[DTB] Vial Goblins

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Originally Posted by Mental

Everyone says that Goblins needs to play 22 lands. I've built my list around this mentality too, but once, for the sake of messing around, I changed my mana base to this:

4 Foothills
3 Wasteland
4 Badlands
7 Mountains
=18 Lands

And I ran 2 Blood Moon, 1 Goblin King and 1 SGC in the open slots.

The thing is, it wasn't awful. Sure, normal Goblins was better, but this build was faster and drew more threats, however, its late game was much worse. You actually got colorscrewed about as rarely as you do in 22 land Gobs, but often you'd have trouble hitting your 4th Land Drop, and we know how essential that is.

That leads me to ask a strange questions: If not running the full number of ports/wastes, or none, what is the lowest number of lands Goblins can go down to? 18 seemed to low, but 20 might be acceptable.

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I think 18 is too low. Like you said, nailing drops after land 2-3 is hard. If you wanted to run fewer lands, you'd probably have to trim out some fetch, as you did. Only problem I see is colorscrew and Wasteland becomes your worst enemy. Also, those Wastelands may or may not stay around if you want to deny your opponent of mana.

With fewer lands, you'd have to rely on Lackey and Vial, meaning you better be packing protection or removal out the butt. Sure Chief helps, but if you're losing, I'd think that you'd have problems with recovering.

Also, I'd run a single Swamp and Mires instead of Foothills. But that's just me. Blood Moon doesn't like your Badlands. I wouldn't dip below 20-21 unless you want to change the average CC.

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Originally Posted by chokin

I think 18 is too low. Like you said, nailing drops after land 2-3 is hard. If you wanted to run fewer lands, you'd probably have to trim out some fetch, as you did. Only problem I see is colorscrew and Wasteland becomes your worst enemy. Also, those Wastelands may or may not stay around if you want to deny your opponent of mana.

With fewer lands, you'd have to rely on Lackey and Vial, meaning you better be packing protection or removal out the butt. Sure Chief helps, but if you're losing, I'd think that you'd have problems with recovering.

Also, I'd run a single Swamp and Mires instead of Foothills. But that's just me. Blood Moon doesn't like your Badlands. I wouldn't dip below 20-21 unless you want to change the average CC.

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Blood Moon is just such a house that it didn't matter at the time. Sure, it made a few spells uncastable, but it made all their stuff uncastable if it stuck. What I liked about the deck is it seemed that once you DID hit 4-5 mana, the deck went nuts because the only things you ever drew were threats. It was just inconsistent.

I often get colorscrewed by the singleton swamp, so lately I've tried to curve my reliance on black and just play 4 Badlands/2 Taiga. This is in normal, 22 land Goblins, obviously.

BTW, SB Blood Moon is really strong. I play 3.

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Originally Posted by Mental

Blood Moon is just such a house that it didn't matter at the time. Sure, it made a few spells uncastable, but it made all their stuff uncastable if it stuck. What I liked about the deck is it seemed that once you DID hit 4-5 mana, the deck went nuts because the only things you ever drew were threats. It was just inconsistent.

I often get colorscrewed by the singleton swamp, so lately I've tried to curve my reliance on black and just play 4 Badlands/2 Taiga. This is in normal, 22 land Goblins, obviously.

BTW, SB Blood Moon is really strong. I play 3.

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Maybe use a few Ancient Tombs to make up for lost land drops. Or use Thawing Glaciers :P After Dragon Stompy stealing the spotlight for a while, and Threshold developing Moon Thresh, it's safe to say that many decks are now built to avoid Moonscrew(new term developed...now).

I think that color screw would be too common in an 18 land build trying to mimic Rbg, so cutting a color like you did was smart. Also relying on fewer splashed cards would help prevent that color screw and Moonscrew.

I saw some Rb lists but why don't you guys play Frogtossers?
It'll make the deck faster and besides that it's an extra 2CC slot...
Most of the times i don't see me using all of my mana t2 for not having 2 1 mana costing goblins or not having a pile driver and ofcource the same goes for an aether vail with 2 counters on it...

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Originally Posted by chocomel

I saw some Rb lists but why don't you guys play Frogtossers?
It'll make the deck faster and besides that it's an extra 2CC slot...
Most of the times i don't see me using all of my mana t2 for not having 2 1 mana costing goblins or not having a pile driver and ofcource the same goes for an aether vail with 2 counters on it...

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What do you cut for it? Warchief is a million eimts better, plus he's a 1/1 which isn't spectacular, and it makes your undercosted goblins MORE undercosted? Seems like it's not needed.

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Originally Posted by Jujuhawk

What do you cut for it? Warchief is a million eimts better, plus he's a 1/1 which isn't spectacular, and it makes your undercosted goblins MORE undercosted? Seems like it's not needed.

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Sure it's not needed. Until you do not have a Warchief, then it's quite handy all of a sudden. Think of it as Warchief 5-6-7-8.

Same question: What do you cut for it? A deck with 4 Bannerets and 4 Warchiefs would become too thin. What would you use all those cost reductions on?

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Originally Posted by Just me

Sure it's not needed. Until you do not have a Warchief, then it's quite handy all of a sudden. Think of it as Warchief 5-6-7-8.

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Having 8 warchiefs and 3 of them don't give haste doesn't seem good to me. You're actually sacrificing the speed because you're cutting good goblins for the bannerets.

Just for the sake of argument, 8 warchiefs could be useful if the deck is only running 18 land. Also, it increases the chance of getting a warchief into play off of an early lackey, which is potentially epic.

4 Æther Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Mogg Fanatic

4 Frogtosser Banneret
4 Goblin Piledriver/Earwig Squad
4 Warren Weirding

4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Mad Auntie
1 Gempalm Incinerator

4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Wort, Boggart Auntie

2 Siege-Gang Commander

7 Mountain
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Auntie's Hovel
1 Swamp

I've been playing around with this version on Apprentice (solo) for a while now. Here's a few things I'd like say about it.

I think that a lot of people underestimate Frogtosser. This deck gets really explosive on the 3rd turn. Sometimes I follow up with a Warchief and a Matron/Piledriver. If your opponent counters the Frogtosser (and he should), you can still follow up with Warchief or other goblins. Even without Warchief you can still empty your hand really fast... Ringleader on turn 3 etc. Goblins that cost 1 less are dangerous for your opponent but goblins that cost 2 less are overwhelming... Ringleader for 2, Matron for 1. All the Goblins that do matter profit a lot from the double reduced cost. It's only the early ones that don't. I haven't tested with 3 Frogtossers in the deck yet... but yes 4 feels to much. -1 is probably better +1 land.

Auntie's Hovel? Yes that was no mistake. Because there are more black cards in the main deck you want to stay consistent with less lands. Although this might not be optimal. You could replace 3 lands with Ports or Wastes but I wouldn't run both.

// going to replace Piledrivers with Earwig Squads to counter hate cards (loss of green) and vs combo decks. We are already heavy on black sources any ways. Prowl cost also gets a reduction from Warchief and Frogtosser :)

I was wondering if there are any mono-red goblins coming around or is black becoming a standard into the deck. Any chances I could not have a dual landbase

I'm not a Goblin player, but at the Shadowmoor draft I got my behind kicked by Tattermunge Maniac. Might be an idea.

Mono-red Goblins are fine. You'll just have to improvise vs. Tarmogoyf. For what it's worth, I had good experiences with Stingscourger in mono-red as a tempo tool and temporary Goyf-removal. Also, bigger Goblins like Goblin Goon did a fine job against Goyfs.

Anyways, the main reason for Rb is the existence of Warren Weirdings. Wort is a groovy addition, but in no way necessary; I'd rather play SGCs anyways. So yes, you don't really need duals to play this. Badlands are rather cheap though, so they should be a good investment.

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Originally Posted by Avatara

4 Æther Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Mogg Fanatic

4 Frogtosser Banneret
4 Goblin Piledriver/Earwig Squad
4 Warren Weirding

4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Mad Auntie
1 Gempalm Incinerator

4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Wort, Boggart Auntie

2 Siege-Gang Commander

7 Mountain
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Auntie's Hovel
1 Swamp

I've been playing around with this version on Apprentice (solo) for a while now. Here's a few things I'd like say about it.

I think that a lot of people underestimate Frogtosser. This deck gets really explosive on the 3rd turn. Sometimes I follow up with a Warchief and a Matron/Piledriver. If your opponent counters the Frogtosser (and he should), you can still follow up with Warchief or other goblins. Even without Warchief you can still empty your hand really fast... Ringleader on turn 3 etc. Goblins that cost 1 less are dangerous for your opponent but goblins that cost 2 less are overwhelming... Ringleader for 2, Matron for 1. All the Goblins that do matter profit a lot from the double reduced cost. It's only the early ones that don't. I haven't tested with 3 Frogtossers in the deck yet... but yes 4 feels to much. -1 is probably better +1 land.

Auntie's Hovel? Yes that was no mistake. Because there are more black cards in the main deck you want to stay consistent with less lands. Although this might not be optimal. You could replace 3 lands with Ports or Wastes but I wouldn't run both.

// going to replace Piledrivers with Earwig Squads to counter hate cards (loss of green) and vs combo decks. We are already heavy on black sources any ways. Prowl cost also gets a reduction from Warchief and Frogtosser :)

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So you're cutting one of the best goblins in the deck, and the one that makes it so explosive for... Earwig Squad? What are we playing extended?

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Originally Posted by Skeggi

I'm not a Goblin player, but at the Shadowmoor draft I got my behind kicked by Tattermunge Maniac. Might be an idea.

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Again, there's a problem of what to cut. The 1 drops right now are all auto 4-ofs, and most of the other stuff in the deck can't be cut. Finding room for 4 new cards is hardly possibly. Plus, maniac just stares awkwardly at tarmogoyfs..

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Originally Posted by Jujuhawk

Plus, Maniac just stares awkwardly at Tarmogoyfs..

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And then attacks right into it.

I know Bannerets could lead to explosive openings... But is that what the deck really needs? I mean, what bad match-ups does that improve?

It lets you walk into mass removal even more. And also, in the list above, you basically replaced 4 Wastelands with 4 Bannerets. Which of those two cards would help you win the game more?

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Originally Posted by kicks_422

I know Bannerets could lead to explosive openings... But is that what the deck really needs? I mean, what bad match-ups does that improve?

It lets you walk into mass removal even more. And also, in the list above, you basically replaced 4 Wastelands with 4 Bannerets. Which of those two cards would help you win the game more?

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Exactly. Instead of locking thresh out of the game you're playing a 1/1 with haste that probably will just allow you to cast your other banerrets for B.

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Originally Posted by TrialByFire

And then attacks right into it.

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I think his new nickname instead of Nom-Nom should be "Death by Goyf."

If I wanted to add bad goblins, I'd run Torchrunner. I think he'd be funny post-Pyroclasm.

On a more serious note, how does Goon work against Goyf? Sounds hot IMHO, but is he worth slots in the MD?

I disagree with cutting Piledriver for Earwig Squads, however, it's definitely a good card for the sideboard. Vintage goblins plays him as a 4x of maindeck, I'm sure he has a use. Removing Tendrils and other win conditions or parts of painter combo.

Yup, I run 4 Earwigs in my Vintage build and it's been great, because of the general make-up of Vintage decks which rely on a few bombs and lots of draw/tutors. For Legacy, they're better off as SB options, to supplement other combo hate (e.g. Chalice of the Void).