I don't know why people compare this thing to clique. The only similarities is the power toughness and the cmc.Quote:
Originally Posted by luckme10
The two cards serve completely different purposes. If anything, this guy replaces geists.
Printable View
I don't know why people compare this thing to clique. The only similarities is the power toughness and the cmc.Quote:
Originally Posted by luckme10
The two cards serve completely different purposes. If anything, this guy replaces geists.
It'll replace clique's because they're fighting for the 3cc spot and I have thoughtseizes for discard and jace for... well jace.
As for Geist, I'm not running it. There's a decent amount of aggro in my meta.
It's not going to replace Geist. It's an alternative to Geist, but I think Geist will maintain it's slots in the metagames it's good in. Six damage is nothing to sneer at when it has a comparable ability in Hexproof. Yeah, it's a weaker ability to protection: Player, but it's comparable in function and more aggressive in that it's double the damage if it all connects, and +1 if Geist doesn't and just the Angel does.
-ABC
The problem with that logic is that Nemesis is still good in the match ups where Geist is good and great in the match ups where Geist is awful, Jund etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
I'll take any bet that Nemesis Man will destroy the Bazaar of Moxen event. I'm sure anyone who's done some commited testing would agree.
Remember when everyone bashed Jace back when he was spoiled? Or Tarmogoyf went for $3 for weeks? Same thing with this guy. It cannot be untrue anyway, since this my post #1000.
He's probably already on the watch list for bannings too, due to 1.) his stupid powerlevel 2.) he just ends interaction
Requiring double U is harder to come up with than WU in a world with wastelands. I agree True-Name Nemesis is a problem. Honestly, I don't know whether to buy four or not simply because I have a sinking feeling. Will it be banned or will it be the next Goyf? I'm seriously hoping for banned. I don't want to have to put my 4th Terminus in Miracles simply because of this dude. Also, I honestly feel that 5 board wipes won't be enough after this guy gets going in any given metagame...Time to pull out the ol' Innocent Bloods.
-ABC
I would be shocked if they banned it. This card won't be any more prevalent than Tarmogoyf circa 2007. Prices will be another issue. It rubs me wrong that they'd release a card of this caliber solely on a limited edition print run. Expect to see round 1 scavenging ooze prices levels immediately.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
Double blue is not harder to come up with than WU for us. Because of Jace, our manabase is already designed to run double blue.
1UU is much easier to cast than 1UW. You can play him in any blue-centric deck (AKA: almost everywhere). Nemesis isn't even Legendary and pretty much invalidates Geist IMO. Taking away 2 power from Geist for Protection from Creatures fixes a lot of issues. Basically, you no longer have to play blue + white, or green to play geist or mongoose, and you no longer have to build your deck around them either (Threshold for Mongoose and removal heavy for Geist). Nemesis is static and has a lot of potential with equipments and exalted triggers. I think Nemesis will shift the metagame considerably and will find a home in Bant/BUG/Blade decks where he benefits greatly from Exalted triggers, SFM packages, mana acceleration, and can protect a Jace or an Elspeth from most ground assaults. We all know how good Progenitus was in Bant when it was allowed to use it, well now it's getting it back cost-efficient style.
I also think UWR Blade decks will be quite happy with Nemesis and will probably play 3-4 copies. They are strict upgrades from Clique for most scenarios as well because they are impervious to removal, and unblockable > flying. Clique being Flash is what makes her have synergy with this deck, and that's only a small portion of what makes her good. Cliques cycling ability is good as well and has plenty of fringe applications but as I mentioned in another post, she would still see play in Blade decks even if she remained exactly the same minus her cycling ability. Cliques ability is not what makes her great in our deck, its the combination of 3 evasive power for 3 mana with flash that makes her an excellent equipment carrier, PW hoser, and Mongoose/Geist blocker amongst other things. Nemesis also effectively replaces Strix in the defensive role where you trade the cantrip ability for a relevant body. He provides similar defensive capabilities with increased offensive ones. The main difference between Geist and Nemesis is that the latter doesn't need any support to help you stabilize or threaten your opponent, and offers the same kind of problem-solving abilities and synergy. OH and yeah.... Nemesis is not legendary so you can have more than 1 in play, which can degenerate quite fast.
I imagine a 4 SFM/3 Snap/3 Nemesis shell being in every Blade Control deck with red as the most prolific complementary color for some of the best Snapcaster targets (Bolts) and the most important metagame SB card that will become REB/Pyroblast. They are the cheapest and most efficient way to counter an opposing Nemesis. We will also see various Delver/Nemesis deck combinations that will adopt SFM, Goyf, or Pyromancer for instance to best complete their threat package. Cards like Supreme Verdict, Terminus, and Pernicious Deed will find their way in the 75s of every decks that can support them.
Looking at the way the meta is evolving with the printing of some of our latest legacy staples, I am quite disgusted by BUG combinations. Not only they have this 1 CMC PW in the form of DRS, the nastiest power creep known to magic in the form of Goyf, the hardest and most versatile removal ever printed in the form of Abrupt Decay, the latest unmanageable value card in the form of Shardless Agent, some ridiculous cantrips that put your opponent to a full stop in the form of Baleful Strix, but now they get the most non-interactive creature ever printed with a decent body. And that's all without mentioning some of the old broken cards they have access to, namely Hymn to Tourach and Jace...
If only Nemesis had a different mana cost or color such as 1RR, it might not be as broken... Or, you know, make it a 2/1 at least so it only sees play in Merfolk and not in every damn blue deck that wants to win with a creature.
@Qweerios:
A few days ago, we were discussing the possibility of relying less on the graveyard. When lowering the number of Snapcaster Mages, the problem with UWr Blade was that we don't have good creatures to carry equipment, like Esper Blade does. Would Nemesis work there? Something like 4 SFM 4 Nemesis 1 SCM 2 Clique 1 Elspeth, with 3 RiPs post board to hose GY strategies?
Yes of course. I think Nemesis is a definite 1-3of for Blade decks as he acts as an autonomous Geist. I am also all for the RiP plan postboard. The best way I found is to simply carry on with a regular Blade deck and pack 3 GY-dependant cards mainboard and 3 RiP sideboard so that I can interchange them when I wish to overlook GY interactions. Usually those 3 cards are Snapcasters or a combination of 2 Snapcasters and a Crucible.Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTylerGalt
More often than not, the cards you want to actually discard are best and most reliably answered with a Spell Snare, Pierce, or hard Counterspell. Most cards you simply do not want hitting play tend to be at 2CMC such as Strix, SFM, Snap, RiP (for some versions), Counterbalance, etc. For all the matchups packing any of these cards, Discard is commonly a very short term form of answer. Spell Pierce is most effective early on to guarantee safe development and converts into bigger windows of opportunity against other cards you would prefer answered preemptively such as Planeswalkers. Of course there are cards like Shardless Agent and Bloodbraid elf that you would prefer discarded but I don't think discard is a reliable answer for those cards at all. If anything, any form of board presence that you can muster up, and somehow get value out of, will counteract cascade dorks. Snapcaster, SFM, and Strix are great examples. Blade Control isn't exactly the best deck at acquiring a board position, therefore capitalizing on discard is more difficult.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tombstalker
I won't deny that discard is probably some of our best T1 plays, and that this deck doesn't have very many T1 plays outside of discard. However, I don't think this type of disruption is where I want to be, and not having any alternatives as having a thing such as a T1 play doesn't warrant the inclusion of what I see as a diluted game plan. In short, I prefer having no T1 plays at all if it means that I have to shift away from reactive answers at 1CMC to proactive disruption at 1CMC. As with any control deck, I believe the best thing you can do with your early turns is develop a sturdy manabase.Quote:
Originally Posted by luckme10
As far as "having to protect SFM" goes, I don't really care about backing him up with a Spell Pierce or a FoW per se. I simply believe that if you should protect your SFM, counterspells is the way to do it. When an opponent removes my SFM after I fetched an equipment, the first thing that occurs to me is that I have won on card exchanges. If my deck is built accordingly, and my plays are sequenced properly I should be able to make use of that extra card I have just profited. When it comes down to which line of play I prefer adopting under considerable pressure (meaning that T2 SFM is a priority), I prefer taking the reactive approach where I intend on answering the initial onslaught with a card such as a sweeper or making my way back into a game with a Planeswalker rather than relying on a tight sequence of plays involving T1 discard, and T2 SFM which may or may not be enough in most cases at thwarting my opponent's plays and has a very small window of opportunity to begin with.
An argument can be made about the necessity of hand information. It is as theoretically valuable as it is worthless at times. I think that the more experience you have with the format (which is to say a lot) the less hand information is appealing. I won't argue against the worth of hand information, rather against its necessity. This may affect the weight of hand information of the balance of discard vs. counterspells.
For me, playing Blade Control has nothing to do with landing a T2 SFM, it is simply something I can do when the situation is proper. As a control deck, I see SFM as a permanent mitigation tool against swarms, creature-centric strategies, and a resilient win condition against other control decks. I don't view SFM as a T2 play at all, in fact I don't think the pace of the game should be dictated by us before a Jace hits the field, because that's what playing a reactive deck is all about. You react to your opponent's plays until he has no more, and then you slowly take over while consistently answering any play your opponent can make, until your opponent succumbs. What you gain with discard you slowly have to make up as the game progresses.
My apologies for the double post.
So continuing my endeavor to get more people into the format im now working on helping another brother get started and hes looking at control since what hes traditionally played could losely be defined as such.
Anyway im thinking of something along the lines of 'Nemesis Blade' control, or else miracles. Here I would need some assistance.
It seems from playing against each respective lists that miracles is the more powerful or more control oriented deck but far more durdley while blade control seems more aggressive but hinges more upon the success of SFM. Would this be a fair assessment? Im sure theres more to it than that though so any insight would be helpful.
Im considering helping him build a UWr shell along the lines of the lightning blade lists starting with something like this:
4 stoneforge mystic
4 true name nemesis
2-3 snapcasters/geist/clique/?
3 blades (SoFaI, BS, jitte)
8 spot removal (StP/bolts)
jaces, counterspells, cantrips, lands
From there im not sure if any sweepers are appropriate to include main and if so whats conventional wisdom, i.e. verdict or EE or clasm maybe?
That seems legit. I wouldnt run any sweeper main if youre going UWr, if you have both stp and lb that isnt needed. I am testing nemesis in my esper stoneblade replacing Lingering Souls and a V Clique- seems promising so far.
Did anybody saw this list? Looks interesting at least - though it won't have alot of merit to play/tech it now with Nemesis approaching...
http://www.starcitygames.com/events/...de_with_j.html
Greetings
I saw that Deck Tech. He has a lot of cool innovations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einherjer
I like Misdirection. I've wanted to try it in a Blade deck since I saw Joe Lossett playing 3 FoW / 1 Misdirection in his Miracles deck. I'm not sure playing TWO Misdirections MD is where you want to be, though... Especially when you don't have that much permanents to protect in the first place. I think Misdirection would be better in a list with more creatures. Maybe 4 FoW / 1 Misdirection split?
I also like Flusterstorm, but 2 maindeck seems like too much... Flusterstorm is dead in some matchups... I would go with 2 Spell Pierce or a split of 1 Flusterstorm / 1 Spell Pierce.
A friend of mine plays U/w Miracles with Back to Basics maindeck. It's pretty effective. But 3 maindeck seems like a lot, especially against decks that play a lot of basics... But it might be good if you don't have access to Blood Moon because you prefer the black splash.
Negate is cool, but if you are going to splash Black, you might as well play Countersquall. And, like Misdirection and Flusterstorm, it might be dead against some matchups :/
I've been thinking about upping the number of maindeck Supreme Verdict. The problem I have with that card, is that it sometimes takes you too long to get to 4 mana (e.g. against tempo decks that stifle your fetchlands, or fast aggro-combo decks like elves...). I think we need to find a way to stall our opponent's mana development, or a way to accelerate our spells. Chrome Mox or Mox Diamond are an option, but I've been considering Sapphire Medallion too... It lets you cast:
- Supreme Verdict for UWW
- Jace for 1UU
- Snapcaster Mage for U
- True-Name Nemesis for UU
- Clique for UU
- Geist for UW
- Venser for 1UU
- Intuition for 1U
- Accumulated Knowledge for U
- Repeal for 1 less
AJ Sacher experimented with the card a few months ago ( http://www.starcitygames.com/article...Intuition.html ). I think his version is a little too "durdly": you draw tons of cards but you don't really have a fast way to kill your opponent or improve your board presence. Maybe we need to remove the Intuition / AK engine for more threats or a SFM Package?
A few months ago, I remember seeing a couple of esper control lists do well with maindeck deathrite shamans. I've played with said version once before, and it's either a hit or miss. It smooths out the curve nicely but the problem I had with it is that there wasn't anything I really wanted to ramp into. Sure a turn 2 lingering souls was nice and a turn 3 Jace, but otherwise it was rather meh. Helped against delver decks. Naturally you lose a lot of power as a control deck though, since you have to cut 1 of's that are quite good: supreme verdict, ponder, engineered explosives, etc. With the printing of Nemesis, perhaps this is an idea worth looking back into?
After playing everything else, I'm finally starting to pick up Esper Stoneblade, as it contains my 3 favorite colors and gives me access to my favorite card of all time: Vindicate. I don't know why it took so long for me to jump on.
So, what's wracking my brain is: why did this deck fall out of favor? Abrupt Decay? Deathrite Shaman? Shardless Agent running around?
It's all 3. Decay kills your jittes/swords; Deathrite negates one of the main card advantage engines of the deck (snapcaster); and shardless agent just gives more card advantage than this deck does.
It is and always has been one of the best decks in the format. U have all the tools u need. I dont see why some pple would say that Shardless bug is better. Its such a greedy deck and auto loses to like a single moon effect. Also esper has a great combo match up. Nice to see u pick up the deck, it is very skill rewarding.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle
I really like Michael Bernat's list from the invitational.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=60172
With so many shardless bug and tempo running rampant in my metagame, baleful strix is the silver bullet for this deck. If they destroy it, you are still a card ahead.
I did cut some of his discards for more lingering souls though. What can i say, i just love that card :tongue:
I also like some of his ideas.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike1987
I wonder why he plays 4 Kor Firewalkers, though... Does he really hate Burn? Submerge is also rarely seen in Esper Blade sideboards. I'm not sure about the 1-of Flusterstorm maindeck, but hey, I play a Misdirection maindeck :)
I also wonder if he plays 2 Jaces instead of 3 for availability reasons, or if he prefers to lower his curve. I've been considering going down to 2 Jaces, but I'm not sure if that's the right play...
Here is what I am considering for tonight:
// Artifact [4]
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sensei's Divining Top
// Creature [10]
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Baleful Strix
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
// Instant [15]
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
// Sorcery [5]
1 Ponder
1 Lingering Souls
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Thoughtseize
// Planeswalker [3]
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
// Lands [23]
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
2 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
// Sideboard [15]
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Sword of Feast and Famine
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Notion Thief
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Darkblast
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 1 Zealous Persecution
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Supreme Verdict
I was considering a 24th land to ensure my land drops against tempo decks, but I will try 23 lands + 1 Ponder + 1 Sensei's Divining Top. Ponder and SdT let me find lands in the early game, and powerful 1-of's in the late game... I'm trying a split of discard and counterspells. Instead of playing the usual 2 Inquisition of Kozilek / 2 Thoughtseize, I play only 2 Thoughtseize, and play more counterspells. That way, I still have a few discard spells against combo :)
The Lingering Souls might be better as a 4th Strix or a 2nd Snapcaster. I had to reduce the number of creatures to play Supreme Verdict maindeck... I also want to move the 4th FoW to the maindeck, but I don't know what to cut. Maybe go down to 2 Jaces?
I think I will also play Blade Control at the BoM, with True-Name Nemesis. I'm not yet sure if I want to play Esper Blade for Strix + Discard + Toxic Deluge or Patriot with a small red splash for Pyroblast / Blood Moon.
I like ur list. I will also be playing Blade Control at BoM. Going forward I'm looking to play something like 4stoneforge,4snapcaster,3 TNN as creature base. Basically I am replacing my Lingering Souls(3) for TNN. Im not sure TNN and Baleful Strix belong in the same list as TNN probably does a better job at that. I would rather have more snapcasters to gain value and be better against combo decks. I have tested 2 Toxic Deluge SB and I really like them so far. Apart from maybe hitting a snapcaster of your own the card is really good, especially when u dont play with Lingering Souls anymore. Also I prefer TNN in UWB Blade then in UWR,although there is something to say for being able to play blood moon.. Greetz-
Thanks :)Quote:
Originally Posted by rancOr_
I'm going to play the devil's advocate here... But why do you prefer TNN in Esper Blade? I would think that it would be better in UWr, since it solves one of the problems of the red splash: the lack of good creatures to carry equipment. Esper Blade lists can play Lingering Souls and/or Baleful Strix, which means they have many great equipment carriers alongside Stoneforge Mystic, Snapcaster Mage, Clique, and Venser. The red splash only gives you Grim Lavamancer, which is not that great, so you often end up playing only blue and white creatures... With the printing of TNN, the red splash now has a very good equipment carrier, which makes it comparatively better. As a thought experiment, if TNN ends up being superior to Baleful Strix / Lingering Souls, then both splashs will have the same creature base of 4 SFM 4 Snapcaster 4 TNN, and they will then be compared across other dimensions (instants, sorceries, SB cards...).
Also, the Red splash has REB / Pyroblast to counter TNN against Merfolk and in the mirror match :)
That said, I think I will go with Esper, because I love Toxic Deluge and all the SB options ^^
My red splash does not run any TNN because red has an additional creature that other splashes don't have: Grim Lavamancer. A creature base of: 4 Sfm, 3 Clique, 3 Grim and 4 Snapcasters is more than enough. Also, red gives you bolt which makes playing a full set of Snapcasters worth while.
TNN takes the 3 drop slot so I will have to cut some cliques or Snapcasters to fit it. I don't see that happening because the red splash already dominates the creature matchups. Between grim, bolts, Stp and Snapcaster, mid range and aggro will get torched. TNN is not at all necessary.
Plus Clique really helps against the combo matchups which the red versions have a harder time against.
I forgot to mention that I am on the Rest in Peace SB plan, which means I try to minimize graveyard dependency in the maindeck to avoid anti-synergies when I bring in RiP post-board. With that in mind, red does not give me any good creatures, and I am left with blue and white creatures (SFM, SCM, Clique, Venser, Restoration Angel...). The black splash gives you Baleful Strix, Dark Confidant, Deathrite Shaman, and Lingering Souls (those last two have a GY dependency).Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanpei
Also, when I tried Lavamancer in the past, I felt like it was hard to feed with this deck, since you don't play that many cantrips, and it also competes with your Snapcaster Mages. When I tried it, it didn't do much: if I play it T1 to prevent a T1 Deathrite Shaman, my opponent just refrains from playing creatures until he can kill it with it with a Decay / Bolt... When I wait for my opponent to play a threat before casting it, my opponent gets to untap with a Shaman / Confidant. But maybe I'm playing it wrong.
On another note, I went 3-1 with Esper StrixBlade yesterday at my local.
I played the list I posted above, with some small changes:
MD:
+1 Snapcaster Mage
-1 Supreme Verdict
SB:
+1 Blue Elemental Blast
+1 Path to Exile
-1 Zealous Persecution
-1 Cabal Therapy
I forgot to put the Verdict in the deck instead of the SCM before the tournament. It would have helped against the Elves MU.
I didn't play Cabal Therapy. I felt that it was better in Esper Blade lists that play 4+ other discard spells. Since I only play 2 Thoughtseize, it's less powerful.
I didn't have a Zealous Persecution. I sorely missed it against Elves. It would have also been good for the Storm matchup (to kill his goblins), though I won without it.
Going forward, I want to play either a second E.E. MD, or a Supreme Verdict.
// Sideboard [15]
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Sword of Feast and Famine
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Notion Thief
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Darkblast
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 1 Zealous Persecution
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Supreme Verdict
[/cards]
Round 1 - Food Chain / Griffin combo - 2-0
Round 2 - Weird MUD - 2-0
Round 3 - Elves - 0-2
He overwhelmed me both games, and I didn't find my answers (E.E., Verdict...). I had a Jitte in G1, but no flying creature to equip it
Round 4 - TES - 2-0
I cast Thoughtseize in both games. I would have lost if those were Spell Pierce, since he had tons of mana.
G1 I knew he was on Storm. We both mulled to 6, and I found FoW + Spell Pierce, then later Snapcaster + Clique + Thoughtseize.
G2 I mulled to 6 and kept Thoughtseize, SFM * 2, lands * 3. He probed me T1 but was uneable to combo off. My T1 Thoughtseize slowed him down enough for me to draw counterspells. At some point I had a board of SFM and Clique equipped with SoFaF. He attempted to combo off, but I disrupted is plan with counters, and he was forced to wish for Diminishing Returns to try to go off again the next turn. During my turn, I had a devious plan. Since he had one card in hand, and my attack wouldn't have been letal, I declined to attack with the SoFaF-equipped Clique, pinging him simply with SFM. He thanked me for giving him a little hope, but was a little worried. On his turn, he casts Diminishing Returns. I respond with Notion Thief :) GG.
Ended up 3-1 (5th out of 30). I sadly didn't get any prize :( I think first got Underground Sea (Revised), second got Jace, and third some 40-50€ card which I forgot.
I'm still on Vidi's list and I think I'm just going to go -3 Lingering Souls, +3 True-Name Nemesis. Both are 3cc Sorcery-speed spells that you can either use defensively or offensively and both are difficult to "kill". I like that True-Name Nemesis makes us slightly less reliant on the graveyard while upping our blue count for FoW.
When do you side out / side in Equipment?
At the BoM Trial today, I sided out Jitte for SOFAF against RUG Delver and MUD.
Against RUG, my reasoning was that SOFAF gives protection from Green, allowing me to kill Goyf and Goose, or attack through them. After the round (which I won 2-0, without seeing any SFM / Equipment), he told me that Jitte is very good against him due to the life gain / Delver killing ability.
The MUD player also told me that Jitte is very good against him, since it can kill Revoker, Metalworker, and Lodestone Golem...
Do you side SOFAF in only against combo and control? Do you ever side out Batterskull? Do you sometimes side all 3 in?
I only side in SoFaF when Jitte is dead to the matchup at hand. Jitte is better than any sword vs. RUG because it kills Delver, gains life, puts your creatures out of Bolt range after one connection. Jitte deters your opponent from swining with his threats if he doesn't have a blocker available.
How do you define "dead to the matchup at hand"? If the opponent is playing any amount of creatures, you keep Jitte in? Or when you need the lifegain (e.g. burn)? For example, would you keep Jitte versus Miracles, since it plays a few Clique / Snapcaster?Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
A corollary of my question would be: which do you fetch first? For example, against RUG, do you grab Batterskull or Jitte with your first SFM? If you grab BS, they can just kill the SFM to strand it in your hand, or Stifle the germ token...
I pretty much almost never bring Jitte out. Even when it's not backbreaking to an opponent, it still makes all of our crappy little guys a ridiculous threat.
I think I didn't have enough bodies for Jitte to be really effective. I'm going to up the number of creatures for today's main event at the BoM :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
I side out Jitte vs. dedicated control and combo. Miracle's creatures are residual value, they don't actually care if you remove them. Against RUG it depends on if you can protect the skull or not.
Punishing fire.Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTylerGalt
Thoughts on straight UW again now that TNN is out? One of the biggest reasons for Esper was Lingering Souls, but TNN seems as good/better than Souls at inevitability, defense, Equip-carrier.
I was thinking about going back to straight UW as well. The only concern I have in dropping red (and possibly also black because of Zealous Persecution) is that we lose SB cars that are very strong against several of Stoneblade's weaknesses, namely:Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
- Jace;
- Weenie decks playing exclusively on board, like Maverick and the coming-back Death and Taxes, where Sulfur Elemental is absurd;
- A solution to Counterbalance, Geist, True-Name Nemesis-again, in the form of REB;
[- fast sweeper in the form of Pyroclasm.]
- A hard counter for Show and Tell.
While managing creatures is still doable in a different way via a mix of EEs and Supreme Verdict, I fear REB is hardly replaceable. If we deckbuild exclusively basing on important results by the last tournaments, though, such as BoM Paris and SCGs, REB's presence doesn't appear to be that mandatory, given all this flurry of ANTs, Elves and DnTs.
This very fact should lead us to notice something else: decks that are more likely to be successful are those based on very fast interactions, thus Jace, as much as he is strong, can be leveraged down to 2 copies maindeck now, with the third possibly in the sideboard. Broad removal aforementioned, on exchange, could provide a good MD configuration apt to fight the hordes of creatures. That SCG deckcheck featuring Stoneblade with 4 Verdicts had already got an intuition of the latest metagame shift, but imo that list was too much metagamed with narrow cards and definitely lacking on all-around good cards like Snap and Clique, which are tailor-made for this deck on many levels.
This is what I would play going straight UW.
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
6 Island
3 Plains
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins
-22-
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
-12-
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Supreme Verdict
-8-
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Sensei's Divining Top
-6-
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
-2-
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
-10-
Sideboard:
3 Flusterstorm
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Rest in Peace
[1 Surgical Extraction]
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Back to Basics
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Disenchant
[Other options: Venser, 2nd Disenchant, Pithing Needle, Entreat the Angels, Unexpectedly Absent..]
This sounds kinda old-school, pre-Delver era, although with the evergood RIP in sideboard.
Some notes:
- Manabase as smooth as possible. The minimum number of dual lands possible, the maximum of basics avaiable. This boosts solidity. I'm willing to lose to Punishing Fire, odds that Wasteland is going to solve the problem are tremendously low anyways. Academy Ruins is necessary, though.
- 10 counters may be excessive, but it gives a wide array of options, good resilience to spell-based combo decks md and play a sort of draw-go feeling in the first turns, which is where we eant to be. Snare is necessary to stop CB, Dark Confidant, and so on. Maybe a CSpell could be cut to favor an additional cantrip, which would strenghten the sideboard as well.
- SB is kinda balanced to fight combo more than creature since we are already putting our eggs there quite a bit from game 1. Back to Basics could be as cute as ineffective, and I highly suspect so. I'd just rather add more proactive cards or bombs; a couple of Entreat the Angels could also be thought against BGx grindy decks by tweaking MD a bit in order to reach 2 Tops.
I feel this deck could fight everything, yet struggling every fucking time because it doesn't provide uber-broken synergies or tremendous sequences hardly manageable by good portion of the format (as Shardless and Jund often do). It's still the best reactive deck in terms of balance and capability to switch roles as well as solidity and curve, so it may be worth a shot.
EDIT: I still think True Name Nemesis is not suited for Stoneblade conceived as the tradition "control-aggro" version which tries to peak in Jace and winning mainly by outresourcing the opponent. It is more suited for "light" versions ft. Delver, as Patriot is, or where you can accelerate into playing it on t2 via Hierarch or Shaman (Bant, Deathblade). By itself it doesn't solve any of the previous weak spots, except maybe for being the only dork that survives PFire against Jund.
I think TNN is perfect for Stoneblade. I'm running Esper with 4 Basics and 23 lands that gives me a pretty stable mana base. TNN is the perfect equipment carrier, is strong on defense, can effortlessly pressure the opponent's life total or PWs, and can on its own beat Jund or Shardless BUG, both decks that are tough match-ups.
I think straight UW with a lot of counters is just not right for the format because you're not really doing anything good enough. Miracles does that job better and some variants already have Stoneforge in them.
I can see red being an okay splash, but I think it's behind UWR Delver in terms of effectiveness.
Deathblade is better off as Shardless BUG probably.
The complementary pieces of Strix, TNN, Souls, and discard I think fit best with Stoneblade as a control deck as it can be proactively strong when need be without losing effectiveness as a control deck.
Blade Control decks, even harkening back to the days of Standard Cawblade dominance, always had a "Squadron Hawk" type spell to provide an evasive offensive Equip-carrier that was inefficient for the opponent to kill while at the same time providing defense if you're on the Jace-ultimate plan. Squadron Hawk -> Spellstutter Sprite -> Lingering Souls. The next spell to slot in that role is TNN, no? Or is a "Squadron Hawk" type spell no longer needed for SFM-Jace decks to compete? Against fair decks, Souls is incredible at advancing our gameplan... can't TNN replace Souls while providing a bit more offensive beef?
I switched to esper blade as my main deck roughly two months ago since I enjoy playing it so much, and am still undecided on whether TNN fits in the lingering souls slot. I think TNN is inherently more powerful, but lingering souls is also huge in a lot of scenarios. If you are hard-pressed to resolve a Jace and/or are stuck on 3 mana, running out souls against a possible daze is great. It also plays VERY nicely with supreme verdict, which many lists run 2 of (1 in the main, 1 in the board). Another slight problem I have with TNN is that fetching basics in the early game becomes a lot more tricky. I've had quite a few games where you want to fetch a swamp for a T1 discard spell, and then T2 fetch plains for stoneforge mystic. This leaves you with no way of casting TNN up until turn 4 if you have 2 blue lands afterwards. It seems marginal, but I've found these lines of play to be very relevant, and which play nicely with lingering souls.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
TNN does provide a higher blue count, and carries equipment like a boss so not sure how I feel about it. It also lets us run RIP without much care as it only hits snapcaster. I'll do some testing once I get a hold of TNN, but the switch doesn't seem as clear cut as some make it out to be. It lends itself to a slightly more aggressive version of esper control, IMO.
These are exactly my findings while testing TNN. I play with 10fetches 4basics and I always try to get basics first. I had quite alot of games where I -as u mentioned had to fetch t1 swamp and didnt get to double UU on turn 3; while I could have access to it turn 4. This can be quite awkward as u dont want to get wasted either while fetching a dual the first few turns. Thus I agree that a UWr shell is probably the best for TNN(if you would play it. Atm im not convinced its that good in uwb. I tested it replacing the 3 Lingering Souls but it just doesnt seem right at times...) I would consider a light red splash for EE on 3 and maybe some SB rebs. They are just too good with snapcaster to ignore. I have played alot of UWx Stoneforge in the past. Dropping the discard isnt that bad as it may seem at first sight because playing reactive instead of proactive actually fits snapcaster way better. I will test with a UWr shell (4snapcaster,4sfm,3TNN).Quote:
Originally Posted by ac3eb