Printable View
His post, unlike yours, was actually fairly polite. If you're going to fail to provide anything useful and throw a fit at anyone who points out the flaws in your logic, just stop posting.Quote:
Originally Posted by radley
I like the black splash, it shores up combo. And Tsabo's Decree would be a backbreaker in the sideboard. Of course, Tin-Street is a lot better against Thresh and Angel Stompy. Which is more of a metagame concern, though?
Tsabo's decree for the mirror match...yikes. I like it. And yes, therapy is quite retarded in goblins. I'd rather have better game against combo and the mirror, as opposed to more game against a mu you already are favored in (threshold) and a deck that is designed to beat you anyway (therapy is amazing against AS btw, at least in red death it is).
This is the million dollar question which is driving me nuts.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
I'd rather have the Tin-Street unquestionably against any deck packing The Goblinslayers, Jitte and SOFI. While you can Therapy these cards out of their hand, you can bet your feet when it matters most they'll peel the equipment off the top and turn the tables on you.
I'd rather have Therapy against Engineered Plague than green's Krosan Grip. Decks packing Plague can knock Krosan Grip out of your hand. They'll have a much harder time knocking Therapy out of your hand -and- your graveyard.
I'd rather have Therapy against combo, as maindecked Therapies raise your chances of winning the first game against combo and thereby drop the number of slots you need for it in the board.
I don't know which I'd rather have in the mirror. (I'm 1-1 Testing from the side of R/B Goblins) Tin-Street eats vials and the random Jitte for the few who pack it. Therapy eats Matrons and Ringleaders. It's a completely different strategy here. R/G goes for victory through being able to cast more goblins and keep the opponent off mana/vials to match, and R/B goes for the victory by having superior resources.
I'd rather have Tin-Street against decks packing Pithing Needle. Fuck Pithing Needle. T.S. Hooligan owns Pithing Needle.
I'm currently testing R/B, R/G, and R/B/G all at once, and am liking the 3-color splash a lot with a manabase of 8 Fetches, 3 Badlands, 2 Taiga, 4 Mountain, 3 Waste, and 2 Port. I board Therapy out in the Mirror for Pyrokinesis and try not to fetch Badlands more than necessary. It's still sort of a risky proposition though.
Cabal Therapy seems to be at its weakest against decks packing Brainstorm, with Solidarity being the exception. Against UBW Fish decks, for instance, Therapy quickly nets Plague being hidden behind a Brainstorm.
Therapy's been amazing against Pyroclasm, though. I was playing against one of those UWR Pyroclasm Fish decks online, which let a Lackey swing through into a Siege-Gang thinking to Pyroclasm it next turn. I ripped out two Pyroclasms from their hand with the Therapy. So much for that.
As for Tsabo's Decree, could you reliably cast it? It'd be superhot sex if you pulled it off. Like Mario after rescuing the Princess from Bowser's Castle hot. The cost seems iffy though.
Tsabo's Decree sucks, you need 6 mana to cast it and you're talking about playing a low-land (22) build in the first place when going Rb. Rg should probably have the advantage in the mirror, especially with the 24 lands, due to the wonders of the 'draw-step', as well as the fact that even though Therapy can be nice, without Vials and low on land, they can't really go crazy unless they can somehow get their Lackeys through.
It's not really a question as to whether or not therapy is good. If therapy was red.. every Gob deck would at least board it. You also forget to mention that you have 8 ways to tutor for Tin St when you need it. Also Krosan grip is irreplaceable. With the power of tin street and grip you would be losing a lot by just running R/B. So the question is how good port is and the 3-4 slots you're giving up for the therapies (which are what by the way?). While therapy is an amazing card and certainly does help you vs black more.. there are tons of alternatives that you can get from Red, Green, and Artifact cards. Vs solidarity I have found that Chalice, Pillar, Sometimes rishadan port, and pressure are enough to put the game well in your favor gmaes two and three. If you play against a weak solidarity player (there aren't many strong ones out there although I do test with one) Port is surprisingly helpful if it comes in multiples. The superior resources that come with black.. I'm not sure which you are talking about I just hope you dont mean bidding or living death.
I expect a good amount of goblin hate. I expect to see the same thing as GP Philly. People will play White Weenie because they feel it beats goblins. Engineered plagues and chills will be everywhere. Usually when I build a tier 1 deck like goblins I prepare it to face a lot of hate and to deal with any randomness I play against. Cabal Therapy is extremely good for that. But B/R goblins loses main deck tutorable artifact hate. R/G/B Allows you to lose to wastelands if you draw into too many nonbasics, and in a 9 round swiss.. It's probably going to happen. I like 23 land also because mana flood is not really a big deal as long as you can get a matron, ringleader, or siege gang in play. My solution to E Plague is 3 Krosan Grip and 2x Patron of the Akki and it has worked awesome so far.
Double posts merged. Please use the edit button when immediately adding to a post in the future. - Zilla
I really want to play the black splash for Therapy. But I do not ever want to lose the power of green's artifact and enchantment hate, so I am testing the 3 color build. I am not worried about the mana base at all because with 24 lands, I can fit everything in fine. The thing that is hard is wanting Therapies in the main. 3 would be the perfect amount MD. So would you play Therapies main or side in a 3 color deck? If so what would you take out? Too difficult for me to decide. But anyways I have been working with this list.
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
2 Badlands
4 Mountains
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Tin Street Hooligan
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Siege-Gang Commander
SB
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Krosan Grip
4 Pyrokinesis
Has been working well, but Therapy hasn't done more than what Chalice has. That is why I want it main because it gives me a good shot at the win. I don't want to splash if it is just for a SB card when I already had good SB cards. I could probably cut 1 SGC, a Port, and a Tin Street or Mogg. I then would add 3 Therapies.
How would this list look.
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
2 Badlands
4 Mountains
4 Aether Vial
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Tin Street Hooligan
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander
SB
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Cabal Therapy
3 Krosan Grip
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Tormod's Crypt
Thoughts?
looks similar to the build I started testing. Not because i think the blakc splash is a good idea, but to show results and prove that it isn't worth it. The problem with running only 2 badlands is that you might not necessarily draw that or a fetch in a time you actually need it. Running 24 lands and therapies? thats a little much.. giving up a lot of speed and jolt in the deck.. even with three colors you could probably swing for 23 and cut one port. I would rather run therapies in the board if at all so you can bring them in vs the decks they are intended for.. you cant afford to lose the speed for the discard. In my build with therapy MD i took out 1x siege gang (now 2) 1xTin St (now one as a tutor target) and I believe i took one incinerator out (3x total) .. I think those cards.. and every card that can be taken out is better than the three therapies and on top of that your mana base gets worse. I made the deck on short notice though so i possibly could have made better cuts. Good luck with it though.
got to admit.. if goblins was as popular as people think it is.. tsabo's decree would actually be a very good mirror card.. only problem is.. it's a waste of a sideboard slot. Goblins will probably be about 10% of the field which means you'll probably play against it once. Tsabo's decree isn't good against anything else unless your meta is elves and clerics. Every sideboard card you play should help vs multiple decks. At GP Philly I was laughing at opponents who said goblins was going to be 50% of the field. I had 2 byes on rating and decided to play the GPT on the third.. went 6-1 drop so i could get rest for the next day.. faced goblins once in both days.
Double posts merged. Please use the edit button when immediately adding to a post in the future. Also, please use proper capitalization and punctuation, as they are required on these boards. Thanks. - Zilla
Tsabo's Decree has, and always will, be a horrible mirror-card (Goblins often tend to be as much as 20% of the field, but that's hardly relevant). The fact is that in a match-up where both decks destroy their own, and opponent's lands, and all the mana accelerants only affect creatures, 6-mana spells don't matter. See how all the mirror-tech is cheap (Pyrokinesis, Tin Street Hooligan, etc.)? That's because in the mirror, you'll already be spending your money fighting tooth and nail for the board position. That's also why Jitte is bad in the mirror; Mogg Fanatic prevents it from getting counters and all the removal means that you would've probably won anyways if you get it active; in the normal sitiuation, you'll end up with 4 mana totally wasted instead, something you can't afford in the mirror against decent players. Also, those cards just happen to be more versatile, so there you go.
If you want SB-only hate, Therapy isn't necessary. Chalice, Pillar, blasts, Crypt and company give you all the SB-combo hate you could ever want. The point is, Therapy allows you to not autolose G1 to combo, which really makes a difference as trying to win two games in a row against a deck capable of killing turn 1 is going to be extremely difficult even with all the hate in the world. So rather have a good chance in all three games than focus on the two. That's the purpose and the benefit of the black splash; giving you an MDable anti-combo card that just happens to be very strong against just about everything else too, and synergistic to boot. Also, Dralnu's Crusade is a fine answer to Plague as it's pro-active along with being also a good answer to annoying white decks with stuff like pro-red critters, RoP: Red, Sphere of Law and other nonsense.
23 lands and 3 Therapies leaves you with exactly 30 Goblins, bottomline playable I guess, but frighteningly low, especially since the last cuts will be very hard.
Okkkkk so you're saying keep or lose the ports in a 23 land 3 color deck? And Dralnu's Crusade is ok vs plague.. but Patron and Grip do the job fine. I'm not sure if you've tested vs decks like white weenie, faery stompy, and other pro red decks.. but dralnu's crusade doesn't make the difference. Killing the equipment is the key to beating both decks.. then you can just run around them. Dralnu's crusade is only going to make your guys bigger, you can't even use incinerator on them. And btw I know you haven't tested combo matchups because Goblins isn't drawing dead on combo game ones.. I play the matchups all the time.. and I do win a lot of game ones by applying pressure, using wastes and ports, sometimes hitting things with tin st and playing a FAST goblin deck without therapies.. Whereas games 2 and 3 are well in your favor and you can mulligan aggressively.
So you feel like ignoring the whole 'If I played Rb'-part. I play Rg. And no, Dralnu's Crusade would NOT come in vs. Faerie Stompy. That much should be obvious to even the most casual observer. And of course straight Rb would be forced to play a number of Tinkerers and try to use skillz to actually make them do their job against equipment (along with Therapy helping, of course). Vs. Angel Stompy, it would come in as they can't really get an equipped creature edgewise as long as your Fanatics can take out their Priests and prevent their Knights from getting counters (and SGC can just wipe out their board).
I've tested the match-up against TES, Belcher and Iggy G1 and it's practically something like 75/25 or worse against you if the opponent is competent. Sure, sometimes you win off your mana disruption or them stalling out (and vs. Belcher, through them being unable to activate Belcher immediately giving you a chance to destroy it), but most of the time, they'll just roll over you (playing 10 games, you'll be lucky to win 3). Therapy improves the odds incredibly as whenever you draw it with any relevant discardables, you basically win the game unless your hand is crap. And no, Therapy doesn't make Goblins any slower. You still play 4 Lackeys, 4 Fanatics, 4 Piledrivers, 4 Warchiefs, 4 Matrons and some number of SGCs, all the elements you want for a turn 3 kill. What it does is replaces some utility-slots with utility relevant against combo. Spend B to make opponent go off 3-4 turns later is worth it, especially if you have a Lackey or even a Vial. You'll be losing about 3-4 points of damage, but still going lethal at approximately the same time due to the functionings of Goblins, and your opponent will not be going off before you.
Bank on your G2 and 3 all you want, but aggressively mulliganing to below 6 is pretty dumb as none of your hate is a permanent answer, just a way to slow them down, so you'll need to get your own gameplan to function too to win, and you'll also encounter those hands you'd normally have to mull too, so you can easily lose G2 or 3 just to a less-than-average 7 cards into slow 6 cards with some hate in them. The fact that only so many hands are keepable and random screws happen in Magic is really the main reason you'd want all 3 of your games to be good; you can't afford to throw games away when the game itself is out to get you in addition to your opponent.
23 lands=probably 4/3 configuration with 4 Ports and 3 Wastes. Ports are still your most important tools against the ever-growing number of controllish decks, and Solidarity too. It's also more relevant against competent Iggy-players fetching basics.
First off.. the amount of games you win depends on what deck you are playing against.. and what if the crusade comes out late? if grip comes late that's fine.. but jitte and sword can wipe out your board pretty fast with swords back up.. with grip you have a lot more options. In my testing.. most forms of combo have been never more than a 2- a 2 and 1/2 to 1 favorite over goblins. Nevermind if you are actually playing against hardly consistant ones. Nothing wrong with aggressively mulling vs particular combo decks if say chalice for 0 will either win or buy you a lot of time.. or if you're stuck with expensive cards in your hand that you will never get to cast before you shortly die.. then i still would. You act like game 1 is an autoloss.. it's not in your favor.. but it's nowhere near an autoloss. Inconsistant decks like belcher fizzle out almost as often as they work (granted my testing vs belcher opponents hasn't been vs the highest calibur players). You also act like it's very easy for them to woprk around chalices and pillars.. when it isn't.
Why'd you ever want to SB Crusade over Grip? The fact remains that there's no black Grip so you'd best just work with what you've got. The black artifact removal-spells are too weak to really consider and frankly, red is just fine as far as destroying artis go. It's the versatility that the red removal lacks. Crusade does a lot in multiple different MUs, which in my opinion warrants inclusion if possible, most importantly as black's only real anti-Plague tool.Quote:
Originally Posted by Awesomator
Depends. They might just draw a hand that just happens to ignore the Chalice you played (LEDs if you played it at 1, Rituals if you played it at 0), and Pillar is rather weak unless you can get heavy damage through or it along with Chalice. Playing through the cards isn't easy by any means (unless you happen to have a hand that ignores the card in question), but it is going to happen eventually, which means that if you cripple your own gameplan to get hate, you're very likely to lose anyways. And I don't claim to have exact match-up percentages, lists and skill vary. Fast combo still tends to have strategic superiority over Vial Goblins G1, since they're rather resilient to all the disruption you throw at them, they don't rely on attacking through hordes of blockers and their fundamental turn is earlier than yours. G2, you try to shift that but you don't achieve total strategic superiority just because your disruption is now relevant since it just tends to slow them down to the same speed as you seeing that they need to generally see more cards to get the anti-hate to win through your disruption. Having G1 closer to slight unfavourability would take a lot of pressure off your sided games (not to mention, lessen the needed SB-space to properly SB for those MUs as you already have relevant cards MDd) and make the matches closer to even or even favourable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Awesomator
I'm not arguing that cabal therapy helps vs combo.. but it does hurt other matchups. There is obviously still a reason you're playing R/G Eldariel. The deck should be prepared to deal with anything.. and 3 sideboarded grip does that a lot better than 3 MD therapy.. not to mention the MD tutorable artifact hate with tin st. Depending on which combo deck you play againt.. chalice is nearly unavoidable. Vs Iggy.. 0 is extremely hard to run around.. it's possible but the combo player either needs to get extremely lucky with a lot of cabal rits and dark rits.. but on top of that, they have to do it with a clock on them. Pillar with a clock or multiple pillars can stop the amount of spells they can cast and end the game there. Vs solidarity Pillars are key.. Cunning Wish + Bounce which are necessary to get rid of pillar are at least 4 damage. Vs Belcher they are inconsistant enough.. getting chalice for 0 shakes the deck up to even worse condition than it's already in. While chalice is the nuts vs NQG, burn, among other decks. Chalice has a ridiculous number of uses, as does pillar. It's not completely geared toward combo, but it helps a lot. Having a versatile sideboard is the key to winning and those two cards help in a lot of matchups.
A lot of you seem to be making a mistake when it comes to Cabal Therapy. It's not strictly an anti-combo card. It doubles as a way to hit random crap that Goblins hates seeing. Pyroclasm, Engineered Plague, Solitary Confinement, and so on.
Cabal therapy is a great card in general.. just not needed in goblins. Cabal Therapy is one of my favorite cards and I still don't like it in the deck. Whether you go just B/R and lose Grip and Tin ST.. or you go to 3 colors and either ruin your mana base, play too much land for a goblin deck, or lose port.. in all of those scenarios lose goblins.. none of which are worth it.
And Gempalm Incinerator and Ringleader in the mirror. Perhaps SGC, Fanatic and Warchief too. And maybe even Matron. The reason I advocate the Therapy-splash MD is because it's synergistic AND good in just about all MUs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
it's a 1 for 1 in the mirror.. not great and not bad either.. you're losing goblins just to put the card in the deck anyway so it's not going to give the nice edge you think it is. That's if you're going 3 color. If you go for 2 color tin street may make a big difference in the MU.
There arent many goblins Im willing to sacrifice early game. Fanatic..
Mid game theres Matron, and maybe Ringleader. Your really pressing that therapy should be used to cut the opponents answer off before its cast, if thats the case you need to really mise your therapy the first call, or lose board position. The best part about Tin is he keeps you on track of killing your opponent while providing disruption. Therapy as long as it doesnt whiff, can be great in the mirror. Having Tin kill the opponents vial and giving you a body sounds like a way better deal.
Which is very obvious this argument should have been done a while ago. Any other things of interest people have found red or green?
I'd use goblin pyromancer for mirror match, it's like wrath of god. Keep tin and sideboard cabal therapy against combo or control deck. Mainboard badlands and bloodstained mire.