. That's not how you play Goblins. That's how you lose with Goblins. Overcommiting will cause losses if they happen to use any sort of mass removal. And if it's turn 2 with no creature on their field, you now have a chance to NOT get Weirding Dazed. That makes Force and Snare the only counters to worry about. Not everyone plays Snare. Not everyone plays 4. I suppose CB could counter it, but most of your goblins are out of CB range and Gempalm recurring still beats their scariest creature(Goyf)

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Originally Posted by chokin

Tarfire is janky. It doesn't stop Goose. It doesn't stop Goyf unless they're retarded.

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If I'm not mistaken, it just plain can't stop goyf whatsoever, since it's a tribal instant and as such the goyf would be at least 2/3 when state based effects are checked.

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Originally Posted by Elficidium

If I'm not mistaken, it just plain can't stop goyf whatsoever, since it's a tribal instant and as such the goyf would be at least 2/3 when state based effects are checked.

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This is nitpicky, but there could already be an instant in the graveyard, and you could use combat damage on top of the spell.

Maybe if you used 2 Tarfires :P. But within 2-3 turns, I'd say there is bound to be a land and maybe a creature or sorcery in the GY potentially making Goyf at least a 2/3 before SBE. Originally when I was thinking that Tarfire doesn't stop Goyf unless they're retarded, I was thinking of them blocking a creature and using Tarfire to finish it like Troopa mentions, but seriously, Gempalm is miles better than Tarfire(and I think that Gempalm and Weirding are both great in different situations).

Against Thresh, Tarfire doesn't help Lackey hit. It's better than Gempalm when you don't have 1R and at least 2 goblins in play, but neither stop Goose.

On a side note, what's the best number of Ports to run? I see lists going 0, 2, 3 and 4. I don't know what's best. Any advice? And is running 1 Wort the way to go now?

I don't think there is a "correct" number of ports to run. Some people run a complete non-basic manabase with a full set of wastes (which IS correct) and 3-4 ports. Personally I run 2 ports, with a full set of red fetches, and 3 basics.

It's personal preference really.

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Originally Posted by Jujuhawk

I don't think there is a "correct" number of ports to run. Some people run a complete non-basic manabase with a full set of wastes (which IS correct) and 3-4 ports. Personally I run 2 ports, with a full set of red fetches, and 3 basics.

It's personal preference really.

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I ended up running a manabase that looked like:

4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Badlands
2 Taiga
3 Rishadan Port
4 Mountain
1 Swamp

I've always run 4 Wasteland and liked it. I only ran into color issues once tonight having 1 Mountain, 3 Wastelands and 1 Port for like 10 turns. I stayed alive by resolving Matron/Ringleader and chumping until I got another Mountain. I dropped my hand in a couple turns after that and won.

I want to run another Badlands(I don't own #3 yet). I want to maybe drop the singleton Swamp. I might drop green, but love Grip too much. My only nightmare matchups so far are Goyf Sligh and Thresh. I consider Goyf Sligh close to unwinnable like 40/60 preboard 25/75 post(Pyroclasm = :( ) Thresh is tough preboard (50/50) due to bad pilot/build and 60/40 postboard(Grip, Leyline, and Shusher soon).

Any ideas to boost some performance in the Sligh area? I die.

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Originally Posted by chokin

My only nightmare matchups so far are Goyf Sligh and Thresh. I consider Goyf Sligh close to unwinnable like 40/60 preboard 25/75 post(Pyroclasm = :( ) Thresh is tough preboard (50/50) due to bad pilot/build and 60/40 postboard(Grip, Leyline, and Shusher soon).

Any ideas to boost some performance in the Sligh area? I die.

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I do consider Goyf and Red Burn to be very bad matchups for goblins. I have won those matchups before, but you have to get extremely lucky. Since I have 4 chalice and 3 therapy in my board, these are 2 matchups where I bring them in against since all there spells cost either 1 or 2 mana to cast.

I believe Red Threshold is the hardest version to beat, but game 1 is 50/50 with games 2 & 3 to be about 40/60. If I see white threshold its not that hard to beat, I would give it a 60/40 overall match ratio for goblins.

The threshold matchup is very dependent on the pilot of the deck because there are so many critical decisions that must be made against you.

Current Board:

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Krosan Grip
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Engineered Explosives

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Originally Posted by nickrit2000

I do consider Goyf and Red Burn to be very bad matchups for goblins. I have won those matchups before, but you have to get extremely lucky. Since I have 4 chalice and 3 therapy in my board, these are 2 matchups where I bring them in against since all there spells cost either 1 or 2 mana to cast.

I believe Red Threshold is the hardest version to beat, but game 1 is 50/50 with games 2 & 3 to be about 40/60. If I see white threshold its not that hard to beat, I would give it a 60/40 overall match ratio for goblins.

The threshold matchup is very dependent on the pilot of the deck because there are so many critical decisions that must be made against you.

Current Board:

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Krosan Grip
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Engineered Explosives

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Chalice would greatly improve the Burn/Sligh matchup. Didn't think about it. Thanks :) It's still a nightmare match though.

Even when that Thresh player boards in Clasms and REB/Pyroblasts, he is an idiot and puts Chill in there too. I easily beat him because I never overload my side of the board and his Geese die to Clasm too since I run Leyline. Goyf is usually a 3/4 or 4/5, so 3 Gobs, a Gempalm and that Clasm damage kill the Goyf. I don't think I've lost a match to him, just random games, and if there's a Fanatic, it gets even better. I definitely am a better Magic player than this Threshnub. Even with his board having about 9 cards geared to beating me, he loses. I just stick in Leylines and Grips(soon to add a Shusher).

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Originally Posted by TeenieBopper

Mad Auntie is a fucking god awful answer to Engineered Plague/Pyroclasm. One Engineered Plague doesn't really bother me. It's easy enough to play through. Engineered Plague number two, however, basically causes you to scoop it up. Guess what? Mad Auntie does shit against multiple Plagues, and still dies to Pyroclasm.

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After reading this post, I remembered why Mad Auntie wasn't in my deck to begin with. I had already considered all of this when Lorwyn was being previewed, and decided against it. It's good though, because I already have some trouble fitting everything into my sideboard. I think that Krosan Grip is the answer to plague. Not completely perfect, but definately the best. It occasionally works on deed, and it is uncounterable. Enough said.

As far as preemptive proteciton goes, it rarely matters. 90% of the time, I couldn't care less if all my 1/1's die when plague hits. And 50% of the time, it comes in off a dark ritual on turn 1 because I'm playing against a janky deck that I'll beat anyways. I don't see eplague as a huge threat anymore considering that black thresh/landstill has enough problems against goblins already. Any other black deck that bothers to use eplague couldn't be on the same tier as goblins anyway.

I know that all of these cards have been mulled over and discussed many times, but I'll put my opinions up as I work with my deck in case it helps anyone else. As for my decklist, I didn't want to give everything away at once. I think I said that I was planning to get rid of either kiki or wort, though, and I've decided that I really dont need kiki at all. I think I explained this a bit more in my last post or something.

My current list is looking great with 3x Siege-Gang Commander, 4x Warren Weirding. Problem is that I really want to experiment with Earwig Squad. I like the arguments for it. It seems devastating against combo (although it would require a semi god-hand to be fast enough). Realistically, it seems strong against thresh/landstill. Anyway, there simply isn't enough room to fit it in without removing gempalm incinerators. I think that I'll end up cutting the Earwigs because of the dissynergy with lackey/vial, but it's a real shame considering the power of the card.

As for the sideboard, I really like leyline. I think leyline should be in every sideboard. It buys you time against every combo deck. It gives you a huge head-start against thresh. It also works great against various Life from the Loam decks. All three of these decks are potentially troublesome for goblins.

I used to use Chalice of the Void, but I don't really like it that much anymore. It's just not a powerful enough hoser. Against combo, leyline just seems better since it still shuts them down but doesn't eat up all my mana for a turn. Against thresh, it's alright, but I don't consider thresh to be the largest threat, and I think that there are most versatile cards that could go in that slot.

I like engineered explosives a lot, but I havn't really been able to use them very effectively. On paper, it works great against thresh, although they will rarely let you get a 2 for 1. At the end of the day I'll put it in my board because it also foils stax and empty the warrens. This is all based on the assumption of a black and green splash.

I already talked about Kgrip and for now I'll be testing it along with the explosives even through they fill a similar role.

I think I might move Earwig Squad to the other slot and bring it in against combo in place of the weirdings. Currently I'm using Cabal Therapy, which is also against combo. I havn't been able to test it much as combo is dying down in my area.

What is the standard Rbg Goblins build looking like nowadays? What slots are still mandatory (Vial, Lackey for the obvious cards) and what seems to be shifting around (# of removal cards, ports, ect)?

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Originally Posted by raharu

What is the standard Rbg Goblins build looking like nowadays? What slots are still mandatory (Vial, Lackey for the obvious cards) and what seems to be shifting around (# of removal cards, ports, ect)?

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Warren Wierding and Gempalm ratio tends to shift around a little bit. I run a 3/2 split for those guys. Matron targets obviously tend to float around. Some people run sharpshooter, pyromancer, etc. It's really just personal preference. Also, number of siege gang slots is moving around, but I personally believe they shouldn't be. I would run 4 if I could get a way with it, but I'm sticking with 3.

The mana base is also fluctuating slightly. Some people run an entirely nonbasic mana base. While this gives you more stability, you also just lose to a wastelock put on by loam, stax, or whatever deck that plays cvrucible or loam. Also, the number of ports changes from decklist to decklist. Personally for my mana disruption package I play 2 ports and 4 wastes, but some people run no ports, or even 3 or 4 of them. Again, just personal preference.

@Malchar - Leyline rocks, but it doesn't help against EVERY combo deck. Belcher has no reliance on the yard :P Regardless, it's a strong card that I have been running over Crypt. I like it when the retard Thresh player smiles at his hand and quickly says "Keep" and I drop 1-2 Leylines and that smile goes into an instant frown. Nothing makes me happier. Pay extra mana for EE if you don't want it to be hit by CB or Spell Snare. Chalice looks pretty good for some matches. I think Leyline and Grip is plenty for Thresh/Landstill, Chalice is good against Thresh too, but I dunno if I'd use it there. Chalice is also rockin against storm combo(0 for LED, Petal, Mox; 1 hits Dark Ritual, Rite of Flame, Brainstorm, Ponder) and burn.

@raharu - I think that my current list is pretty close to "standard". Nothing too out of the ordinary.
4 AEther Vial
3 Warren Weirding

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver (sometimes -1 for +1 Wort)
4 Fanatic
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron
2 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Wort
3 SGC

4 Wasteland
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Rishadan Port (right now -1 for +1 Mire)
4 Mountain
3 Badlands
1 Taiga
1 Swamp/Taiga/Mountain/Forest/yougettheideaoftheopenlandslot

SB
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Grip
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Sharpshooter(EtW FTL)
2 Hooligan
2 Open slots for the meta

Sharpshooter is almost always an open slot, but when Belcher is around, I keep 1-2 in there. I used to love Hooligan in the MD and ran them both up in the maindeck, but they've been so underwhelming. There was ONE match in which I wanted it(Scepter with Lightning Helix is annoying), but when I put him in, I ended up playing him with the G for lawls killing a Bonesplitter and swung for win. The Hooligan was really unneeded there. Is it better to have it, not need it, then side it out? Or is it better to have a maindeck with fewer "dead" cards?

That's my exact list except for in the manabase:

- 2 Port
+ 2 red fetches.

and the last open slot for land is a taiga. I also cut a mountain for a MD hooligan which I may end up cutting for a land.

This might be a weird question but... I'm going to ask it any ways :wink:

Imagine Vial Goblins wouldn't need Ports and Wastelands. How would the mana base looks like? How many lands would you still play and with what other cards would you replace the lost lands?

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Originally Posted by Avatara

This might be a weird question but... I'm going to ask it any ways :wink:

Imagine Vial Goblins wouldn't need Ports and Wastelands. How would the mana base looks like? How many lands would you still play and with what other cards would you replace the lost lands?

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Assuming that you're in a meta filled entirely with basic lands, I could see dropping Wastelands. Otherwise, don't do it. Even in such a meta, I would still probably keep Ports; the mana denial is very strong. Regardless, if you're planning on cutting Wastes and Ports entirely, I'd suggest something like this for R/b/g:

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Badlands
3 Taiga
6 Mountain
1 Swamp

You'd definitely want 22 lands, and probably 8 fetches. Depending what cards you're running maindeck (Wort, Weirding, Hooligan?) and sideboard (Therapy, Grip?), and whether Wastelands are present, you can decide whether you need the off color basic. I personally like it, but it could just as easily be another Mountain.

Alternately, you could try adding Ancient Tombs to the manabase (-2 Mountain, -1 Swamp maybe). I think Eldariel had experimented with that in the past, and I messed around with it for a bit. It speeds the deck up a bit (dropping turn 2 Matron, turn 3 Ringleader is pretty sweet, as is a turn 4 SGC), but weakens your matchup against aggressive decks and the mirror. If you're not running any Wastes or Ports, Tomb might be a good option to consider.

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Originally Posted by b4r0n

Assuming that you're in a meta filled entirely with basic lands, I could see dropping Wastelands. Otherwise, don't do it. Even in such a meta, I would still probably keep Ports; the mana denial is very strong. Regardless, if you're planning on cutting Wastes and Ports entirely, I'd suggest something like this for R/b/g:

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Badlands
3 Taiga
6 Mountain
1 Swamp

You'd definitely want 22 lands, and probably 8 fetches. Depending what cards you're running maindeck (Wort, Weirding, Hooligan?) and sideboard (Therapy, Grip?), and whether Wastelands are present, you can decide whether you need the off color basic. I personally like it, but it could just as easily be another Mountain.

Alternately, you could try adding Ancient Tombs to the manabase (-2 Mountain, -1 Swamp maybe). I think Eldariel had experimented with that in the past, and I messed around with it for a bit. It speeds the deck up a bit (dropping turn 2 Matron, turn 3 Ringleader is pretty sweet, as is a turn 4 SGC), but weakens your matchup against aggressive decks and the mirror. If you're not running any Wastes or Ports, Tomb might be a good option to consider.

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In a meta of entirely basics, I'd run that 4th Taiga for consistency of G for Grips and Hooligans(if they're mained). I tried the Tomb list, I liked the acceleration, didn't like the self damage. Ports are hot, 2-4 are good. If you don't have any Ports/Wastelands, you might be able to go to 21 lands, but I wouldn't drop below that. 22-23 has been a sweet spot for my list(and apparently Juju and Baron too :P )

Everyone says that Goblins needs to play 22 lands. I've built my list around this mentality too, but once, for the sake of messing around, I changed my mana base to this:

4 Foothills
3 Wasteland
4 Badlands
7 Mountains
=18 Lands

And I ran 2 Blood Moon, 1 Goblin King and 1 SGC in the open slots.

The thing is, it wasn't awful. Sure, normal Goblins was better, but this build was faster and drew more threats, however, its late game was much worse. You actually got colorscrewed about as rarely as you do in 22 land Gobs, but often you'd have trouble hitting your 4th Land Drop, and we know how essential that is.

That leads me to ask a strange questions: If not running the full number of ports/wastes, or none, what is the lowest number of lands Goblins can go down to? 18 seemed to low, but 20 might be acceptable.