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Hey guys. I saw some of you wondering about the necessity of a black splash. I would also suggest that B splash gives you access to Spectral Lynx, which right now has incredibly relevant abilities considering that Abrupt Decay and Lightning Bolt are the most played spot removals in the format.
I would respectfully disagree with that. Our deck is great against Deathrite Shaman because Shaman has no direct impact on the board, so we can pretty much ignore his presence while attacking for the kill. Sure it makes their mana marginally better, but the mana denial package is still very relevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThomasEnevoldsen
Abrupt Decay is definitely not great for us, as it takes out equipment, but many of the BUG decks aren't playing enough removal besides decay. We present too many must-answer threats including equipment, vial, and Thalia. We can still protect our creatures with Flickerwisp and Mother of Runes.
In my experience the BUG match continues to favor DnT.
On the note of Mirran Crusader, a creature I've been replacing Revoker with in the main is Stillmoon Cavalier. Stillmoon still has protection from Black, but instead of being able to interact favorably with Tarmogoyf, it instead trumps:
Swords to Plowshares
Lingering Souls
Batterskull
Knight of the Reliquary
Thalia
Qasali Pridemage
Oblivion Ring
Geist of Saint Traft
Stoneforge Mystic
Delver of Secrets
Snapcaster Mage
how do you think death and taxes will do in a meta full of deathrite and combo? Well, some combo
Well Combo is hard, as they might race our mana denial plan, but it's doable with Wasteland, Port, Thalia and Revoker on LED/Petal. Also there is the sideboard, where we can play stuff like Rule of Law, Thorn of Amethyst, Chalice, Familiar and Canonist.
Well DRS messes with our Mana denial plan . Wastelands are getting weaker, Thalia is less effective as more creatures are being played and our CA engines (SFM, Equipments, Mangara+Vial+Karakas) all fold to Abrupt Decay and are slow. Mom (and Karakas) protects our creatures, Jötun Grunt messes with DRS and recycles our threats.
Depending on the meta D&T is still viable, but it needs some tuning...
With the amount of Deathrite Shaman's running around, Samourai of the Pale Curtain seems pretty good.
That is so geniusQuote:
Originally Posted by TraxDaMax
Well, looking through old cards once in a while you find a forgotten treausure. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by goblinsplayer
I would make the argument that a resolved Deathrite Shaman has very little effect on our game plan and is overall a card we should ignore.Quote:
Originally Posted by TraxDaMax
Not only that, it's presence in the meta is largely exaggerated. Pulling from the top 16 of the last 3 SCG Opens, we find that Deathrite Shaman only appears in 10 of the 48 lists.
Samourai of the Pale Curtain seems very small and narrow, and Jotun Grunt fills that sideboard slot much better.
How long does Jotun Grunt stay on the battlefield though? With an active shaman you aren' t likely to keep it for long if you play it turn 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1337erhosen
Several things:Quote:
Originally Posted by TraxDaMax
1. The only decks you would realistically play Grunt turn two are Dredge, Reanimator, and Storm.
2. Grunt's purpose isn't to keep all graveyards clear at all times. He's present to erode some of the late game advantage that Shaman can generate, and despite his low mana cost it is often correct to play him out in the mid to late game. Most Deathrite decks play Tarmogoyf, a much more serious threat to us and whom Grunt is already very good against, and the fact that Grunt has splash damage to Deathrite just makes him more appealing.
3. Grunt doesn't die to Lightning Bolt, as where Samauri of the Pale Curtain does, a serious concern when meta-gaming against decks like RUG Delver and Jund.
4. Grunt shoudn't be your only grave hate in the board. Rest in Peace is a one-of in my board and comes in against any deck playing Goyf in addition to two Grunts. Again, I reiterate that Tarmogoyf is a much greater threat than Deathrite Shaman, and our graveyard solutions should be directed at solving Goyf before Shaman.
So I played in the Star City Games Open Series one Sunday at the Fort Worth Convention Center. As can obviously be deduced by my posting the tournament report in this thread, I played a Death and Taxes deck. The list is as follows:
LANDS:
03x Karakas
04x Wasteland
04x Rishadan Port
02x Horizon Canopy
10x Plains
LEGENDARY CREATURES:
3x Mangara of Corondor
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
CREATURES:
4x Flickerwisp
4x Serra Avenger
4x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Judge's Familiar
4x Mother of Runes
SPELLS:
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Æther Vial
EQUIPMENT:
1x Batterskull
LEGENDARY EQUIPMENT:
1x Umezawa's Jitte
SIDEBOARD:
3x Enlightened Tutor
3x Rest in Peace
2x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Honor of the Pure
1x Oust
1x Gut Shot
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
I played 8 rounds and ended up in the only place that has the privilege of also being a sexual position… 69th place. While that wasn’t high enough to walk away with prize money, I am still proud of myself because I managed to pull off my best performance at such a major tournament over the course of 8+ rounds to date. My standings at the end of the day were 4-2-2.
Round 1 vs. High Tide (1-1-1)
Game 1 I managed to lock my opponent down using Thalia and Judge’s Familiar to keep him from playing much of anything relevant. I proceeded to bring the game home using a Germ Token and Batterskull (complete with new Claarbar custom Germ Token). Game 2 I managed to get relevant hate online, but he was able to play around it using Rebuild the hate in question being Ethersworn Canonist. He proceeded to go off without hindrance. Game 3 I did not get hate out until rather late, however, when he went off he was not able to achieve victory in one round. Thus I was able to get my hate online and proceed to lock him out of the rest of the game, unfortunately this resulted in us going to time and neither of us was willing to concede to the either in the very beginning of the tournament. Therefore we both drew that first round.
Round 2 vs. BUG Control (1-1-1)
This game was a lot harder to follow than the last, but it amounted to a lot of give and take between the two of us. I of course sided in 3 Rest in Peace at the end of game 1, as well as 2 Phyrexian Revokers. I forget what I sided out, but I barely got any of my sided in hate in that match up. I did manage to get the Revokers naming Deathrite Shaman, but not the Rest in Peace's. This game was also a draw.
Round 3 vs. Canadian Threshold (2-0)
Unfortunately for me, I had the opportunity in this game to test my deck against someone who was relatively new to the game. As such I felt like a complete jerk when I proceeded to win against her because I was using my two Rishadan Ports on her to tap down her red sources while she had a Grim Lavamancer in play and untapped, while not explaining to her that she could tap the Grim Lavamancer in response to my activating Rishadan Port. I didn’t explain it to her in the match because at that point in game 2 I was at exactly 4 life and didn’t want a mistake of hers to become my mistake for telling her how to win the game. But at the same time I felt really bad for forcing her to lose the game via ignorance of the timing rules.
Round 4 vs. Combo Elves (2-1)
Someone over in the D&T thread on Salvation suggested that Combo Elves had become a Tier 1 deck due to the inclusion of some card with the word Behemoth in the name… but I think that even if this is the case, well placed removal on the correct creatures, and a proper land management package is still sufficient to deal with this deck. I really had absolutely no problem with this match up, despite any complaints that it is a bad match up for us.
Round 5 vs. UW Cawblade (0-2)
I have said it once, I will say it a thousand times. Blue and White decks are amongst our worst match ups. Or at the very least they are one of my worst match ups. Multiple Terminus', multiple Supreme Verdict's, Jace the Mind Sculptor and any number of ancillary cards makes the UW Miracle and Cawblade decks near unwinnable.
Round 6 vs. Legacy Jund (2-1)
This was an interesting match-up due to the fact that he was actually playing Blood Braid Elf. I had not actually seen that before in Legacy. As such I was quite unprepared for it. However with some well-placed Phyrexian Revokers and a Batterskull I was able to ultimately out-power everything he played including his 5/6 Tarmogoyfs.
Round 7 vs. UW Miracle/Cawblade (2-1)
All the above about the previous Cawblade deck I played is true of this one except that the Pilot of this one wasn't playing at his absolute best. As such I was able to get a Sword of Light and Shadow into play game 3 and basically stall everything he had by either blocking his Germ Token or preventing his other creatures from attacking. It got so bad that he started using his Jace the Mindsculptor as removal instead of lock down because my creatures were immune to all his spot removal. Additionally his mass removal was doing as much damage to his own game plan as it was mine. So we would have ended up in a draw thereby ruining both our chances at the top-8, but he was kind enough to give me the win so that I could move on to the next round with a shot at the top-8 if I won that round.
Round 8 vs. Hightide (0-2)
Boy, those High Tide decks really love me. First round I play one, later on I am sitting front row and center to watch a High Tide Mirror Match (for the love of god whoever paired those two needs to be shown the dictionary definition of brain annurism), and 8th round I am paired against High Tide AGAIN. This time however I am somewhat more prepared to deal with the deck. I lose game 1 readily enough due to the fact that I didn’t draw enough relevant hate fast enough. Though I did get Thalia and Phyrexian Revoker (naming Candelabra of Tawnos) online that game which slowed him down considerably. Game 2 I sided in my 2 spare Revoker and my Ethersworn Canonist. Unfortunately I didn’t side out Swords to Plowshares, instead I sided out Mangara, which was probably what cost me the match. During game 2 I managed to get all my hate online and slow him down considerably. However I did not get the Mother of Runes out to protect Thalia in time to prevent him from hitting her with a Snap, therefore he was able to go off and win that round. This resulted in my loss of that round and subsequent placing outside the prize bracket.
For all those saying that samurai of the pale curtain is the best answer to DRS, please consider the following:
- It doesn't remove the cards already in the graveyard
- It costs WW and that mana cost is not allways available on turn 2 (The turn where DRS is online if you were on the play)
THe best anti graveyard card is rest in peace for the following reasons:
- Graveyards are removed when Rest in peace comes into play
- ENchantements are more resilients than creatures
- It can be fetched via Enlightened tutor
- mana cost is 1W. much better than WW.
Of course, the same ability on a creature would be so much better. However, it doesn't exists...
If you're not yet playing 3 or even 4 of these in the sideboard, you're probably doing it wrong.
The samurai only removes permanents, right?... it doesn't remove spells casted? right?.. so the black ability will still be online.
Yeah, another downside for samurai of the pale curtain compared to rest in peace.Quote:
Originally Posted by attemanden
Yeah, I like RIP in this spot yes it can also be abrupt decayed but can't get bolted (RUG). Also exiling the grave when It CIP is nice, and can also be Enlightened Tutored for.Quote:
Originally Posted by attemanden
im playin 2 RIP in sideboard and actually i would like to add another one.
cant decide whether i like E-tutor or not. i mean i really dont like the fact that its 2 for 1, but again, it can get so many cool things from SB. but often i dont even board them in. i have been thinking about dropping them from my SB and just add more of those cards i feel i sometimes need.
what's your experience with the E-tutors?
My own experience is that there are some match ups where you really want to hit your hate card (Dredge for example, or elves or storm) and in those match ups, being able to tutor for your hate card on turn 1 and play it turn 2 is great... turn 2 rip = dredge scoops most of the time. Turn 2 revoker on LED or Petal lotus or turn 2 ethersworn cannonist is sometimes also backbreaking for storm.Quote:
Originally Posted by attemanden
However, there are also of matchups where playing hate after tutoring it is asking for 2 for 1 ing yourself. Enlightenend tutor turn 1, Rip turn 2 vs BUG answered by abrupt decay.
So my guess is that you should allways consider the matchup: Is my hate card too much for them or not? can i afford to loose 1 CA because they wont be able to recover? that's what you have to ask yourself before bringing in the Enlightened tutors.
In my experience I wouldn't bring in tutors against counter heavy decks. Dredge, Burn, Goblins, Elves, Storm, Jund, Mirror Match. I run 3 RIP in the SB, Always need that 1 COP Red to get through that match.
This has nothing to do with the E-tutor discussion, but on a side note, if they Abrupt Decay your RiP they still haven't traded 1 for 1, cause you just Tormod's crypt'ed them anyway...Quote:
Originally Posted by Tylert
Well, rip is not required on turn 1. and vs BUG, RiP is not Backbreaking, it's good yes, but not backbreaking like against dredge. That's why vs this deck i would maybe brought in only the RIP (If you run enough along the enlightened tutors).Quote:
Originally Posted by Luca Grease
Also, i should have said 2 for 1ing yourself without great advantages.
buttomline must be that we need 3 RIP in SB, and vs heavy GY plays we bring in a couple of e-tutors.
Even with tutors I would still have 3 RIP in my SB at least.
SO do i, and i would not allways bring RiP AND ET in together, depending on the matchup.
Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by attemunden
I do believe that I am one of the very few, if not only one who DOESN'T play an Enlightened Tutor board...
Main:
4 Æther Vial
3 Flickerwisp
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Stonforge Mystic
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 flex spots that change according to what I think will help in the meta. Currently Ethersworn Canonist, was previous Burrenton Forge-Tender
4 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
9 Plains
Side:
3 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Goldmeadow Harrier
3 Jotün Grunt
3 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Phyrexian Revoker
I'm sure that some here will not like my list, and that's perfectly fine. I will ask however that if you do make a negative comment on it, that you back up your opinion with a logical statement why you either like or dislike my choices and I will explain why I've made those specific ones that are brought into civilized conversation.
Why not Kor Firewalker over the Forge-Tender?
The forge-tender can prevent all damage from a red source, doesn't target, works on Progenitus and recurs with SoLaS.
It can also remove Bridge from Beyond in the dredge matchup.
@Penguinizer
How is arbiter working for you ? don't you find your current deck slow and looses to the current card advantage and discards engines of the current decks.
Is RIP that good right now over other forms of GY hate?Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
Local dredge players are telling me that RIP is overrated and I'd be better off playing other stuff like Relic or Extraction...
look at it this way, unless they have a hard counter to answer Rest in Peace then the instant you play it, they are losing their entire graveyard. So if you play it at the correct time then they will lose 1 or more bridge's, 1 or more ichorid's, and any number of their dredger's. That is a devastating loss to a dredge deck. Even if they have a means of getting it off the field with something like a hard cast Nature's Claim they have still lost a large chunk of their engine.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
Assuming that they don't have a Nature's Claim and instead hit you with a bounce spell, they didn't stop you from playing it again unless they have a discard spell on hand to cast against you.
In fact the only real advantage that Relic of Progenitus and Tormod's Crypt have is that they operate at instant speed, where as Rest in Peace operates at Sorcery Speed. As for Surgical Extraction, while Extirpate effects are nice and all, I am personally not an avid fan of playing them as my catch all answers to Dredge, Reanimator, and a whole smorgus board of other graveyard based decks for the simple fact that they are not catch all answers to those decks and because those decks can generally play around them if they have to.
RIP is so OP that it has versatility where you would not ordinarily expect it to. Dredge has dedicated anti-hate cards for RIP, Relic, etc. Their plan is to take it out and go off immediately. Sure, that may work I guess. But RIP's biggest advantage is that it can come in against stuff like BUG, Nic Fit, RUG, UR Delver, etc and it is still an effective hoser against decks that historically could not be effectively graveyard hated. And these decks can't just bounce it and win. They either have to spend a card on it or try to play around it somehow. Playing around it is exactly what D+T wants. It is how the deck wins. So now you are talking about spending a card on it. Abrupt Decay is their best bet, but they still get 2-1'd because all their GY stuff got set back to turn 1 while D+T was not set back at all.
RIP is even a strong hate card against ANT. It's that good.
Leonin Arbiter? I think I stopped running that build since Survival was banned. It was a niche hate card against the meta at the time. You probably meant to ask Fry I assume.Quote:
Originally Posted by _erbs_
Does abrupt decay tries to go to the graveyard before the resolution of it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
My guess was that when BUG plays Abrupt Decay on RIP, it resolves, RIP goes to the graveyard, and abrupt decay too and there are now 2 cards in the grave making Goyf a 2/3.
According to the Gatherer Card Rulings ( http://magiccards.info/rtr/en/18.html ):Quote:
Originally Posted by Tylert
"10/1/2012: If Rest in Peace is destroyed by a spell, Rest in Peace will be exiled and then the spell will be put into its owner’s graveyard."
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTylerGalt
Ok thanks. A 1/2 goyf is not scary :p And we can still use flickerwhisp with vial to sve it :p
Also, I did not mean to imply that RIP was weak against Dredge. Dredge's best bet is to take D+T out before turn 2. If RIP is involved, Dredge is either holding the Nature's Claim right then and there and actually has the mana (probably the biggest factor here) or D+T will be well into a groove before Dredge can recover. It is not in any way similar to Goblins plopping down a Crypt or BUG Extirpating Bridges where the hate is dealt with and you go about recovering to win anyway. D+T disrupts every turn in a variety of ways, so it often beats Dredge game 1, before the extra hate comes in. RIP just happens to be a super strong addition.
@Penguinizer
Yeah i meant to ask Fry.
@RiP
I've been running 2 RiPs since is whats printed replaced the 2 jotun slots for them. With the meta changes are you going to use RiP main if so how many ?. Mirran Crusader is performing well at the moment aswell, given the current meta what changes have you guys made.
As for me i run the following setup:
lands [23]
artifacts [7]
4 vial
1 sofi
1 jitte
1 bskull
spells [4]
4 stp
creatures [26]
4 mor
4 sfm
4 thalia
3 revoker
3 serra avenger
3 mirran sader
3 flickerwisp
2 mangara
I used to run rip's main but i felt mirran had a greater impact over it.
And oh i just want to ask if you guys have tried the old DT route in where it used to have 12 t1 drops, 4 mor 4 savannah lions 4 vials. i tried running dryad militant for awhile and surprisingly it was good, the damage it gave was enough so your other threats can finish off your opponents. but at times when your 4 aggressive drops don't come on turn 1 they are just meh... on mid to late game thus i reverted back to the current conventional list. If somehow it could be mesh somehow or maybe cursed scroll being part of the deck or something.
@_erbs_
I find that the Arbiter hurts many decks, think about how many decks search the library by fetch lands, GSZ, Mystics, and other tutors such as KoTR, Infenal Tutor, Merchant Scroll, Land Grant, etc.
I'm perfectly happy to play a set of Arbiters and only slow down 3 of my 75 cards for sowing down many more of my opponents. Also it's always fun to respond with vialing in arbiter to a fetch... I love doing that one.
The Arbiter gets better with the other mana taxers of Wasteland, Port, and Thalia.
Its true that arbiter is strong during early turns, but i feel it looses its value as the game prolongs. Drawing him mid to late game i feel is like drawing a vanilla 2/2 creature, as compared to other creatures which provides solid contribution no matter what part of the game you draw them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fry
Its like drawing thalia mid to late, i know having another extra mana tax creature is great, but how consistent can you do it. The meta right now i feel is really built on mid to late games so taxing your opponent early while you can't put pressure on them aswell is kinda useless don't you think. Arbiter is a weak body that can't attack with out equips or mother of runes to back it up.
Thats why i asked if you guys had experimented on adding another 1 drop in the form of dryad militant or something just to give pressure early on. Bec. i feel late game DT isn't as powerful as compared to other decks out there at the moment.
I fully agree with this statement. Since Noble Hierarch, and even more now with Deathrite Shaman, it is not easy to disrupt opponents manabase in the early game, and if both your and your opponent's games progress "normally", your opponent will have very good chances of overwhelm you. Of course, this deck has many other tools besides the mana denial plan, but without card selection or advantage, you don't always have the tools you want at the right time.Quote:
Originally Posted by _erbs_
I know this is not something new and I don't mean this deck is bad. I've actually won some tournaments with it in the past. I think, however, that the current "most accepted" build is not well-positioned in the metagame, and new tools and strategies must be tested.