[Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JackaBo

I think you need to dedicate slots to fight control. Yes, you're better positioned (compared to grixis and bug) thanks to Goose. But im not sure it's enough. I used to run sylvan, winter orb and 2x TNN in the board. Sometimes i even ran loam. Mandrills is good versus push and decay but actually worse than goyf vs swords to plowshares.

---

They both get bopped by swords, this is not really an important consideration.

I agree that no anti-control cards seems rough (and with only mongoose as shroud creatures this will make the lands matchup harder)
I don't like Submerge as an answer for Marit Lage because good opponents will always play around it as much as possible by not playing Forests (e.g. I think the GB Turbo lists are playing Blooming Marsh specifically for this reason)
I think if you aren't playing Goyf (so you don't care about different card types and therefore aren't interested in Seal of Fire or Tarfire) then Dead/Gone is a good card, it's better at answering DRS than Submerge (I don't mind boarding in 1 Forked Bolt vs DRS decks even though I expect it to be Sorcery Shock a lot of the time).

Also props to 'TBR87' on modo for going 5-0 with the Honden tech

Creature (11)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf
Sorcery (4)
4 Ponder
Instant (25)
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
Enchantment (1)
1 Seal of Fire
Land (18)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
Tribal instant (1)
1 Tarfire
60 Cards

Sideboard (15)
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Destructive Revelry
1 Dismember
2 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ground Seal
1 Honden of Infinite Rage
1 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
1 Rough // Tumble
1 Surgical Extraction
1 True-Name Nemesis

Honden is nice as it's a hard to remove threat versus control and a repeating removal. I like ground seal in the board too. Nice

RUG Delver tournament report:

Hey everyone, went to the Geek Fortress 1k today with RUG and ended up going 4-2 and missing top 8 by breakers. Figured I’d write up a tournament report both for my own memory and in the hopes that someone else will find it interesting. I’m realizing now that I didn’t take nearly good enough notes for my memory, so I apologize for not being quite as detailed as I’d like to be. First, the list:

18 Land
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

11 Creature
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Hooting Mandrills
1 True-Name Nemesis

31 Instant and Sorcery
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Dismember
1 Forked Bolt
1 Life from the Loam

Sideboard:
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Abrade
2 Submerge
1 Rough // Tumble
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Sylvan Library
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Barbarian Ring

Round 1: 2-0 against Elves

I win the die roll, and keep a hand with Volc, Delver, Wasteland, and other stuff. He keeps a 6 with a lot of hesitation. I then go Volcanic Island, Delver, pass, which he follows with Bayou, Nettle Sentinel. I proceed to wasteland him, to which he promptly scoops. On to game 2!

Game 2 I keep a hand with delver, force and fodder, and a lot of removal. He starts with fetch, grab bayou, pass? I play a delver and pass. He then groans, doesn’t play a land, and plays a nettle sentinel. Delver flips, swings, and then I bolt the nettle sentinel. Next turn he plays a DRS, still missing his land drops. I dismember the DRS, swing, and then ponder into a wasteland. I waste him and he scoops.

Round 2: 2-0 against Elves

Game 1 is very close, and it seems like my opponent drew all of his value stuff and not really any of the combo stuff, which I'm totally fine with when my threat is a Delver and not anything on the ground. I use a stifle to stop a visionary from drawing later on, and on his final turn I spell pierced his glimpse after his land drop when he only had two mana to work with, saving me from whatever shenanigans he was up to. My threats were a turn 1 mongoose which finally got blocked when he was at 7, and then a delver that took forever to flip(hit him all the way down to 3) before finally flipping and killing him.

Game 2 was much less close. He started with a turn 1 GSZ into dryad arbor, which I bolted on my turn. He did stone cold nothing for almost the rest of the game, where I drop a Delver into Mongoose and then Hooting Mandrills, 8ing him from 16 to dead very quickly.

Round 3: 2-0 against Miracles

Game 1 I had absolutely no business winning. My threats keep getting removed, but usually stick long enough to get 3-6 damage in before something happens to them. My opponent manages to stabilize at 4 with a Jace on the field and no threats on my side of the field. In hand I have Delver, Mongoose, Bolt, Daze, Daze. I cast a Mongoose, which my opponent counters. I then cast Delver, to which my opponent activates Azcanta to dig for answers. He finds Terminus. He then Counterspells. He now has 1 untapped dual and a fetch. I Daze once, which he pays for. I Daze against, to which he thinks for a moment and then actives his fetch, going to 3. I respond by Bolting him, for which he has no answer. No idea what he was doing, but I take the win. He seems pretty upset at himself over this, but is a nice guy and isn’t salty or anything.

Game 2 goes fairly similarly, but he stabilizes just a bit late and can’t seem to find the Terminus for my Mongoose. Midway through the game he plays a Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, which sits and makes 2/2s for the rest of the game. This blocks 1 Mongoose indefinitely, but I find a second one to keep swinging. The game winning play is when I hold a Wasteland until the end of my main 2 after playing some spells, which he fights over with numerous Brainstorms. This leaves him with not enough mana to activate Azcanta on my turn, so I play Wasteland and Brainstorm lock him. I wasn’t actually expecting to be able to leave him without an Azcanta activation on my turn, but I figured I should just hold onto the Wasteland just in case and got rewarded for it. Realistically, he was incredibly unlucky not to find a Terminus, but regardless I think I played well to capitalize on it.

Round 4: 0-2 against Food Chain

Games 1 and 2 go fairly similarly, so I’ll just go over them together. I played out a delver early in both games and rode it a couple turns, but overall was powerless to keep myself from just getting killed by food chain on turn 4-5. I wasn’t sure exactly how to play the matchup, because it felt like if I just focused my counter magic on his combo then he played out Baleful Strix which I couldn’t deal with, and if I used it early he could just combo off on me later. If anyone is familiar with the matchup, please give me some tips.

Round 5: 1-2 against Stoneblade

Game 1 I lose after a long battle by just getting killed by True-Name Nemesis. I don’t remember this game particularly well, I just got grinded out of the course of many turns.

Game 2 I win by playing delver turn 1 and just protecting it until he hits 9. I have 2 bolts in hand and know I have one on top of my library. He blood moons me in his main, and then I bolt him on his end step, putting him to 6. Then, during my upkeep he Pyroblasts my Delver. This resolves, I draw, and then I double bolt him, holding up a Pyroblast. in case he has counter magic. I feel pretty blessed to have drawn triple Bolt so late into the game, but I take it.

Game 3 I make a play that I feel like is very questionable, but potentially correct. If anyone has input it’s super appreciated.

A few turns into the game, he stoneforges. I stifle the trigger, and then bolt the stone forge. The next turn he plays another one, grabs a batterskull, and passes. I have no more removal, so I hold up mana for abrade and pass back. He simply draws and passes. I draw, play a fetch, and the board state is then a stoneforge and 3 untapped land for him, and 3 lands and a Nimble Mongoose with 3 cards in the graveyard for me. I’m holding a Mongoose, Abrade, Spell Snare, Pyroblast. I decide to swing, because A. If he drops the Batterskull to block with to try to gain life, I’m confident I can abrade it and counter any response of his. and B. if he just blocks it, it helps fill my graveyard which I had no real belief would be hitting threshold anytime soon for my second Mongoose, and unlike against Miracles I can’t really win the long game.

Regardless, he blocks with stoneforge and then drops batterskull end step, which I abrade. I drop the second Mongoose my next turn, and the turn after that he chumps with a Stoneforge. He then follows up on his turn with a True-Name Nemesis. We sit and stare at each other for a while, as I’m technically ahead on life, and he feels no pressure to put himself at risk to close the game out. After I draw garbage 3 turns in a row, he plays a Blood Moon. At this point, I look at the clock and see that there’s 10 minutes left. While I still don’t have any board presence, being 3-1 I recognize that my out to get into top 8 is drawing this game and winning the next one. I continue to just sit there and do nothing, as does he. Eventually he finds an Engineered Explosives, blows up my mongoose, and then just starts swinging. At this point, I finally scoop as I actually cannot cast anything and there’s no way I can not lose for 5 more minutes.

Round 6: 2-1 against UR Delver

I win Game 1 by playing pretty hard control before finally just landing a Mongoose and killing him with it. I removed a number of his threats, and his burn got me down to 5 but wasn’t enough to finish it. I misplayed ridiculously hard by literally forgetting to attack one turn while I was closing the game out, which caused him to start to come back into the game but didn’t find enough gas to kill me in one turn and not die on the crackback.

Game 2 I play a more aggressive hand, but it turns out the deck with 8 bolt effects is really good at removing your delvers. I get pretty thoroughly beaten this game, and it isn’t particularly close.

Game 3 goes a lot better, and was the most fun game I played all day. He plays out an Eidolon very early on a board where I have a flipped delver. He then tries to remove my delver, forcing me to cast a spell trying to remove it. Over the course of the game I hit him in increments of 3 while taking a total of 12 damage to the Eidolon protecting my Delver and removing his other threats. I didn’t want to remove the Eidolon because he was taking just as much damage to it, and I had a bolt in my hand as well as a Daze and a Spell Pierce, so I figured that when we both got low I could win the final blowout on the stack. The game ended when he cast Price while I was at 7, which would have dealt 4. This puts him down to 3 to cast. I Pierce, putting me to 5. He Dazes the Pierce, going down to 1. I respond by bolting him, which he cannot answer.

After this, I’m 4-2 before the break to top 8. Because of the way the bracket worked out, one 4-2 makes top 8 in addition to the 5-1s and the 4-1-1s. I end up in 10th place, missing out on top 8 but winning $30 in store credit.

Closing thoughts:

I really didn’t like Life from the Loam all day, although looking at my matchups it was never any of the matchups I really wanted it in. My opponents were on basic heavy decks all day or the games were supposed to be over sooner. I would have loved to see it against something like Grixis delver or Pile. The most value I got out of it was casting it with no targets to meet threshold, which is pretty garbage. I’m not going to give up on it yet, it’s been good for me other times, but I’m certainly going to be looking at this as I prepare for GP Seattle.

The Barbarian Ring in the sideboard was in a similar spot to Loam, not really finding its ideal matchup. I really enjoy seeing it in the D&T matchup, but I didn’t play it today at all.

The Hooting Mandrills vs goyf thing didn’t come up at all today, there was no time I saw Mandrills where I wished it was goyf, nor was there any time that I was glad it wasn’t goyf. Against elves it should have been relevant, but the board was totally empty and my clock didn’t change at all.

Overall, I felt like RUG was a good choice for the event, and Mongoose was the standout star of all my matchups. Very frequently what threat I had didn’t matter, but when it did matter I wanted it to be goose every time. In addition, I faced down exactly 1 Deathrite Shaman all day, which felt nice.

All of that aside, let me know if you think there's anything I was doing wrong, or if I seem to have the wrong ideas about a matchup. I'm admittedly not the best RUG player, and I still have a lot to learn.

Quote:

---

Game 2 I keep a hand with delver, force and fodder, and a lot of removal. He starts with fetch, grab bayou, pass? I play a delver and pass. He then groans, doesn’t play a land, and plays a nettle sentinel. Delver flips, swings, and then I bolt the nettle sentinel. Next turn he plays a DRS, still missing his land drops. I dismember the DRS, swing, and then ponder into a wasteland. I waste him and he scoops.

---

This seems like an obvious punt from your opp, not fetching basic forest, also why did he not play a spell on turn 1? Are you sure you're remembering this correctly?

Quote:

---

Game 1 I had absolutely no business winning. My threats keep getting removed, but usually stick long enough to get 3-6 damage in before something happens to them. My opponent manages to stabilize at 4 with a Jace on the field and no threats on my side of the field. In hand I have Delver, Mongoose, Bolt, Daze, Daze. I cast a Mongoose, which my opponent counters. I then cast Delver, to which my opponent activates Azcanta to dig for answers. He finds Terminus. He then Counterspells. He now has 1 untapped dual and a fetch. I Daze once, which he pays for. I Daze against, to which he thinks for a moment and then actives his fetch, going to 3. I respond by Bolting him, for which he has no answer. No idea what he was doing, but I take the win. He seems pretty upset at himself over this, but is a nice guy and isn’t salty or anything.

---

Generally if your opponent is so close to dying I would lead with the Delver there because it basically still demands an immediate answer and if their only available response is a counter or Terminus then your opp is left with fewer outs for your Mongoose (although if your opponent has active Azcanta this might be different, you want to kill the opponent ASAP so it might be better to deploy the more resilient threat first to force damage quickly)

Quote:

---

Game 3 I make a play that I feel like is very questionable, but potentially correct. If anyone has input it’s super appreciated.

A few turns into the game, he stoneforges. I stifle the trigger, and then bolt the stone forge. The next turn he plays another one, grabs a batterskull, and passes. I have no more removal, so I hold up mana for abrade and pass back. He simply draws and passes. I draw, play a fetch, and the board state is then a stoneforge and 3 untapped land for him, and 3 lands and a Nimble Mongoose with 3 cards in the graveyard for me. I’m holding a Mongoose, Abrade, Spell Snare, Pyroblast. I decide to swing, because A. If he drops the Batterskull to block with to try to gain life, I’m confident I can abrade it and counter any response of his. and B. if he just blocks it, it helps fill my graveyard which I had no real belief would be hitting threshold anytime soon for my second Mongoose, and unlike against Miracles I can’t really win the long game.

Regardless, he blocks with stoneforge and then drops batterskull end step, which I abrade. I drop the second Mongoose my next turn, and the turn after that he chumps with a Stoneforge. He then follows up on his turn with a True-Name Nemesis. We sit and stare at each other for a while, as I’m technically ahead on life, and he feels no pressure to put himself at risk to close the game out. After I draw garbage 3 turns in a row, he plays a Blood Moon. At this point, I look at the clock and see that there’s 10 minutes left. While I still don’t have any board presence, being 3-1 I recognize that my out to get into top 8 is drawing this game and winning the next one. I continue to just sit there and do nothing, as does he. Eventually he finds an Engineered Explosives, blows up my mongoose, and then just starts swinging. At this point, I finally scoop as I actually cannot cast anything and there’s no way I can not lose for 5 more minutes.

---

I'm not totally sure which is the part you think is questionable but personally there are a couple of things I think are wrong
1. Stifling and then Bolting SFM. It seems like you have abrade in your hand at the time (unless you drew it the turn after) so why do you need to stop both the ETB trigger and kill the SFM? You can just Stifle the ETB and then wait for any equipment if they have it, or don't Stifle the ETB and Abrade whatever they find, but after both of these situations the SFM itself isn't threatening so why bolt it? You can see this after he plays the second SFM and you Abrade the Batterskull, the SFM does nothing else until it chump blocks your mongoose.
2. Chump attacking your Mongoose into a SFM. Your hand has so much interaction that the only way you don't get cards in the graveyard is if your opponent doesn't play anything, but if they don't play anything then you don't care because you're currently under no pressure. Why do you think you can't win the 'long' game? (Please tell me you didn't use the Pyroblast on a land just to make Mongoose 3/3)

Playing for a draw is fine in this situation but as you found out if you're literally not doing anything each turn it's very hard not to lose unless you're stalling

Quote:

---

Closing thoughts:

I really didn’t like Life from the Loam all day, although looking at my matchups it was never any of the matchups I really wanted it in. My opponents were on basic heavy decks all day or the games were supposed to be over sooner. I would have loved to see it against something like Grixis delver or Pile. The most value I got out of it was casting it with no targets to meet threshold, which is pretty garbage. I’m not going to give up on it yet, it’s been good for me other times, but I’m certainly going to be looking at this as I prepare for GP Seattle.

---

I hate this card maindeck because it's very slow to have an impact and it doesn't help you when you're behind. In the SB I think it's good because your overall gameplan in most interactive matchups is to become more grindy so this drawback is less of an issue, and the combo with Barbarian Ring is really good. I would board it in vs Elves and Miracles and probably Stoneblade, but not UR

Quote:

---

The Hooting Mandrills vs goyf thing didn’t come up at all today, there was no time I saw Mandrills where I wished it was goyf, nor was there any time that I was glad it wasn’t goyf. Against elves it should have been relevant, but the board was totally empty and my clock didn’t change at all.

---

Personally I like Tarmogoyf better than Mandrills but you will see that Mandrills improves your % against Elves if you play enough games (although having a whopping 6 removal spells in your SB definitely makes trample less relevant)

Got a 5-0 last night with the below it's pretty much Chemical Burns list.

Life from the loam and dead/gone over performed.

Abrade is sick in the sideboard.


https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net...14&oe=5B07399D

https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net...cb&oe=5B166EAF

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by themtgzealot

Got a 5-0 last night with the below it's pretty much Chemical Burns list.

Life from the loam and dead/gone over performed.

Abrade is sick in the sideboard.

---

Can I get a summary of matchups, and spots where dead/gone was good

Considering my Mandrills RUG list (with probes) and looking for additional ways to hedge against control matchups, I feel like Sylvan Library and Honden are both lackluster as techs (mostly so since I do not play Goyf). I also do not like TNN since they cost 3. Would Young Pyro be a good addition to the SB (2 of) in that regard? How about Search for Azcanta?

How do you guys play the Lands matchup?

Thanks, so far your comments have been very enlightening.

Quote:

---

This seems like an obvious punt from your opp, not fetching basic forest, also why did he not play a spell on turn 1? Are you sure you're remembering this correctly?

---

Yes, my round 1 opponent was just terrible. Apparently his friends had to convince him to be playing more than 2 GSZ, and he wanted to cut them again. I distinctly remember this match because I was astounded at how terribly my opp played.

Quote:

---

Generally if your opponent is so close to dying I would lead with the Delver there because it basically still demands an immediate answer and if their only available response is a counter or Terminus then your opp is left with fewer outs for your Mongoose (although if your opponent has active Azcanta this might be different, you want to kill the opponent ASAP so it might be better to deploy the more resilient threat first to force damage quickly)

---

I'll be entirely honest, I don't remember why I did it in this order but I suspect it was wrong

Quote:

---

1. Stifling and then Bolting SFM. It seems like you have abrade in your hand at the time (unless you drew it the turn after)

---

I drew it later, I at the time had no answer to a batterskull

Quote:

---

2. Chump attacking your Mongoose into a SFM. Your hand has so much interaction that the only way you don't get cards in the graveyard is if your opponent doesn't play anything, but if they don't play anything then you don't care because you're currently under no pressure. Why do you think you can't win the 'long' game? (Please tell me you didn't use the Pyroblast on a land just to make Mongoose 3/3)

---

I for sure did not throw pyroblast away. I'm not that bad haha. I'll explain my thinking here. Between Blood Moon, a bunch of removal, TNN, Stoneforge, EE, and all their counterspells, I didn't think I had the ability to be doing nothing because I just can't do things like putting a SoFI on a True-Name. My graveyard only had 3 cards in it, so I would have just been sitting there for a while hoping they didn't do anything I couldn't interact with.

That being said, I recognize that you're totally correct. I had Abrade for equipment and Pyroblast for TNN, and if they didn't do anything that lets me draw into things that let me actually fight over stuff. I think I was already anxious from the event and just got a bit panicky.

Quote:

---

Playing for a draw is fine in this situation but as you found out if you're literally not doing anything each turn it's very hard not to lose unless you're stalling

---

I was actually being conscious not to slow play, he just wasn't doing anything. We got to the point where we each had a full grip and were discarding each turn. I think the clock got to about 5 minutes. Sure, it was hopeless, but once the EE came down I just scooped because I don't need to make him swing 5 turns.

Quote:

---

I hate this card maindeck because it's very slow to have an impact and it doesn't help you when you're behind. In the SB I think it's good because your overall gameplan in most interactive matchups is to become more grindy so this drawback is less of an issue, and the combo with Barbarian Ring is really good. I would board it in vs Elves and Miracles and probably Stoneblade, but not UR

---

I've been feeling like I agree, but it's just won me games out of the blue too often to want to get rid of. I might end up just sideboarding it though, it might be too cute in the main. What do you think I should be taking out for a Barbarian Ring when I want that package?

Quote:

---

Personally I like Tarmogoyf better than Mandrills but you will see that Mandrills improves your % against Elves if you play enough games (although having a whopping 6 removal spells in your SB definitely makes trample less relevant)

---

I think that at least where I'm playing Mandrills is better, as there's a lot of elves and a lot of copies of Young Pyromancer. At the very least, I've liked it better, but I'm definitely open to testing with Tarmogoyf more as I know there's a reason other people prefer it.




EDIT: As I don't want to double post, yesterday I saw someone playing Sulfuric Vortex in their RUG sideboard. It did some serious work for them, and I believe they top 8'd. Any thoughts on it? Card seems sweet if not a little hard to cast, but I can't imagine it's bad against quite a few of the slower decks in the format. Jace lines up horrendously against a resolved Vortex, for example.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Turboninja

Considering my Mandrills RUG list (with probes) and looking for additional ways to hedge against control matchups, I feel like Sylvan Library and Honden are both lackluster as techs (mostly so since I do not play Goyf). I also do not like TNN since they cost 3. Would Young Pyro be a good addition to the SB (2 of) in that regard? How about Search for Azcanta?

How do you guys play the Lands matchup?

Thanks, so far your comments have been very enlightening.

---

1. What does Sylvan or Honden have to do with Goyf?
2. Why do you dislike Sylvan Library but are interested in Azcanta?
3. Azcanta is still 'effectively' a 3 drop, like TNN, because you need 3 other lands in play to activate it
4. What does young Pyro do that you are interested in, what matchup do you want it for?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Turboninja

Considering my Mandrills RUG list (with probes) and looking for additional ways to hedge against control matchups, I feel like Sylvan Library and Honden are both lackluster as techs (mostly so since I do not play Goyf). I also do not like TNN since they cost 3. Would Young Pyro be a good addition to the SB (2 of) in that regard? How about Search for Azcanta?

How do you guys play the Lands matchup?

Thanks, so far your comments have been very enlightening.

---

Sylvan Library is insane in grindy matchups in general. The long term filtering eventually will turn into virtual card advantage very much like what Sensei's Divining Top did for Counter Top Miracles, and that is just the minimum that Sylvan Library does. Sylvan Library can just draw you extra cards over the course of a game, given it is at a little pricey, but the extra cards can net you a massive advantage. That said, I strongly suggest playing Sylvan Library in the sideboard.

Also side note, I may be playing some higher level events soon with Canadian Threshold, so I might write a report if anyone wants to hear my experiences with the Mandrills build.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

They both get bopped by swords, this is not really an important consideration.

I agree that no anti-control cards seems rough (and with only mongoose as shroud creatures this will make the lands matchup harder)
I don't like Submerge as an answer for Marit Lage because good opponents will always play around it as much as possible by not playing Forests (e.g. I think the GB Turbo lists are playing Blooming Marsh specifically for this reason)
I think if you aren't playing Goyf (so you don't care about different card types and therefore aren't interested in Seal of Fire or Tarfire) then Dead/Gone is a good card, it's better at answering DRS than Submerge (I don't mind boarding in 1 Forked Bolt vs DRS decks even though I expect it to be Sorcery Shock a lot of the time).

Also props to 'TBR87' on modo for going 5-0 with the Honden tech

Creature (11)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf
Sorcery (4)
4 Ponder
Instant (25)
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
Enchantment (1)
1 Seal of Fire
Land (18)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
Tribal instant (1)
1 Tarfire
60 Cards

Sideboard (15)
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Destructive Revelry
1 Dismember
2 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ground Seal
1 Honden of Infinite Rage
1 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
1 Rough // Tumble
1 Surgical Extraction
1 True-Name Nemesis

---

Hi all, tbr87 here. I managed to get another 5-0 with the exact same list yesterday. I play occasionally but I usually get 2-4 wins per league. I would like to share my thoughts after my recent success and see how else I can improve the deck, especially the sideboard. My matchups for both 5-0s are as follows:

DNT
UW Stoneblade with Back to basics
Omni-show
Grixis Delver
Grixis Delver

Eldrazi Post
Jund
Eldrazi Stompy (Eldrazi Mimic & Matter Reshaper) with Cloudpost
RB Reanimator (with Young Pyromancer/Stronghold Gambit in Sideboard)
Aluren

Here are my thoughts on specific cards in my main deck. Please feel free to post your opinions:

Tarmogoyf is overall a better main deck card than Mandrils with the inclusion of Seal of Fire/Tarfire removal package. Being able to outgrow opposing Gurmag Anglers and Reality Smashers is quite relevant against popular decks like Grixis and Eldrazi. Against other random matchups like Burn/Prison it is an efficient beat stick with a fast clock (countering artifacts/enchantments is common enough for Goyf to grow to a 5/6 or 6/7 versus random decks). While I recognize the strength of Mandrils against Abrupt Decay and Fatal Push, there isn't a large number of these cards in the current meta and Delver of Secrets already dies to those cards. Nimble Mongoose shines in those match-ups and the Goyfs can be sideboarded out for TNN/removal. Also I find the anti-synergy of Mandrils + Mongoose rather distasteful, especially since I view Nimble Mongoose as the MVP card against removal-heavy decks.

I like the Tarfire/Seal of Fire mix because I am playing 3 Pierce so the sorcery speed removal hurts.

I also like the idea of Dead/Gone in the main deck against opposing Dark Depths decks but I still prefer the "Grow Goyf" removal package overall.

Spell Snare is amazing in this meta and should definitely not be cut. It is also great against Edict effects post-board.

I dislike Gitaxian Probe because the life loss is relevant against Grixis and your general game plan against all decks is always the same: Use your soft counters to prevent your opponents from developing the board, stick a threat and use your burn spells for reach/ creature removal. You don't have synergistic cards like Young Pyromancer or Cabal Therapy in your deck to generate additional value.

The meta I face on MTGO is quite varied. I see Storm, Burn, Midrange, Delver, Reanimator, Dredge, Merfolk, DnT, Elves, Miracles, Lands etc in the leagues. This makes me reluctant to add Dismember to the main deck.



Here are my thoughts on specific cards in my sideboard. I am still looking to optimize my sideboard so please feel free to post your opinions:

Ground Seal is great. It stops the late game value of snapcaster mage, deathrite shaman, life from the loam, kolaghan's command AND it draws you a card. It's also difficult to counter and remove other than Abrupt Decay. I am always glad to board it in against any grindy decks to stop them from out-valuing you. It also comes in against Reanimator.

Honden of Infinite Rage is tech taken from kombatkiwi. It is supposed to ping Baleful Strix and other small creatures and is also an alternate win-con that plays around creature removal. But it is quite a slow card and has not been very relevant in the 10 matches I played. I still like it though so I'll continue testing it out.

Grafdigger's Cage/ Surgical Extraction: Currently 2/1 split instead of 1/2 split because I respect Dredge decks. Cage is still good against GSZ & ANT as well.

2 Flusterstorm: Because even with 2 Cage and 3 Pierce I find myself disadvantaged against the good Storm pilots

Rough/Tumble is still a great one-sided wrath even though it hits your own TNN but it doesn't kill theirs:mad: I would love to find a way to squeeze in another one of these.

TNN is great I would love another one but he's currently 70 tix on MTGO :frown:

Pithing Needle is a great catch-all card especially against Lands, BG depths, DnT and the card attacks from a different angle.

Ancient Grudge/ Destructive Revelry: Playing a 1/1 split to deal with pesky enchantments like Counterbalance/Carpet of Flowers/Blood Moon. I am unsure if I should increase the count of artifact removal due to limited Sideboard space. Also, I don't see how Abrade is better than Ancient Grudge. What kind of match-ups are good where the flexibility of Abrade is better? Stoneforge decks? I guess it could replace Dismember but I still find it useful against Gurmag Anglers/Eldrazi.

Life from the Loam/Sylvan Library/Chart a Course/Predict: My experience with these cards is that they take a long time to generate value and do not provide an immediate impact on the board, which is generally what I am look for in my sideboard cards. Additional card draw in RUG is not as powerful compared to other decks as our cards are less powerful and we do not need that many lands to cast our spells. Drawing additional dazes/stifles/lands doesn't feel very good. I prefer boarding in cards that are a must-answer for the opponent once deployed. Loam is probably good against other Wasteland decks but I still find it clunky in actual games.

I would love to somehow fit in a bounce spell in the sideboard against Marit Lange decks. Seems like Vapor Snag, Perilous Voyage and Dead/Gone are the better choices out there currently.



I would love hear more feedback and alternative card choices to optimize RUG delver. I recognize that Grixis Delver is the deck with more raw power, but I enjoy the sleek efficiency of RUG and playing with Stifle & Nimble Mongoose.

I like the idea of Ground Seal but I dislike that it turns off my own LftL
I think that LftL provides a different angle to something like predict because continuously recurring wasteland can be a legit wincon in certain matchups and I like the combo with Barbarian Ring.
I don't really like Rough/Tumble either but apart from that I agree with pretty much everything you say.

I thought I found the nut answer for Dark Depths: Fog Bank, except the GB Turbo version still has Sejiri Steppe to attack past it (and against RG they can obviously Punishing Fire it). And then how do you win if your opponent just leaves Marit Lage in play? Wait to draw TNN? What a stupid idea

If you want a dedicated anti-Lage card I think Dead/Gone is the best option I have seen, obviously Vapor Snag is better against exactly Lage but Shock is playable in other matchups

Yeah Fog Bank is terrible; perhaps worth considering at :1::u: though is Gilded Drake as it can also be brought in against Reanimator and Emrakul decks. If you wanted a Fog effect, I'd suggest instead running Constant Mists or perhaps Moment's Peace. Unlikely, but maybe even Dawnstrider.

I *love* how amazing Ground Seal is against 4C-Control. And it even cantrips! Definitely a card I hadn't considered playing for awhile. I would still backup your GY hate with a few copies of Grafdigger's Cage and/or Surgical Extraction.

Honden of Infinite Rage has been nice as a slower Sulfuric Vortex that also pings X/1 critters. Especially useful against Baleful Strix, and against DnT or Elves. I've had plenty of games where it comes down to just needing a few extra points of damage, where Honden is able to close out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

1. What does Sylvan or Honden have to do with Goyf?
2. Why do you dislike Sylvan Library but are interested in Azcanta?
3. Azcanta is still 'effectively' a 3 drop, like TNN, because you need 3 other lands in play to activate it
4. What does young Pyro do that you are interested in, what matchup do you want it for?

---

1. If they are countered, they grow Goyf. Might be irrelevant.
2. Sylvan hurts with Probes and Dismember, and Search for Azcanta fills my graveyard with its scry.
3. No need to flip it right away, I feel like it can help you filter your draws until eventually you flip it.
4. Against Miracles, Czech and Grixis. Any deck with plenty of removal.

Overall, I feel like Search for Azcanta might fill a similar role to Sylvan, while being more appropriate with Probe and Mandrills.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Turboninja

4. Against Miracles, Czech and Grixis. Any deck with plenty of removal.

---

I believe this is Mongoose's role in our deck, and after that TNN if you want it. I don't think the current build really needs more of it, because Pyromancer still has all the current problems that Goose does(board wipes, blockers). You could probably try a recent Grixis Delver style build of RUG where you play actual 15 threats with like 4/4/3/2/2 of Delver, Goose, Goyf, Pyromancer, TNN. I can't imagine it'll be any better than current builds, but it would be a pain in the ass for people to deal with.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

I like the idea of Ground Seal but I dislike that it turns off my own LftL
I think that LftL provides a different angle to something like predict because continuously recurring wasteland can be a legit wincon in certain matchups and I like the combo with Barbarian Ring.
I don't really like Rough/Tumble either but apart from that I agree with pretty much everything you say.

I thought I found the nut answer for Dark Depths: Fog Bank, except the GB Turbo version still has Sejiri Steppe to attack past it (and against RG they can obviously Punishing Fire it). And then how do you win if your opponent just leaves Marit Lage in play? Wait to draw TNN? What a stupid idea

If you want a dedicated anti-Lage card I think Dead/Gone is the best option I have seen, obviously Vapor Snag is better against exactly Lage but Shock is playable in other matchups

---

Repeal? U, draw a card, kill target Marit Lage. Paying 1U isn't out of the question for 1-drops either. Not sure the draw is more important than the Dead/Gone potential, but it is more mana efficient for Depths specifically.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FiliusIcari

I believe this is Mongoose's role in our deck, and after that TNN if you want it. I don't think the current build really needs more of it, because Pyromancer still has all the current problems that Goose does(board wipes, blockers).

---

^ This

Repeal is a good catch compared to Vapor Snag but I think the versatility of Dead/Gone might still be better for the general metagame.

In the matchups where you want Sylvan Library but the lifeloss is relevant your opponent will be playing Wasteland which negates Azcanta anyway.
Saying that 'you don't have to flip it right away and can just let it filter your draws' is technically true, but this is a really underwhelming payoff for committing 1 card and 2 mana.
Then in matchups where your manabase and life total aren't being pressured Azcanta could be good, but this is the exact situation where Sylvan Library is great.
I haven't tested Azcanta much (in this deck) so I could be wrong but this is my initial impression.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

Can I get a summary of matchups, and spots where dead/gone was good

---

Only just saw this can't remember too many details but I played against

D&T x2, Turbo Depths, Aluren, Sneak and Show and Czech Pile.

Dead was very good as it can kill all the problem creatures like Thalia, Deathrite etc, but gone was very useful highlights were bouncing marit lage, griselbrand and also Gurmag anglers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

^ This

Repeal is a good catch compared to Vapor Snag but I think the versatility of Dead/Gone might still be better for the general metagame.

In the matchups where you want Sylvan Library but the lifeloss is relevant your opponent will be playing Wasteland which negates Azcanta anyway.
Saying that 'you don't have to flip it right away and can just let it filter your draws' is technically true, but this is a really underwhelming payoff for committing 1 card and 2 mana.
Then in matchups where your manabase and life total aren't being pressured Azcanta could be good, but this is the exact situation where Sylvan Library is great.
I haven't tested Azcanta much (in this deck) so I could be wrong but this is my initial impression.

---

Ok you make fair points. How about this sideboard for my Hooting Mandrills list:

SB:
2 Pyroblast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ground Seal
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Sylvan Library
1 Destructive Revelry
1 Submerge
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Dismember
1 Dead // Gone
2 Rough // Tumble

Edit: I really want to keep one dismember for Eldrazi, Gurmag and Goyf matchups. Maybe 2 Pyroblasts is too few against TNN decks. Since I went down one Abrade to fit another Rough // Tumble, I changed the other Abrade for Ancient Grudge to keep my artifact removal count up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ronin87

Ground Seal is great. It stops the late game value of snapcaster mage, deathrite shaman, life from the loam, kolaghan's command AND it draws you a card. It's also difficult to counter and remove other than Abrupt Decay. I am always glad to board it in against any grindy decks to stop them from out-valuing you. It also comes in against Reanimator.

---

My bolding.

Is this really true?
I am not a rules expert, but I did not consider Loam to be the "target" of any effect when dredgeing. Therefore I would assume that Ground Seal doesn't interact with Loam at all.
Anyone with more insight may feel free to explain to me exactly how this work, if it works. Thanks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Grizzly_Bear

My bolding.

Is this really true?
I am not a rules expert, but I did not consider Loam to be the "target" of any effect when dredgeing. Therefore I would assume that Ground Seal doesn't interact with Loam at all.
Anyone with more insight may feel free to explain to me exactly how this work, if it works. Thanks.

---

Upon casting, Lftl requires up to three target lands. Ground Seal stops that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Turboninja

Upon casting, Lftl requires up to three target lands. Ground Seal stops that.

---

Haha, that's amazing. I guess I didn't see the forest because of all the trees standing in the way =)

Hey guys,

I usually do not play Canadian T, but I am a big fan of it and read your site all the time :-) sometimes I even dare to play it ;)

Anyway, I have a question: how is it that Winter Orb is fading away? Even against post-top Miracles it can be good - or not? Maybe Kolaghan's Command makes it bad against Czech Pile and that is why it is gone.

Thanks for you expertizes ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fapsik

Hey guys,

I usually do not play Canadian T, but I am a big fan of it and read your site all the time :-) sometimes I even dare to play it ;)

Anyway, I have a question: how is it that Winter Orb is fading away? Even against post-top Miracles it can be good - or not? Maybe Kolaghan's Command makes it bad against Czech Pile and that is why it is gone.

Thanks for you expertizes ;)

---

i used to play winter orb, usually two copies, i think that it's still pretty good against control decks like miracle, blade and other random decks. As u said i never use winter orb against kolaghan's command decks, like grisix control or czech pile

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

They both get bopped by swords, this is not really an important consideration.

---

Hmm, I have to disagree with this.

They both get answered by Swords, but one nukes your graveyard, and the other does not.

I'm not interested in nuking my graveyard when my best card vs swords to plowshares requires threshold.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rlesko

Hmm, I have to disagree with this.

They both get answered by Swords, but one nukes your graveyard, and the other does not.

I'm not interested in nuking my graveyard when my best card vs swords to plowshares requires threshold.

---

If by Swords to Plowshares you mean 'any spot removal that kills Mandrills' (which in legacy is mostly STP I suppose) then this does make sense.
If your Mandrills dies then you need to follow up with another threat, and if the only available threat is Mongoose then you might not have threshold anymore

How do you feel about Counterspell as a card to play against control decks?

Seems good to counter their payoff cards, and generally giving you more late game power. I might try to replace something for it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Turboninja

How do you feel about Counterspell as a card to play against control decks?

Seems good to counter their payoff cards, and generally giving you more late game power. I might try to replace something for it.

---

I was wondering this as well. I haven't played legacy in about 3 months. (Between work, and finding a decent legacy LGS near staten island, NY) But anyway, I find one of biggest issues is not being having a hard counter for a large creature threat mid - late game. I was actually trying counterspell as mainboard, but it was frequently unnecessary Game 1. I think it would be a great SB in this deck, but people with way more experience and skill in this deck advise against it.


My meta is not that large, The decks I seem to play often are DnT, Elves, Eldrazi, BUG Delver. On rare occasion Grixis Delver.

My current build is:

Main (60)

Creatures (11)

4x delver
4x nimble mongoose
3x tarmogoyf

Spells (31)

4x brainstorm
4x ponder
4x force of will
4x daze
4x stifle
3x spell pierce
2x spell snare
4x lightning bolt
1x tarfire
1x dismember

Land (18)

3x volcanic island
3x tropical island
4x wasteland
4x polluted delta
4x flooded strand

Sideboard (15)
3x REB
1x spell snare
1x flusterstorm
2x graffdiggers cage
1x surgical extraction
1x ground seal
2x ancient grudge
1x slyvan library
1x sulfur elemental
1x dismember
1x dead/gone
1x TNN

I know I should probably mainboard a Seal of fire, for both removal and tarmogoyf, I just don't like that it doesn't flip Delver. I find spell snare to be the MVP in a lot of games. I did try the Hooting mandrills route, I did find the lack of synergy with mongoose to be problematic. Fatal push is not hard to deal with, nor do I see it being played that often. As for mainboarding a TNN. I would love to, but I feel 3 CMC is high for this deck, and it can just be sideboarded in with library against control.


So I digress, does counterspell belong in this deck? I feel its one of those cards that so simple, good, but overlooked.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bl4ckwell

I was wondering this as well. I haven't played legacy in about 3 months. (Between work, and finding a decent legacy LGS near staten island, NY) But anyway, I find one of biggest issues is not being having a hard counter for a large creature threat mid - late game. I was actually trying counterspell as mainboard, but it was frequently unnecessary Game 1. I think it would be a great SB in this deck, but people with way more experience and skill in this deck advise against it.


So I digress, does counterspell belong in this deck? I feel its one of those cards that so simple, good, but overlooked.

---

Post 2474 in this thread (only a few pages back) Sean Brown liked the 1 SB counterspell in the list that he played.

I played this card maindeck for quite a while and I think that it's just too clunky, especially in Wasteland mirrors. If you want 1 generic card to 'smooth' your selection of spells then I like 1 preordain.
In the SB I don't think it's a horrendous choice either but I feel that I would rather pick a card that was better against more targeted matchups

For example my SB in my most recent events was
1 Barb Ring
1 Loam
2 TNN
2 Surgical
2 Grudge
1 Forked Bolt
1 Winter Orb
1 Honden
3 Reb/Pyro
1 Spell Pierce

(4 Goyf 2 Seal 2 Snare 1 Pierce 1 Preordain main)

My main problem with this config (apart from thinking that maybe the Winter Orb is unnecessary / could be better as something else) was that I thought that 3 REB was too many because I didn't have enough interaction against nonblue combo/prison decks. My immediate reaction was therefore to cut 1 Red Blast for 1 more Spell Pierce.

It would be a comparable choice to play 1 Counterspell and 1 Pierce SB instead of this 2 Pierce, which makes your combo matchups slightly worse and your 'long game' matchups slightly better. I think this is perfectly reasonable but with the rest of the setup I have, I feel that am more afraid of fast Reanimate, Blood Moons etc than lategame control decks or decks where I need to counter creature spells.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

If by Swords to Plowshares you mean 'any spot removal that kills Mandrills' (which in legacy is mostly STP I suppose) then this does make sense.
If your Mandrills dies then you need to follow up with another threat, and if the only available threat is Mongoose then you might not have threshold anymore

---

Let me clarify. I believe your original comment was in regards to Goyf vs Monkey.

Both get exiled by swords to plowshares. But, our best card vs swords to plowshares is Nimble Mongoose. If you play Monkey + Goose, I believe this is the worst configuration of creatures to fight Swords to Plowshare decks.

Obviously it is the best configuration vs fatal push.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

Post 2474 in this thread (only a few pages back) Sean Brown liked the 1 SB counterspell in the list that he played.

I played this card maindeck for quite a while and I think that it's just too clunky, especially in Wasteland mirrors. If you want 1 generic card to 'smooth' your selection of spells then I like 1 preordain.
In the SB I don't think it's a horrendous choice either but I feel that I would rather pick a card that was better against more targeted matchups

For example my SB in my most recent events was
1 Barb Ring
1 Loam
2 TNN
2 Surgical
2 Grudge
1 Forked Bolt
1 Winter Orb
1 Honden
3 Reb/Pyro
1 Spell Pierce

(4 Goyf 2 Seal 2 Snare 1 Pierce 1 Preordain main)

My main problem with this config (apart from thinking that maybe the Winter Orb is unnecessary / could be better as something else) was that I thought that 3 REB was too many because I didn't have enough interaction against nonblue combo/prison decks. My immediate reaction was therefore to cut 1 Red Blast for 1 more Spell Pierce.

It would be a comparable choice to play 1 Counterspell and 1 Pierce SB instead of this 2 Pierce, which makes your combo matchups slightly worse and your 'long game' matchups slightly better. I think this is perfectly reasonable but with the rest of the setup I have, I feel that am more afraid of fast Reanimate, Blood Moons etc than lategame control decks or decks where I need to counter creature spells.

---

I agree that in a non miracle dominated world, 3 blasts is too many.

When you are worried about fast reanimates, fast blood moons, etc, REB is just silly. I also only play 2 REBs (well, pyroblasts, but yea) and additional copy of spell pierce in my sideboard.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rlesko

I agree that in a non miracle dominated world, 3 blasts is too many.

When you are worried about fast reanimates, fast blood moons, etc, REB is just silly. I also only play 2 REBs (well, pyroblasts, but yea) and additional copy of spell pierce in my sideboard.

---

At this point I am doing a 2/1 split of grafdiggers cage/Surgical extraction, do you think it would be better to drop 1 REB, and do a 2/2 grafdiggers cage/Surgical extraction split?

The reason I personally play 3x REB/Pyro it is great to have hard counters for snapcasters and TNN which are very common and problematic. REB has actually been useful to me vs U/B reanimator, as a hard answer to their FoW back up for reanimate.

Maybe im over thinking it. Thanks in advance for any advice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bl4ckwell

At this point I am doing a 2/1 split of grafdiggers cage/Surgical extraction, do you think it would be better to drop 1 REB, and do a 2/2 grafdiggers cage/Surgical extraction split?

The reason I personally play 3x REB/Pyro it is great to have hard counters for snapcasters and TNN which are very common and problematic. REB has actually been useful to me vs U/B reanimator, as a hard answer to their FoW back up for reanimate.

Maybe im over thinking it. Thanks in advance for any advice.

---

If this is your SB
Sideboard (15)
3x REB
1x spell snare
1x flusterstorm
2x graffdiggers cage
1x surgical extraction
1x ground seal
2x ancient grudge
1x slyvan library
1x sulfur elemental
1x dismember
1x dead/gone
1x TNN

3x REB is a lot!!

What is the purpose of the Spell Snare?

I think you are very heavy in grave hate. I run 2x Surgical, 1 Cage.

What is the purpose of Dead // Gone?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rlesko

If this is your SB
Sideboard (15)
3x REB
1x spell snare
1x flusterstorm
2x graffdiggers cage
1x surgical extraction
1x ground seal
2x ancient grudge
1x slyvan library
1x sulfur elemental
1x dismember
1x dead/gone
1x TNN

3x REB is a lot!!

What is the purpose of the Spell Snare?

I think you are very heavy in grave hate. I run 2x Surgical, 1 Cage.

What is the purpose of Dead // Gone?

---

Dead // Gone is an anti-MaritLage card (Turbo Depths is not a favourable matchup)
For example in my SB I would seriously consider cutting the Forked Bolt for Dead/Gone but this makes the Elves and DNT matchups worse
I agree that REB is good vs TNN and Snapcaster, but you cite UB Reanimator and I think the RB version is much more popular at the moment and spell pierce is still good against both.

Also it depends on your maindeck
If you already like 2 pierce main then maybe you only need 1 pierce or 1 flusterstorm SB and you can afford to play more REB instead (REB is also the best card vs the 4x Strix decks)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

Dead // Gone is an anti-MaritLage card (Turbo Depths is not a favourable matchup)
For example in my SB I would seriously consider cutting the Forked Bolt for Dead/Gone but this makes the Elves and DNT matchups worse
I agree that REB is good vs TNN and Snapcaster, but you cite UB Reanimator and I think the RB version is much more popular at the moment and spell pierce is still good against both.

Also it depends on your maindeck
If you already like 2 pierce main then maybe you only need 1 pierce or 1 flusterstorm SB and you can afford to play more REB instead (REB is also the best card vs the 4x Strix decks)

---

This is my current build, the only changes to the main that am considering is dropping 1x spell pierce for 1x preordain, and/or dropping 1x dismember for 1x seal of fire. I just do not like that seal of fire doesn't flip delver, but its does grow goyf.

My current build is:

Main (60)

Creatures (11)

4x delver
4x nimble mongoose
3x tarmogoyf

Spells (31)

4x brainstorm
4x ponder
4x force of will
4x daze
4x stifle
3x spell pierce
2x spell snare
4x lightning bolt
1x tarfire
1x dismember

Land (18)

3x volcanic island
3x tropical island
4x wasteland
4x polluted delta
4x flooded strand




I will explain my sideboard logic, I am very open to suggestions.


Sideboard (15)

3x REB - A lot of blue targets as previously mentioned - TNN, snapcaster, strix, even opposing Delvers in a pinch. Hard counters are underestimated in my opinion. This card (or pyroblast) I believe is a huge SB advantage over the BuG Canadian lists.

1x spell snare - MVP card, but to play 3 mainboard is risky - great against Grixis, DnT, Stoneblade, even BUG Delver that's play hymns. Hard counter for RIP.

1x flusterstorm - Storm, extra counter in mirror when boarding out a couple FoW's.

2x graffdiggers cage - Obviously B/R and U/B reanimator, Dredge, but also my most hated matchup, elves

1x surgical extraction - Multiple really uses for this card, its free. Against reanimator its great, but also in a lot of matchups its great, such as wasteland a certain dual and take them off a color.

1x ground seal - graveyard protection against DRS, keeps goyf bulky, very important against Eldrazi and Angler decks. Shuts down opposing snapcaster trigger.

2x ancient grudge - Artifact removal that can be used twice. Kills artifact creatures as well.

1x slyvan library - Grindy control matchups when opponent doesn't have a fast clock. I have even used against reanimator, paying 12 life to have card advantage to keep griselbrand off the board.

1x sulfur elemental - DnT

1x dismember - I think 2x dismember mainboard is too much, but this deck needs answers for anglers and Eldrazi's.

1x dead/gone - Yes, as you mentioned great against MaritLage/Turbo Depths. But also good as a 7th removal against a variety of decks. Dead kills many weenie creatures, elves, Thalia, Mother of Runes, DRS, opposing delvers, Young pyromancer, etc. Gone is great for bouncing back that big delve creature that they just exiled 5-6 cards from there graveyard to cast, and now they cant recast it. Also good against eldrazi.

1x TNN - My least favorite card in SB, but when playing against a deck with a ton of white removal and graveyard hate keeping your goyf small and your mongoose without threshold, you need this card.

Once again, im very open to suggestions. Thank everyone for all your input and help.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bl4ckwell

1x spell snare - MVP card, but to play 3 mainboard is risky - great against Grixis, DnT, Stoneblade, even BUG Delver that's play hymns. Hard counter for RIP.

---

I do not like bringing Spell Snare in against Grixis. They have 2-3 Pyros and a SB Edict. What else is there?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Turboninja

I do not like bringing Spell Snare in against Grixis. They have 2-3 Pyros and a SB Edict. What else is there?

---

That's fair, although I have played against a few that ran 1-2 snapcaster.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

Dead // Gone is an anti-MaritLage card (Turbo Depths is not a favourable matchup)
For example in my SB I would seriously consider cutting the Forked Bolt for Dead/Gone but this makes the Elves and DNT matchups worse
I agree that REB is good vs TNN and Snapcaster, but you cite UB Reanimator and I think the RB version is much more popular at the moment and spell pierce is still good against both.

Also it depends on your maindeck
If you already like 2 pierce main then maybe you only need 1 pierce or 1 flusterstorm SB and you can afford to play more REB instead (REB is also the best card vs the 4x Strix decks)

---

I would not think a 3 mana unsummon is something I would actively board in against lands. I could understand running the Dead // Gone in the main deck as you can either kill a deathrite or unsummon a gurmag (with some upside to hit a fatty) etc. But reliably getting to 3 mana against Lands is something I am not sure I would count on. Vapor Snag / Seal of Removal are both options if you seek that effect.

With 2 Snare and 2 REB I already have 4 hard counters at the ready for strix / snap. Even stifle can stop snapcaster, usually can then ignore the 2/1 body. And then for TNN I just daze those things, getting to 3 mana against our deck should be difficult. And then also REB / force of will if daze is not an option.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bl4ckwell

This is my current build, the only changes to the main that am considering is dropping 1x spell pierce for 1x preordain, and/or dropping 1x dismember for 1x seal of fire. I just do not like that seal of fire doesn't flip delver, but its does grow goyf.

My current build is:

Main (60)

Creatures (11)

4x delver
4x nimble mongoose
3x tarmogoyf

Spells (31)

4x brainstorm
4x ponder
4x force of will
4x daze
4x stifle
3x spell pierce
2x spell snare
4x lightning bolt
1x tarfire
1x dismember

Land (18)

3x volcanic island
3x tropical island
4x wasteland
4x polluted delta
4x flooded strand




I will explain my sideboard logic, I am very open to suggestions.


Sideboard (15)

3x REB - A lot of blue targets as previously mentioned - TNN, snapcaster, strix, even opposing Delvers in a pinch. Hard counters are underestimated in my opinion. This card (or pyroblast) I believe is a huge SB advantage over the BuG Canadian lists.

1x spell snare - MVP card, but to play 3 mainboard is risky - great against Grixis, DnT, Stoneblade, even BUG Delver that's play hymns. Hard counter for RIP.

1x flusterstorm - Storm, extra counter in mirror when boarding out a couple FoW's.

2x graffdiggers cage - Obviously B/R and U/B reanimator, Dredge, but also my most hated matchup, elves

1x surgical extraction - Multiple really uses for this card, its free. Against reanimator its great, but also in a lot of matchups its great, such as wasteland a certain dual and take them off a color.

1x ground seal - graveyard protection against DRS, keeps goyf bulky, very important against Eldrazi and Angler decks. Shuts down opposing snapcaster trigger.

2x ancient grudge - Artifact removal that can be used twice. Kills artifact creatures as well.

1x slyvan library - Grindy control matchups when opponent doesn't have a fast clock. I have even used against reanimator, paying 12 life to have card advantage to keep griselbrand off the board.

1x sulfur elemental - DnT

1x dismember - I think 2x dismember mainboard is too much, but this deck needs answers for anglers and Eldrazi's.

1x dead/gone - Yes, as you mentioned great against MaritLage/Turbo Depths. But also good as a 7th removal against a variety of decks. Dead kills many weenie creatures, elves, Thalia, Mother of Runes, DRS, opposing delvers, Young pyromancer, etc. Gone is great for bouncing back that big delve creature that they just exiled 5-6 cards from there graveyard to cast, and now they cant recast it. Also good against eldrazi.

1x TNN - My least favorite card in SB, but when playing against a deck with a ton of white removal and graveyard hate keeping your goyf small and your mongoose without threshold, you need this card.

Once again, im very open to suggestions. Thank everyone for all your input and help.

---

If you feel good about the number of cards you have to fight various decks, I'm not going to change your sideboard, because play style is very important when deciding what cards you should run.

What I would ask for example - Do you find that you bring in a lot of impactful cards for most matchups? Or that you have a lot of marginal upgrades?

When I say this I mean...you have 3 REBs, 1 snare, 1 fluster, 2 Grafdiggers, 1 Surgical, 1 Ground Seal, a lot of anti combo cards there. You arguably want all of these against UB reanimator and storm for example (Except the Ground Seal vs storm). Bringing in 8/9 cards for those match ups is overkill IMO, you can easily beat both with 6-7 cards.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rlesko

I would not think a 3 mana unsummon is something I would actively board in against lands. I could understand running the Dead // Gone in the main deck as you can either kill a deathrite or unsummon a gurmag (with some upside to hit a fatty) etc. But reliably getting to 3 mana against Lands is something I am not sure I would count on. Vapor Snag / Seal of Removal are both options if you seek that effect.

With 2 Snare and 2 REB I already have 4 hard counters at the ready for strix / snap. Even stifle can stop snapcaster, usually can then ignore the 2/1 body. And then for TNN I just daze those things, getting to 3 mana against our deck should be difficult. And then also REB / force of will if daze is not an option.



If you feel good about the number of cards you have to fight various decks, I'm not going to change your sideboard, because play style is very important when deciding what cards you should run.

What I would ask for example - Do you find that you bring in a lot of impactful cards for most matchups? Or that you have a lot of marginal upgrades?

When I say this I mean...you have 3 REBs, 1 snare, 1 fluster, 2 Grafdiggers, 1 Surgical, 1 Ground Seal, a lot of anti combo cards there. You arguably want all of these against UB reanimator and storm for example (Except the Ground Seal vs storm). Bringing in 8/9 cards for those match ups is overkill IMO, you can easily beat both with 6-7 cards.

---

I feel my mainboard is well positioned against most fair decks. I actually feel this deck this pretty decent game 1 against most decks in general. I love this game, however time constraints and lack of legacy players in my area, means I don't play nearly as many games as I would like. I created this sideboard based on answers for the reasons I lose games or have lost games. I try to play this deck as intended, as an aggro/tempo/permission deck. However in some matchups I realize I have to be the control player.

Let me elaborate on the most common ways (or decks) I lose, or have lost to consistently, and then I think youll have a better idea of me as a player and to why my sideboard is what it is. These are NOT taking into account games I lost due to myself making stupid mistakes or decisions.

1) A griselbrand or similar ridiculous creature that resolved due to losing a counter war, or it happened turn 1.
2) Mid or late game, not having an answer for a large legitimately casted creature usually Angler/tasigur, and my goyfs being either removed, or my graveyard eaten my DRS or something, and I get out raced. Happens with Eldrazi to a lesser extent, but reality smashers and thought knot seer's suck...
3) Im sure this is an issue for all Delver decks but Chalice on 1.
4) Not having enough removal Against small creature heavy decks like elves/merfolk
5) Lands... Enough said

So those being the main ways I lose, I tried to SB to correct them. I feel my sideboard is extremely impactful against a moderate amount of decks. You mention UB reanimator. for that I would board something like:

-1 stifle
-1 tarfire
-1 dismember
-2 spell snare

+1 flusterstorm
+1 surgical
+2 grafdiggers cage
+1 sylvan library

So I have more counter magic that can hit reanimate, exhume. Surgical extraction might as well be a hard counter as I can extract their target creature for free. Grafdiggers obviously is best hate card against any reanimator deck. Sylvan library allows me to maintain card advantage to prevent their combo.


In general, my goal is to have sideboard options to go more aggressive, or be able to switch to playing permission with more countermagic and/or hate. I guess my sideboard is more geared against combo/mirror/delver decks.

I really do appreciate any advice or criticism. Sorry for long post. Thanks in advance for your time and help.

Sometimes your reanimator opponent has it all...turn 1 griselbrand with daze / force back up *shrug*. Try not to let these games impact you too much. Just try to focus on playing the best magic every match.

Earlier you said this...

Quote:

---

REB has actually been useful to me vs U/B reanimator, as a hard answer to their FoW back up for reanimate.

---

And then you say this

Quote:

---

-1 stifle
-1 tarfire
-1 dismember
-2 spell snare

+1 flusterstorm
+1 surgical
+2 grafdiggers cage
+1 sylvan library

---

You should be bringing in REB against UB reanimator, and don't be shy about pyroblasting their ponders / brainstorms / careful studies if you have other cards like Spell Pierce / Flusterstorm at the ready. They also likely are going to board into Show and Tell.

I never liked the card Sylvan Library against combo, mostly because I never find it good to tap 2 mana at sorcery speed for something that will help you next turn but no immediate effect. Also if you pay lots of life vs storm, they can easily natural tendrils you, for example.

If I was sideboarding with your deck, I would do the following against UB reanimator

-1 Tarmogoyf
-1 Dismember
-1 Tarfire
-4 Lightning Bolt

+1 Flusterstorm
+1 Surgical Extraction
+2 Grafdigger's Cage
+3 REB

I only ever lose to reanimator when I can't interact with them (Hence cutting bolts and a creature). Also, it is slightly weird to have Surgical and Ground Seal. Spell Snare is good vs Reanimator BTW - they have Exhumes, possibly Animate Dead, and Collective Brutality. I would not cut them (But I wouldn't board in additional copies).

I suppose you could shave a stifle on the draw, but not something I would be keen on doing. You can stifle an Animate Dead trigger FWIW.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rlesko

I would not think a 3 mana unsummon is something I would actively board in against lands. I could understand running the Dead // Gone in the main deck as you can either kill a deathrite or unsummon a gurmag (with some upside to hit a fatty) etc. But reliably getting to 3 mana against Lands is something I am not sure I would count on. Vapor Snag / Seal of Removal are both options if you seek that effect.

---

It's less for lands and more for Turbo Depths, that deck is all about making Marit Lage ASAP and unlike RG lands they have Pithing Needle for your Wasteland so it's much harder to interact with the combo. (And they aren't attacking your mana so there shouldn't be too many issues with playing a 2R spell). Having a spell that destroys Marit Lage is a huge boon (especially because in RUG colors they will often play in a way that assumes you can't beat a resolved Marit Lage) and in other matchups it's still Shock, which is fine. (If you don't think you need extra removal for other matchups then you can play Repeal or something else instead)

@bl4ckwell
I was typing out a response to this but Ryan has basically summed up what I was going to say.
I think if I had the choice against UB Reanimator of 3 Snare and 2 Reb or 3 Reb and 2 Snare I would go with the 3 Snare, but there might be a way that you can fit both. (And the Ground Seal, and maybe the Sylvan Library). In any case leaving all REB in the SB and not boarding Bolts out seems like a mistake.