[Deck] Aggro Loam

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Originally Posted by pocari79

I played the list that top 8ed the GP with the following sideboard this weekend:

3 Leyline of the Void
2 Slaughter Games
2 Thoughtseize
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Engineered Plague
1 Choke
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge

Deck felt good to play, however I had problems with sideboarding against Mentor Miracles and Grixis control.

Against miracles, I was taking out 3 Punishing Fire, 1 Sylvan Library, 1 Scavenging Ooze and 2 Life from the Loam and putting in 2 Slaughter Games, 1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, 1 Engineered Plague, 1 Choke, 1 Reclamation Sage and 1 Sulfur Elemental.

Against Grixis control, I was taking out 1 Deathrite Shaman, 1 Sylvan Library, 1 Gaddock Teeg, 1 Scavenging Ooze and 2 Punishing Fire and putting in 3 Leyline of the Void, 1 Reclamation Sage, 1 Engineered Plague and 1 Choke.

I am pretty sure that I am not sideboarding correctly at all for these matchups, any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

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Purely from a outsider opinion(since my sideboard is a bit different) I would never take all punishing fires against Miracles, even less if its Mentor Miracles. I would go with -1 PFire -2 Mox(not sure if correct against Mentor) -1 Ooze -1 Loam -1 Maze -1 Shaman. If I am really afraid of the Mentor I might bring Deluge+Charm but I am not sure its necessary.

Against Grixis Control it really depends on the version. If it is the version with Shamans and Anglers I bring the Leylines, if not I wont bring them. I believe the matchup is quite good for us.
I believe you need the Deluge and Charm in this matchup

3 Punishing Fire
No way this is correct. You wanna board out like 1-2 against normal miracles, and it is better here.

1 Sylvan Library
If the deck plays out anything like normal miracles, (control rather than tempo) Library is amazing. Only cut it in matchups like infect where you literally can't take a turn off the whole game.

1 Scavenging Ooze
It is a dumb beater and you don't need dumb beaters.

2 Life from the Loam
Typically against miracles I leave 1 in. They do play non-basics and in the late-game Loam > Jace.


How have people been liking Slaughter Games against "tempo miracles"? It feels like they are actually just playing tempo against us and The T3 mentor is their biggest thing. As a non-blue deck things have to go pretty well for us to play Games before they play mentor, and afterwards the card does not help.

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Originally Posted by apocolyps6

3 Punishing Fire
No way this is correct. You wanna board out like 1-2 against normal miracles, and it is better here.

1 Sylvan Library
If the deck plays out anything like normal miracles, (control rather than tempo) Library is amazing. Only cut it in matchups like infect where you literally can't take a turn off the whole game.

1 Scavenging Ooze
It is a dumb beater and you don't need dumb beaters.

2 Life from the Loam
Typically against miracles I leave 1 in. They do play non-basics and in the late-game Loam > Jace.


How have people been liking Slaughter Games against "tempo miracles"? It feels like they are actually just playing tempo against us and The T3 mentor is their biggest thing. As a non-blue deck things have to go pretty well for us to play Games before they play mentor, and afterwards the card does not help.

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Still not enough testing but they feel kinda off. When you are able to cast 1 early game is great but since it goes to a more aggressive game they don't feel as awesome as they are against regular miracles

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Originally Posted by Pilhas

-2 Mox(not sure if correct against Mentor)

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I've seen this more than a few times with regards to various match-ups, but as I have yet to take out a single Mox in any game ever, I'm still thoroughly confused. Why take out Mox Diamond against Miracles (or DnT or whatever)? I am never not thrilled to see a Mox.

In other news, as to boarding preferences...

I don't like bringing in the full complement of Leylines against any variety of Grixis. If you want to gamble with a singleton, go ahead. But Leyline is not critical in the slightest, and seeing it outside of your opening hand can be devastating for you. And God forbid you ever see multiples of it.

I liked Slaughter Games a lot more against "old Miracles" than I do against "new Miracles". I went back down to only a single copy in the sideboard after Mentor started getting to be the norm. Casting Slaugher Games and naming either Monastery Mentor or Sensei's Divining Top still feels amazing, but the old style of Miracles was such that you could just cast Slaughter Games after Slaughter Games completely at your leisure to the point where they no longer had a deck. And that's not the case anymore. Getting laden with two or three Slaughter Games isn't the slow-roll godsend it used to be. I do still bring in my one copy, but only the one.

Try hitting tokens with Punishing Fire rather than the Mentor himself. It's easy for them to defend the Mentor, but you can usually trim back the tokens fairly easily. Not the most efficient path to victory, but it will give you enough breathing room to come up with a hard solution for Mentor.

How do you make room (ie; what to cut) against 1) Reanimator and 2) Omni-Tell? I don't know what I should be pulling.
Because I'm testing this deck out AND the SB is a pile/tinkering, I just need to know what I can realistically cut for G2/3 space.

Reanimator (1-0 online) - pulled Gaddock (1), Decays (3), Pfires (3) = 7 slots
Omni (0-2 online) - pulled Pfires (3), pulled a Sylvan (1), Maze? (1) = 4 or 5 slots

Cockatrice is not a good barometer, but it certainly helps shake the rust. Beat a UWx landstandstill deck easily. This deck is just value city.

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Originally Posted by pocari79

I played the list that top 8ed the GP with the following sideboard this weekend:

3 Leyline of the Void
2 Slaughter Games
2 Thoughtseize
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Engineered Plague
1 Choke
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge

Deck felt good to play, however I had problems with sideboarding against Mentor Miracles and Grixis control.

Against miracles, I was taking out 3 Punishing Fire, 1 Sylvan Library, 1 Scavenging Ooze and 2 Life from the Loam and putting in 2 Slaughter Games, 1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, 1 Engineered Plague, 1 Choke, 1 Reclamation Sage and 1 Sulfur Elemental.

Against Grixis control, I was taking out 1 Deathrite Shaman, 1 Sylvan Library, 1 Gaddock Teeg, 1 Scavenging Ooze and 2 Punishing Fire and putting in 3 Leyline of the Void, 1 Reclamation Sage, 1 Engineered Plague and 1 Choke.

I am pretty sure that I am not sideboarding correctly at all for these matchups, any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

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With your sideboard, I would board like this against Mentor Miracles (GP Lille Winner):

-1 Sc. Ooze
-1 Loam
-2 Mox Diamond
-1 Maze of Ith
-1 Punishing Fire

+1 Rec. Sage
+1 Sl. Games
+1 Choke
+1 E. Plague
+1 S. Elemental
+1 Thalia

If you could link a sample decklist to a Grixis Control list I can also give you my opinion to that matchup ;)

@Warden:

Considering the SB suggested by pocari:

Omnitell:

-1 Maze of Ith
-3 Fire
-3 Decay
-1 Loam
-1 Liliana
-1 Ooze

+2 Slaughter Games
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
+1 Ethersworn Canonist
+1 Reclamation Sage
+1 Choke
+1 Golgari Charm (I would like to have the second Charm here over the Deluge!)
+1 Plague (Do not like this, second Charm would be better to board in)

Reanimate:

-3 Fire
-2 Loam
-2 Library
-1 Teeg
-1 Decay (you need some for P. Needle)

+3 Leyline of the Void
+2 Slaughter Games
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
+1 Ethersworn Canonist

@schniggaz
Do you think canonist is good vs reanimate? I usually find it lackluster, eould probably prefer sage over it

As a DNT player, how should I be siding? There's so many angles to your deck. I feel like I want 2 rip, e tutor, needle, absolute law. I play green splash so I also want library.

Is thalia and Wingmare an issue for u guys? Do I bring in aageddon? Really hoping you guys can shed some light.

I've only played the deck once

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Originally Posted by neddsaurus

As a DNT player, how should I be siding? There's so many angles to your deck. I feel like I want 2 rip, e tutor, needle, absolute law. I play green splash so I also want library.

Is thalia and Wingmare an issue for u guys? Do I bring in aageddon? Really hoping you guys can shed some light.

I've only played the deck once

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Taxing effects are good when you attack our mana, you know that we are probably shaving CotV so you wont be needing disenchants. I like RiP, Absolute Law and Needle here. If you can do a tempoish game, attack our mana with a thalia on board and another beater I think you are good to go.

Ever since GP Lille I have been playing this deck and I like it a lot. I am still having issues with the Miracles matchup. Between a few tournaments my records are 2-1, 3-0 and 2-1-2. The two losses and two draws have all been against various flavor of miracles.

I seem to win game 1 based on attrition, chalice and wastelands. Games two and three seem atrocious. The last event I lost every game two and often had <10 minutes left for game threes.

All of my game 2/3s seem to play out the same way. Since they know my general game plan, they bring in blood moon, wear/tear, rest in peace. I prefetch a forest and let blood moon resolve. Usually from there on out, I'm trying to dig for an answer to bloodmoon while they try to land a threat.

When is the best time to call it quits when you fall behind?

For games 2/3 I've been shaving loams and thinning punishing fires. I also sideboard out a knight for a Thrun, since he doesn't rely on the graveyard and requires them to find terminus pronto.

I've been boarding in: choke, Golgari charm, Thrun, rec sage and slaughter games.

- I've been unimpressed with choke. It's basically a card that slows them down but can be dealt with. Has anyone tried boil in this spot?
- Lilliana is a house against them, but near impossible to cast under a
- Likewise, if you slaughter games, what do you name? Usually their threats are well diversified, so it doesn't do much. Obviously it's good against the mentor version
- Lastly, I've been toying with the idea of changing a barren moor into a basic swamp, to help mitigate against the blood moon decks. Lands only plays two cycles, why do we play 3?

Thanks for all the responses!!! Will definitely test out all the recommendations.

@schniggaz
I am not sure what my opponent's exact grixis control list was but it did have multiple True-Name Nemesis, some Jace, Mind Sculptors, Young Pyromancers, Gurmag Anglers, Dig Through Times, Dack Fayden and no Deathrites. Game 1 I pretty much just lost to a True-Name cause I couldn't stick a Liliana to kill it and Game 2 I tapped out for no good reason and got Blood Mooned even though I had an abrupt decay in hand and was thinking I should leave up mana for it.... I did have a basic forest in play and was waiting for a Mox Diamond to cast a decay but then he played a sideboard Null Rod and that was it. I did have the turn 0 leyline against him and he said after the game that it did cripple his deck so it seems like a legit card to board in if it makes an impact like that.

@maCHOOga
I also feel like wanting to replace a cycling land with a basic swamp. In all my games during the weekend, I either pitched the cycling lands I drew to fuel the Mox Diamonds on turn 1 or I just cycled it as soon as possible to try to dig deeper in the deck. I know it's meant to save your Life from the Loam against cards like Surgical Extraction but I hardly got Loam and the cycling lands in my hand/graveyard at the same time so maybe I'm just using the cycling lands wrong?

Cycle lands

I think you guys are expecting a bit too much of individual cards. The cycle lands are there because there isn't too much else to spend a single mana on, and they make loam better in a couple of ways. It isn't "meant" for any kind of higher purpose. The reason we play 3 cycle lands and Lands plays 2 is the same reason D&T plays 4 Thalias and Maverick plays 3.

Choke V Boil

When are you playing your Choke? The card wins games. If they tap out on turn 2 and you land a choke they are basically half dead already. I'd play boil or Tsunami if they also turned all future islands into lotus petals.

Blood Moon

The "blood moon decks" all suck against us. Basically keep a fetch on the play or a mox in your opener and you win. Just getting to cast our spells against these decks is good enough. The decks that bring in moon (Miracles and Grixis) can be harder. This is mostly because blood moon is a humility for lands rather than color screw. As always, zenith for rec sage is not something they can take away from you.

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Originally Posted by pocari79

Thanks for all the responses!!! Will definitely test out all the recommendations.

@schniggaz
I am not sure what my opponent's exact grixis control list was but it did have multiple True-Name Nemesis, some Jace, Mind Sculptors, Young Pyromancers, Gurmag Anglers, Dig Through Times, Dack Fayden and no Deathrites. Game 1 I pretty much just lost to a True-Name cause I couldn't stick a Liliana to kill it and Game 2 I tapped out for no good reason and got Blood Mooned even though I had an abrupt decay in hand and was thinking I should leave up mana for it.... I did have a basic forest in play and was waiting for a Mox Diamond to cast a decay but then he played a sideboard Null Rod and that was it. I did have the turn 0 leyline against him and he said after the game that it did cripple his deck so it seems like a legit card to board in if it makes an impact like that.

@maCHOOga
I also feel like wanting to replace a cycling land with a basic swamp. In all my games during the weekend, I either pitched the cycling lands I drew to fuel the Mox Diamonds on turn 1 or I just cycled it as soon as possible to try to dig deeper in the deck. I know it's meant to save your Life from the Loam against cards like Surgical Extraction but I hardly got Loam and the cycling lands in my hand/graveyard at the same time so maybe I'm just using the cycling lands wrong?

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If he had TNN and YoungP you definitely need the charm and deluge. When they don't rely heavily on the graveyard(Shaman+Anglers) I usually do not bring the Leylines since a ooze might hurt more and is a beater.

I am not really sure if cycle lands are meant to protect loam, for me it is only a plus. They act as an engine in the late game and I see way to many people afraid of playing them as a tapland.

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Originally Posted by Pilhas

Taxing effects are good when you attack our mana, you know that we are probably shaving CotV so you wont be needing disenchants. I like RiP, Absolute Law and Needle here. If you can do a tempoish game, attack our mana with a thalia on board and another beater I think you are good to go.

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I have armageddon. Is that worthwhile to bring in?

What do I side out? Random beaters? I feel like I want to leave in pridemages for library and chalice if they're still left in. Revoker on mox and knight seem good. Is teeg x3 worthwhile to bring in?

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Originally Posted by neddsaurus

I have armageddon. Is that worthwhile to bring in?

What do I side out? Random beaters? I feel like I want to leave in pridemages for library and chalice if they're still left in. Revoker on mox and knight seem good. Is teeg x3 worthwhile to bring in?

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Teegs only stop 2 GSZ so they ar a no-go.
Without knowing the decklist is hard to say what to take out, and even still I do not play D&T so its kinda hard for me to know what you have to take out.
If you have crusaders they are good, mothers are obviously good, revoker are also good IMO. I have mixed feeling on the armaggedon, I think it is a bit of win more card.

I never lose against D&T when they try to out-grind me. But I lost quite a few times when they opt for a tempoish approach

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pilhas

Teegs only stop 2 GSZ so they ar a no-go.
Without knowing the decklist is hard to say what to take out, and even still I do not play D&T so its kinda hard for me to know what you have to take out.
If you have crusaders they are good, mothers are obviously good, revoker are also good IMO. I have mixed feeling on the armaggedon, I think it is a bit of win more card.

I never lose against D&T when they try to out-grind me. But I lost quite a few times when they opt for a tempoish approach

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Oh sorry

4 Mom
4 thalia
4 stoneforge
3 qasali
2 serra avenger
3 Revoker
2 Wingmare
3 flickerwisp

4 vial
4 stp
1 sword fire ice
Jitte
batterskull


Board
sylvan library
3 teeg
choke
1 absolute law
2 rip
3 ethersworn
1 needle
1 E Tutor
armageddon
grafdigger

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pilhas

@schniggaz
Do you think canonist is good vs reanimate? I usually find it lackluster, eould probably prefer sage over it

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Well, it is not that amazing, but I think it's fine. At least they can't go nuts in one turn by discarding a creature and reanimate in the same turn or bounce your gravehate and reanimate or cantrip into anything. Furthermore it is a creature you like to play out early to get some damage in. Rec Sage is different. You want to wait on him until there is a Needle out there and this means not getting in for a few points of damage which can definitely make the difference.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pocari79

Thanks for all the responses!!! Will definitely test out all the recommendations.

@schniggaz
I am not sure what my opponent's exact grixis control list was but it did have multiple True-Name Nemesis, some Jace, Mind Sculptors, Young Pyromancers, Gurmag Anglers, Dig Through Times, Dack Fayden and no Deathrites. Game 1 I pretty much just lost to a True-Name cause I couldn't stick a Liliana to kill it and Game 2 I tapped out for no good reason and got Blood Mooned even though I had an abrupt decay in hand and was thinking I should leave up mana for it.... I did have a basic forest in play and was waiting for a Mox Diamond to cast a decay but then he played a sideboard Null Rod and that was it. I did have the turn 0 leyline against him and he said after the game that it did cripple his deck so it seems like a legit card to board in if it makes an impact like that.

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+2 Leyline of the Void
+1 Reclamation Sage
+1 Engineered Plague
+1 Choke
+1 Golgari Charm
+1 Toxic Deluge (again: second Charm would be better to randomly destroy Blood Moon)

-3 Abrupt Decay (outside of Blood Moon, there is nothing you can really hit with it, Rec. Sage and two Charm should be good enough while being more versatile)
-1 Gaddock Teeg
-1 Life from the Loam
-1 Maze of Ith
-1 Liliana of the Veil

If his list is just a few cards different, sideboarding may change a lot.

@neddsaurus:

I would not board in the Tutor. There is not a single card that says: I win the game, so the card disadvantage is not worth it.
Otherwise, I do not like giving too many advices how to sideboard against 4c-Loam. Sorry :D

@schniggaz
Thanks for the sideboard suggestions!! I am very surprised that you would want to board out all the decays and just rely on Golgari Charm (which could be countered) to deal with Blood Moon. I understand that the charm can also be used to kill true names, young pyros and the 1/1 tokens but it just feels scary when a charm could get countered when you try to destroy a blood moon as a resolved blood moon feels like it's game over unless you have a couple of mox diamonds in play already.

To the people testing out Sulfur Elemental, how has it been?
My meta does not have Mentor Miracles, and I believe we have some tools to beat mentor against other Mentor decks.

How do you guys feel about one landers?

On one hand, I am pretty aggressive about mulling subpar hands. On the other hand I'm playing 28 lands now and if there is anything I'm favored to draw...

Would you guys keep these hands? Why/why not?

1) Bayou, Zenith, Bob, Decay, Pfire, Chalice

2) Wasteland, Mox, Chalice, Knight, Zenith, Decay, Loam

3) Fetch, Chalice, Knight, Decay, 2x Loam

4) Savannah, DRS, 2x Decay, Pfire, Thicket, Scooze


1) On the play, in the bind I'd be tempted to keep. I think the more disciplined decision is to mull here, but I can see myself trying it. On the draw they will have an easier time killing the arbor so I'd mull.
2) I could be talked into keeping on the play, but I think I'd mull. On the draw it is really close and I'm not sure what I'd do.
3) Pretty uncontroversial mull on the play or the draw. you either play magic or you don't with this hand.
4) The hand is fragile and doesn't have any huge reason to keep. I'd mull both on the play and the draw.

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Originally Posted by apocolyps6

How do you guys feel about one landers?

On one hand, I am pretty aggressive about mulling subpar hands. On the other hand I'm playing 28 lands now and if there is anything I'm favored to draw...

Would you guys keep these hands? Why/why not?

1) Bayou, Zenith, Bob, Decay, Pfire, Chalice On the Play I'd keep against a unknown opponent(would mull to RUG Delver for example). On the draw I think I keep against unknown opp, but would definitely tank for a while before I made my decision.

2) Wasteland, Mox, Chalice, Knight, Zenith, Decay, Loam Interesting hand... On the play I think I always keep. Mox (pitch waste)->GSZ for Arbor. On the draw I am also posed to keep since any land would make this hand a killer

3) Fetch, Chalice, Knight, Decay, 2x Loam Mull. You stated my reasons.

4) Savannah, DRS, 2x Decay, Pfire, Thicket, Scooze Mull. You stated my reasons.

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While we are at it, I had this hand last night against a (let's say) unknown opponent.

Badlands, 2x Fetch, Thicket, 2x Chalice, 1 Sylv Library

Would you keep it on the play? and on the draw?
I did on the play, would not kept on the draw

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pilhas

While we are at it, I had this hand last night against a (let's say) unknown opponent.

Badlands, 2x Fetch, Thicket, 2x Chalice, 1 Sylv Library

Would you keep it on the play? and on the draw?
I did on the play, would not kept on the draw

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I think I'd be hard pressed to find a scenario where I don't keep this. It's lacking in early game versatility, which could leave you broken versus some really shit strategies, but the hand is overall set to absolutely dominate the mid-late game. Unless I knew for sure that it was hard-countered by whatever my opponent is playing, I keep.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by apocolyps6

1) Bayou, Zenith, Bob, Decay, Pfire, Chalice
2) Wasteland, Mox, Chalice, Knight, Zenith, Decay, Loam
3) Fetch, Chalice, Knight, Decay, 2x Loam
4) Savannah, DRS, 2x Decay, Pfire, Thicket, Scooze

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1) Keep on the draw as you're already down to six and there's a lot worse things you can mull into. Mull on the draw because you're guaranteed to get shit on.
2) I would definitely pause at this one, but I'd be likely to keep because, even though it's a gamble, it's a gamble that's in your favor and you have the tools to get back into the fight even if you stumble.
3&4) Mull.

Hey guys,

wanted to chime in here. I'm a blue control mage normally (Miracles!! ;) ) but started to become interested in this deck.
I'm playing it now since around the time of the GP and I'm having a blast. The last two tournaments I attended went like this:

GrixisDelver 0:2
Death and Taxes 2:0
Miracles 2:1
Mirror 1:1:1
MUD 2:0

Top 8:

Omnitell 2:0
Esperblade 2:1
Mirror 2:0

Next tournament was in my hometown:

SneakShow 2:1
Mirror 1:1
Mentor Miracles 2:0
Omnitell 2:0 (we drew before, as it's a harder MU and we could both win last round to win the tournament still)
Esperblade 2:0


I was really happy with the deck, and two consecutive wins. I'm testing the deck a lot with a good friend and decided to change the sideboard a little. This is what I brought:

3 Leyline of the Void
2 Thoughtseize
2 Slaughter Games
2 Golgari Charm
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Choke
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

This setup is more generic than the "usual" board (-1 Sulfur Elemental, - 1 Engineered Plague for 1 Maelstrom Pulse and 1 Toxic Deluge).
There are quite some reasons I prefer these changes:

First being the flexibility of these Cards, being able to board them in in nearly all the midrange MU's i HUGE.
Moreover I prefer Deluge against Mentor. Sulfur can be played around and will just sit there doing nothing on his own, while the opponent might be able to kill you just with Mentor (top loop, cantrip digging and so on) or swords your Sulfur and begin from there.
This frees the Canonist slot for another Thalia, which I prefer in every combo-ish MU (just missing him vs Elves) and to further suppress control decks.

On another note, I don't like the Deathrite Shaman in the maindeck.
So often it's a dead topdeck (Chalice resolved beforehand) and I nearly never Zenith for Deathrite.
Usually it's Zenith for Arbor or Knight (and ofc your bears for the specific MU's).

I'm replacing it with a Quasali Pridemage atm but could see a 4th Decay or even something different work here, too!
What are your thoughts on this topic? Anyone made similiar experiences with Shaman?

I like these starthand questions :)

I'd keep 1 + 2 otP for sure and otD debatable; 3 are 4 mulls for me quite sure!

Greetings Johannes

Quote:

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Originally Posted by apocolyps6

How do you guys feel about one landers?

On one hand, I am pretty aggressive about mulling subpar hands. On the other hand I'm playing 28 lands now and if there is anything I'm favored to draw...

Would you guys keep these hands? Why/why not?

1) Bayou, Zenith, Bob, Decay, Pfire, Chalice

2) Wasteland, Mox, Chalice, Knight, Zenith, Decay, Loam

3) Fetch, Chalice, Knight, Decay, 2x Loam

4) Savannah, DRS, 2x Decay, Pfire, Thicket, Scooze

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It is really hard to ever really justify keeping 1 mana source hands in a deck with basically only 3 one drops.

1/2 I might keep this. It is very greedy and could go horribly wrong. I would be more likely to keep it on the play to insure I get to untap with at least 1 mana source. Getting wasted/bolted/dazed would really suck.
3 are not even close, definitely mull unless you know its a grindy matchup like miracles or something.
4 I would definitely keep this. The hand is nothing stellar but the average 6 you could draw is a lot worse.

Also, FYI, the difference between drawing a 2nd land after keeping a 1 land 7 card hard with 28 lands vs the normal 24 lands is 50% to 43%. A 7% difference isnt THAT much. Don't over value your your land count in your choice to keep bad hands. Also, I am guessing that like 8 of those 28 lands are Mazes, Wastes, cycle lands or otherwise not so useful lands so drawing those doesn't help much is a lot of situations.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pilhas

While we are at it, I had this hand last night against a (let's say) unknown opponent.

Badlands, 2x Fetch, Thicket, 2x Chalice, 1 Sylv Library

Would you keep it on the play? and on the draw?
I did on the play, would not kept on the draw

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I would keep this on the play or draw. It doesn't even really seem close to me. It has the perfect amount of land 3-4, you can fetch arbor if needed, you will be able to stick a chalice and then refill with library.

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Originally Posted by TheArchitect

4 I would definitely keep this. The hand is nothing stellar but the average 6 you could draw is a lot worse.

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I was initially tempted to "keep" this hand because two lands and a Deathrite Shaman is a mighty fine start, but the truth is that the hand has nothing going for it. Not even a gamble for "well if I draw X it becomes amazing!". Winning the bet and drawing X here only means you're still afloat. The lands are effectively mono-green and enable absolutely nothing that you have in hand or can potentially draw, you have no food for Deathrite Shaman even if he lives aside from whatever your opponent dumps or maybe Tranquil Thicket depending on the draws, and Tranquil Thicket being your second land ensures that you can't even cast the consolation-Scooze in time.

If this was a hand of six I'd probably be tempted to keep it since five cards really starts getting into iffy territory, but this is the opening seven. I've won countless games with ok mulls to 6, but I rarely find myself the victor in games where my master plan is to let my opponent freely flip cantrips and drop creatures without pressure for three turns.

I was actually thinking #4 was too easy a decision. As a modification to this,

#6: Savannah, DRS, Decay, Thicket, Scooze.

Bad 5. Would you go to 4?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by apocolyps6

I was actually thinking #4 was too easy a decision. As a modification to this,

#6: Savannah, DRS, Decay, Thicket, Scooze.

Bad 5. Would you go to 4?

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Keep.

It's likely a loss either way, but at least here I know I can present the concept of a fight.

Generally, if you look at a questionable hand of 7 and think "mull" but would keep the same hand minus the worst card if you had to mull to 6, you should have just kept the 7. I think people mull too often in legacy though. If you mulled to 6 and saw "Savannah, DRS, 2x Decay, Thicket, Scooze", would you keep that? I would definitely rather have that than 5 random cards.

I agree hand #4 is nothing great, but it can cast most of its spells, especially if the opponent fetches. The hand suddenly becomes amazing if it draws a land in the next 2 turns. Drawing into a lily, last decay or pfire are pretty much the only cards I would NOT want to see. I think it is better than the average 6 card hand.

I think you are not giving enough credit to the notion that your 6 can also be above average. Actually, 2 decent lands, Chalice, removal spell, 2x w.e is probably a better 6 than #4 and I would not say that it is above average.

There are 7s that are not keeps, but if you remove the worst card are just keepable 6s (30-40% in terms of quality). I think you have better odds mulling to 6.

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Originally Posted by zerzab11

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On another note, I don't like the Deathrite Shaman in the maindeck.
So often it's a dead topdeck (Chalice resolved beforehand) and I nearly never Zenith for Deathrite.
Usually it's Zenith for Arbor or Knight (and ofc your bears for the specific MU's).

I'm replacing it with a Quasali Pridemage atm but could see a 4th Decay or even something different work here, too!
What are your thoughts on this topic? Anyone made similiar experiences with Shaman?

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I still play the 1x Tarmogoyf from the 2014 BoM list in this slot, haha. I think QPM is probably fine here too.

Presented this one lander earlier today:

Bayou, Deathrite Shaman, Mox Diamond, Green Sun's Zenith, Dark Confidant, Gaddock Teeg, and Punishing Fire.

On the play, keep or mulligan?

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Originally Posted by Mono-Green

Presented this one lander earlier today:

Bayou, Deathrite Shaman, Mox Diamond, Green Sun's Zenith, Dark Confidant, Gaddock Teeg, and Punishing Fire.

On the play, keep or mulligan?

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You can green sun for dryd arbor so that's a good why. What deck did you meet? If I met Rug delver, mull but agansit strom keep.

Lets break this hand down a bit.

Bayou, Deathrite Shaman, Mox Diamond, Green Sun's Zenith, Dark Confidant, Gaddock Teeg, and Punishing Fire.

Mana:
Bayou, Deathrite Shaman, Mox Diamond, Green Sun's Zenith
Green sun can eventually become a threat rather than mana, but we are far from that atm. The mana takes up a lot of cards but there isn't much of it.

Threats/Answers:
Dark Confidant, Gaddock Teeg, and Punishing Fire
None of these cards are super great. Both Teeg and Pfire are somewhat situational.


I'd mull because there isn't really a compelling reason to keep this 7.

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Originally Posted by Mono-Green

Presented this one lander earlier today:

Bayou, Deathrite Shaman, Mox Diamond, Green Sun's Zenith, Dark Confidant, Gaddock Teeg, and Punishing Fire.

On the play, keep or mulligan?

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That is a very keepable hand. You can turn make mox and DRS. If they answer DRS you can GSZ for arbor. If they answer that as well, then you've had 3 turns to draw another a land so odds are you found one and can recover with Bob or whatever else you drew. If you drop DRS and then draw lands, then the GSZ can turn into a threat. This hand is above average vs combo or miracles. A bit below average vs delver and average vs midrange. In the blind, I would keep this. Vs a known delver deck I would mull this. Vs delver making land drops and sticking a knight are super important and if you can land an early chalice that's just gravy, but this hand does not play at all into that plan.

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I'd mull because there isn't really a compelling reason to keep this 7.

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I don't think this is a good reason to mull a hand. You are not always going to get god hands and there is no compelling reason to mull this hand vs an unknown matchup.


I really like these discussions about keeps vs mulls with this deck. It is nice when people have different approaches and ways of thinking about hands. With this deck it is super important too because without a pile of blue cantrips the contents of the opening hand and calculator the odds of drawing certain cards becomes super important.

On the opposite end of the spectrum from the 1-land hands... would people keep this hand?

Taiga, Mox Diamond, Tranquil Thicket, Grove of the Burnwillows, Windswept Heath , Life from the Loam, Gaddock Teeg

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Originally Posted by Seraphix

I think QPM is probably fine here too.

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For reference, I've been running Qasali Pridemage since forever and am quite content with it. It makes for a fine beater and its utility is always welcome.

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Originally Posted by TheArchitect

On the opposite end of the spectrum from the 1-land hands... would people keep this hand?

Taiga, Mox Diamond, Tranquil Thicket, Grove of the Burnwillows, Windswept Heath , Life from the Loam, Gaddock Teeg

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In a heartbeat.

Also, unless you truly fear getting Wastelanded out, dropping the Bayou as a regular land instead of pitching it to Mox Diamond should be the go-to play while on one land. Reason being that the chance of you drawing into something like Tranquil Thicket, Barren Moor, Wasteland, Maze of Ith, or Karakas is pretty significant, and the occurrence of such can leave you vigorously fucked unless you're able to transmute it into land via Mox Diamond.

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Originally Posted by TheArchitect

Taiga, Mox Diamond, Tranquil Thicket, Grove of the Burnwillows, Windswept Heath , Life from the Loam, Gaddock Teeg

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Yes. We have a thicket + loam engine going and that gets us our choice of lands turn after turn. We also easily can dredge through to a P-Fire to get that engine going as well. The Teeg may as well be a dead card in some matchups, but it's my second most frequent GSZ target following Dryad Arbor.

Also, going back to the Qasali Pridemage > Deathrite Shaman, I really like that option. I may try that out tonight if I feel like playing this deck (though its likely It'll be tossed aside until after Eternal Weekend for me to feel better about Blue decks). Very likely I'll be running this in the Invitational in 2 weeks, it seems great in an expected invitational meta, while much more risky in a 2 Losses removes you from contention event like Legacy Champs.

@TheArchitect

I think this is a philosophical difference. You need a reason to mull and I need a reason to keep.

The way I see it, I don't need all 7 cards to beat the average opponent. If I have a good 6 or even 5 I'm better off than an average 7. This is because cards like Chalice, Loam, Library, Punishing Fire, Wastelands, (and sometimes other cards but in more subtle ways) are good enough to make up for a 1-2 card disadvantage. In practice keeping that kind of hand for me has lead to close games I can win, but I feel the full force of not being a blue deck there. Mulling on the other hand is likely to increase the quality of my hand.

As for : Taiga, Mox Diamond, Tranquil Thicket, Grove of the Burnwillows, Windswept Heath , Life from the Loam, Gaddock Teeg

I'd keep. I'd probably do something like Mox, fetch, loam T1 and expect to draw, cantrip and play the best 2drop on turn 2. Not exactly the god hand but potentially very powerful if I draw a Pfire, Wasteland, Mox, or just any high quality 2drop.

About playing Mox vs Bayou in the other hand, if you play bayou you are potentially cutting yourself off from both Gaddock Teeg, and Punishing Fire. If your opponent is playing 1 mana removal/LD of any kind you are in trouble. 2 removal spells and you are playing of the top of your deck. If keeping is the "conservative" line here and mulling is the "aggressive" then not playing the mox is even more aggressive. Betting on a land in the top 2 +more good card is riskier than just getting a new 6 IMO.

I would also keep:

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Taiga, Mox Diamond, Tranquil Thicket, Grove of the Burnwillows, Windswept Heath, Life from the Loam, Gaddock Teeg

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I was just curious what peoples thoughts on the slow all-in on loam hands were.

However I would play this differently from apocolyps6, and I believe this the correct opening line here. Actually lead with fetch and pass. EOT crack fetch and cycle thicket, if they waste their turn stifling our excess land that actually a big win for us. Loam turn 1 doesn't do much since we already have all the mana producing lands we need. If it was a 2 land, mox hand this would be excellent line though. But cycling thicket turn 1 increases our odds of drawing something better to do on turn 2 (knight, lily, chalice, etc) but puts us in the same place if the plan is just to loam since you can on turn 2 play the mox, and loam back (now 3) lands AND cycle thicket again to maximize drawing good stuff.

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Originally Posted by apocolyps6

About playing Mox vs Bayou in the other hand, if you play bayou you are potentially cutting yourself off from both Gaddock Teeg, and Punishing Fire.

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One third of the average deck's land base is dedicated to fluff that won't bail you out while "Wasteland -> go" is one of the worst blind openers on the draw. Your Bayou has little to fear while leading with a Mox Diamond cuts your odds of being able to live significantly. With that in mind, the play should be Bayou - >Green Sun's Zenith for Dryad Arbor. Pass turn, and hope that they don't have or don't use removal...

If they kill the Arbor, you you're on land-or-lose. The same position you would be in if they killed a mana dork that was cast with Mox Diamond.

If they don't kill your Dryad Arbor but you don't draw a land, casting Dark Confidant has to be the priority and so being able to cast Punishing Fire or Gaddock Teeg doesn't really matter.

If they kill the Arbor and you draw a land, you win the war while the Mox Diamond play only wins the war if that land was in the 66%.

In none of the relevant scenarios does first turn Mox Diamond come out ahead. It even loses in terms of mind-games. A hand that leads with Mox Diamond and no land drop is a most deafening telegraph.


All of that being said, I do think keeping that particular hand is an exceptionally risky plan withtoo little payoff and shouldn't be attempted. Also, it's worth noting that I'm typing this on my phone and that the above was all written with "being on the play" in mind since being on the draw is just begging for a slaughter.

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Originally Posted by TheArchitect

I was just curious what peoples thoughts on the slow all-in on loam hands were.

However I would play this differently from apocolyps6, and I believe this the correct opening line here. Actually lead with fetch and pass. EOT crack fetch and cycle thicket, if they waste their turn stifling our excess land that actually a big win for us. Loam turn 1 doesn't do much since we already have all the mana producing lands we need. If it was a 2 land, mox hand this would be excellent line though. But cycling thicket turn 1 increases our odds of drawing something better to do on turn 2 (knight, lily, chalice, etc) but puts us in the same place if the plan is just to loam since you can on turn 2 play the mox, and loam back (now 3) lands AND cycle thicket again to maximize drawing good stuff.

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Agreed with this. Different on the draw of course, but this is the proper opening sequence while on the play. +/- casting Mox Diamond regardless based on intuition or gut feeling.

There is some merit to casting the Loam first, but I feel it would be better under slightly different circumstances.