[DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

I actually wouldn't be surprised at all to see burn doing well at the GP. It's very cheap and can steal wins against any deck. Chill is really good but very narrow. Misstep and spell snare are great, assuming you are hard casting misstep. Discard is great too as it typically saves you at least 6 damage. But you need to kill them quick enough so they don't just draw enough damage to win afterwards.

I find that the best way to battle show and tell or natural order are to never let them resolve. Between discard and counters it isn't incredibly hard, but a progenitus in play is pretty much unbeatable. Jace can answer Emrakul if you get him in fast, which usually involves slowing them down for at least 4 turns. The midrange creatures in those decks see the bigger concern IMO.

Wow, in game 3 of the SCG finals Samuel Swisher made one of the worst plays of magic I have ever seen. I felt embarrassed for him. Clearly, he should be congratulated for making 2nd place and making a bunch of money. However, playing a 4/5 goyf when your opponent has 4 islands and a shackles online and all of your 6 lands can't untap because he has back to basics out.

Yea that was pretty awkward. Postboard against that deck he probably has 5 three drop outs to the back to basics (2 Grips and 3 Deeds), and he taps his mana to ensure that he won't be able to kill it, and by the way gives his an opponent a beatstick to kill him with. Rough.

In other news, I went to a local Legacy event (pretty small) and took it down (4 rounds, cut to top 4, so 6 total rounds of magic). I lost to Dredge 1-2, but I beat Burn, Charbelcher, GWb aggro (G/W aggro + Bob, NOT junk because there was no hand disruption), Metalworker, and 4 color Landstill. I ran the following.

//Creatures
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Tombstalker

//Planeswalkers
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//Counters
4x Force of Will
3x Mental Misstep
2x Daze
2x Spell Snare

//Draw/Discard
4x Brainstorm
2x Ponder
4x Hymn to Tourach

//Removal
2x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Smother
1x Go for the Throat
1x Threads of Disloyalty

//Land
4x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Polluted Delta
4x Underground Sea
2x Bayou
2x Tropical Island

//Sideboard
2x Pernicious Deed
2x Null Rod
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Thrun, the Last Troll
2x Llawan, Cephalid Empress
2x Extirpate
1x Consuming Vapors
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Ghastly Demise


Several of these cards were more to see them in play than a firm belief that this is the best deck, as I'm just trying to see a lot of different configurations before Providence.

- The Pulses were great all day. Pulse is one of very few playable cards that can straight up kill jace without attacking, which is looking more and more relevant these days.
- I only drew the Threads of Disloyalty twice, and both times it sucked (but it was game 1s in matchups where it did nothing). I took a single goblin token from an empty the warrens for 12 tokens, and chumped, buying myself a turn, and I took a Putrid Imp once my opponent had already resolved it and was able to discard a Grave-Troll to it. I didn't draw it in any of the matchups it might've been good in, but I'm not convinced it makes the cut
- Thrun was great vs Landstill, and would be good vs the deck that won today's open, but still might not be good enough to take a spot since he does nothing against the rest of the field
- Jace is really, really, really good. I knowhe's not great vs Merfolk, but against a lot of the rest of the field he is quite good. He even won me a game against Charbelcher once I stopped him from going off super early, Jace took over the match.
- I'm pretty much on the two Tombstalker bandwagon at this point. I've played with Cliques, they just don't cut it. I won several games off of swinging with Stalker where Clique just wouldn't have done it, and I'm gonna take my chances with Bob.
- Spell Snare was great. I know it can get misstepped, but it counters so much of the field right now that I really, really, really like having it. Especially since it counters Standstill.

So yea, thats a little bit of random info, take what you will from it.

i am quite new to this deck, on of my thought was, why not play 4 missteps and spell snares in place of daze, did anyone try this allready?, if yes what are your conclusions?

Playing Daze, even as a two-of, is often beneficial. This is due to opponents playing around it even when you don't have it in your hand.

I've made my counter package 4 FoW, 4 Misstep, 3 Spell Snare. I keep debating if that should be 4/3/4 instead, since Spell Snare realistically counters more amazing cards than Misstep does, but whenever I start thinking that way somebody resolves a Lackey or Aether Vial on me. Maybe 4/4/4, but I don't know what else I could cut for a 12th.

Daze can be very beneficial, but it typically is really bad on the draw. I tend to side it out pretty much every game I'm on the draw except very specific circumstances, and eventually decided that I didn't want a card that I side out more often than keep in. But I may change my mind by Saturday.

Creature selection seems to me like it is the biggest point of contention for this deck. Options we've seen discussed:

Goyf
Tombstalker
Terravore
Clique
Sower
Confidant

All have very good arguments for their inclusion, but Goyf is the only one that seems universally accepted. Play 4.

Tombstalker is the most aggressive remaining, but tends to shrink your Goyf, and is crippling when bounced. Also does not play well with Confidant. He is an amazing threat when landed on turn 3/4, and will win the game if you have some counters for their removal. Definitely the top choice if you're trying to kill them as fast as possible.

Terravore is going to be the biggest creature on the table unless they have Emrakul, and sometimes even that isn't true (I had mine to 18/18 against Bant). Double green is a pain in the ass, and you typically don't want him out early which makes the deck less aggressive. Trample is amazing though, as I can't count the times that I have a Goyf or two just getting constantly chumped by Goblins or some other little guy, when Terravore laughs in the face of that. Trample is one of the biggest arguments that this card has for a maindeck slot.

Clique provides a look at your opponent's hand and potentially removes a serious problem card from it. Against redundant decks like Merfolk it won't matter, since most of their cards do the same thing anyways. But against combo or control decks it can be huge. Flash and flying are great as well, as they severely limit the ways your opponent can answer the threat. Downsides are that it's a 3/1, which isn't a great clock and it dies to things like Lavamancer and Bolt.

Sower I do not really think deserves a maindeck slot, though it can turn the tide when your opponent is starting to pull ahead. It really only shines when your opponent is playing something similar to you, or an Emrakul. In both of those cases, they are likely to have a way to kill the Sower and make you have wasted a card. I don't advocate these maindeck.

Dark Confidant seems to be the most contested creature for the deck. His benefits are obvious, drawing 2 cards a turn is often game winning against anything but the most aggressive decks out there. He will definitely lose you some life, more so if playing Tombstalker. It doesn't happen often, but sometimes you will just lose a game due to his ability. More often though you will win a game due to his ability. He isn't a very aggressive threat, but pretty much any deck sees him as a must answer card, which allows your other creatures to be treated with less respect. I've definitely had opponents use creature kill on Confidant when I have a 7/7 Terravore right next to him. I feel like you need to decide which way you're taking your deck to choose whether or not to include Confidant. If you want to win early, I wouldn't bother with this guy as he isn't very aggressive and you're not going to get as much card advantage out of him. But if you're shooting for the long game, he probably makes more sense than Tombstalker in the deck.

Well that's just my opinion on all the currently potential creatures that get tossed around in here. Just wait until somebody throws Morphling in there though, that will be a wonderful day.

I won yesterday 24 player tourney with this list

Terho Seppänen - TA

//MAIN
3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
1 Vendilion Clique

2 Snuff Out
2 Go for the Throat
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
3 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Brainstrom
3 Ponnder
1 Life from the Loam

//SIDE
3 Krosan Grip
3 Spell Pierce
2 Extirpate
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Darkblast
1 Perish
1 Maelstrom Pulse

I beat spiral tide, merfolk and u/r painter in first swiss rounds. Each game finished 2-0 and i take 2 ID to top8. In top8 i beat bant, same u/r painter as in round3 in swiss and g/w fauna in final game.

Meta breakdown:
4 Dredge
3 Zoo
2 Team America
2 UR Painter
1 GW Fauna
1 UR Dreadnought
1 Eva Green
1 Bant Aggro
1 Sneak Show
1 Hightide
1 Aggro Loam
1 Demigod Stompy
1 Reanimator
1 Merfolk
1 Goblins
1 Burn
1 Death and Taxes

About Jace for GP providence:

It seems like almost everyone is on the Jace bandwagon for this deck now. I still like the 4 Goyf / 4 Stalker / 1 Clique configuration though. What is Jace good against though? He's good against Landstill but I don't see many people running that deck in a long tournament and could be easily avoided by not being in he draw bracket. He's seems bad against Merfolk, Goblins, fast combo decks.

People seem to be mostly cutting Stifle and Clique for Jace. I think Stifle is awesome in the bad matchups, and almost never dead game 1. It can easily be sideboarded it out for more specific cards and then your opponent will play around it. A huge weakness of this deck is the mana base, and Stifle can hit Wastelands. A lot of people that I've played against me try to hit the green lands to keep me off Tarmogoyf mana so they won't waste the early Seas and then it's easy to Stifle the Waste if necessary. It'll feel weird for me playing without Stifle, they've always been great.

I admit that I haven't tested Jace much and don't play Standard so I haven't been exposed to him as much as most players. Can anyone sell me on playing Jace at the GP, or I should stay on my 'old' list? It was posted a few posts back but here it is again. I'm thinking of cutting the Spellbombs in the SB and try to fit in Revokers and maybe a second Pulse for that Edict.

Creatures -9
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Vendilion Clique
4x Tombstalker

Spells -28
4x Stifle
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Mental Misstep
2x Daze
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Go for the Throat
4x Force of Will

Artifacts -2
2x Engineered Explosives

Lands -21
4x Underground Sea
1x Tropical Island
2x Bayou
2x Polluted Delta
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland

Sideboard -15
3x Pernicious Deed
2x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Consuming Vapors
1x Diabolic Edict
2x Darkblast
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Llawan, Cephalid Empress
2x Duress
1x Perish

I would suggest cutting something in the main for a mid-late game trump card -- either Sylvan Library or Life from the Loam. You want something that can give you the edge if you get into topdeck mode.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wcm8

I would suggest cutting something in the main for a mid-late game trump card -- either Sylvan Library or Life from the Loam. You want something that can give you the edge if you get into topdeck mode.

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Thanks for the advice. I don't know if Sylvan Library is so good in topdeck mode as it does nothing the turn it comes into play and I don't have that much life when in topdeck mode usually. I mostly seem to want to topdeck Ponder/Brainstorm into threats. I ran one Library before and was rarely happy seeing it so I cut it.

Loam seems interesting and I have considered it before. I never played it though so I'm not sure what impact it would really have. Is bringing back a Wasteland and 2 Fetchlands that gamebreaking? Only seems truly broken with Brainstorm, and if I'm in topdeck mode I've probably used it already or am ahead. I don't see other cuts than a Ponder or a Stifle for it and that would hurt the early game and imo Ponder is still good late game.

For what it's worth I don't really go to topdeck mode often with this deck. If I did I'd rather have Jace than Library or Loam too I guess... I will never use a Ponder early for no reason and will do everything in my power to keep Brainstorm open for when I can maximise its power. I've spent quite a few games sculpting a hand like Brainstorm / Misstep / Stifle while my opponent frantically tries to deal with my turn 3 Goyf or Stalker.

On another topic, what do you think about devoting sideboard slots to control (xStill, Counterbalance)? Forget about it and focus on aggro, combo and midrange decks? I already have many cards I am very happy with that I can bring in for multiple matchups, and only Llawan is there solely for Merfolk, which I expect to play against a lot and have a difficut time with. So to keep the best possible matchups across the board, should we attempt to beat control by using cards like Maelstrom Pulse and Phyrexian Revoker that can kill a Jace and still come in handy in other matchups? Bring in more discard like Duress that is good against combo and control? Use specific cards like Thrun or Bitterblossom that can single-handedly win you the game if drawn at the right time against the right deck but will be pretty narrow otherwise? I really wish I had 20 slots...

a little bit offtopic, but with all this recent scg success, how TA is still not a deck to beat?

Against counterbalance deed should be enough out of the board, against landstill, i dunno what to do. If you can keep their standstills from resolving then library or loam should break them.

Goddick, I liked your list a lot from a couple pages back. Could you possibly provide a brief sideboarding guide? Especially regarding what you would do vs. a deck like Merfolk -- would you recommend any changes? I've been testing loam over sylvan and it has proven to be very strong.

Yeah I'm not sure either what is best to bring in for a super heavy control deck like landstill or MUC. Nothing in my current board looks strong, though I think resolving a Confidant has a good chance of being GG.

Creatures
4xTarmogoyf
4xTombstalker

Counters
4xForce
4xMisstep
3xDaze

Disruption
4xStifle
4xHymn To Tourach

Draw
4xPonder
4xBrainstorm
1xLoam

Removal
2xGo for the Throat
2xSnuff Out

Lands
4xUnderground Sea
2xTropical Island
1xBayou
9xFetch
4xWasteland

Sideboard
2xGhastly Demise
1xGo For the Throat
1xPulse
2xJace
2xSower
1xLife from the Loam
2xPernicious Deeds.
2xSpell Pierce
2xNihil Spellbomb

Sideboarding:

The general idea is to board into a super board control deck in all of the aggro/midrange matchups where you expect to play atrition postboard

Merfolk:
-4Force
-4Misstep
-4Stifle
+Everything but spell pierce and spellbomb

I am not quite sure what the last card to bring in or keep in is, probably just a force or a misstep, the list changed by an extra misstep the day before the tournament. They bring in submerges so the postboard plan is to try to avoid committing creatures to the board untill you have hymned them or can afford the tempo loss. Jace is god-awefull preboard but actually becomes plausible in the postboard plan as you have alot more removal to sweep the way for him. The plan relies on the fact that most merfolk lists are without standstill nowadays. Without standstill you can win handily postboard, if they do have standstill it is still uphill and i would probably keep force/ board in spell pierce.

The sideboarding for aggro and midrange matchups is nearly the same though what you board out changes a bit, spell pierce is quite good against decks playing jace and zenith for example. (i.e. -4 force. -4 Stifle -3 creatures or daze depending on how low their curve is, +all 11 non spell pierce, non spellbomb cards). The plan is to avoid playing creatures untill you have hymned them or can afford to have it plowed/misstepped, Sower is fine here as it comes late enough that you can generally pave the way for it by baiting or sandbagging a misstep.

The plan is really good but relies on you to have those 11 spots in the board, i.e. you don't have rocom for llawans and such. This is generally fine as you mow down most combo/unfair decks like they were virtual byes. Landstill is definately a problem though and i haven't tested the matchup so i am uncertain how to play/board it.

Possible changes:
Most of the maindeck is a bit of a sacred cow given that you chose to play old-school without confidant. If you play with confidant it is quite a different deck (and one in which i would prefer to run visions as my engine).

Stifle is a bit underwhelming, one idea could be to play maindeck spell pierce as all
the midrange decks start playing zeniths which make them usefull in non-spell matchups. It also provides an answer to Jace, Standstill and hymn which are all quite the problem for the deck.

Another option could be to run spell snare, they are just a bit underwhelming in alot of matchups as the key cards have shifted from 2 cc to 3 and 4cc. It is very usefull against counterbalance, thopter foundry and standstill though.

I would thus consider testing +2-3 spell pierce main and then making room for a 5th removal or a 2nd loam/1st jace

Loam has been insane for me, running 2 main is certainly not out of the question and it is brutal against BUG landstill, though not quite as much against the new GerryT monstrosity.

The general sideboard is awesome and you shouldn't fiddle too much with the numbers in the role assignment though individual cards could change, moving pierces main would make room for more control hate for example. Sowers, Deeds and Jaces were very awesome in their particular 2 offs, but were only possible due to the 6 spot removals which keep the ground clear long enough for you to develop. This removal suite could change though, running 2 off pulse could for example give more outs to jace.

I hope this answers your questions;) Otherwise just ask and i will provide more. The biggest part of the deck is to see it as a full 75 card deck. Against combo and control you play the tempo deck of their nightmares which is Team America's traditional strength, against aggro and midrange you board into a "landstill-lite" which they have a hard time outgassing in the long game, particularly if they don't expect it and play around stifle and daze.

I literally felt like many of my matchups were unloosable and my 2 losses came to dredge and the eventual winner with landstill.

Something I've been wrestling with lately is the inclusion of stifle. It seems to have lost its appeal and strengths in the last year or so. Decks are now running more lands, so the possibility of manascrew is less; it now feels like this card helps us win our already good matches, but does nothing against our bad ones. I've been running lists similar to the ones posted above, but with either Thoughtseize or Spell Snare in the place of Stifle. I think Thoughtseize might have a slight edge, but Snare acts as insurance if you lose the die roll. Also, Snare is never dead late game against an Goyf/Hymn/etc on the stack, whereas Stifle loses its power after turn 3-4.

So far, my Countersuite looks like this:
4 Fow
4 MM
4 Spell Snare
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce

YMMV, but due to the low threat density, I'm not comfortable running a lower amount of counters. Honestly, it is very difficult for most decks to resolve any backbreaking spells, in almost any stage of the game. The only spell worth tapping out for is a turn 2 Hymn, as long as you can bluff a daze or misstep.

As far as disruption goes, GftT is absolutely terrible. We'd be running smother back in the day if that was what this deck wanted. I stick by 3 Snuff Outs and 1 Darkblast, with extra spot removal in the board. Ghastly Demise/smother/GffT are probably the second best choices, listed in order. At least Smother hits Mishras Factory, and only 2-3 creatures realistically exist in Legacy that smother misses.

Wow, Goddik, you posted that as I was typing mine. Lets grab a drink sometime. Speaking of Loam, I agree that it is probably way better than Library. Anyway, here's my list:

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [R] Underground Sea
2 [U] Tropical Island
2 [U] Bayou
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
2 [M10] Ponder
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [NE] Daze
3 [MM] Snuff Out
1 [RAV] Darkblast
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (3)
4 [NPH] Mental Misstep
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [FNM] Smother
SB: 2 [A] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [WWK] Dispel
SB: 2 [NE] Massacre
SB: 2 [OD] Ghastly Demise
SB: 1 [AP] Pernicious Deed

So you play only 8 win conditions with no way to recur them back from a dredged loam? Seems awkward.

GFT is awesome because it gives you an out to confidant and tombstalker, both of which you desperately need to kill. It also lets you board out force in these matchups which is also essential. Having to keep in force just for tombstalker is reallty bad. Snuff out is really good, but it sucks to draw multiples and you need removal that can kill both of those 2.

Ghastly Demise is a sweet 2 off in the board, but don't run more. They get incredibly awkward with tombstalkers if you draw more of them and there are decks against which you want removal but don't want to board it in. (Junk comes to mind).

I am not personally a fan of darkblast as i feel like it is too conditional, i can see the pull though and can't honestly say i have played enough with it to disregard it completely.

In general a nice diversified removal suite is awesome in the deck