Sad to see. I'm curious as to what the hands that were mulliganed were.
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Sad to see. I'm curious as to what the hands that were mulliganed were.
Here's the list that got top 16.
Nathan Zamora
Creatures (6)
2 Children of Korlis
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Griselbrand
Lands (14)
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
Spells (40)
1 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
3 Goryo's Vengeance
1 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Shallow Grave
1 Silence
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
1 Reanimate
2 Thoughtseize
Sideboard
2 Pithing Needle
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Pull from Eternity
2 Silence
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Massacre
1 Thoughtseize
2 Children, 3 Griselbrand, 3 Therapy, 1 LDV, 14 lands, 3 Silence between the 75, 60 card maindeck, 15 card sideboard with Mindbreak Trap and Pull from Eternity are the key points I'm picking out of the list.
Clearly it worked out pretty well for him until the end, I wish I was home to see the feature match.
I'm curious if Nathan takes part in our thread so we can pick his brain over his choices and get a report.
Also of note is no Tendrils in the 75.
I've been thinking more on ABC bringing back up Snapcaster Mage. That seems like a really good suggestion that can help with some of the current build's weak points, namely being able to flashback Entomb and provides a way to flashback Cabal Therapy for more disruption as well. I saw Koby mention the 3rd LDV earlier - I think I would try the 1st Snapcaster before the 3rd LDV, and may try the 2nd Snapcaster in place of the 2nd LDV as well. Just a thought anyway.
There is still a non-zero chance that I play this at GPDC next weekend, so we'll see. Graveyard hate seems like it is at a minimum right now, but I worry about the amount of tempo decks that seem to be running around at the moment.
Indeed. Tempo is killing me. It's so bad I'm thinking of putting this down. Esperblade has been a true terror to face, a trifecta of discard, permission and fast beats to just wreck me every time. Getting griselbrand stifled also sucks.
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I haven't been to this thread in awhile, I'm very surprised to see that people have dropped Force, and are going with the ANT disruption package. IMO Force of Will is the MVP of the deck, I've been playing it quite a bit online, and, IMO without it, this deck isn't near tier 1, here's why FOW is so, so good in this deck:
Turn 0-1 chance of comboing: Many times you have to choose whether to play it safe and cast a thoughtseize/cabal therapy OR go for it, FOW enables you to go for the turn 0-1 kill
Graveyard Hate: I agree with the direction of the sideboard, it should deal with hate, not transform. FOW is an allstar in this regards, as it allows you to counter the opponents gy hate (ie. grafdiggers's cage), and then combo off on your turn. Without FOW you can't do anything about the hate, except fish for you 1-2 answers you likely sideboarded in.
Other combo decks: FOW makes the deck go from a 50/50 against: ANT, Belcher, Hypergenesis, Ooops All Spells, to a heavy favourite in those match-ups.
Disruption: If the opponent silences you when you reanimate Griz, or otherwise disrupts you, you can draw with Griz and safely pass the turn if you've drawn FOW. You then have time to set-up the win in the next turns.
Also if you are taking this deck to the tournament, I would expect moderate to heavy gy hate. The Oops All Spells deck is becoming pretty well represented on MTGO lately, and its a very tough deck to beat without 4 LOTV.
I will post by current decklist tomorrow, I've also cut Emrakul from the maindeck, as I find Tendrils is the better kill in almost every situation, I only bring in Emrakul if I think they will play a Leyline of Sanctity, or if they have surgical extractions.
Cheers,
Wess
I would like very much to see your list. I dunno but wouldn't pact be better here?
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EDIT: Just went 2-1 against True-Name Esperblade. I'm not playing a list anymore without 2x Snapcaster. They are nuts. Played through 2 FoW and a Pierce. Crazy. I think I just got revitalized on this deck. Test Snappy.
Hi, Wess!
I think in order to support Force of Will in Tin-Fins, you need at least 16 other blue cards to make it effective.
I guess you must run 4 ponder + 4 brainstorm which are the best cantrips in Legacy.
so what about other blue cards? are you running careful study? if so, maybe maximizing Griselbrand is needed.
just curious to see you list:)
I think I would play Pact or Daze before Force in this deck. The blue count isn't high enough, and we're already a card disadvantage machine.
ABC - what is the list that you're running right now with 2 snappy's?
Ok, here is my current list, it's not perfectly tuned (ie exact land configuration, sideboard for meta, etc). This builds strength is that its more resilient to disruption and hate than the ANT (cabal therapy and silence) package, has a better mid-game and top-deck if something goes wrong, and is better at finding sideboard cards.
I also run a list with +3 Daze, +1 Lim Dul's Vault and -4 Gitaxian Probe, or a combination, still testing to see what the right mix is. Even 1 Daze in the list is strong, because if your opponent sees you running it, they might slow down a turn trying to play around it. The weak point of Daze is that its much better when you are on the play, but we usually win game 1 anyways, its game 2 that is tough when the opponent is on the play, so, its a meta call.
Creatures 3
Children of Korlis X 1
Griselbrand X 2
Protection 39
Force of Will X 4
Thoughtseize X 3
Gitaxian Probe X 4
Brainstorm X 4
Ponder X 4
Preordain X 2
Dark Ritual X 4
Goryo's Vengeance X 3
Shallow Grave X 4
Reanimate X 1
Entomb X 4
Tendrils of Agony X 1
Misdirection X 1
Artifact 5
Lotus Petal X 4
Chrome Mox X 1
Lands 13
Underground Sea X 2
Tundra X 1
Scrubland X 1
Polluted Delta X 4
Marsh Flats X 2
Island X 1
Flooded Strand X 2
Sideboard 15
Emrakul the Eons Torn X 1
Silence X 3
Children of Korlis X 1
Chain of Vapor X 2
Echoing Truth X 1
Surgical Extraction X 3
Massacre X 2
Flusterstorm X 1
Infest X 1
Currently running:Quote:
Originally Posted by .dk
6
1 Emrakul
1 Children
2 Grizz
2 Snappy
41
1 Tendrils
4 Entomb
4 Dark Rit
4 Petal
1 C. Mox
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Careful Study
4 Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 LDV
14
4 Delta
4 Flats
2 USea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Island
SB
2 CoV
3 Serenity
3 Surgical Extraction
4 Silence
3 Pithing Needle
I've been really liking it. Snapcaster changed things for me against Tempo. Between it and LDV, I have some pretty good lines of play.
-ABC
Very similar to what I had in my head to test out, although I think I would prefer 4 Ponders to the 2/2 split with Careful Study, and I still like the Tendrils in the main (but we don't need to debate that).
Any specific lines that you're referring to, or just the obvious ones of snapping back countered spells and cantrips and having something to sac to Cabal Therapy?
I edited my post, I do have Tendrils in there, I do not have 3 USea, only 2. Lands at 14. Sorry about that, it felt like I was missing something and I didn't want to tear my deck apart to post, so I went from memory. Also, the Entomb line is the main one, but I've also gotten to combo off turn one thanks to a Snapped-back Brainstorm. It was lucky, but it worked. Also, being able to sacrifice to Therapy is just what the doctor ordered. Makes them a better choice in my opinion. I'm testing Careful Study. So far, I actually kinda like it. Lets me dump grizz, which for some reason is pretty relevant as I seem to draw Grizz often.Quote:
Originally Posted by .dk
-ABC
I'm still hesitant to run Snapcaster Mage for the Therapy line because it could interfere with Shallow Grave. Perhaps we can revise the decklist to run 4 Goryo's and 3 Shallow Grave instead, so there's lesser opportunity to interfere.
Definitely need the Reanimate then, IMO to make sure that you can reanimate Children of Korlis. If I have some time between other testing this week, I will likely test with 4 Shallow Grave / 3 Goryo's and see how often Snapcaster mucks up Shallow Grave. It definitely will sometimes, the question is whether or not it is often enough to change to the overall split of instant speed reanimation.
I haven't had a problem, honestly. Don't go into auto - pilot and it will do okay.
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Bee: how does adding Snapcaster to a graveyard centric deck help with consistency? I guess i can see how having more things for the tempo player to fight through is good (although costing 3makes me dubious), but what about against decks that actually play grave hate?
Wess: thanks for sharing your list. It reminds me a lot of next level reanimator. Any consideration for stifle? I could see cutting the Misdirection and a cantrip for a couple.
Not convinced by Tiago, but its worth testing. He's fairly mana intensive, although buyback on Therapy is something I often wish for. I would worry about interference with Shallow Grave. A simple response of Bolt Tiago with Shallow Grave on the stack will not make for a good reanimation experience. The offset to increase Vengeance is far from ideal when reanimating Children.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
Still a fan of Tendrills, and periodically switch SB into ANT. Your complete inability to beat Ethersworn and Chalice frustrate me with ANT builds, but there nothing nicer that dropping LED after they resolve RIP.
A while back i also played a list which was basically the "default" list and FoW.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wess
Went like:
-4 Cabal Therapy, -4 Gitaxian Probe, -2 LDV (-1 Tendrils, -1 Silence)
+4 Careful Study, + 4 Force of Will, +2 Preordain (+2 Griselbrand...)
Is must say i wasn't toooo happy with the Forces. Is just liked the idea that you have instant protection beforce combo AND you have answers for opponent if you fizzle(!). The best thing was Owning Miracles 2-0 by FoWing an Enlightened Tutored Rest in Peace Game 1 and wipe the board with Serenity Game 2.
But i may test FoW again without the study switching though...!
Another thing regarding Therapy Flashback (and btw cheating Grisel into play...): Have you guys ever considered to use some Gamekeeper's in Tin Fins... ? Or is it just not good enough ?
Gamekeeper is a bit rough. It's 4CMC which is a stretch already (hence some people's apprehension to Snapcaster), and would require a solid 4th color to have access to. The other problem might be... what if you flip Children of Korlis off of your library? Pretty sure your Gamekeeper's instantly get ripped up then. :)
Well, I will be waiting for your guys' concensus on SCM, but I think it's something that will stay in my list until something close to Entomb gets printed again (lol). It's like LDV, only exactly opposite, if that makes sense.
-ABC