It's even better material for them than it's for us. Their estabilished version already runs Dark Ritual, and they already take the risk with Negator. It's almost an auto-switch.Quote:
Originally Posted by pblol
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It's even better material for them than it's for us. Their estabilished version already runs Dark Ritual, and they already take the risk with Negator. It's almost an auto-switch.Quote:
Originally Posted by pblol
My solution to tendrils style combo has been a nifty little enchantment called Oppression, which can land turn 1 if you're playing ritual, and is basically impossible for them to fight through, because everything they play is sorcery speed.Quote:
Originally Posted by sporenfrosch1411
As for running Wasteland, it's a bad idea if you're running 4 Cancelor. Just not very reliable.
Guys Ive been testing this mbc of mine a couple of times with positive results in our local tourneys and always in the top 8:tongue:
//LANDS (21)
15 Swamps
3 wasteland
2 Bojuka Bog
1 Volrath's Stronghold
//CREATURES (14)
4 Abyssal Persecutor
2 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
//REMOVAL (16)
2 Duress
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Go for the Throat
4 Diabolic Edict
//OTHER (10)
4 Dark Ritual
2 Pyrexian Arena
2 Ratcet Bomb
2 Damnation
SB:
3 Engineered Plague
1 Ratcet Bomb
2 Sadistic Sacrament
2 Extirpate
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Null Rod
2 Sudden Spoiling
Discard is not good enough disruption on it's own - you need watelands to make your discard effective. If you're worried about black mana you can always run an Urborg Tomb or 2.
Waste has become too easy to play around. If you're running 3-4 Phyrexian Chancellor + 4 Gatekeeper, a couple of Urborgs isn't enough to make up for that. Waste hardly even counts as a land at the point. It's kind of like Daze. Great if you manage to make it work on the early turns, but becomes situtional and can be played around easily enough, but regardless, it's dead in toward the mid/late game. If I had to choose between 4 Waste vs. 4 additional threats or removal, I'd pick the latter. Don't forget that Waste has serious price, just like Daze, and it's even weaker vs Noble Hierarch. If I were to run a colorless land with a BBBB creature, I'd just run Volrath's Stronghold.Quote:
Originally Posted by bokwinkle
I really really do like this deck concept, I will have to build it one day.
Comments and criticisms on my present list:
Lands - 21:
20 Swamp
1 Bojuka Bog (helps reach a saturation point when additional GY hate is sided in. Is the CiPT too much even as a 1-of?)
1 Volrath's Stronghold
(Are urborg tombs and wastelands worth it, or does this enable enemy wastes too much? I'm assuming the latter)
Creatures - 17:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Phyrexian Canceller
2 Phyrexian Revoker (rarely ever disappointed to see this card)
Spells - 22:
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Innocent Blood
3 Cabal Therapy (less good without persecutor?)
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Smother
3 Bitterblossom
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
Sideboard (need the most advice here):
3 Faerie Macabre (reanimator, semi-useful versus the key engines in dredge but not enough on its own)
3 Dystopia (enchantress / bant / randomly helps versus elves)
3 Spinning Darkness (removal vs zoo, tribal, bant, etc)
3 Engineered Plague (additional tribal hate)
2 Yixlid Jailer (better than, say, tormod's crypt? Better vs dredge in many ways, worse against reanimator, not sure here)
1 Phyrexian Revoker (additional key artifact hate, could warrant a 2nd in the board for a max of 4, opinions?)
Thanks in advance!
Cabal Therapy IS less good without Persecutor. Hymn/Duress is better. Bitterblossom is less good without Cabal Therapy.
Also, Hymn is straight up broken. Please play four copies. I also think both Dark Ritual and the 4th Canceller warrant playing. Lastly, what with the one ofs? You can't tutor for them and they seem slow. Otherwise, list looks awesome.
Bitterblossom being less good without therapy may be true, but is it enough to ditch BB entirely? I know in my experience that saccing the tokens for cabal therapy has been gravy, but hardly the only legitimate use for BB. This deck needs card advantage in order to play ball, and BB provides it in its rawest form - life for permanents. The tokens are also pitch-able to innocent blood: a card which I feel is crucial to deal with turn 1 hierarchs, birds, lackeys, moms, elves and cursecatchers. I think BB inclusion is warranted with or without therapy, though if you have a suggestion for it's replacement I'd gladly listen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Kant
Also, concerning the 1-ofs, I've removed the bojuka and kept the 1-of stronghold for now (it's just too good at the right time). There's a good chance it will leave the deck if I get frustrated enough with being wastelanded when I'm short on lands or if I draw it so frequently that it makes my gatekeepers and phyrexian obliterators (canceller's actual name, according to MTGsalvation) cry. As for the 1 of jitte and SoLaS, it's a preference thing. I could run a 2-set of jittes but SoLaS adds a dimension to the deck that it is otherwise lacking. Pro white is probably the most important aspect. Recurring creatures is also brutal and not to be underestimated. I truly feel that SoLaS and jitte are not too far removed from each other in terms of power level, at least in this deck. Obviously jitte is transcendental levels of OP, though, so I can see arguments against SoLaS on the grounds that jitte is just...jitte.
I'm also somewhat opposed to dark ritual. Eating a counterspell off of a ritual'd spell just...hurts...And, as is obvious, it makes a bad topdeck often. Card disadvantage for tempo is something I'm always hesitant about.
Final questions:
-How does this deck deal with affinity? Seems like me sleeving up a few powder kegs in the board just isn't going to cut it.
-How does this deck deal with chalice @ 1 or 2? Stax isn't around as much as it used to be but this is a card that can really cripple monoblack decks with low curves.
I don't think BB neccesarily needs to be cut completely, just that it is less good without Cabal Therapy or Innocent Blood.
I do think that both Cabal Therapy and Innocent Blood should get the boot without Percy though. There are superior options to both cards. I would much rather play Hymn to Tourach and Duress over Cabal Therapy and Go for the Throat or Smother than Innocent Blood. Yes, Innocent Blood is one mana cheaper, but it's also a dead card when topdeck once you have a creature on the board, which is basically every time other than turn 1/2. That's definately worth one more mana. Being able to pick off the biggest threat your opponent has, rather than the weakest threat your opponent has is also worth the one extra mana. Gatekeeper serves the same function that Innocent Blood did but with a creature attached, with card advantage, and while being playable even once you have a creature on the board.
As for a replacement for BB. I would honestly prefer to play a Phyrexian Arena or two. Drawing two cards a turn is more valuable than getting a 1/1 flyer each turn in my opinion. Yes, the deck already plays Dark Confidant, but supplementing them with an Arena or two ensure you get one every game, and it's sometimes fine even if one get's countered or killed.
Phyrexian Arena works beautifully with Dark Ritual, ensuring that you have a fistful of cards to ritual out even mid-late game. And Ritual IMO absolutely is worth playing. A utility card like Phyrexian Revoker is another option.
Here is a sample build...
21 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Phyrexian Canceller
4 Dark Ritual
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Duress
2 Smother
2 Go for the Throat
2 Phyrexian Arena
2 Umezawa's Jitte
Do you not see an issue with the fact that innocent blood's removal and replacement with an acceleration spell takes 4x removal spells out of the deck?
Phyrexian Canceller does a great job of stopping aggro decks cold. No one wants to attack into a Canceller.
The deck has plenty of answers to creatures...
Vampire Nighthawk (Deathtouch, Lifelink)
Gatekeeper of Malakir
Phyrexian Canceller
Go for the Throat
Smother
Jitte
Hymns (and Inquisitions) are also great at hitting multiple creatures before your opponent has a chance to cast them, especially when ritualed out.
Postboard, you can add Perish, Engineered Plague, Dystopia and maybe even Infest to that list.
Plus, the list is playing more card draw to draw into more removal.
If you play Canceller, why don't play extirpate? You can remove his paths or swords making your 2nd Canceller (or the 1st one if you get it with DUress) better.
apparently the "Canceller"or "Chancellor" is actually going to be called Phyrexian Obliterator (according to MTG Salv). Now, about the deck lists and comments...
I feel the need for wastelands is the first trump. With that, Dark Ritual is not only better...but almost necessary, making it trump two. With Dark Ritual, it opens the way for increased three drops (which includes Gatekeeper). This creates trump three. And finally....with the Obliterator...you get the removal you need for swarms as they HAVE to block. Since it is most effective on turns 2 and 3 (before a swarm gets out of hand)...it NEEDS the Dark Rituals. To me...this is where you set up your base.
4 Dark Ritual
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Hymnn to Tourach
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
4 Wasteland
from here you begin to ask questions. 1st one...why not 4 Gatekeepers...because there are enough creatureless, or limited creature decks to warrant not having a target on turn 1 or 2, and you will have other removal options....taking us here...
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Duress
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
that's nine discard, seven removal, and 11 creatures (including Gatekeeper who is also a removal) to start with...and we are now at 27 cards and have plenty of room to go into an aggro or control direction from this point. Metagame shifts are what determine this path. To me...right now...this is the direction I would go from here....
4 Sinkhole
3 Nantuko Shade
2 Dark Confidant
3 Umezawa's Jitte
The shift away from Tombstalker has made Dark Confidant less of a risk. Including it as a two of would help ensure its there when you need help fueling those "dead" Dark Rituals. Those "dead" Dark Rituals also have a home in a mid-to-late game Nantuko Shade. Jitte....well......as said before....is Jitte.
Some will say Sinkhole's time has come and gone...but do some searching and you will discover.....
1. There really isn't that much counterspell in Legacy right now PER SAY. Some splash counters along with 4 Force of Will. Not to the point of the 12-16 you used to see. Only dedicated blue control will have more than 8.
2. You can usually steal that counter on turn 1, maybe turn 2.
3. A turn 1 Dark Ritual into Duress into Sinkhole (on the draw) can win games before they start.
Of course there are other options with a turn 1 Dark Ritual, some maybe better, I am just trying to point out the strength of a turn one or two LD in the current meta AS AN ADDITIONAL OPTION in this particular build. Without 'rits...the sinkholes are not as good and mess with tempo. If you already are using the 'rits, and are gonna use Bob to refill your hand...then you have tied that loose end. With Shade you have a way to use the dead 'rits mid-to-late game. So the list would be.. IMO
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Nantuko Shade
2 Dark Confidant
4 Hymnn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Dark Ritual
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Duress
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Umezawa's Jitte
16 Swamp
4 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Duress
3 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Extirpate
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Tormod's Crypt
I have a lot of talk here without having any shocking new tech...but I hope it helps give insight to the way certain cards get added or not. And it all depends on the direction of the build and the metagame. The sideboard may need a little tweaking....with some thought.
You misunderstand why Sinkhole isn't run anymore. The format has sped up to the point that wasting a card and two mana on a land isn't worth it. Go post in the Suicide Black section, as you have gutted the core of the deck in terms of it's CA and power.
Meh, I'm not convinced that Wasteland is all that essential.
And edict is basically a 2cc Gatekeeper without a 2/2 attached.
I vastly prefer something like this...
21 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Phyrexian Canceller
4 Dark Ritual
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Duress
2 Smother
2 Go for the Throat
2 Phyrexian Arena
2 Umezawa's Jitte
@Clark Kant
Isn't running 2 Jittes with 16 creatures a little much?
and with Dark Ritual and Confidant, do you find 22 land to be too much?
I do agree with you, however, that Wasteland is not essential in the build
@Bakofried
Totally agree about sinkhole. It just gains you no value and very little tempo unless you're running Suicide.
As for the now termed Obliterator, he's been crazy good in the small amount of testing I've done with him. He's essentially Peacekeeper when untapped and Tombstalker when attacking, which is awesome.
Here's my list so far:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Phyrexian Obliterater
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Diabolic Edict
2 Damnation
2 Darkblast
2 Bitterblossom
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Raven's Crime
3 Bojuka Bog
8 Fetches
9 Swamp
Sideboard:
4 Oppression
4 Engineered Plague
3 Duress
2 Nevynrral's Disk
1 Worm Harvest
1 Bojuka Bog
This list has tested pretty well so far. Keep in mind that it is tuned for an Aggro/Combo meta at my local store.
You have a point with Sinkhole. It is a liability more than it used to be. I am still trying other options in its place. I disagree with the suicide black deflection, however. The "core" hasn't been gutted, and the power has definitely NOT been compromised. Adjusting the Sinkhole spot will address this even more.Quote:
Originally Posted by bakofried
>Clark
Still think Wastelands need to be in there. However, I like the Phyrexian Arena as a replacement for Bob...but Bob is also another body for Jitte giving it additional use mid-to-late game. ALSO...as someone stated before...instant speed, non-targeted removal is KEY in a metagame where Progenitus and Emrakul are showing up more than before. In the Emrakul scenario...all you HAVE is the Edict to bail you out. I like the option of both cards. Siding in the fourth Gatekeeper when needed. The Duress/Inqusition of Koz debate will wager on forever. Duress hits Force...Koz does not. To me...that is the trump. BTW, if you are foregoing Bob...Thoughtseize may be better anyway. I don't like 'seize WITH Bob though.
Thanks for the input...as I believe some sort of mono-black will ascend the ranks once the new BIG GUY hits next month. I appreciate the insight.
Why not run 4 Confidants? It is arguably the best card in the deck. And having 4 Gatekeepers is nigh-on a prequisite for the deck.
I actually debated a third Confidant over the third Jitte. I think if the Sinkholes come out....adding one more Confidant and 3 Bitterblossom would be the other way to go. That way an early Jitte, if nothing else, has targets with BB. So an update maybe....
- 4 Sinkhole
+1 Dark Confidant
+3 Bitterblossom
I've had enough issues with opening hand Gatekeepers and no creature to target. This makes him a bear, at best. I like the option of siding in the fourth. I know CA is the point, but with no target...well....no CA. In the Abyssal Persecutor version...different story altogether. 4 Gatekeepers are a must. So.l..this puts us here... :
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Nantuko Shade
3 Dark Confidant
4 Hymnn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual
3 Bitterblossom
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Duress
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Umezawa's Jitte
16 Swamp
4 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Duress
3 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Extirpate
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Tormod's Crypt
I'm gonna work this into a gauntlet this week. I'll post results this weekend. I still think the board can use work. Even though it is local-metagame-influenced anyway. Thanks again.