Could I see this list that uses Wish+VV? I assumed they were mutually exclusive.
Printable View
Could I see this list that uses Wish+VV? I assumed they were mutually exclusive.
These sets are mutually exclusive. The SB VV plan fits better with either GSZ or Pact, but not very easily with Wish, as it removes too much sideboard space.Quote:
Originally Posted by bakofried
I was asking K2, as he referenced it. Explain his wording then?
Squalmonger only damages creatures WITH flying and therefore does nothing against an opposing Peacekeeper. And damaging all players is not so exciting either...Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
I am thinking about a terastodon instead of ulamog, mortapod or masticore. It is a green creature for CMC 9 and it is therefore not much harder to find him over force in T3-4. It should help vs. peacekeeper and many other problems. With NO, pact, GSZ I have a lot of different option to get it post board.Quote:
Originally Posted by abel_lg
....essentially it is also a wincon.
Still not sure if it is worth to sacrifice a SB spot of GY or combo hate... depends on the meta I guess.
Terastodon is a very good solution to Peacekeeper and other hate actually.
Terastodon can only destroy non-creature permanents.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mulligan
You will more likely than not, be ahead in lifetotal against such decks. Squallmonger gives you the option of ending the game without combat. Clearly it's weaker than Masticore in this situation, but it's also tutorable than Masticore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darklingske
You can destroy 3 white producing lands so Peacekeeper dies in upkeep, most of the decks that play it only use about 5, so getting more than 3 would be hard for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
Now I see what you mean.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mulligan
I forgot that Masticore isn't tutorable with Zenith and Pact! :P Terastodon option is interesting, but doesn't hurts us a bit having to wait a whole turn to Peacekeeper not to be mantained? It's the same as Granger Guildmage, waiting to mage loss this summoning sickness, even worse because in the whole turn a spot removal against him is clearly possible (also rely on Birchlore to activate his ability).
It's not creature tutorable, but what about Mercy Killing or Lignify? It's basically the same as Mortapod.
Mortarpod can do it multiple times if need be. It shouldn't, but the option is nice.
If we dont need to tutor and just need it once, while going off I think both cards are fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by abel_lg
However someone mentioned Pact of negation as a counter while going off, which might be a problem for everyone killing with emrakul, because he will have another upkeep. But for the builds who use birchlore and kill with banefire or grapeshot slaughter pact would also be an option...
That's a very good point, thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mulligan
But then again, if you run Grapeshot there's no need to have another answer to Peacekeeper. BTW, I am blind, so I completely missed that you weren't running Birchlore Rangers. Doesn't this make you very dependent on Heritage Druid, or on a Priest surviving until it doesn't have summoning sickness?Quote:
Originally Posted by catmint
It's not as if you really need Archdruid or Priest of Titania to make the deck work. When LSV won PT:Berlin he did that with a Grapeshot version without either of these cards. I do think that especially Warcaller makes the deck a lot better (but obviously LSV had to do without it), if anyone would consider not running Archdruid or Priest but 4 Warcallers I certainly wouldn't call him insane. But if you plan to win through combo, you don't need any of these cards. The thing is, LSV didn't have a proper maindeck aggro plan, but did he need it? Legacy is a stronger format than that PT. You need some plan against control decks, and then aggro works.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1maarten1
I used to have Birchlore, but I am testing a differerent build now. In my experience I don't want to depend too much on having a glimpse initially and the best way to get it is to cast a regal force T3. The easiest way to do this is to cast priest or archdruid T2 to have tons of mana in T3 (8 untap effects). In this way there are many cards that can likely win the game T3: Glimpse of course, 4 pact + 2 GSZ for Force and force itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shabbaman
Not sure how much the "win game in Turn 2%" goes up having 4 Birchlore", but in my testing it was not that relevant. The preferred option to win T2 is T1 mana-elf, T2 quirion (access to heritage & nettel is necessary of course..)
Also often just starting to combo with 1 nettle + 1 birchlore is not very consistent... especially in my build where I want to have an aggro option (archdruid) and utility with (zealot, witness, 2 GSZ) and therefore weaken the combo...
Of course you have to rely on a Titania surviving, but it beeing removed does not hurt that much, because the deck it is still pretty realiable going off without titania and the removal is gone...In fact I like to bring out a "must kill bomb" in T2 that is not necessary for me to go off... i prefer that over playing a nettle to setup a T3 combo!
...There is 1 build that was 4th in a SCG build also running 4 titania having a single concordant crossroads. I might test that as well, but right now don't want to give away a spot.
Another thing that gives me added value from titania is that I side in NO, prog in many g2,g3 situations vs. stax or decks that side canonist or chalice. Chalice at 1 does not hurt that much, because I am still able to get my titania out and have then visionary, archdruid, zealot + 2 GSZ to get more elves out and have access to 4 Mana for NO.
Thanks for the explanation. It makes sense, at least in theory it does. Birchlore isn't the strongest card in the deck by far, so I can see why you cut it. Finding room for everything is tough.
@bakofried- I'll the wish/VV list in a bit, when a new page starts, cause I posted it a few pages ago but it was towards the end and no one noticed it. Just making a tweak or two while the page fills up.
As for the Archdruid/Warcaller debate, the main reason archdruid is worth having is because it allows for turn two summoner's pact for archdruid using an active heritage without a glimpse, then you use the ardruid to pay the upkeep cost and still have a bunch of 2/2 elves to attack with. I make this play all the time if I feel comfortable enough that they don't have removal, and it allows a T4 aggro win almost every time. This is a very large advantage, and a very common play.
Warcaller is still great since he can continue the combo being a one drop, and can make your dudes as big as you have the mana for, but he doesn't replace archdruid.
The combo percentage will go up the more one drops you have in your deck. There are some one drops that are musts if you want a fast combo. I am comfortable calling the following one drops "core" to the deck, and they should always be played in a set.
4 Heritage druid
4 Nettle sentinel
4 quirion ranger
4 birchlore rangers
4 wirewood symbiote
we need llanowar/fyndhorn too but I think that number is a bit more debatable than these.
@catmint- Birchlore does up the combo %, but only by a little bit. The main advantage to birchlore is being able to dump all the one drops in your hand much faster, especially if you have a nettle, which allows for a much faster aggro clock. T2 dumb your one drops, T3 play a lord and swing, T4 win.
It's so common play Joraga to continue the combo and after comboed and Emrakul being casted, bounce with Symbiote for a Joraga with tons of counters. It's simply marvellous.Quote:
Originally Posted by k2thej
Totally agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by k2thej
I think maybe we only need 2-3 Birchlore, but is a good plan to not only rely on Heritage Druid.
I totally agree with the core of the combo (except for birchlore) :)Quote:
Originally Posted by k2thej
Interesting point about birchlore also supporting the aggro clock a lot. I havent considered that yet...I remeber making the play quite often (T1 nettle, T2 couple of elves + pact for achdruid). You can also put it that way: With your list next to glimpsing + going off T2 with birchlore or quirion your favourite T2 play is 2-3 elves + archdruid and go for aggro. My favourite T2 play (without birchlore) is titania and go for combo/force+combo in T3.
I am not gutsy enough to claim to know what is the better plan in the current legacy meta, but here are my thougths why I think the titania plan is better:
1)
I do feel a little bit all-in playing my hole hand in T2. The turn 4 kill is realistic in goldfish, but the common creatures like guyfs and reliquary, mishras can hold you back and a vial supported swarm might also out aggro you.
2)
There is of course a lot of CMC 1 removal for archdruid. -> if they remove archdruid you dont have a hand left you are also cribbled next turn to pay the 4 mana (if you can if not you loose the game) and your aggro plan is not existing anymore.
3)
you are more vulnerable to a EE, firespout, pyroclasm, perish. If they play those bombs with only a mandude and a titania out you have still 5 hand cards more and can recover much faster...if they don't, they won't be able to play a sorcery anymore. For EE, I have 7 spots for zealot in G1.
4) it sucks if you topdeck a glimpse with no hand cards. Of course there is symbiote and yuo can go aggro while collecting elves, but still I think you agree that it is much better to have a hand full of elves when drawing a glimpse...
5) If titania survives turn two (should survive nearly as often as archdruid survives T2), the plan is to play all the elves untap titania & cast force... that also set's up an aggro clock (1 turn later), but hopefully also give you card advantage and the chance to win the same turn (a real 2 in 1 plan).
6) I also often feel i dont want to use my pact for archdruid, because I want to use it for regal force. I think if you take the times you cast regal force T3 and win is much higher as the time you cast archdruid T2 and win.
7)In general: you can also put it that way that the other tribes gobs & merfolk have a better aggro clock/plan than elves and many decks out there can handle that...
So, with all that thoughts I thinking it is generally speaking not better to go primary aggro if no glimpse is available, but to go primary regal force and fall back to the aggro option if necessary or if it is really the obvious thing to do with a hand like forest, forest, fyndhorn, archdruid, warcaller, nettle, quirion.
Love to hear your thoughts on that and what advantages & disadvantages I did not consider yet on the 2 different approaches.
I became interested in this deck recently. I've actually long dismissed most lists I've seen as being too Glimpse-reliant, but I felt that the 4 Priest/4 Archdruid list David Vo got 4th with recently at Atlanta had a lot of potential. The biggest problem I had with this list was that it didn't run Living Wish.
Living Wish is, put simply, retarded in Elves, and it's not worth any sideboard conversion to not run the card, because any strategy that nukes you is going to do so unless you're allowed to swap out 30-40 cards anyway. But Living Wish means always having a Gaea's Cradle or Emrakul available when you need it and never otherwise, as well as the pieces of the combo and answers to various problems and decks like Bojuka Bog and Phyrexian Revoker. More importantly, with or without a Glimpse you can often cast Emrakul as soon as you hit 15+ mana, which is very easy to do if you don't hit significant creature removal.
Green Sun's Zenith I eventually just built up to a 4-of because it was that good, and at that point I cut Summoner's Pact. The entire point of this list is to be able to win without Glimpse. Glimpse or no Glimpse, this deck will generally kill you on turn 3 about 80% of the time if there's no disruption, and its multiple paths to victory mean that you really need multiple points of disruption to have a good chance. Without Pact, Glimpse can even be used just to set you up on turn 2 or 3 for a next turn kill; first turn Llanowar, second turn Glimpse, Quirion, two other dorks, maybe a Heritage and drop a Priest, pass the turn, is actually a very strong play.
Of course, at the end of the day it is still elves. If someone's running StP, Lightning Bolt, Force, Daze, Counterbalance and Firespout all in the same deck, you're probably not going to win. But against most of the field I think this list is ridiculously strong and fast.
As a last point, I'm running Kamahl over Ezuri since;
1) It's slightly easier to kill people with a moderate amount of mana + Kamahl than with Ezuri, since in the scenario where, say, you have two priests and a Ranger + Kamahl, you can turn your lands into creatures to get additional bodies out there; an important part of optimizing the deck is knowing when to try and combo, and when you should just fucking go and kill them with your dorks,and
2) It's slightly better removal protection; Ezuri is only effective against Firespout, Deed and EE, whereas Kamahl can turn Damnation or Wrath into a gamebreaker by nuking the opponent's mana base. You really don't need much left in hand to take out a dude without lands.
Of course, Ezuri isn't an impediment when Glimpsing off, so I'm not 100% that this is the optimal choice, although Kamahl is much more badass imo.
Anyway, here's the list;
Glimpse-Elves, aka, Lucky Charms;
12 Snow-Covered Forests
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Living Wish
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Nettle Sentinel
3 Heritage Druid
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Priest of Titania
4 Elvish Archdruid
1 Regal Force
1 Kamahl, Fist of Krosa
sb:
1 Nettle Sentinel
1 Heritage Druid
1 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Regal Force
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Terastadon
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Wasteland
1 Eternal Witness
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Caller of the Claw
1 Viridian Shaman
the SB is slightly less polished; four or five slots are still questionable. Otherwise I've been very pleased with the results I've been getting testing this list.