Miracle Control

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Originally Posted by Drzed

Well people are talking about adding gitaxian probe so I don't think that my post is too offtopic to not warrant some thoughts.. jvp has always been pretty good in other shells and while we are discussing a completely new iteration of miracles I don't think it's wrong to talk about all the possibile inclusions. I'd like to point out that it is possibile that the old full draw-go style of miracles is not so good anymore (just talking) and that is not out of the world that some big changes are needed to the deck. And if I remind correctly there was some local finish with an esper miracles build at the end of the sensei diving top lifespan that played cabal and jvp.

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You're right, everything deserves to be thought about. I think it was when you transitioned from JVP to Cabal Thearapy that I saw the conversation going off topic. But if others want to talk about adding Cabal Thearapy to the miracles shell they're more than welcome. There is, however, a thread dedicated to Mentor + Therapy, and that's the ESPER Mentor thread.

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Originally Posted by prepare4robots

You're right, everything deserves to be thought about. I think it was when you transitioned from JVP to Cabal Thearapy that I saw the conversation going off topic. But if others want to talk about adding Cabal Thearapy to the miracles shell they're more than welcome. There is, however, a thread dedicated to Mentor + Therapy, and that's the ESPER Mentor thread.

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Yeah sure I don't want to derail the topic.
I was just giving food for thoughts [emoji6]
I think the real point here is what to do with portent. I don't like the fact that even if it enables instant speed terminus it is not really "instant" as u have to cast it on opp upkeep and not when u want. I think the biggest strength of a 1 mana wrath is.. well a 1 mana wrath that put everything on the bottom of the library.
I suggested jvp as it's the best instant speed enabler but it does "nonbo" with big jace so I don't really know. I played the osmanozguney list the day it 5-0 the first time and never had any issue with casting predict aven without portent.

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Originally Posted by Drzed

Did someone tried baby jaces in a more "midrange build"? I have spent a week thinking of something on the lines of a esper mentor with 2-3 termini and jvp seems good with therapy while luring removals for mentor. Therapy is great for our combo matchup. I tried some list but I'm a bit shy to post something so different without giving it an appropriate test.

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So this is a different shell of a deck that what my initial post was trying to hint at, and I want to avoid being just a worse version of a different deck. In my opinion, we should be leveraging what makes us good within our colors, and that is the following: instant speed cheap CA, with build around cost, in Predict, a powerful win condition that can out-muscle the format, Mentor, and a 1 mana wrath effect, Terminus. I understand what you're saying, and it has merit, but it might lead off into a different build. The concept of trying Probe was just a random card, I'm more likely to try Preordain first.

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Originally Posted by btm10

I don't think the full 4 Portent are needed to make Predict work. I actually ran a 2-of Predict in Czech Pile before the Top ban and was pretty happy with it with just 4 Ponder, 4 Brainstorm. I think you might want 1-2 Portent just to make Predict more reliable, but having Predict solves the biggest challenge of running Pyromancer and Mentor, which is consistently having extra spells to make tokens immediately after playing them.

That being said, I'm somewhat suspicious of trying to use the Miracles shell for Mentor rather than being a more dedicated Mentor combo/control deck, especially once you start talking about running Gitaxian Probe (which is all but begging you to run Therapy alongside it). Both Esper and Jeskai have attractive things to off Mentor (it pairs very well with burn), but both also pull you away from a Miracles-style control shell once you start focusing on getting the most out of Mentor rather than on pulling into the late game and using Mentor as 'merely' a win condition.

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Yes Exactly, I want to address that right now we have a deck centered around Terminus and Jace, and I think I would rather have a deck centered around Mentor and Jace instead. We shall see.

Why don't we play 4 terminus? It's the "best" card in the deck. I don't really understand why 3 or 2-1 split of terminus/verdict is better.

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Originally Posted by Drzed

Why don't we play 4 terminus? It's the "best" card in the deck. I don't really understand why 3 or 2-1 split of terminus/verdict is better.

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Some people still do! The reason that I don't is that while it might be among the best cards in the deck, it's a lot harder to setup than it used to be and it's also a lot harder to sandbag it until you need it. Those factors have led me to cutting 1 and playing 3 Monastery Mentors which also help stabilize the board and allow you to pick and choose when you deploy such things.

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Originally Posted by Drzed

Why don't we play 4 terminus? It's the "best" card in the deck. I don't really understand why 3 or 2-1 split of terminus/verdict is better.

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I've been playing for with three Predict. I've always played three Predict even with top. Most of the time it's fine. Sometimes it's s little cluncky. I'd go to a 3-1 split, or 3-0 maybe, but never less than three Terminus.

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Originally Posted by Minniehajj

Some people still do! The reason that I don't is that while it might be among the best cards in the deck, it's a lot harder to setup than it used to be and it's also a lot harder to sandbag it until you need it. Those factors have led me to cutting 1 and playing 3 Monastery Mentors which also help stabilize the board and allow you to pick and choose when you deploy such things.

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Mmm so may I ask you what a list without/with less portent would look like if you where to build one? As i played alot of lists with 1 to 4 preordain and 2 to four terminus just to see how the deck worked in different configurations and I would like to compare it. I played without UA and even with 4 mentor and the shell is still amazing but I can't figure out what's missing. I really like what you playe with 3 mentor 3 terminus and the consistency of a 10-12 cantrip package (like the lists of the gp) but I in my admittedly limited testing preordain seems on par if not better than portent.

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Originally Posted by Drzed

Mmm so may I ask you what a list without/with less portent would look like if you where to build one? As i played alot of lists with 1 to 4 preordain and 2 to four terminus just to see how the deck worked in different configurations and I would like to compare it. I played without UA and even with 4 mentor and the shell is still amazing but I can't figure out what's missing. I really like what you playe with 3 mentor 3 terminus and the consistency of a 10-12 cantrip package (like the lists of the gp) but I in my admittedly limited testing preordain seems on par if not better than portent.

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I just PM'd Prepare4Robots with it but I'll post it here. It has some personal preferences and inspiration from my friend Angelo Cadei (MD Fluster and the sideboard config) but I think it's an excellent starting point post GP:

// 60 Maindeck
// 7 Creature
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Monastery Mentor

// 19 Instant
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Predict
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell
2 Flusterstorm

// 20 Land
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Arid Mesa
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand

// 3 Planeswalker
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// 11 Sorcery
4 Ponder
3 Preordain
1 Council's Judgment
3 Terminus


// 15 Sideboard
// 1 Artifact
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives

// 6 Creature
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Containment Priest

// 8 Instant
SB: 2 Disenchant
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast

List is great. That's not too far from what I was thinking [emoji16]

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Originally Posted by Minniehajj

I just PM'd Prepare4Robots with it but I'll post it here. It has some personal preferences and inspiration from my friend Angelo Cadei (MD Fluster and the sideboard config) but I think it's an excellent starting point post GP:

// 60 Maindeck
// 7 Creature
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Monastery Mentor

// 19 Instant
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Predict
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell
2 Flusterstorm

// 20 Land
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Arid Mesa
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand

// 3 Planeswalker
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// 11 Sorcery
4 Ponder
3 Preordain
1 Council's Judgment
3 Terminus


// 15 Sideboard
// 1 Artifact
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives

// 6 Creature
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Containment Priest

// 8 Instant
SB: 2 Disenchant
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast

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Minniehajj,

What really scares me is the mana base, especially for matchups where our opponent is playing Wasteland and we would like to board in Pyroblasts. One thing that was nice about Wilson Hunter's Mentor Miracles list was having a basic mountain in the SB for these situations. Unfortunately, it seems as though we simply do not have the luxury of an additional SB slot for land these days. What are your thoughts on running a basic Mountain in the main deck over a Volcanic, or perhaps even cutting down to 1 Volcanic and 1 Mountain?

What is the main reasoning of switching Portents into Preordains? Always thought about Preordain as more combo-oriented cantrip, while Portent fits into miracle mechanic a way better.
Also, it is strange to see sideboard for a deck with red splash without Blood Moon. What is the sideboard plan against Lands and all those greedy 4c midrange-control decks that flood metagame nowadays?

I feel like you should definitely be on Portent with Predict. An important thing about both of these cards is that they slowtrip/cantrip even with Leo on the field. Because Leo is a card people are trying to "get you" with, and you're running mass cantrips, it makes sense to run ones that not only play well with your plan (manipulate your opp's draws when you're ahead) but ones that avoid the hate they're trying to bring. Fact is, only Chains and Notion Thief hit Portent/Predict properly, and neither of those are especially popular.

The more you can make Leo a 3/3 baleful strix the better a position I think you're in.

My issue with Portent is that it doesn't help to dig in something you need right now. If you need to draw and play a mentor you won't be able with Portent.

Portent is extremly powerful with Terminus and EtA, but if the plan is to go down 3 Terminus/0 EtA, it might be lackluster.

Honestly, Portent is good in some situation, against Leovold it shines, at enabling Miracle, at locking your opponent draw.

I think a good start is how good it is in general and how important are those situations.

Also, it doesn't exist in foil, big draw-back.

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Originally Posted by Swampfoot48

Minniehajj,

What really scares me is the mana base, especially for matchups where our opponent is playing Wasteland and we would like to board in Pyroblasts. One thing that was nice about Wilson Hunter's Mentor Miracles list was having a basic mountain in the SB for these situations. Unfortunately, it seems as though we simply do not have the luxury of an additional SB slot for land these days. What are your thoughts on running a basic Mountain in the main deck over a Volcanic, or perhaps even cutting down to 1 Volcanic and 1 Mountain?

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So this manabase has been a long standing idea of mine, and it's also to facilitate the possibility of more red cards in the SB if you wanted to play them. The reasoning behind moving down to 8 fetches is exactly as you said. It's just an experiment and the results have been stellar so far, Matthew Chung played this manabase at GP Vegas as per my request, and he absolutely loved it, and he had more red cards like Blood Moon as well. It's to leave options open since the sideboard was literally a first draft.

That being said, I could totally see the concept of a lower number of duals and a higher number of basics in addition to mountain could also be very strong, but a bit less convenient at times, but all of it needs testing :).

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Originally Posted by Mister Full-House

What is the main reasoning of switching Portents into Preordains? Always thought about Preordain as more combo-oriented cantrip, while Portent fits into miracle mechanic a way better.
Also, it is strange to see sideboard for a deck with red splash without Blood Moon. What is the sideboard plan against Lands and all those greedy 4c midrange-control decks that flood metagame nowadays?

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If you go back a page, you'll see my reasoning ;) But the long and short of it is that it's an experiment to see what we can do if we make our deck less... "contraption" like and play with raw good cards instead, and to see how sustainable a card like Predict and Terminus are if you eliminate that Portent aspect of it, or the UA aspect of it.

As for blood moon, Lands often will fold over to a fast, efficient tempo start with Mentor or surgical extraction, and the greedy 4c Midrange Control decks are among the matchups we actively WANT to play against with the core of MD Mentor, Predict, and stuff like MD fluster. Blood Moon is still good ofc, but I'm overall never been able to position the card in a favorable manner and it's variables are all over the place, not necessarily something I'm super interested in. This list is literally just a first draft of testing out a concept, and the stuff like how the sideboard is built and the MD configuration is all definitely up to debate.

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Originally Posted by tescrin

I feel like you should definitely be on Portent with Predict. An important thing about both of these cards is that they slowtrip/cantrip even with Leo on the field. Because Leo is a card people are trying to "get you" with, and you're running mass cantrips, it makes sense to run ones that not only play well with your plan (manipulate your opp's draws when you're ahead) but ones that avoid the hate they're trying to bring. Fact is, only Chains and Notion Thief hit Portent/Predict properly, and neither of those are especially popular.

The more you can make Leo a 3/3 baleful strix the better a position I think you're in.

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See, I think this is a bit of a face-value statement and part of the reason I want to try it out anyway. The slow-trip vs Leovold is something you remember experiencing, but you also have as many experiences, statistically, where Portent finds nothing and you just die to Leovold regardless. There's a non-zero amount of times where both cases happen, and Preordain is a stronger solo card without setup or contorting your deck to play Portent. Chains is not a real argument, and stuff like Leovold and Notion Thief can be hit on the stack via REB or killed later at your leisure with Plows and such, which isn't that bad of a detriment considering the boatloads of card advantage your deck has.

The whole point of my post is to push the boundaries of what the shell allows us to do, and how sustainable all of this is without the concept of a glued together contraption that it is now, with less inherent little synergies and more raw, powerful cards.

I don't feel as though people contort their deck to run Portent; people run Portent because it holds the deck together in a unique way that Preordain didn't. That's assuming five Miracles cards in the deck, with everything instant-speed making the "slow-trip" drawback mostly moot. As you move the deck into a direction that's less "Miracle control" and more "Mentor control" Preordain's stock goes up since you want Mentor and you can only cast Mentor in your main phase. For those running a lot of Miracle cards and instants though, Portent is probably a stronger card because Preordain cannot enable Miracles on its own at all, while Portent does it naturally and we can cast all our spells on the opponents' turn anyway.

You mentioned wanting Preordain for when you NEED a Mentor, and there is no doubt those situations arise, but there's also an an awful lot of times you're behind on board and you NEED a Terminus or Entreat, which Preordain does not facilitate in a timely manner. Basically, if you need Mentor now (or Council's Judgement/any sorcery) you're better off with Preordain, but if you need a Terminus (or any instant), Portent is more useful overall imo. Which you use will probably depend on how the rest of the deck is constructed. But it's all just theorycraft until tested obviously.

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Originally Posted by crowe_1

I don't feel as though people contort their deck to run Portent; people run Portent because it holds the deck together in a unique way that Preordain didn't. That's assuming five Miracles cards in the deck, with everything instant-speed making the "slow-trip" drawback mostly moot. As you move the deck into a direction that's less "Miracle control" and more "Mentor control" Preordain's stock goes up since you want Mentor and you can only cast Mentor in your main phase. For those running a lot of Miracle cards and instants though, Portent is probably a stronger card because Preordain cannot enable Miracles on its own at all, while Portent does it naturally and we can cast all our spells on the opponents' turn anyway.

You mentioned wanting Preordain for when you NEED a Mentor, and there is no doubt those situations arise, but there's also an an awful lot of times you're behind on board and you NEED a Terminus or Entreat, which Preordain does not facilitate in a timely manner. Basically, if you need Mentor now (or Council's Judgement/any sorcery) you're better off with Preordain, but if you need a Terminus (or any instant), Portent is more useful overall imo. Which you use will probably depend on how the rest of the deck is constructed. But it's all just theorycraft until tested obviously.

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It's not that I want Preordain for when I need a Mentor, it's that I believe Preordain to be a better raw card than Portent is, and is better across the more difficult stages of the game, when we are in the process of developing our manabase or forced to find specific answers. Portent is good at gluing the miracles together but I don't know that it is the end-all be-all

I think the best shell for miracles is with standstill (instead of portents or predicts), which i'm playing since the retirement of Top (302 matches). I'll share my current list. I'm having more wins with wasteland version. By the other side, delver matchup is still hard, maybe i have to work this.

Last sunday i played a 47 pp tournament, getting 3rd, only losing to Bug Delver. (=

Check this:

// 60 Still Miracles
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Monastery Mentor
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Standstill
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Ponder
4 Terminus

// 23 Land
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Arid Mesa
3 Polluted Delta
3 Wasteland


// 15 Sideboard
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Crucible of Worlds (maybe From the Ashes is better, but i've cut it when i went to only 4 basics)
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Wear // Tear

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Originally Posted by Stefanogs

I think the best shell for miracles is with standstill (instead of portents or predicts), which i'm playing since the retirement of Top (302 matches). I'll share my current list. I'm having more wins with wasteland version. By the other side, delver matchup is still hard, maybe i have to work this.

Last sunday i played a 47 pp tournament, getting 3rd, only losing to Bug Delver. (=

Check this:

// 60 Still Miracles
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Monastery Mentor
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Standstill
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Ponder
4 Terminus

// 23 Land
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Arid Mesa
3 Polluted Delta
3 Wasteland


// 15 Sideboard
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Crucible of Worlds (maybe From the Ashes is better, but i've cut it when i went to only 4 basics)
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Wear // Tear

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This is a timely post! I've been reading / posting on the UW Landstill thread because I had the same thought. Using Standstill COULD save upwards of four slots if it was able to replace both Predict and Portent. Downside is it's not instant speed. Upside is it messes with your opponents play pattern. Worth seriously considering in my opinion. Stefanogs, any other configurations / learning you can impart? For example, I see you're running four Terminus with ONLY 4 BS, 4 Ponder, 3 SCM, 3 JtMS to control the top of your library. How's that been?

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Originally Posted by Minniehajj

It's not that I want Preordain for when I need a Mentor, it's that I believe Preordain to be a better raw card than Portent is, and is better across the more difficult stages of the game, when we are in the process of developing our manabase or forced to find specific answers. Portent is good at gluing the miracles together but I don't know that it is the end-all be-all

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Not saying it is the end-all-be-all. Testing could show more wins with Preordain. It is a better card in other decks, but may not be in this Miracle-dependant one (but test away obviously). The primary point of Portent, I think, was to be able to neatly set up Terminus when you need it, and the inability to do so consistently is a problem you've stated you've had even with the Portents. With Preordain instead I don't see how the odds of firing off Terminus when needed would improve, so whatever small advantages you're gaining in consistency would have to be leveraged against the loss of effectiveness of arguably your best card. Portent also sets up Predict a little more accurately and sees one more card if you're trying to snipe something. And again, the "slow-trip" doesn't matter as much as it would in some other decks because almost all your answer cards are instants. Exceptions are Mentor, Jace (ideally comes down when the coast is clear anyway), a couple of SB cards, and digging for lands in a couple specific situations. So, to me, Portent versus Preordain largely comes down to how much you value Terminus and Entreat, and Preordain will get better the farther you move from needing those into needing sorcery-speed cards where the drawback of Portent becomes more relevant.

Or, as you've said, perhaps Terminus and Predict will straight up still be practical using Preordain. At the end of the day, have to try and see by testing one version against the other.

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Originally Posted by prepare4robots

This is a timely post! I've been reading / posting on the UW Landstill thread because I had the same thought. Using Standstill COULD save upwards of four slots if it was able to replace both Predict and Portent. Downside is it's not instant speed. Upside is it messes with your opponents play pattern. Worth seriously considering in my opinion. Stefanogs, any other configurations / learning you can impart? For example, I see you're running four Terminus with ONLY 4 BS, 4 Ponder, 3 SCM, 3 JtMS to control the top of your library. How's that been?

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From my tests, i'm 100% sure that terminus is still the best sweeper and we should not be playing with supreme verdict, which in some matchups you barely cast it (any delver, d&t, maverick). My first 62 matches with Still Miracles was with Supreme, but then i switched for terminus.

Well, of course we have more issues to set up terminus without 4 tops, but it still works very well (we have to really think before each brainstorm!). Also, if you play the full set of terminus, there are more chances to just draw it blindly from top or find it from ponder. Maybe it's easier to find 4 terminus with this pieces than to find 2-3 terminus of the last Naked Miracles lists (Andrew, Unfair, Roukas, Chung, MzFroste).