[Archetype] CounterTop

Wow, there's just too much to say about all of this.

Someone needs to come up with a decent main list that is solid against most decks (whether it's aggro/aggro-control/or combo); a list that is capable to win from any deck. I'm tired of reading all the different countertop/bant aggro threads without any specific lists or results. I don't think we can call countertop a tier 1 deck right now, without knowing a specfic list that does great in general (like reanimate, zoo, goblins..they don't need all those tired discussions we have, because they have 1 list that has been tested thoroughly against the rest of the field, with solid results. Maybe 2/3 cards may differ from their lists (or run in different numbers), but with countertop it's really confusing and not clear at all, which is why I don't think we can call it a tier 1 deck (too many variation is a bad sign to me).

What are the best cards to run in countertop?. All the discussions of running NO/PRO or the planeswalkers..... Do we run Ponder? Do we run Qasali or Trygon Predator? Do we run Firespout with a Volcanic Island maindecked or not? Do we run 3 Tropical Islands or 4? Do we run 2 Tundra or 3? All these things are very important to know. It already starts with the mana base.

@Deady

this list does it quite good:

7 fetch
1 island
1 forest
1 plains
3 tropical island
3 tundra
1 savannah
1 dryad arbor
18

The manabase: I like all of the basics one time because of wasteland and against aggro
(like gobbs & merfolk) it's good if you can have 1 plains to PTE/STP.
The only problem I allways have and still have is the one forest, I don't really want to play it allways...
You can also go with firespouts, then the manabase goes as I think -1 tundra + volcanic and then one volcanic island side,
but I really prefer Dueling Grounds because it wins your games against aggro and
Normally I always play 19 lands (what's also better) but because I play 4 ponder and 2brainstorm 18 is enough^^

Okay, then the rest:
4 noble hierarch (mana)
4 tarmogoyf (beater)
4 rhox war monk (I play it 4x because we got alot of aggro in Belgium, you can also go for 3 RWM and 1 kitchen finks)
1 progenitus (I like the NOPRO package more because it lets you win games that you not always win)
2 trygon predator (Why not qasali: qasali let's you win races when have goyf vs goyf but you'll already have enough exalted, also ask yourself how many times that you sec qasali? Like one time a tournement. Also predator does damage and qasali doesn't attack alone normally^^
Against merfolk you just can win with a predator)
15

2 ponder (in the old days I've played 2 qasali in this spot but ponder gives you even more cardadventage so)
4 brainstorm
3 daze (4 ain't needed because it's a bad card lategame also)
3 natural order
4 force of will
4 swords to plowshares (removal)
4 counterbalance
4 sensei's divining top
28

Yes, I play one card extra because I do think that 2 predator is beter than only one, but that's my choice.

Then the sideboard:
1 empyrial archangel (it let's you win games against ANT & gobbs, and many people think that we can't loose against ANT but it's quite a hard matchup. gobblins is one of the hardest matchups that we have so this one is also good for it, also against merfolks it does help)
1 wheel of sun and moon (so a good card against reanimator and dredge)
1 tormod's crypt
1 reliic of progenitus
2 PTE (extra removal for matchups where it's needed)
2 krosan grip
2 dueling grounds (best thing ever :P, against merfolk, dredge, gobblins, zoo, just decks with much creatures it just let's you win a harder game^^)
3 ethersworn canonist (against ANT, I would never play Gaddock Teeg because it counters you're own spells, force-NO)
2 spell pierce (extra counter against alot of decks, maybe I go 2 canonist and 3 spell pierce)

So the matchups (that are presented much here in Belgium): I'm not going to do it with % because idk them really..

@Zoo: normally a win if you gor progenitus and you can also win with a goyf and counter shit they have with cb-top
@gobblins: before sideboard bad matchup because they go so fast, after sideboard it's like 50/50. If you can make it to mid-lategame you'll probably can win with cb-top and NO but it stays hard.
@reanimator: if you can counter their key-cards you'll probably win or with cb-top. After sideboard is a wheel of sun enough to make them die :P
@dredge: hard game before sideboard after if you got some graveyard removal it's probably a win or a dueling grounds
@merfolk: this is a dying deck in Belgium but still some people play it. It's a hard matchup but I think still 50/50. the main problem is the LOA that needs to die or countered otherwise we are death^^
@bant: just who gets the better cards or plays better... It's really all much of the same lists
@ANT: not bad matchup but they can go fast and then you'll have it hard. And a cb-top on the field is not enough, they can play true it easy..
@Rock: not a bad matchup but they can go hard and remove alot and get a fatty on the board so

against other decks I didn't really tested I think because you don't really see them at tournements...
If you want to know something els let me know

Some minor poinst I would like to make in regards to defending the use of Qasali Pridemage. First, I use 2 of him (plus 1 Predator) instead of Ponder, because I feel that we need more 2cc cards for counterbalance. 4x Goyf, 3x Daze, 4x Counterbalance just isn't enough in my opinion. Second, while people rarely sac QP, he is crucial against Jitte, a card which, while not broken against us, can be the determining factor of a game. Trygon predator can only rarely stop JItte. With the rise of UW Tempo, Jitte is definitely a card to consider. Just my two cents.

BantFTW:

Thanks for your post, that was really helpful!

Funny you mentioned about the 1-off Savannah; I think it's a good move for the deck as well (instead of 4 tropical island...in the end it's all about those little details that make the difference).

Your list seems solid and I like your sideboard/explanations as well. For me it's pretty hard going from straight aggro to a countertop build; verry, very different strategy and playstyle.

I like the Dueling Grounds; good choice!!!

Qasali vs Predator seems like a never-ending discussion; I'll playtest them both to see which one is better. I think Ponder adds soimething to the consistency of the deck though.

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Originally Posted by BantFTW

@Deady

this list does it quite good:

7 fetch
1 island
1 forest
1 plains
3 tropical island
3 tundra
1 savannah
1 dryad arbor
18

The manabase: I like all of the basics one time because of wasteland and against aggro
(like gobbs & merfolk) it's good if you can have 1 plains to PTE/STP.
The only problem I allways have and still have is the one forest, I don't really want to play it allways...
You can also go with firespouts, then the manabase goes as I think -1 tundra + volcanic and then one volcanic island side,
but I really prefer Dueling Grounds because it wins your games against aggro and
Normally I always play 19 lands (what's also better) but because I play 4 ponder and 2brainstorm 18 is enough^^

Okay, then the rest:
4 noble hierarch (mana)
4 tarmogoyf (beater)
4 rhox war monk (I play it 4x because we got alot of aggro in Belgium, you can also go for 3 RWM and 1 kitchen finks)
1 progenitus (I like the NOPRO package more because it lets you win games that you not always win)
2 trygon predator (Why not qasali: qasali let's you win races when have goyf vs goyf but you'll already have enough exalted, also ask yourself how many times that you sec qasali? Like one time a tournement. Also predator does damage and qasali doesn't attack alone normally^^
Against merfolk you just can win with a predator)
15

2 ponder (in the old days I've played 2 qasali in this spot but ponder gives you even more cardadventage so)
4 brainstorm
3 daze (4 ain't needed because it's a bad card lategame also)
3 natural order
4 force of will
4 swords to plowshares (removal)
4 counterbalance
4 sensei's divining top
28

Yes, I play one card extra because I do think that 2 predator is beter than only one, but that's my choice.

Then the sideboard:
1 empyrial archangel (it let's you win games against ANT & gobbs, and many people think that we can't loose against ANT but it's quite a hard matchup. gobblins is one of the hardest matchups that we have so this one is also good for it, also against merfolks it does help)
1 wheel of sun and moon (so a good card against reanimator and dredge)
1 tormod's crypt
1 reliic of progenitus
2 PTE (extra removal for matchups where it's needed)
2 krosan grip
2 dueling grounds (best thing ever :P, against merfolk, dredge, gobblins, zoo, just decks with much creatures it just let's you win a harder game^^)
3 ethersworn canonist (against ANT, I would never play Gaddock Teeg because it counters you're own spells, force-NO)
2 spell pierce (extra counter against alot of decks, maybe I go 2 canonist and 3 spell pierce)

So the matchups (that are presented much here in Belgium): I'm not going to do it with % because idk them really..

@Zoo: normally a win if you gor progenitus and you can also win with a goyf and counter shit they have with cb-top
@gobblins: before sideboard bad matchup because they go so fast, after sideboard it's like 50/50. If you can make it to mid-lategame you'll probably can win with cb-top and NO but it stays hard.
@reanimator: if you can counter their key-cards you'll probably win or with cb-top. After sideboard is a wheel of sun enough to make them die :P
@dredge: hard game before sideboard after if you got some graveyard removal it's probably a win or a dueling grounds
@merfolk: this is a dying deck in Belgium but still some people play it. It's a hard matchup but I think still 50/50. the main problem is the LOA that needs to die or countered otherwise we are death^^
@bant: just who gets the better cards or plays better... It's really all much of the same lists
@ANT: not bad matchup but they can go fast and then you'll have it hard. And a cb-top on the field is not enough, they can play true it easy..
@Rock: not a bad matchup but they can go hard and remove alot and get a fatty on the board so

against other decks I didn't really tested I think because you don't really see them at tournements...
If you want to know something els let me know

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How does Empyrial Archangel help against ANT? Loss of life =/= damage :P I do like how she can be a time walk against aggro in the right conditions however.

Also, I think it'd be worth trying out a couple of Meddling Mage in the sideboard. Canonist is nice against ANT, but MM does a good job of catching other problems (Loam decks, Grindstone, helps against Reanimator, etc).

Finally, ugghhh @ that 61st card. I really don't think an extra Predator is worth it. Is the Savannah really better than another Tropical Island? Because you should always be aiming for two lands that produce blue early on to cast Counterbalance and the first land should still be an island for Daze.

Now that Progenitus/Iona are so popular and thus expectedwith a gazillion of answers, I'm really not a fan of the NO combo finish in Bant Countertop.

I find Jace much more impressive in the late game slot. Actually a resolved Jace with a creature in play generally means GG. Plus it can be pitched to FoW in early game, it does not require a creature against control or with the coutnertop lock and finally it does not require a blank Progenitus slot. Also Jace beats Iona hard.

To do so, I've cut the ponders in order to have a strong man plan and to reduce a bit the 1CC curve (16 is enough). The list I've tested lately has no random slots so far. The changes I consider right now fopr the MD are -1 Rhox and -1 Qasali for +2 Trygon which blocks fliers and has evasion to carry the exaltation. I like the fact I'd play 1 more 3CC spell and Also the deck plays a lot more control than regular Countertop, so that exaltation is not that much a strength. The SB has been put together without much thought but anyway I feel it's good up to now.

// Lands
1 [ON] Forest (4)
1 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [B] Tropical Island
2 [A] Tundra
1 [U] Savannah
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [PT] Island (1)

// Creatures
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ALA] Rhox War Monk

// Spells
3 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Brainstorm
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile

Why is Jace, the Mind Sculptor being considered in the NO/Pro slots? Jace doesn't win the game in a couple of turns and does not help our bad matchups.

Zoo decks will simply burn him.

Merfolk decks have Islandwalk and can easily hit him.

Goblin decks can also simply burn him out ala bolts as bolts are becoming more popular in goblin decks.

We don't need him versus reanimator since we have counters to match theirs and counter top to keep them in check. Jace also does very little to Storm decks.

Jace does have cool abilities but unless there is some important detail I am missing I do not see the advantages of using Jace over the NO/Pro combo.

@Dragonfireheart: same oppinnion :P

- meddling mage or canonist is your own choice^^
- archangel helps against aint because they need 4-5 more combo^^

@maverick: It's true the 2 qasali and 1 predator, but I think that we don't really need it, you can play it but it's your choice...
In my meta there aren't many players who play jitte these days so I don't really realy need the qasali"s, ponder gives me more cardadventage and I want that much miore. It's also true that we don't have enough 2 slots but yeah^^

And what's also a nice thing is that you can play one dueling grounds mainboard, I did it some tournements and it helped when I had it so^^

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

Why is Jace, the Mind Sculptor being considered in the NO/Pro slots? Jace doesn't win the game in a couple of turns and does not help our bad matchups.

Zoo decks will simply burn him.

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Against zoo, it's 5 loyalty before I pass priority.

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Merfolk decks have Islandwalk and can easily hit him.

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How can you resolve NO against Merfolk, if I'm not even able to STP their lord ? And NO is bad anyway in this MU with mana denial and daze/pierce. In this MU I prefer a blue card becasue it pitches to FoW, and that's about their only use.

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Goblin decks can also simply burn him out ala bolts as bolts are becoming more popular in goblin decks.

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1/ Bolt does NOT kill Jace. Learn this.
2/ Bolt is not popular in Goblin
3/ Goblin is not popular
4/ NO is godawful against Gob since it does not block pilly and replaces a blocker with another blocker. Once more, in this MU at least Jace can be pitched to FoW.

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We don't need him versus reanimator since we have counters to match theirs and counter top to keep them in check. Jace also does very little to Storm decks.

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Jace is great against Reanimator. You can't deny it. You can state you win the coutnerwar with your 8 counterspells but you won't. Your analyse relies on playing counterbalance turn 2 with a lucky topdeck.
Jace is also better than NO against combo.[/QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by BantFTW

meddling mage or canonist is your own choice^^

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They do not serve the same purpose at all... Meddling mage is for the combo MU obviously but also for naming krosan grip, natural order, ... depending on the MU. It's really a very strong card once you know how to set it.

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- archangel helps against aint because they need 4-5 more combo^^

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You'll have to explain this better, because Archangel does not prevent life loss. Just damage. Period.

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@maverick: It's true the 2 qasali and 1 predator, but I think that we don't really need it, you can play it but it's your choice...
In my meta there aren't many players who play jitte these days so I don't really realy need the qasali"s,

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Qasali's first use is definitely not jitte. More like vial, counterbalance, chalice, Bitterblossom, ... Well equipments too, but really it's not focussed on that at all.

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ponder gives me more cardadventage and I want that much miore. It's also true that we don't have enough 2 slots but yeah^^

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Ponder does not provide any card advantage.

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And what's also a nice thing is that you can play one dueling grounds mainboard, I did it some tournements and it helped when I had it so^^

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Are you serious? Dueling ground MB ?

If you would go without NOPRO then, then go 2 jace+2 elspeth+1 rafiq, this is indeed also quite good :P...
Also, I asked a judge and you get 2 damage so you prevent with archangel...
I keep it with ponders :P.

Dueling ground is good when you play with Progenitus lol,I played it some times mainboard because I expected alot aggro.
And then you see decks against you like gobbs 2x, merfolk 2x and 3x zoo...
Like uwhyeah zoo is easy wihth progenitus.
gobblins you can win if you know how to play it and wich creatures you need to kill.
And merfolk is hard because they can go really fast and won that one time^^

But yeah it stays your own choice.
Also, could 2 mystic and 2 jitte be good maindeck in a cb-top shell?
Want to know what your awnsers are at this one lol :)

lmk plz

I'm not denying that Jace is good against reanimator: I was simply arguing that he isn't needed.

Also, I never said bolt kills him, I simply said he can be burned out.

Also, what makes Jace better than NO/Pro against combo?

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

Also, what makes Jace better than NO/Pro against combo?

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-) Pitches to Force.

-) If you tap out to play NO, you don't improve your situation in any way vs combo. Whereas with Jace, you at least get a free BS to find Force or anything else.

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Originally Posted by Philipp2293

-) Pitches to Force.

-) If you tap out to play NO, you don't improve your situation in any way vs combo. Whereas with Jace, you at least get a free BS to find Force or anything else.

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Alright, I suppose that is a good point.

Maveric78f, I'm not sure I understand your point on the mana denial of Merfolk for NO/Pro: don't we run nobles just for that reason? Jace is pretty cool but god damn is he expensive.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

Why is Jace, the Mind Sculptor being considered in the NO/Pro slots? Jace doesn't win the game in a couple of turns and does not help our bad matchups.

Zoo decks will simply burn him.

Merfolk decks have Islandwalk and can easily hit him.

Goblin decks can also simply burn him out ala bolts as bolts are becoming more popular in goblin decks.

We don't need him versus reanimator since we have counters to match theirs and counter top to keep them in check. Jace also does very little to Storm decks.

Jace does have cool abilities but unless there is some important detail I am missing I do not see the advantages of using Jace over the NO/Pro combo.

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NOPro doesn't really help the bad matchups sometimes either unless you get it really early. With neutral to good board position, it's epic. With poor board position, it's often just a dumb 10/10 that they're going to swing through. Against combo, it's nice to help end the game faster, but the fact of the matter is, you won't be swinging until turn 4 at the very earliest anyway. But when you do pull it off, it's totally awesome.

Jace is only exceptional against decks that run Iona. So I'm not really defending it all that much. It is pretty awesome card advantage/quality though. It just doesn't really change board position either. Also, I really hate seeing Jace as a 3 of. Maybe a 2 of, but I'd like to see some Elspeth up in this bitch if you're going to go the Planeswalker route.

BantFTW, Tendrils of Agony causes you to lose life. Damage is loss of life, loss of life is not damage though. So...MY EYES THE GOGGLES DO NOTHING!

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Originally Posted by chokin

NOPro doesn't really help the bad matchups sometimes either unless you get it really early. With neutral to good board position, it's epic. With poor board position, it's often just a dumb 10/10 that they're going to swing through. Against combo, it's nice to help end the game faster, but the fact of the matter is, you won't be swinging until turn 4 at the very earliest anyway. But when you do pull it off, it's totally awesome.

Jace is only exceptional against decks that run Iona. So I'm not really defending it all that much. It is pretty awesome card advantage/quality though. It just doesn't really change board position either. Also, I really hate seeing Jace as a 3 of. Maybe a 2 of, but I'd like to see some Elspeth up in this bitch if you're going to go the Planeswalker route.

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The thing about NO/Pro is that it gives you the option to drop a game ending creature should the opponent take too long in killing you due to you disrupting them. None of the matchups in which NO/Pro is bad is Jace any better. If anything, we should be considering Elspeth, Knight-Errant over NO/Pro since many of the matchups that are hard for us get easier with her.

Hi All,

Just got back into M:TG after years of absence ... Last played M:TG back during Mirage, Homelands, Alliance expansions. Am extremely fascinated in combining CounterTop with Painter's Grind. Was wondering what your opinions, suggestions and/or comments are on this deck?

4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
4 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Counterbalance
2 Daze
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Swords to Plowshare
4 Enlightened Tutor

4 Glacial Fortress
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
4 Hallowed Fountain
2 Academy Ruins
2 Celestial Colonnade

Sideboard:
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Wrath of God
2 Disenchant
2 Pithing Needle
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Circle of Protection: Red

I tried running it without the CounterTop component inserting Hydroblast / Blue Element Blast in place of the Counterbalance and with only 2 Sensei's Divining Top. It was working nicely at that time. I'm just worried that I do not have any 3 or 4 casting costs to cover it under Counterbalance although most spells under Legacy are 1 or 2 casting costs.

Appreciate your assistance.

As has been stated previously, this thread isn't very useful due to the large amount of variance in the archetypes. I've taken the liberty of splitting off controlling, non-Progenitus CounterTop builds. The primer for which can be found here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ead.php?17534-[Deck]-CounterTop-Control

I propose that this thread be closed, and someone start up a similar thread in DtB for NO-Countertop.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Malakai

As has been stated previously, this thread isn't very useful due to the large amount of variance in the archetypes. I've taken the liberty of splitting off controlling, non-Progenitus CounterTop builds. The primer for which can be found here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ead.php?17534-[Deck]-CounterTop-Control

I propose that this thread be closed, and someone start up a similar thread in DtB for NO-Countertop.

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I don't understand why we need to make a separate thread for this arch-type. Why not change it from [DTB] CounterTop to [ATW] Countertop? Since there are so many variations of decks using counter top it seems narrow to only talk about the NO/Pro variants.


The deck you are talking about (NO/Pro Countertop) is more along the lines of Bant Aggro:

http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?ty...&format=Legacy

Most of the decks discussed in this thread have the typical Goyf, Counter-Top, some combination of RMW/Noble/Pridemage and then NO/Pro or some planeswalkers thrown in as finishers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

Most of the decks discussed in this thread have the typical Goyf, Counter-Top, some combination of RMW/Noble/Pridemage and then NO/Pro or some planeswalkers thrown in as finishers.

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Exactly my point. Those decks are Natural Order Top decks (whether the NO deckbuilders decide to keep NO seems to be in debate right now). I personally want nothing to do with playing Noble Hierarch, Rhox War Monk, or Natural Order. Midrange aggro with a control backup plan and a combo finish is not the same as playing a control deck.

The point is this thread has become unwieldly, and at this point no development is taking place. It needs to be broken up into smaller, more focused threads so that people are actually talking about the same thing.

Jace can bounce Iona naming white. This is often relevant.