Miracle Control

I agree with crowe_1 about Portent vs Preordain. Preordain is so much worse with Predict and Terminus than Portent is that I think we're getting into the realms where it's almost a different deck.

I tried Preordain at the very beginning before Portent and it wasn't good. I've tried it again recently in a much more Mentor centric shell, but I cut Terminus down to two and Predict altogether because of the dis-synergy.

I don't want to discredit the idea of adding Preordains and the full set of Mentors though, it's probably very powerful, but you need to remake the rest of the deck too.

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Originally Posted by Whitefaces

I agree with crowe_1 about Portent vs Preordain. Preordain is so much worse with Predict and Terminus than Portent is that I think we're getting into the realms where it's almost a different deck.

I tried Preordain at the very beginning before Portent and it wasn't good. I've tried it again recently in a much more Mentor centric shell, but I cut Terminus down to two and Predict altogether because of the dis-synergy.

I don't want to discredit the idea of adding Preordains and the full set of Mentors though, it's probably very powerful, but you need to remake the rest of the deck too.

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Could definitely be the case and could lead be down a different sort of rabbit hole, for sure. But something else can be explored I think.

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Originally Posted by Stefanogs

I think the best shell for miracles is with standstill (instead of portents or predicts), which i'm playing since the retirement of Top (302 matches). I'll share my current list. I'm having more wins with wasteland version. By the other side, delver matchup is still hard, maybe i have to work this.

Last sunday i played a 47 pp tournament, getting 3rd, only losing to Bug Delver. (=

Check this:

// 60 Still Miracles
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Monastery Mentor
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Standstill
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Ponder
4 Terminus

// 23 Land
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Arid Mesa
3 Polluted Delta
3 Wasteland


// 15 Sideboard
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Crucible of Worlds (maybe From the Ashes is better, but i've cut it when i went to only 4 basics)
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Wear // Tear

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My biggest concern with Standstill type strategies is that the manabase cost is extremely high, and while it does contort the way the opponent plays, the manabase cost is really really high. Like, looking at the list above, you have 23 lands, sure, but 6 of those are spells, basically, and the deck is extremely mana intensive to boot.

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Originally Posted by RankaLee

Has anyone thought of going back to RIP Helm Combo with energy field with most of the control package ?

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I've no idea about its viability but Miracles with RiP/Field/Helm top 8'ed a 53-person tournament from last month that was just posted.

// Creature (6)
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Snapcaster Mage

// Instant (19)
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Predict
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

// Sorcery (9)
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Supreme Verdict
3 Terminus
4 Ponder

// Enchantment (3)
1 Blood Moon
1 Energy Field
1 Rest in Peace

// Planeswalker (2)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// Artifact (1)
1 Helm of Obedience

// Land (20)
2 Arid Mesa
2 Plains
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
4 Scalding Tarn

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Mountain
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Council's Judgment
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Rest in Peace

http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD07912W/
This list came 5th in a 39 ppl tournament in Japan. I really think it's interesting but the young pyro looks a bit off. By trimming some cards and adding terminus the list could probably look better... Or the deck could simply be better by being a turbo mentor deck I don't know. The fact is that predict is so good at generating CA that I don't want to cut them to less than 2 even if I don't play portent. Terminus is still absurdly good in the very moment you put 4 brainstorm 4 ponder and a couple jtms in your 60. Before the top ban I loved the list with dazes as even if the card became dead very fast mentor made it read something like "tap 1 opponent mana put a monastery swiftspear otb" and the fact that the CB always resolved in the mirror was huge but I don't now if it deserve consideration now. I don't know what direction to take so I will keep building some piles just to test cards and configurations and see what I get.

Sent from my MI 5 using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Minniehajj

My biggest concern with Standstill type strategies is that the manabase cost is extremely high, and while it does contort the way the opponent plays, the manabase cost is really really high. Like, looking at the list above, you have 23 lands, sure, but 6 of those are spells, basically, and the deck is extremely mana intensive to boot.

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I'm 100% with you. If you're going with this strategy (at least both workshops and wastelands) I'd stick to a two colour manabase. Still worth testing in my opinion.

Everyone, I need your help. Urgently.

Our monthly shop tournament is coming up tomorow. Our shop meta usually is wide open with a fair share of everything, including some mean Chalice of the Void based decks. Tonight I got informed by the friend who would have borrowed me the missing cards for my deck that he won't be able to attend. So I am suddenly plagued by card availability issues, making Miracle Control the only realisitic option, since that was the deck I played before the Top ban.

Even here I do face some restrictions. I was on the mentor-less version and as such do not own and Monastery Mentors. Following this thread I am aware that the Mentor version is considered superior currently, alas it is not an option. I own no Ethersworn Canonists either, and only one Containment Priest. And of course due to the very short term switch I have no opportunity to put any of my ideas to the test prior to the tournament. With these restrictions I settled after some scouring of the web on the following list:

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
5 Island
2 Plains
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island

3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Jace the Mind Sculptor
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Blood Moon

2 Flusterstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Portent
3 Predict

3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
2 Unexpectedly Absent

Sideboard:
1 Blood Moon
1 Containment Priest
1 Council's Judgment
1 Disenchant
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vendilion Clique

The singleton Blood Moon in the main is there to give me something of an out game 1 against otherwise likely horrendous matchups like Lands. It can randomly win me the game against other decks with greedy mana bases as well. Invasive Surgery is in the sideboard since it is better against ANT than a third red blast, and still good against Sneak & Show. I stuck with Unexpectedly Absent for the flexibility it gives. Being Instant is also a plus.

Any suggestions on how to improve the list? More Engineered Explosives between main deck and sideboard? A better plan against combo?

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Originally Posted by Kobal

Everyone, I need your help. Urgently.

Any suggestions on how to improve the list? More Engineered Explosives between main deck and sideboard? A better plan against combo?

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4x Meddling Mage would be useful against both combo and lands.

Has anyone tried Engineered Explosives and/or Council's Judgment over Unexpectedly Absent yet with the Portent build? I'd be curious about your results.

My initial build had a 1/1 split of EE and CJ. Somehow UA ended up being better vs decks like Merfolk, DnT and other slew of fair decks and the fact that it is an Instant ended up making deck feel more mana efficient.

I might replace the Disenchant in the SB with the CJ but that may be it for me.

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Originally Posted by JimmyC27

Has anyone tried Engineered Explosives and/or Council's Judgment over Unexpectedly Absent yet with the Portent build? I'd be curious about your results.

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I've preferred CJ to UA since testing it; sorcery speed hasn't nearly been enough of a downside, and CJ can actually deal with Leovold and TNN. Time walking people feels really sweet, but again, actually dealing with those two cards is enough to tip things in favor of CJ to me.

I'm don't really like UA after some testing. It feels too cute too often and I'm more inclined to play CJ. You are pretty much forced to play 4 predict to make the card work as u can't realiably count on your opponent fetches. In some matchups like d&t relying on a 2 card combo that cost 6 just to get rid of a problematic permanent is too much and I don't want to spend my portent on my opp. Also tnn and leovold as already pointed.

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Originally Posted by prepare4robots

I'm 100% with you. If you're going with this strategy (at least both workshops and wastelands) I'd stick to a two colour manabase. Still worth testing in my opinion.

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Could be controversial and me swearing in the church, but do you really need Mishra's Factory in this list? Honestly? When you've got a few standstills under your belt and fired off your cantrips in between you should be so further ahead on cards that you should be able to just slam a Mentor and ride it home. I might be wrong, but with Mentor, I just don't see the Factory and vice versa.

Regarding preordain and portent I am conflicted. The fact that we don't have a reliable instant speed Terminus anymore in the top, has led me to play the deck in such a way that I can almost always get away with drawing the Terminus naturally. Pretty much making the neat upside of Portent void. I think it really shone in early testing because of the trio of portent, predict and UA. Now that it's starting to come clear that UA is more cute than great, preordain looks a lot more interesting than it did. You can still set up predict with Preordain just fine, but both your draws will be mystery cards so it won't let you set up Terminus that way. When cantripping with Mentor on the table I want my cards right now to continue the chain which is another point in Preordains favor.

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Originally Posted by kentheide

Could be controversial and me swearing in the church, but do you really need Mishra's Factory in this list? Honestly? When you've got a few standstills under your belt and fired off your cantrips in between you should be so further ahead on cards that you should be able to just slam a Mentor and ride it home. I might be wrong, but with Mentor, I just don't see the Factory and vice versa.

Regarding preordain and portent I am conflicted. The fact that we don't have a reliable instant speed Terminus anymore in the top, has led me to play the deck in such a way that I can almost always get away with drawing the Terminus naturally. Pretty much making the neat upside of Portent void. I think it really shone in early testing because of the trio of portent, predict and UA. Now that it's starting to come clear that UA is more cute than great, preordain looks a lot more interesting than it did. You can still set up predict with Preordain just fine, but both your draws will be mystery cards so it won't let you set up Terminus that way. When cantripping with Mentor on the table I want my cards right now to continue the chain which is another point in Preordains favor.

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You need to give a good reason to your opponent to force him cracking Standstill.

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Originally Posted by Nestalim

You need to give a good reason to your opponent to force him cracking Standstill.

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Exactly. So if we are riding the standstill then we might not need Mentor as butter on the bacon. That being said I think Mentor+predict is better than Standstill+threat in terms of raw card power. It's hard to quantify how Standstill warps your opponents game plan.

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Originally Posted by kentheide

Could be controversial and me swearing in the church, but do you really need Mishra's Factory in this list? Honestly? When you've got a few standstills under your belt and fired off your cantrips in between you should be so further ahead on cards that you should be able to just slam a Mentor and ride it home. I might be wrong, but with Mentor, I just don't see the Factory and vice versa.

Regarding preordain and portent I am conflicted. The fact that we don't have a reliable instant speed Terminus anymore in the top, has led me to play the deck in such a way that I can almost always get away with drawing the Terminus naturally. Pretty much making the neat upside of Portent void. I think it really shone in early testing because of the trio of portent, predict and UA. Now that it's starting to come clear that UA is more cute than great, preordain looks a lot more interesting than it did. You can still set up predict with Preordain just fine, but both your draws will be mystery cards so it won't let you set up Terminus that way. When cantripping with Mentor on the table I want my cards right now to continue the chain which is another point in Preordains favor.

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I've changed my mind about the necessity of Portent vs. Preordain. I think Portent is better in a control shell for a few reasons:

1. The times that you cantrip chain into upkeep Terminus still exists, since Portent always creates the delayed draw no matter how many cantrips you sequence afterwards.
2. I said this before the ban when people were testing out 4 Mentor miracles, but I never wanted to play a card based on the power level of making Mentor better, since it stands alone just fine. By this, I mean that the argument of "preordain allowing you to 'go off' with mentor" isn't really sustainable because that isn't at all what's important. That's a rather "win more scenario" and you have to consider your cantrips on how you're using them when you are behind, so this brings me to my next point, which kind of contradicts this one, but bear with me!
3. Preordain is a better raw card than Portent is, from solely a selection perspective. This directly contradicts the point that I'm trying to make, since Preordain is better than Portent when Mentor is in play, but also a better raw card. However, you have to take into account your ability to reason in what Portent is doing since the rest of the deck is dependent on setting it up. So, you can break it down as this:

• Preordain is a good card on its own, but also creates a great scenario when going off with Mentor.
• Portent is not super great as a raw card, but it controls the rest of the deck and sets up your engine.

You essentially need to figure out what you value most, and that controls how many copies of Predict/Terminus you're able to run, and which direction and style you're shifting to.
This valuation system might create a bit of a schism in deck development, and you might be moving towards a different deck than what most would consider "Miracles" or a "control deck" and that is totally okay!

For now, however, I'll be playing the aforementioned list I posted, but with Portents since I still value my ability to setup my deck's engine more than I do for "winning-more" with Mentor. There is a cost associated with it, certainly, but I think that I dismissed the "contraption" aspects of the deck too fast. It's up to each individual person on what style and concept they prefer more.

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Originally Posted by Minniehajj

I've changed my mind about the necessity of Portent vs. Preordain. I think Portent is better in a control shell for a few reasons:

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Well said. I agree (though perhaps time will prove my intuition/theorycrafting wrong!), and am certainly more interested in keeping Portents than adding Preordains. As you rightly noted, you can Portent, miss a Terminus, and then Brainstorm/Ponder to try to find one. Yes, it costs more mana and cards, but when it's Terminus or die, the cost isn't very relevant.

Portent is also good with Jace -- not only in manipulating the opponent's deck, but also in searching for a Terminus (Portent > shuffle > Jace +0 looks at 6 cards to find a Terminus for the upkeep draw trigger).

Portent also seems a bit better (IMO) with Unexpectedly Absent over Council's Judgment / Engineered Explosives, just because we have more 'removal' spells to hit off a Portent that we can actually cast on the opponent's turn (miracle'd Terminus, Swords, UA). Moving to sorcery-speed generic answers (CJ, EE) does make Portent seem a bit worse. How much, I'm not sure. And it's just theory as I haven't had the opportunity to test a Preordain build (spent three nights this week playing a Portent + UA build to get some practice in before a tournament tomorrow).

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Originally Posted by Minniehajj

[*]Preordain is a good card on its own, but also creates a great scenario when going off with Mentor. [*]Portent is not super great as a raw card, but it controls the rest of the deck and sets up your engine.[/LIST]

This valuation system might create a bit of a schism in deck development, and you might be moving towards a different deck than what most would consider "Miracles" or a "control deck" and that is totally okay!

For now, however, I'll be playing the aforementioned list I posted, but with Portents since I still value my ability to setup my deck's engine more than I do for "winning-more" with Mentor. There is a cost associated with it, certainly, but I think that I dismissed the "contraption" aspects of the deck too fast. It's up to each individual person on what style and concept they prefer more.

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Very well articulated, couldn't agree more. Preordain is definitely much better on its own but Portent smoothens what we do with our deck.

Hipsters of the Coast/Eternal Durdles did a podcast interview with Sam Roukas about his 23rd place finish at GP Vegas with Topless Miracles.

Soundcloud

At risk of sounding stupid (and possibly outdated), but I have always felt that the power level of Portent was that of Preordain unless it is evaluated in either the context of Storm of all varieties or Dig Through Time based decks. I would never play Portent in SnS, but I do think it is an extremely reasonable card in Omni-Tell.

My reasoning is that if you're playing a deck with 9-10 fetchlands anyway, why wouldnt Portent be better than Preordain? In the concrete if you're seeing two cards and priced into seeing a third card blind with Preordain, what is wrong about Portent (clearly the slowtrip part) when the benefit is rejecting three cards you dont want to see and seeing a blind fourth card instead? Unfortunately, because Portent is a slowtrip, I eventually found favor in UA only because it is an Instant that could be played off Portent's slowtrip compared to a superior card like CJ and EE, I also value opportunistic mana efficiency thanks to UA being an Instant. More often than not for me UA has more often been played more of a Time Ebb/Memory Lapse than a hard answer which in itself can sometimes be problematic. I am not unhappy with UA, but I understand why it was a reasonable include to begin with after having played a 1/1 split of EE and CJ maindeck since the Top banning. Better yet, I argue that Cunning Wish might even be a better card to dovetail with Portent than CJ or EE.

TL;DR: Impulse for a single blue mana sorcery is very good. Play eight of those, if you can.

Also, am testing Cunning Wish right now to see if that is better than UA. I highly doubt it, but I want to see for myself.