[Primer/Deck] Burn

This is going to sound completely off the wall, but has anyone ever tried Scab-Clan Berserker? For the past couple months I've been thinking about what my simulator showed (no, I won't be posting a bunch more results) that if you were to tier our cards, Mountain and Eidolon are tier 0, while Lightning Bolt and Goblin Guide are tier 1. Basically... that experiment suggested the best deck was 25ish Eidolons and 35ish lands (that outperformed basically everything).

So I've been thinking about that. It's pretty popular these days to include Pyrostatic Pillar as Eidolon's 5+, but what if that approach isn't optimal? What if instead of going for a strictly worse, next best it's better to go for a worse, but not strictly worse alternative? In Berserker's favor it will almost always renown if you pick your spot, and it's a 1 sided Eidolon that can even trigger on Planeswalkers and other big mana spells. Against it is that it's 3 mana for a 2/2 haste (if it gets to hit as a 3/3 though, you probably win the game).

As for what would be cut to include it, we don't have all that many 3 CMC slots, but what about removing Sulfuric Vortex for it? I could even see cutting one Firecraft.

I thought about Scab Clan when it was first spoiled, but I ultimately decided against. I feel like it sits as a more midrange type of strategy that doesn't mind going into the longer game. I definitely think this deck needs more three drops if your meta is heavy with Miracles, but nearly every other deck will answer it with something bigger or a kill spell. It starts out late, and there's no way to get it down faster as we have no mana acceleration and most spells are already triggering Eidolon.

It's clunky. I definitely wouldn't cut Firecraft or Rift Bolt. I want to add to them, just not in their literal three mana sense (see: Rift Bolt alternate cost). You'll need more mana to run more three mana spells without hindering what we're already doing.

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Originally Posted by Krimson Viper

I thought about Scab Clan when it was first spoiled, but I ultimately decided against. I feel like it sits as a more midrange type of strategy that doesn't mind going into the longer game. I definitely think this deck needs more three drops if your meta is heavy with Miracles, but nearly every other deck will answer it with something bigger or a kill spell. It starts out late, and there's no way to get it down faster as we have no mana acceleration and most spells are already triggering Eidolon.

It's clunky. I definitely wouldn't cut Firecraft or Rift Bolt. I want to add to them, just not in their literal three mana sense (see: Rift Bolt alternate cost). You'll need more mana to run more three mana spells without hindering what we're already doing.

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I already run more mana than most people.

For what it's worth, I'm probably going to try it out in a 10 week paper league soon, which is basically going to be prep for Louisville since I would really like to attend it... though I'm not yet sold on playing Burn there.

My LGS started up a legacy league, each person gets 2 decks (you pick which you're playing each week before pairings go up). 10 weeks long. My primary deck is something that's pretty experimental, so I decided to go with Burn as a safe secondary choice. I'm playing pretty much what I've been playing for the past 4 months which is land heavy, and was actually a computer generated deck from my simulator. The only change I'm making is I put 1 Berserker MB and 1 SB to try them out at the expense of a MB Firecraft and SB Fireblast.

The big "feature" being that I'm giving up topdeck wars due to the land count in exchange for having more consistency in the early game.

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Originally Posted by Brael

I already run more mana than most people.

For what it's worth, I'm probably going to try it out in a 10 week paper league soon, which is basically going to be prep for Louisville since I would really like to attend it... though I'm not yet sold on playing Burn there.

My LGS started up a legacy league, each person gets 2 decks (you pick which you're playing each week before pairings go up). 10 weeks long. My primary deck is something that's pretty experimental, so I decided to go with Burn as a safe secondary choice. I'm playing pretty much what I've been playing for the past 4 months which is land heavy, and was actually a computer generated deck from my simulator. The only change I'm making is I put 1 Berserker MB and 1 SB to try them out at the expense of a MB Firecraft and SB Fireblast.

The big "feature" being that I'm giving up topdeck wars due to the land count in exchange for having more consistency in the early game.

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I never said more land, I said more mana. I think to power it (Berserker) out in Burn without mudding up your hand with three drops, you'd need something like fast mana: Lotus Petal or Simian Spirit Guide. But if you're cutting a three drop for a different three drop, I don't think you'll have an issue with what I'm talking about.

How many lands are you running? I want to go to twenty-one, but I can't seem to find that last slot.

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Originally Posted by Krimson Viper

How many lands are you running? I want to go to twenty-one, but I can't seem to find that last slot.

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More than 21. I'm actually playing 25. I know there's a lot of resistance to that many lands, but it's working for me. Perhaps looking at the list you can figure out what you can cut.

Land 25
16 Mountain
1 Barbarian Ring
8 red fetch

Creatures 14
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Goblin Guide
1 Grim Lavamancer
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
1 Scab-Clan Berserker

Spells 21
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Price of Progress
3 Searing Blaze
3 Exquisite Firecraft
2 Fireblast
1 Sulfuric Vortex

Sideboard 15
2 Volcanic Fallout
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Skullcrack
1 Flame Rift
1 Scab-Clan Berserker

The build probably seems really weird considering it's somewhere between 5 and 7 lands more than is typically run, but I've had very good results with it over the past couple months, at a minimum my win rate hasn't gone down. We'll see how it does in the league, it's pretty consistent and fast though at the expense of worse topdecks.

Hi, you all,

I'd like to share with you my lastest Burn deck. It's focused in damage race.

I've in mind to maximize "Consistency", "Guaranteed Damage", "No Lag Damage" and "Virtual Card Advantage"

Most polemic choices are:

(i) No Price of Progress, replaced by Exquisite Firecraft. Price of Porgress can be useless (against basic land decks), weakened (by avoiding non basic land drop), and countered.
(ii) No Monastery Swiftspear, replaced by Spark Elemental. Because Monastery is a bad top deck, and Spark Elemental is a consistant 1cc drop, and it helps with threshold.
(iii) No Sulfuric Vortex in main deck. Since it's damage has lag, and life gain is mostly on creatures and artifactics. The solution is Searing Blaze in main deck, and Smash to Smithereens in side board.


// Lands
4 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
4 [KTK] Bloodstained Mire
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
8 [ZEN] Mountain
2 [OD] Barbarian Ring

// Creatures
4 [ZEN] Goblin Guide
4 [FD] Spark Elemental
4 [JOU] Eidolon of the Great Revel

// Spells
4 [TSP] Rift Bolt
4 [M11] Lightning Bolt
4 [CHK] Lava Spike
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [WWK] Searing Blaze
4 [ORI] Exquisite Firecraft
4 [VI] Fireblast

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ORI] Smash to Smithereens
SB: 3 [SC] Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 2 [8E] Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 2 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 2 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [SHM] Faerie Macabre


Other cards i've rejected, but considered:

SB: 1 [SC] Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 1 [RTR] Ash Zealot
SB: 1 [GTC] Skullcrack
SB: 1 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [BNG] Searing Blood
SB: 1 [PT] Pyroclasm
SB: 1 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 [M15] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [EX] Price of Progress
SB: 1 [NE] Flame Rift
SB: 1 [A] Taiga
SB: 1 [THS] Destructive Revelry
SB: 1 [KTK] Monastery Swiftspear
SB: 1 [M12] Grim Lavamancer
SB: 1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
SB: 1 [TSP] Sudden Shock
SB: 1 [AVR] Vexing Devil
SB: 1 [NPH] Gut Shot
SB: 1 [RTR] Electrickery
SB: 1 [PD2] Hellspark Elemental
SB: 1 [FUT] Keldon Megaliths
SB: 1 [CH] Blood Moon
SB: 1 [CNS] Volcanic Fallout


I hope you like it.

Edson.

Thanks for sharing Ed!
Do you have any information you can provide that might tempt people to try your list over a more proven list that runs Price of Progress?
Any tournament results? Or how your list changes certain matchups? Maybe what your meta looks like?

I see you've ruled out Sulfuric Vortex due to 'damage lag', yet you are playing 4 Rift Bolt. Care to explain what appears to be an inconsistency in your thought process? Or are you only ever hardcasting Rift Bolt?

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Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew

Thanks for sharing Ed!
Do you have any information you can provide that might tempt people to try your list over a more proven list that runs Price of Progress?
Any tournament results? Or how your list changes certain matchups? Maybe what your meta looks like?

I see you've ruled out Sulfuric Vortex due to 'damage lag', yet you are playing 4 Rift Bolt. Care to explain what appears to be an inconsistency in your thought process? Or are you only ever hardcasting Rift Bolt?

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Thank you for your response, @Ace/Homebrew. Now mine:

a. Succesfull decks on my meta are: Miracle Control, Lands, Grixis Pyromancer and Death and Taxes.
b. "Lag Damage" is only a problem since 5th turn, and Rift Bolt can be played for its normal cost then.
c. Sadly, I cannot give you a propper report. But my impression is how the pressure have changed sides since I replaced Price of Progress, because Exquisite Firecraft is "Guaranteed damage".

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Originally Posted by Krimson Viper

I never said more land, I said more mana. I think to power it (Berserker) out in Burn without mudding up your hand with three drops, you'd need something like fast mana: Lotus Petal or Simian Spirit Guide. But if you're cutting a three drop for a different three drop, I don't think you'll have an issue with what I'm talking about.

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I wanted to put this to the test. Burn hasn't come up in my league yet but it will (we each get 2 decks we swap week to week before pairings) once I get some testing in with my other deck that has been in the que longer than my Burn ideas have.

Preliminary results with Berserker have been promising but 4 appears to be too many, but it could just be a byproduct of too many 3 drops. In practice, Berserker has been very close to a guaranteed 4 damage, which is what it's main competitor in Firecraft is. The tradeoff is being uncounterable and guaranteed (no blocks) vs having a higher upside.

I think fast mana destroys the necessary card efficiency, because you go from 4 damage in one card to 4 damage in two cards, essentially downgrading what should be a bomb to a Shock.

I've had only a handful of games with the Berserker so far and it hasn't appeared often since it's only a 1 of (plus another 1 in the SB) but I did add it to run it through my simulator for whatever that's worth (just 10000 games though), decks with it had fewer T3 wins and fewer T5 wins but many more T4 wins. The optimal number looks to be somewhere between 2 and 3. It's all theory but the data suggests a 2 of Scab-Clan Berserker could be pretty good as long as you keep the rest of the curve in mind. I'm locked into playing a 1/1 MB/SB split in my tournament deck for the next 11 weeks (and then hopefully a few more after that when I top 4) so by the end of that I should have some pretty good feedback.

The results are still a bit premature but so far I approve of the card. I would suggest others give it a try. The worst thing I can say against it so far is that it's pretty bad against D&T where the burn spells are better.

Played 4 rounds tonight, same build, went 3-1 Saw the Berserker a bunch so it was a good evaluation.

Played against 2x Miracles (1-2, 2-1), 1x Show and Tell (2-0), 1x Shardless (2-1). Cast Berserker 7 times, he ate FoW twice, was worth 4 damage 4 times, and 8 damage once. So overall I got 26 damage out of it for just shy of 4 damage/card. Not being a 1 drop was pretty handy against Miracles. Of course, against Miracles it was just worse than Exquisite Firecraft because that can't be countered.

All in all I liked the card but my opponents always identified it as a huge threat and burned several resources to get rid of it. It might be better in a deck that can tax the opponents removal more. It wasn't bad, but I'm not sure it was the best thing I could be doing. Needs more testing.

Hi everyone,

I'm pretty new to both Legacy and Burn and I was hoping to get some tips from more experience pilots.

I've been to two monthly events. The first was 8 people and I lost the first two rounds against Abzan Stoneblade (1-2) and Grixis Delver (0-2). I got a Bye for third round as 1 player had to leave so I played a for fun game against one of the undefeated who IDed in to top 4. He was on Shardless and I won that match 2-0.

So not a great start to my tournament record but I still enjoyed playing what feels like high end magic against seasoned players.

Yesterday was the second monthly event, this time with 10 people and that went much better.

I played Shardless (2-0), Manaless Dredge(2-1), U/B Reanimator(2-1) and went into round 4 as the only undefeated so far. I IDed with my 4th round opponent into the top 4 but played a game anyway. He was on Death and Taxes. I got the match 2-1 and we went to top 4. I went in as the top seed and ended up against my round 4 opponent. unfortunately this is where my streak ended under a nail biter of a game 3. We were both at 5 and I had a Sulfuric Vortex on the field. he had a lethal board. All I needed to draw was either a land to turn on the searing blaze in my hand or any other burn spell. Instead I drew a goblin guide and that was game over.

My games against Dredge and Reanimator were really just races and honestly I only won game 3 of the Reanimator match by my opponent keeping a sketchy hand and hoping for a land to reanimate the Iona in his GY. Which even with my two guides on the field he was unable to find.

What I'd love to find out are some tips for the DnT match up specifically and any outs I could use to make the Reanimator a little better.

Reanimator is pretty abysmal by any standard. Some players will tell you otherwise, but a high majority of the time you're going to lose. Some people get lucky, or the opponent underestimates you, but seasoned Reanimator pilots will win ninety, or more, percent of the time. Having Faerie Macabre, Tormod's Crypt, or even Surgical Extraction will be your go to cards. Any are fine, but it's dependent upon your meta. I don't like Relic of Progenitus, but that extra card is nice and juicy. I don't like it because it costs mana. I feel like this is a race, with you needing to make them hiccup just once to take the win.

I would take out Price for your grave hate. They run basics and only need two to three lands to operate making Price a two mana for two damage spell at best. Some may argue that taking out creatures is the way to go, but I've won a game with Griselbrand in play causing the Sulfuric Vortex to kill him slowly and Guides sitting on board. Same thing happened with Iona. I can see the value of creatures over Price. If you can, play out your Crypts turn one on the play if multiple in hand. They can cast Entomb with Exhume on the stack, after Tormod's Crypt or Relic's ability has resolved making you a sad panda. On the draw, I would still do it if multiple in hand, but just be aware that Daze is a card in the seventy-five. I'm not sure if Pithing Needle is, though.

Death and Taxes is a fun match up. It has different ways to go, but you do need to get them dead real quick. They're a control deck, after all. I like having any kind of Searing effect against them: Searing Blaze, Searing Blood, Smash to Smithereens. I don't like having too many, however, as any Thalia can stretch the game late and if you're on a nineteen land or less build, she will spell game over when you're behind with a lot of two mana spells in hand. I've moved away from Grim Lavamancer because he is a little slow in some match ups and can be Revokered, but if you have him in your seventy-five, I would bring him in. Kill Mom (Mother of Runes) on site and beware of Flickerwisp. Jitte and Batterskull are must answers, Thalia can be ignored sometimes.

I take out Guides and Eidolon for Smash and additional hate like Vortex, Needle, and Grim. Needle can be great, but like I said earlier, beware of Flickerwisp. You can play with the idea of keeping Guide in or out by whether you're on the play or draw. On the draw, he's out. On the play, I would keep him in if nothing else to board in. Gets outclassed real quick. Eidolon can cause you more pain if there's a Vial out. Always out with Eidolon. Don't attack into an untapped Stoneforge Mystic. A Batterskull becoming a road block suddenly is very heartbreaking if you don't have Sulfuric Vortex in play.

Anyway, my two cents.

Thanks for the reply. I wasn't really sure about the DnT plays. I found my self bolting the mother of runes and mystic every chance and was hoping I was making the right play. What about effects like Volcanic Fallout or proclaim against DnT?. It feels like it could come in handy but it might be a bit greedy.

By proclaim, I'm assuming Pyroclasm? Board wipes have been played, but rarely. That probably depends on your build and how you like to play, but I feel a wipe against D&T might not go your way. I can see you spending two cards to get ride of their board, only for them to rebuild, and even then, Batterskull might just be in play already and not answered. Stoneforge already did its damage by finding Batterskull or Jitte. You might not need to answer Stoneforge by killing it anymore.

See what I mean by D&T can have different ways to go? They have a lot of lines to take, and we only have so many. Player skill to force them into a corner to make a mistake, or race them. You won't be able to control their board in the late game, maybe midgame, and early game control is a tight role. You'll get better as you play against the deck more often.

yeah sorry auto correct.

I really appreciate your thoughts on this. I'm looking forward to the event I can get to.

You're welcome man. Pardon me for being a little vague in my answers, but it's hard to generalize with Death and Taxes.

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Originally Posted by EdsonDettoni

(i) No Price of Progress, replaced by Exquisite Firecraft. Price of Porgress can be useless (against basic land decks), weakened (by avoiding non basic land drop), and countered.

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When it comes to Eldrazi Stompy, having Price of Progress in your opening hand might be THE way to win. Have you had the chance to test your build against this deck?

Cheers.

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Originally Posted by TheYoungPyromancer

When it comes to Eldrazi Stompy, having Price of Progress in your opening hand might be THE way to win. Have you had the chance to test your build against this deck?

Cheers.

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the only problem with price show up when the eldrazi players know he doesn't need to be greedy with his lands, in that case is a dificult matchup.

when it's come to side game, what to side out and what to side in?

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Originally Posted by Gaudy

the only problem with price show up when the eldrazi players know he doesn't need to be greedy with his lands, in that case is a dificult matchup.

when it's come to side game, what to side out and what to side in?

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I've kind of had come to the same issue of what to figure out to remove for the Smashes in my board. I've played against Eldrazi a total of two matches? I don't really like Guide, Spike, and Eidolon. I've considered those because Guide is outclassed quickly, Eidolon mostly does no damage to them and hurts us a lot, and Spike doesn't target creatures, which is always my gripe about them. So, for sure Eidolon, and maybe some number of Guide or Spike.

That's how I feel, at least. What about everyone else?

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Originally Posted by Krimson Viper

I've kind of had come to the same issue of what to figure out to remove for the Smashes in my board. I've played against Eldrazi a total of two matches? I don't really like Guide, Spike, and Eidolon. I've considered those because Guide is outclassed quickly, Eidolon mostly does no damage to them and hurts us a lot, and Spike doesn't target creatures, which is always my gripe about them. So, for sure Eidolon, and maybe some number of Guide or Spike.

That's how I feel, at least. What about everyone else?

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For me, order goes Eidolon > Guide > Spike.

I feel that cutting creatures is the safer gameplan, and there's not going to be more than 8 cards coming in from the sideboard. At least Lava Spike can go upstairs, which is why it's lower on my sideboarding priority.