Miracle Control

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Originally Posted by itrytostorm

I notice your list lacks red. Is that because it is unnecessary to you, or you haven't had adequate testing with it?

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The former. I've played a few leagues with it and it didn't feel necessary to me really, but it's working for others (Two more 5-0 lists just got posted, both with red, one with 2 md blasts!!!).

Of course Pyroblast and Blood Moon are very powerful cards, but they don't address our worst matchups (unless Miracles really picks up, then playing Blasts might be necessary). I believe the deck is already strong enough vs fair decks, so making the manabase weaker vs Wasteland (there is a big tension between needing R for Blast and WW for UA) as well as making room in the sideboard for the Pyroblasts which, apart from Show and Tell, are coming in vs fair decks I don't see the red splash as good as they were before. The sb space is dedicated heavily to combo, so unless the Mentors move to the md (as some people are doing), they're what the blasts would be replacing and I'm not happy with that. I also tried Mentors in the md and wasn't thrilled by them, but this boils down to playstyle a lot too.

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Originally Posted by tescrin

I think it's a bit weird to run less than 4 leylines if you're running them. Surviving til you hit 4 land drops seems iffy, especially if this becomes "standard tech" and people play around it. Maybe it's enough in Vegas, but once it becomes "known" thinking you can draw into it seems dangerous. I always try to make "what happens if people know what I'm doing" decisions, because if what i'm doing is any good, they will eventually know anyway.

Anyway, Canonist is brutal. I would wholeheartedly recommend as many as you're willing to run. Infect, Food Chain, Aluren, Storm, Omnishow, Elves, Sneakshow, etc.. all good. If nothing else it makes your counterspells one-sided, like a backwards Defense Grid. Vs. Infect it's amazingly good, due to them being unable to answer any of your answers, so they have to either get 2-for-1'd whenever they do something, or slow roll you. Aluren is pretty funny because if it's in your hand you can just play it in response to them playing harpy [when starting their combo] and they have to pass the turn. I would be mildly worried about Discard, but them's the breaks.

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There might be a cat and mouse game between us and storm for a bit, while we're changing our board plans, they adapt to that, then we switch again. It's quite fun since the online meta moves so fast! Leyline is pretty resilient though, we're safe from discard and can counter something like Echoing Truth or Chain of Vapor with that protection. I suppose their next change will be Krosan Grip as it hits both Canonist and Leyline, but I've got a couple more ideas after that.

Canonist is actually pretty horrible vs Infect, I've learnt it the hard way over the years. Since we're the reactive deck they can simply attack and use Vines as a hard counter with Canonist in play. It's OK vs Food Chain and Aluren (they can still combo off with Canonist in play if they have the right hand, which isn't uncommon). I've tried siding it in and not vs both, the danger of it is that they can still outgrind us. It's fantastic vs Storm and Show and Tell though, yep!

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Originally Posted by Whitefaces

Food Chain:
-2 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Force of Will

+2 Monastery Mentor
+1 Disnchant

This matchup feels really bad, something to address. I didn't like Canonist vs it either very much as they can outgrind you easily.

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From the other side of this match up old miracles best cards were red blasts as they both interfere MP and griffins. So the red splash should improve this matchup. Wear/tear were also ok with 8 MD artifacts and Food chain as targets.

I like your latest list, 2 absents feels right. I've been doing well with food chain in our local league and can afford to try new decks without risking a spot in the finals. I think I'm gonna try your list!

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Originally Posted by Whitefaces

The former. I've played a few leagues with it and it didn't feel necessary to me really, but it's working for others (Two more 5-0 lists just got posted, both with red, one with 2 md blasts!!!).

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Very notably, both lists ran Mentor main with no Entreat.

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Originally Posted by itrytostorm

Very notably, both lists ran Mentor main with no Entreat.

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Yeah, I prefer Mentor from the board, but the card is so insane it's great in the md too.

Fwiw, I think there are a lot of positives to the red splash too, clearly. Only personally do I feel like the reward of splashing isn't there, but others do and are doing well with it, so I urge everyone to try out both with and without if possible.

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Originally Posted by Whitefaces

Yeah, I prefer Mentor from the board, but the card is so insane it's great in the md too.

Fwiw, I think there are a lot of positives to the red splash too, clearly. Only personally do I feel like the reward of splashing isn't there, but others do and are doing well with it, so I urge everyone to try out both with and without if possible.

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I plan on doing a competitive tournament for power Saturday. Usually ~100 players. I plan on writing a report as it'll be the first time I'm playing it in paper. I top 4'd with Bomberman the last time, hopefully I can do as well or better :) Leaning towards the red splash as I've had regulars there tell me :u: is running amok over there.

Hello all! I'm brand new to the forum. I wanted see what you all thought about Mindbreak Trap for the Storm MU... thanks!

Whitefaces, you say that one of the reasons you don't like the red splash is you don't think it helps our worst matchups, just makes our ok matchups better. That's interesting because the reason I wanted to run red was to help what I though some of our toughest matchups were, the grindy 4 color Leovold / Jace decks that can compete with us on card advantage. What do you think our worst matchups are?

I thought the worst matchups were Burn, 12 Post, and decks with both Loam/Punishing Fire, personally.

As for MBT, it is a fine card only in the Storm matchup. You can diversify your hate to make yourself less vulnerable to Cabal Therapy, which can pluck 2 Flusterstorms out of your hand but not a Trap and a Flusterstorm. The problem is that when fighting other blue decks, Flusterstorm is much better. In the Sneak & Show matchup, for example, MBT is awful if an opponent has S&T with FoW backup, whereas Flusterstorm is very good. Against Grixis Delver, you can protect a Terminus with a Flusterstorm to stop their own counterspells: again, Mindbreak Trap is bad here.

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Originally Posted by HandSolo

Hello all! I'm brand new to the forum. I wanted see what you all thought about Mindbreak Trap for the Storm MU... thanks!

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Hello HandSolo, people here are trying hard to make Miracle great again! Welcome to this dynamic thread:smile:

As for your problem, in my opinion, Flusterstorm is a better card when competing Mindbreak Trap in the storm MU. It is a lot more flexible, for example, Flusterstorm can easily counter opponent discard spell in early turns to hide information. But for Mindbreak Trap, alternative cost is only active when several spells are already cast in the turn, which means opponent is more likely to play around this card.

Edit: Moreover, we play 3-4 Snapcaster Mages now, and it is much easier to flash back a 1 mana spell than a 4 mana one:tongue:

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Originally Posted by entreri_fans

Hello HandSolo, people here are trying hard to make Miracle great again! Welcome to this dynamic thread:smile:

As for your problem, in my opinion, Flusterstorm is a better card when competing Mindbreak Trap in the storm MU. It is a lot more flexible, for example, Flusterstorm can easily counter opponent discard spell in early turns to hide information. But for Mindbreak Trap, alternative cost is only active when several spells are already cast in the turn, which means opponent is more likely to play around this card.

Edit: Moreover, we play 3-4 Snapcaster Mages now, and it is much easier to flash back a 1 mana spell than a 4 mana one:tongue:

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Thanks for the reply! I am picking up my third copy of flusterstorm today, it was just a thought I had. Also, I was wondering what the community thought about Runed Halo as SB option.

I am loving the deck, so thanks for all the hard work!

Any thought on adding land tax for card advantage due to the use of basics?🤷🏼*♂️ With brainstorm it could be fun!

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Originally Posted by tescrin

Anyway, Canonist is brutal. I would wholeheartedly recommend as many as you're willing to run. Infect, Food Chain, Aluren, Storm, Omnishow, Elves, Sneakshow, etc.. all good. If nothing else it makes your counterspells one-sided, like a backwards Defense Grid. Vs. Infect it's amazingly good, due to them being unable to answer any of your answers, so they have to either get 2-for-1'd whenever they do something, or slow roll you. Aluren is pretty funny because if it's in your hand you can just play it in response to them playing harpy [when starting their combo] and they have to pass the turn. I would be mildly worried about Discard, but them's the breaks.

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Here's the thing, some players have figured out how to beat Canonist: Rending Volley. Why would Storm players' run such narrow card? I have no idea.

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Originally Posted by twndomn

Here's the thing, some players have figured out how to beat Canonist: Rending Volley. Why would Storm players' run such narrow card? I have no idea.

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I can't tell what part of that is sarcasm, but it's not like storm never had answers. Combust, Sudden Shock, and Abrupt Decay have been things since.. what.. the beginning of legacy? Not to mention Massacre. The idea that Storm is *just now* finding answers for Canonist and friends is asinine. So you can take your smug attitude and sit on it. Are you suggesting that because they have an answer to your hate (pssst.. Chain of Vapor) that you need a better piece of hate? A what.. 2-of in their side? At most? That's not even fetchable with Wish?

It's just as easy to turn that around and say "Some players have figured out how to beat Leyline: Empty the Warrens." Maybe I'm wrong. But if I am, it's not going to be Rending Volley that is the deciding factor.

"Storm did it you guys! They shaved off precisely :1: from a narrow anti-hate-card and that was the deciding factor to make it the best deck! That was all it took! I mean Massacre was :0: and fetchable with wish and that didn't make hatebears go away; but fucking Rending Volley man.. the end is nigh" -twodomn

Well, that escalated quickly.

The current card on my radar is Commit /// Memory. Just seems like a very reasonable replacement for Unexplained Absence.

Ultimately it's always gonna cost more to cast at 4 mana instead of two to three. It does have the value of only one blue mana. It's also acts as an extra counterspell, stops storm triggers, does work with Predict and fights through Boseiju. Ontop of that there is the bonus of a Timetwister.

A six mana memory does have some value. I've noticed the deck hard cast Terminus more frequently than without Top. So it's not a far stretch in niche situations after exhausting all your outs to say a True-Name. You may need to refill with access to four more board wipes.

idk... I only own 2 Tundras. Looking to ease my white mana dependence. Bash away.

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Originally Posted by tescrin

I can't tell what part of that is sarcasm, but it's not like storm never had answers. Combust, Sudden Shock, and Abrupt Decay have been things since.. what.. the beginning of legacy? Not to mention Massacre. The idea that Storm is *just now* finding answers for Canonist and friends is asinine. So you can take your smug attitude and sit on it. Are you suggesting that because they have an answer to your hate (pssst.. Chain of Vapor) that you need a better piece of hate? A what.. 2-of in their side? At most? That's not even fetchable with Wish?

It's just as easy to turn that around and say "Some players have figured out how to beat Leyline: Empty the Warrens." Maybe I'm wrong. But if I am, it's not going to be Rending Volley that is the deciding factor.

"Storm did it you guys! They shaved off precisely :1: from a narrow anti-hate-card and that was the deciding factor to make it the best deck! That was all it took! I mean Massacre was :0: and fetchable with wish and that didn't make hatebears go away; but fucking Rending Volley man.. the end is nigh" -twodomn

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Does it feel good when you try to shove unsaid words onto someone? Do you always try to place label on someone you don't know? Thanks for being childish, cause this thread really needs that. I mention Rending Volley because in one game, I thought I had game won, my Canonist was beating down the storm player and I can protect it via counter magic, and then that storm player played Rending Volley. That's all I have written. You seem to interpret other people's post in the most twisted, mind-bending, diabolic way possible, I'll let people around the world to be the judge.

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Originally Posted by Mzfroste

Whitefaces, you say that one of the reasons you don't like the red splash is you don't think it helps our worst matchups, just makes our ok matchups better. That's interesting because the reason I wanted to run red was to help what I though some of our toughest matchups were, the grindy 4 color Leovold / Jace decks that can compete with us on card advantage. What do you think our worst matchups are?

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I think our worst matchups are Burn, Storm, Food Chain, Lands and in theory Aggro Loam but I've not played it yet. Pyroblast is insane vs FC, but not the others.

I've found the 4c grindy midrange decks to be OK so far, but I've not been able to play much at all this week so my sample is a bit smaller than yours probably, and it's from when the deck was newer so had some help from them not knowing the list. I'm happy to take your word that the matchup isn't as good as I think it is, I'm going to play some UWr over the weekend hopefully.

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Originally Posted by Munchyman

The current card on my radar is Commit /// Memory. Just seems like a very reasonable replacement for Unexplained Absence.

Ultimately it's always gonna cost more to cast at 4 mana instead of two to three. It does have the value of only one blue mana. It's also acts as an extra counterspell, stops storm triggers, does work with Predict and fights through Boseiju. Ontop of that there is the bonus of a Timetwister.

A six mana memory does have some value. I've noticed the deck hard cast Terminus more frequently than without Top. So it's not a far stretch in niche situations after exhausting all your outs to say a True-Name. You may need to refill with access to four more board wipes.

idk... I only own 2 Tundras. Looking to ease my white mana dependence. Bash away.

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Commit//Memory is just a bad card I'm afraid, much too expensive and doesn't do anything we want in the deck. But you can play the deck perfectly fine with just two Tundras :) Replace the third with a white fetchland, it can either be an Arid Mesa or Windswept Heath (assuming you're on straight UW).

On the subject of twndomn vs tescrin, I'm with twndomn. Storm players are playing Rending Volley as a direct reaction to us playing Canonists to beat them, it's narrow but it works (kills all hatebears, inc Leo, fwiw). This is not something to just ignore and carry on playing Canonists imo.

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Originally Posted by Whitefaces

I think our worst matchups are Burn, Storm, Food Chain, Lands and in theory Aggro Loam but I've not played it yet. Pyroblast is insane vs FC, but not the others.

I've found the 4c grindy midrange decks to be OK so far, but I've not been able to play much at all this week so my sample is a bit smaller than yours probably, and it's from when the deck was newer so had some help from them not knowing the list. I'm happy to take your word that the matchup isn't as good as I think it is, I'm going to play some UWr over the weekend hopefully.



Commit//Memory is just a bad card I'm afraid, much too expensive and doesn't do anything we want in the deck. But you can play the deck perfectly fine with just two Tundras :) Replace the third with a white fetchland, it can either be an Arid Mesa or Windswept Heath (assuming you're on straight UW).

On the subject of twndomn vs tescrin, I'm with twndomn. Storm players are playing Rending Volley as a direct reaction to us playing Canonists to beat them, it's narrow but it works (kills all hatebears, inc Leo, fwiw). This is not something to just ignore and carry on playing Canonists imo.

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So Leyline is the deal over Canonist ?

Do you bring it against grindy GB deck ?

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Originally Posted by Nestalim

So Leyline is the deal over Canonist ?

Do you bring it against grindy GB deck ?

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I think online vs irl is different. I'm playing Leylines online at the moment as the meta moves a lot faster, but Canonists in real life. But if you see that your playgroup or a tournament you're going to is 'up to date' with the matchup, then maybe play Leylines irl too. They've been very good.

I haven't had the chance to try them vs GBx decks actually, so I don't know I'm afraid. It's nice vs Hymn, but a horrible topdeck later on. Like I said just now, I've not had the chance to play much this week, but hopefully on the weekend :smile:

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Originally Posted by Whitefaces

I think online vs irl is different. I'm playing Leylines online at the moment as the meta moves a lot faster, but Canonists in real life. But if you see that your playgroup or a tournament you're going to is 'up to date' with the matchup, then maybe play Leylines irl too. They've been very good.

I haven't had the chance to try them vs GBx decks actually, so I don't know I'm afraid. It's nice vs Hymn, but a horrible topdeck later on. Like I said just now, I've not had the chance to play much this week, but hopefully on the weekend :smile:

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Yeah, I don't have much time to play online, can't grind both Mtgo and Gwent. But I have a FNM Legacy each Friday and some tournaments on Saturday, and currently my meta is quite fair (and unfortunatly less populated than before the Top ban, which is funny because I was the only Miracle player).

I play Canonist mostly because there is two Aluren players in my Meta.