i've allways liked the ability from chant to say : "no you dont attack to kill me this turn" vs big stompy/aggro decks!
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i've allways liked the ability from chant to say : "no you dont attack to kill me this turn" vs big stompy/aggro decks!
It's nice but it's unnecessary, splitting Orim's Chant and Silence gives you redundancy vs Meddling Mage, and it's just more practical to address hate than it is to address aggro - which you steam roll any way. Besides, it's only 1 less Orim's Chant, so I doubt you'd even notice.Quote:
Originally Posted by evilchen
MD 3 Orim's Chant and 3 Silence, SB 4 Pyroblast just seems really strong.
Note: For anybody still playing around with my list, I've come to the conclusion discard and Red blasts are terrible together, so I've cut Red blasts for Cabal Therapy. Cabal Therapy has been fairly strong, because it either nails Counterbalance or multiple Stifles/Spellsnares and makes them actually cast Force of Will and Counterspell if they have multiples. The best part tho' is that Tinder Wall turns Cabal Therapy into a pseudo Orim's Chant for the Ill Gotten Gains win if the game goes long, so you can win at 1 life off of Burning Wish if you happen to have an Infernal Tutor and Cabal Therapy in your graveyard.
Well iam playing TES for 2-3 weeks now and after some tests vs the 10 Land Stompy i've bitterly needed this option to say "No attack this turn" because he was steam rolling me :/!Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
I never had problems with aggro, doesn't matter how fast as long as it wasn't disruptive.Quote:
Originally Posted by evilchen
They have a turn 3-4 deck, we have a turn 1-3 deck, that's it.
Yeah but first turn amethyst slowed me little for example :/!
And then second turn -9 and third would be my save death without chant!
Btw iam not saying silence is bad, i just like Orims kicker !
Last saturday i got a 3rd place in 20+ players tournament. My pairings:
Road to the top 8
Round 1: Monogreen: 2-0. 1-0-0
Round 2: Elves aggro: 1-0. 2-0-0
Round 3: Monoblack: 1-2. 2-1-0
Round 4: Burn: 2-0. 3-1-0
Top 8
Quarterfinal: Tarmoburn: 2-0. 4-1-0
Semifinal: Rock: 1-2. 4-2-0
3rd place: Drop. 5-2-0
In general i think that i was lucky with the match ups...
My list for discussion:
Lands
4 [AN] City of Brass
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
1 [CHK] Forbidden Orchard
1 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise
// Spells
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
4 [B] Dark Ritual
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
2 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
2 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
3 [US] Duress
3 [LRW] Ponder
1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
1 [MI] Mystical Tutor
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 3 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 4 [R] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [6E] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 2 [SC] Xantid Swarm
I think that SB needs more help than de maindeck.
Is there a reason you guys are cutting a Ponder for a removal spell when you're only running 2 Mystical Tutor? I mean Brainstorm/Pondering into Ad Nauseam is arguably one of the strongest plays Storm has, and it just seems like you're sacrificing consistency for the sake of running a card you really shouldn't need MD any way.
Running a bounce spell is perfectly acceptable. Opponents play cards that are bad for us after all.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
And while we're at it, when Chain of Vapor isn't bouncing things that are bad for you (and sometimes even when it is), it's crazy good at generating Storm via Moxen/LED bouncing while you're going off. A single blue has sometimes netted me 5 or more storm count (not to mention the fact that you can sac a tapped land to bounce a tapped mox to play the mox again untapped to net mana, too).Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Chain of Vapor is just good here.
Hi all TESers,
I'm pretty beginning to evaluate if this deck can be a good choice as a combo deck to be played, and i'm testing it. I've already talked with GreenOne about it, and he has explained consistently which are its strengths and its weaknesses. however, there's the "usual " thing which preserves me from completely trusting this deck: the fact that it can't really fight a counterbalance once it has been settled, and its complete ( i guess) autoloss to cb+top lock (well, i guess that's all storm -combo based decks nemesis).
So i wanted to ask a peculiar question to the experts ( and in particular to its creator): have you ever met times when you were compelled to face a quick cb+top lock GAME 1? what did you do, and , possibly, are there any way(s) to get out of that fucking situation? Is there any magical trick to escape the well? And most of all, has evr one of you managed to go off from there?
In comparison, FT lists sometimes play a MD grip at least, which can allow them to survive somehow.. while here the only thing i see is chain of vapor ,and it's pretty risky since cb+top decks usually have the major percentage of casting drops focused on 1, ofc.
I know you could barely answer me with " go off before they drop balance", but i found this to be almost impossible, considering you usually want to assemble some pieces of protections/combo in hand and so, often, want to sculpt and manipulate a minimum of turns. Ah, and they also have daze, force, ecc, so you can exactly act the "all in" way on turn1 unproctected.. ou draw the god hand, or you just have to wait. And every turn you give 'em seems to be another heartstroke fearing that counterbalance will come down.
Duress btw doesn't always work, the fucking magical trick " duress you, in resp i brainstorm and hide my blue hosers" is more common than what i thought.
At this point, performing in a heavy blue-based deck, i'm asking myself: could MD pyroblasts be a good choice, instead of-maybe-duresses? At the end this deck can just push it over and steamroll non blue (well, if it doesn't begin to draw shitty things..) lists, and eventually pyroblasts could be thrown randomly increasing the storm count. I know it's antisynergic with the IGG loom but hey, i guess we can't have everything easy..
You could also answer me "bring another deck to your meta", but i like it the hard way.
Another thing: i'd like to know, if possible, what do ya think about the MatchUp %s against Dreadstill, Threshold with CB and Landstill with the new Cook's list? Seems we're pretty low here..
I repeat, the deck kinda charms me, but the "crew" decks of Legacy-which do you expect with higher probability to make top8 and to meet if you're going well in tourneys-are, most of the tmes, packing blue, and i usually don't get paired against NourishingLich or ElfBall..
EDIT: against cb thresh, what usually should be cut out to make room for the sb pyroblasts? i usually cut 2 ponders , but i fell the necessity to run at least 3 pyros, if not 4.. but really can't understand what should be sided out without losing combo consistency.
You are talking about me, right? Since I have never seen you play the deck at all since 2006.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinder
This month 24 out of 144 decks that made Top8 played counterbalance, and not every deck has 4 (someone had them in the side too). This means that against an unknown opponent you meet at a tourney, you have the 16% probability that he's playing counterbalance in his deck, and roughly the 6% of the probability that your unknown opponent will play a counterbalance on turn 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Piceli89
I'm going to take the chance and try to win every other matchup preboard. After boarding Pyroblast and maybe more duresses come in to help.
This other post sums my beliefs pretty well.
If you fear counterbalance that much you can try with pyroblasts, duresses, REBs and Shushers.
You're a lucky guy. Nourishing Lich is obviously a DTB, and one of worst combo matchups. (see my sig for more testing results)Quote:
Originally Posted by Piceli89
Here are some general SB strategies I use.Quote:
Originally Posted by Piceli89
And of those cards that are bad for us, which ones actually require you to tutor for Chain of Vapor and which ones prevent you from tutoring for Chain of Vapor altogether? Once Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void at 1 hit, Mystical Tutor -> Chain of Vapor is worthless, and against Gaddock Teeg I don't think it's really necessary given we have Burning Wish and the fact you're only running 2 Mystical Tutors any way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
We played Burning Wish based combo because we didn't want to waste MD space on removal, putting it back in, and putting it back in for just 2 Mystical Tutors for game one just seems like a step backwards. I don't think the mulligan to six is remotely worth running the card, especially over the consistency of Ponder #4.
Althought it happens rarely, CoV helps when our opponent is playing nasty enchantments. We actually don't have SB solutions to enchantments, and something like solitary confinament or runed halo ruins our day.
I guess it can be safely substituted for some other kind of bounce or even one more duress, depending on your meta.
So I was hoping to get some help with this deck, I'm not a combo player at all but I'm looking at broadening my horizons a bit. But I have some questions:
1. Is everyone preferring 4 burning wish to 4 mystical tutor?
2. How many ad nauseums, IGGs are standard?
3. Are people still running doomsday successfully?
4. Is meditate an option at all?
5. Finally, what about krosan grip somewhere between the 75?
I was thinking something like this:
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Top
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
4 LED
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Duress
4 Orim's Chant
2 Ad Nauseum
4 Brainstorm
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Doomsday
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Krosan Grip
1 Forbidden Orchard
1 Undiscovered Paradise
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
Is this workable? Keep in mind this is my first crack at it.
Im not understanding the vexing shusher in the sb, is the shusher there just for the xantid swarm in the sb ?
This list is definitely different. I don't think the D-Day plan will work for you as it's pretty clunky if you don't have enough mana and shuffle effects. Since you are going with the Rainbow land mana base, there's virtually no shuffle effects in your list other than tutors, and that's not acceptable for Top in a combo list, and only 10x lands isn't enough to power a top efficiently in the first place in my opinion. I'd drop Doomsday. If you like D-Day and want it to stay, change your manabase and go for a more ANT list. Also, when playing Doomsday, Meditate shouldn't be just an option, but considered more of a staple. If D-Day goes in my list, so does Meditate. It's essential. In TES, I believe that Grips belong in the Sideboard if you run them at all. Bounce belongs main. It takes care of more disruption than K. Grip will.Quote:
Originally Posted by 3duece
On the Tutor thing, it depends on what you are wanting. Since you aren't using any red accel, it seems that Mystical is the better choice. However, depending on what you are wanting, I'd add in red as it opens your sideboard up for more answers via burning wish game one. As a plus, I find that B. Wish makes Sideboarding infinitely easier, not to mention avoiding chalice @ 1 on a much more consistant basis.
I prefer Pyroblasts over Chants, and that helps influence playing red as well.
There's more, but I'll let bryant or someone else answer the more indepth parts of your questions as I'm in class right now and I'm getting funny looks from my professor.
Pce,
--DC
Wow, thank you for the thorough reply. But it brings me to another question, hopefully not too ignorant of one. What are the benefits of playing T.E.S. over ANT over FT? I notice alot of folks in the FT thread don't even bother with Ad Nauseum. Is this possibly good? I think I'm looking into a fetchland manabase with red for rite of flame, burning wish and empty the warrens. With this shell what's the standard number of Ad Nauseums, IGG, Tendrils and Doomsday (for some reason I really want Doomsday, I'll fit a meditate in if I have to)?
Being a control player I'd like to ask what the proper play is if I'm playing against you and only have a FoW + blue card in my hand for disruption. In the situation that you first play Orim's Chant, do I FoW it and hope to psych you out that I may have something else (most people I play against just continue on assuming I have nothing else), or do I just hope you fizzle/die to AdN and hang on to my unplayable (until next turn) FoW?
I'm thinking that I usually should FoW just so you can't IGG loop on me without getting around the FoW later on. Is this right?
Thanks in advance.
Just FOW the chant. It is natural for combo players to continue even if their chant gets forced because the longer they wait, the more chance of you drawing into more answers. It is a risk that combo players have to face.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition