[Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)

What do you think of Echoing truth as a 4 or 3 of in place of the 5th-8th drawspell?
At first glance this may sound silly, but I have found out that it’s very easy to compensate the card-disadvantage created by force spike and Echoing truth through cards like FoF and Call the Skybreaker. My idea is to play 3 CtS along with another win-condition. Running 3 CtS assures that one of them is in your hand on turn seven. With 16 counters and 4 bounce I wonder if it is possible to cut all of the boardsweepers? So I could add Back to basics and Morphling in order to go aggro more easily.

This sounds like "Turbo Morphling" in the past: speeding up a T3 Morphling via Monolith and U open, then counter everything for 4 turns and win.

Pretty straight and cool, but I think not doable without acceleration like Monolith in Legacy. There's going to happen too much until you can power out a fast Morphling.

What's the reasoning for not running Intuition for Accumulated Knowledge anymore?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by P.S.

What's the reasoning for not running Intuition for Accumulated Knowledge anymore?

---

Hm, maybe because if that's your only target it's 5 mana for draw-three.

You can Intuition EOT of Turn 3. Then AK for 3 cards EOT turn four. That's p. much the same as just casting FoF EOT on turn 4. No? In addition to running FoF it's an option still, I think.

Plus, if you're running 4x AK odds are you'll draw one early. Which means you can Intuition for AK's for 3 cards then cast the other AK for four cards.

I suppose if you're running 3 CtS, Intuition wouldn't be too bad of an addition. You'd have two Intuition targets, CtS & AK, making it slightly worth it? I don't know, seems janky to me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by P.S.

You can Intuition EOT of Turn 3. Then AK for 3 cards EOT turn four. That's p. much the same as just casting FoF EOT on turn 4. No? In addition to running FoF it's an option still, I think.

Plus, if you're running 4x AK odds are you'll draw one early. Which means you can Intuition for AK's for 3 cards then cast the other AK for four cards.

---

To quote myself on card draw again:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jthanatos

The big bombs are Fact or Fiction and Ancestral Visions. I prefer Fact as it isn't a terrible late game top deck and digs deeper. Also, it combos well with the rest of my draw suite and with CtS. Visions is an awesome early game play, and has the advantage of keeping your opponent in the dark on your new resources. Once again, its a meta/personal preference call.

The early draw usually falls into one of 4 sets: Accumulated knowledge, brainstorm + fetches, impulse, and think twice. AK is an oldie but a goodie that gives some serious draw power late game, but is the slowest of the options. brainstorm + fetches digs deep, gives you filtering ability to send back dead cards, and the ability to splash cards to shore up weaknesses in MUC such as enchantment and creature removal. However, it also opens you up to stifles and nonbasic hate, things that MUC traditionally uses to its advantage by making them dead cards for our opponents. Also, brainstorm is less than ideal when you don't have a fetchland or shuffle online. Impulse digs the deepest, but never generates card advantage. Think twice is my personal choice, as its flashback ability usually prevents opponents from countering your cantrip, and it draws the most cards of the bunch, save Accumulated Knowledge. Even then, you have to cast all 4 AK's to draw more than Think Twice. The two biggests downsides I have found to Think Twice is how slowly it gets the draw engine rolling (7 mana for 3 cards and usually 3 turns, vs 4 mana for 3 cards in 2 turns with AK) and that, when combined with CtS, it makes graveyard hate a viable sideboard option for all those dead cards against us. In the end, once again, it's a personal call.

---

The biggest problem with Intuition in my mind is how it functions as nothing but a setup card. While drawing 3-4 cards on turn 4 is pretty darn awesome, MUC is not set up to take full advantage of anything else Intuition can do in other decks. We can grab sweepers or control pieces with it, but at the cost of losing 2 others. It just seems like the slot taken by Intuition would be better served as more control pieces or more countermagic.

On the echoing truth front, my biggest worry of not having draw outside of FoF is going to make the early game very rough. We can no longer smooth through bad topdecks. On the flip side, a big pile of countermagic with a good kill we can rush to seems interesting. Maybe try Kira to be able to keep your opponent shut out with bounce, counters and B2B until it is too late?

1 Call the Skybreaker would be enough 'cause you want it in your grave anyways (you can wish for Call+2 Lands for the same effect as 3 Calls). That said, considering Call is a 7-mana 5/5, I don't see why you'd ever play it in this deck. MUC finishers are supposed to also be able to stem the bleeding and be the last resort "stops that army"-card and 7 mana is really too late for such.

Morphling would've worked pre-M10, but losing his ability to kill...well, anything kinda made him worse so the only sensible finisher remaining seems to be Meloku and even that's pretty mediocre (though chumping the giants in the format indefinitely could at least vindicate his existence). I mean, if you need to just kill and are late enough to play Call the Skybreaker, you can make enough illusions to trivialize spot removal and counter mass removal anyways.


But really, if you play over 1 Call the Skybreaker, you're doing something wrong. It's strictly there to guarantee inevitability and is going to be horrible in every game where you haven't already won. In my humble opinion, the card shouldn't be 100000 feet from the deck (it isn't even good enough for Standard...), but that's just my opinion.

To people who have played with CtS beyond slight testing: In what actual game scenarios in real games have you won the game with Call the Skybreaker when a Morphling/Meloku wouldn't suffice? Have you ever been in a position you won thanks to CtS but couldn't win with the alternatives? On the other hand, have you ever had CtS grin back at you as you cry and thrash at 5 mana needing an answer to that Mongoose NOW? That's been pretty much my experience with the card.

I don't feel like quoting everything that has already been said about this topic.

A discussion of IBA's MUC build which included CtS brought up a good bit of discussion. Here are the problems I had with CtS directly.

A stronger analysis of CtS's role and comparisons to pre-nerf Morphling are here and here.

While I think Morphling is no longer an auto-include (like FoF/FoW/Counterspell), and it doesn't help us stabilize as effectively against fat creatures, it is still one of the better options in our very limited cardpools of blue wincons. I still mostly agree with this argument I made pre-nerf:

Quote:

---

Going to time in game 3 happens really does happen (although, this is most common in control vs control matches). This is one of the risks of bringing a hardcore control deck like Draw/Go to a tournament. It is a damage race at times. Forcing through a win condition and winning on the spot is sometimes the only shot you have of winning the match. I know you've had times where it was make or break, you had Morphling in hand and 5 land, you've dropped it defensively, stabilized the game with just him, and then won before your opponent could recover. Few win conditions can claim to do that.

In control matches, I don't think MUC has a difficult time surviving to the late game. The question is really can you win before it is too late. Morphling is about winning while you have the opportunity to do it. It doesn't waste time, and that still matters. Is Morphling unbelievably faster than CtS? Not by a crazy amount, but by a few turns absolutely. Those few turns can definitely make the difference.

Most importantly: Morphling abuses the temporary windows of stability that MUC creates, and CtS really doesn't. Once you've untapped with Morphling, you've probably just won. There are games that you only have a short window of time to drop a threat before an opponent could recover, and Morphling does a better job in this role than CtS. Morphling crystallizes your stability and allows you to convert to the aggro role more effectively than CtS. CtS has inevitability, but if you've played with the card, you'd know it really does take a lot longer to win the game than several alternatives.

With all that said, I'm not completely against CtS. The card is very good. I just don't think CtS dethrones Morphling in most cases. If you really are less concerned about going to time or have less need for the tempo-oriented plays to be made from cards like Morphling, then by all means, play CtS.

---

The nerf made Morphling equivalent to the power level of CtS. Where I once thought CtS had no place, I'm willing to say it deserves 1 slot. Now, we must find other ways to be avoid the need for tempo-oriented plays, as we can no longer rely upon Morphling as strongly.

CtS mitigates the value of these strategies against MUC's wincons:

• Discard
• Removal
• Permission

By consequence, CtS also improves the odds have retaining counterspells in your hand for other concerns.

Luckily, the strongest wincon for MUC isn't even a creatures, it's shackes.




peace,
4eak

The way I see it at the moment:

I like “Turbo Morphling”, too. I think the modern version of it is MUC with Sower of Temptation. It doesn’t run acceleration, but the threats are cheaper. You disrupt your opponent heavily with BtB and cheap counterspells like force spike, stifle and kill him before he can recover.

1. Echoing truth helps in the early-game, too. I think it helps more than a cheap draw, if we can assure dropping a land each turn. But I don’t think dropping a land each turn is a problem, if we raise the land count to 25.
2. Additional draw is only needed for the late game. AV doesn’t improve the early-game, either. Think Twice is in fact a lategame card.
However, I think we don’t need additional draw because of CtS. CtS is not carddisadvantage, but cardadvantage, for he turns the lands we draw into threats.
3. You have to play a land each turn, but you can stop at seven lands, and up from there you can use the lands for CtS-tokens.
4. CtS is not just a win-condition, but a board-control card like Vedalken shackles.
He can’t stop an army, but some threats.
Morphling was a board-control card, too; but through M-10 he became mere a win-condition.
5. I doubt CtS is mana-intensive, because of the following reason: You don’t have to play more than a CtS-token a turn. It is not needed to play a token and a Counterspell a turn.
6. Furthermore, your hand-cards are limited; I highly doubt you can generate that much card-advantage that you are able to play two cards a turn, if 1/3 of your deck are lands. This may possible with 4 FoF and 4 AV…but…

I agree that Morphling abuses the temporary windows of stability better than CtS. However, those windows are created by BtB, Vedalken shackles or by a large amount of cardadvantage, which is difficult to generate. Morphling is worth running, if you run BtB, too. Though, if you have stabilized the game with the help of Vedalken shackles, Morphling is a win-more.
And a large amount of card-advantage is very difficult to achieve.
The thing is: CtS can stabilize the game way better than Morplhing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tea

The thing is: CtS can stabilize the game way better than Morplhing.

---

By the time you're "stabalizing" with CtS, you could have already played Morphling and swung twice with him, or "stabalized" the game at least two turns earlier.

Shackles, B2B, and Propaghanda are meant to stabalize, as you've pointed out in your post, Morphling is meant to win.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dembones

By the time you're "stabalizing" with CtS, you could have already played Morphling and swung twice with him, or "stabalized" the game at least two turns earlier.

Shackles, B2B, and Propaghanda are meant to stabalize, as you've pointed out in your post, Morphling is meant to win.

---

CtS beats control decks. And to say Morphling comes down 2 turns earlier than CtS is just misleading. Morphling essentially costs 6, and your opponent better be pretty much empty handed before you even cast him at that point. You can't always count on your opponents being nice and letting Shackles and Propaganda hang around, and Back to Basics isn't always a back breaking play. CtS gives you the ability versus control to just say "I am going to play a 5/5 flier each turn until you can't deal with it anymore."

And one more time, I never advocate running only 1 win con in your MUC, I think 2 different creatures + shackles/sowers is the minimum. But one of those win cons should be CtS, it is just that good.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jthanatos

CtS beats control decks. And to say Morphling comes down 2 turns earlier than CtS is just misleading. Morphling essentially costs 6, and your opponent better be pretty much empty handed before you even cast him at that point. You can't always count on your opponents being nice and letting Shackles and Propaganda hang around, and Back to Basics isn't always a back breaking play. CtS gives you the ability versus control to just say "I am going to play a 5/5 flier each turn until you can't deal with it anymore."

And one more time, I never advocate running only 1 win con in your MUC, I think 2 different creatures + shackles/sowers is the minimum. But one of those win cons should be CtS, it is just that good.

---

I've run 3 shackles, 2 sowers and 2 efreet before which I kind of liked, but I removed the sowers for another powder keg and CtS.

About CtS...
I guess it's playable, but I feel it's slower than we should be. I've had issues with opposing Shackles, recurring EE, that kind of thing. You guys also make it sound like you always have the ability to Retrace it, when I've gone long stretches where I didn't find a land, or I wanted to use a few of that 7 mana elsewhere.

With all that said, there are definitely worse cards for the deck.

CtS...
Here are my arguments against it. It might be inevitable, but graveyared hate makes it not so. Opponents running Echoing Truth kill it's effect and you just might be running yourself out of lands.

My suite of "le-kill" includes mostly old time favorites, but a couple others have been added.
1 Razormane Masticore
1 Rainbow Efreet
1 Vendilion Clique/Venser (can't decide on the "flashy" options each of which are nice)
1 Jace Belerren
2 Vedalken Shackles

Ok, a little about why they are good. RazorCore kills any creatures that get through, and continues to kill creatures that get through while swinging for 5 and blocking with 5 toughness. Rainbow Efreet is almost immune to removal and can even permanently remain out of the game. Vendilion Clique and Venser win games quickly because they disrupt the opponent and supplement your other win-cons quite well. Jace Belerren wins independantly of your life total and draws you cards. Vedalken Shackles generates card advantage, psuedo CA, tempo, and a win-con.

About draw. I personally still love me some predicts cause they are 1/3 chance to drop an island in the yard netting you two cards and either way, they could always drop an artifact to be recurred by shackles and brainstorm no longer needs fetches. Next come Fact or Fictions, they are amazing, I run 4. Disrupt is like force spike 5-6 and draws you a card. And I already explained Jace.

Well, in my testing I’ve never run out of lands for CtS.

What do you guys think about Rimewind Cryomancer? I found him in my teammates junk collection. Seems like a stifle every turn, a win-con, and a good blocker to boot.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bowvamp

What do you guys think about Rimewind Cryomancer? I found him in my teammates junk collection. Seems like a stifle every turn, a win-con, and a good blocker to boot.

---

He is interesting, but only being able to do activated makes him less exciting, as he is only half a stifle. Also, 4 mana for a 2/3? Why not run Azorius Guildmage for the same ability and same clock or run Phyrexian Ironfoot if you want a blocker that can kill stuff.

The biggest draw back to my eyes is not protecting himself and not swinging the game. If you look at most of these MUC lists, creatures that cannot protect themselves in some way instead bring the game back to our favor, such as Sower.

But hey... at least you could pitch it to Force.

The other half of the stifle is what? Triggered abilities rarely come up.

Guildmage takes the same amount of mana for the first activation, and it just grows from there.

Ironfoot is definetely not the best blocker for three mana you could come up with is it? Serendib Efreet would like to have a word with you.

He protects himself by stopping cards that would kill him. (Deed) Or hindering the opponents plan enough to win (fetches).

And winning is just 10 turns of swings. That's 3 more than what it would replace. (Clique/Venser)

He's good because he fits well in any situation, not for just one use.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bowvamp

CtS...
Here are my arguments against it. It might be inevitable, but graveyared hate makes it not so. Opponents running Echoing Truth kill it's effect and you just might be running yourself out of lands.

---

If my opponent boards grave hate against me only because of CtS I'm gonna go "Hooooray!". And who plays Truth?

It is not the best Wincon when you want to win the game in exactly 4 turns (I still think Morphling is the most efficient option when it comes down to efficient KILLING, unfortunately not stabilizing anymore thx to M10 rules), but it fills the roles morphling lost or never could fill:

a) chump blocking and/or almost always trading 1 for 1
b) dodging ANY form of removal
c) "Fof-immune": how often did I have to care if I really could allow Morphling going to the grave? This problem is gone with CtS.

Most of you suggest running one CtS. Why not running three of them and playing “Dragon, go” every game? As an alternate win-condition I run one rainbow efreet. In a build with 4 Nev Disk, she is better than Morphling. With Echoing truth, you can bounce Nev Disk in response to its activation getting it once more. I’ve cut Think Twice, because TT and CtS don’t interact very well, as they are both very expensive. Moreover TT is not needed, since CtS gives us enough lategame power.