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Wow. That top 8 was savage. I'm surprised by this build as it uses white as a light splash for Geddon, 2 at that, and some sideboard stuff. Definitely unconventional. I'd be interested in hearing from the pilot why not just go full monoblue?Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeggi
I think he really needs the Armageddons, and he has Magus in the sideboard. I guess he can draw enough via Thirst for Knowledge. Another thing that caught my attention were the 3 maindeck Powder Kegs and the 2 Maze of Iths.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
Even with TfK, 2 Armageddon is enough? And with Magus in the board while Geddon is maindecked? I'm not seeing it.
Also, what is he Kegging that he couldn't EE? I'm assuming he wouldn't up Keg to 3 (destroys Crucible, 3sphere), so I'm guessing he usually upped to it 1 or 2; in that scenario, why not EE? He can support it since he's running two colors.
There's a distinct difference between Keg and EE. The first big difference is Gaddock Teeg: Keg deals with him, while EE gets hindered by him. The second major difference, is that EE requires you to keep 2 open mana to activate. Powder Keg goes off for free. The third major difference is that Powder Keg only kills creatures and artifacts (no enchantments).
Just going off the other top 8 lists, I saw lots of Counterbalance, lots of EE, and no Teeg (but other fishy stuff like Confidant, MM, etc). If the top 8 was indicative of the overall field (archetype mix, cards used, etc), then EE seems like it would've been the better choice; even the other top 8 lists were running EE, presumably with the same train of thought.
Nice deck, it does however have a very similar approach to geddon stax, its taxing. And instead of using angels, he would just steal your creature and use it to beat face.
I like thirst of knowledge here, with lots of artifacts we usually run into doubles mid game. Adds draw as well. He could have probably cut smokestack to 3, and added a 3rd armageddon
I find powder keg weird as well, it really does seem like EE would be a lot better. But I wouldn't really know what he had the kegs for. Maybe teeg.
The archmage looks interesting, this could really buy you some time to look for the card that would seal the deal or counter some trouble some cards.
I still dont like windborn muses on the side, I would have rather get prisons instead, powder keg maindeck? how bout o ring? anyway, very interesting deck for a U/w stax
I thought about a Blue Stax list a while ago. The best situation I could come up with was playing that Tabernacle enchantment, Smokestack and Paradox Haze (Enchanted Player gets 2 upkeeps). Probably some more stuff that harms them during the upkeep. Seemed fun, but not viable.
Intuition is actually the single most important and alluring factor in any stax list playing blue. Not playing Intuition was fail. It's so nice to tutor into two lock pieces and an Academy Ruins.
EDIT: Dbl-post. My laptop is fail.
Hello all! I am new to the site, but have trolled here for quite some time reading threads. Here is my version on Stax:
// Lands
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [REW] Wasteland
3 [JGC] Mishra's Factory
4 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
7 [TSP] Plains (4)
// Creatures
4 [PLC] Magus of the Tabernacle
// Spells
3 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
3 [US] Smokestack
4 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
4 [AT] Armageddon
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
3 [NE] Tangle Wire
4 [DS] Trinisphere
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [9E] Defense Grid
SB: 3 [US] Disenchant
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [RAV] Suppression Field
Let me know what you think!
@scrow: Have you found yourself wanting Tangle Wire to be Crucible #4 (which is argueably the second most important card in Stax), Chalice, O-Ring or Smokestack #4? That's easily the most questionable slot in your build.
Yeah I think sometimes I do want a Crucible or an O-ring. But there are games that the Tangle Wire really helped save my ass. Maybe I just have a soft spot for the card, and should try playing without it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Misplayer
What do you think of the list?
This list is teh jank. Tangle Wire isn't nearly as good as the other cards mentioned 2 posts above. My suggestions:Quote:
Originally Posted by scrow213
-1 Flagstones/ +1 Wasteland
-3 Tangle Wire/ +1 Chalice, +1 Smokestack, +1 Crucible
-3 Oblivion Ring/ +3 Something Better
O Ring just doesn't do what you want it to do. There is already enough enchantment kill in the format to deal with Ring pretty well. The only time O Ring is good is against a deck like Threshold or Dreadstill when you get Ring to stick. Even then, it's not stellar. In my list that card is Exalted Angel, but it can be other stuff too.
-3 Disenchant/ +3 Aura of Silence
-4 Relic of Progenitus, -1 Defense Grid/ + some of these other cards:
Humility, Runed Halo, Sphere of Resistance, Trinisphere
Disenchant + Chalice@2 = fail. Aura costs 1 more, has a better ability and is a permanent. It's also free to play the activated ability so you can feel free to tap out.
This deck doesn't have problems with decks that abuse the graveyard, and often popping a relic screws you over. 3 Defense Grid is adequate with Trinisphere. Humility is really bomb against decks like Survival, and often turning Tarmogoyf and Mongoose into 1/1's buys you enough time to fix the game state (Play Prison or Moat, Wastelock them, block with Factory). Runed Halo can stop said Goyf and 'Nought forever. Sphere is another card to bring in against Combo and Burn/Sligh.
Well thank you for the assistance! I love this deck and want to make it everything it can be! I will certainly make the following changes first off:Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick
-3 Tangle Wire
-1 Flagstones of Trokair
+1 Wasteland
+1 Chalice of the Void
+1 Smokestack
+1 Crucible of Worlds
As for the SB, I threw it together off the top of my head. It seems like the deck would struggle with Ichorid, so that's why the Relics are in there (originally Tormod's Crypt). I will also change those Disenchants out. I think I only had them because I don't have Aura on hand at the moment, but I will pick them up.
The rest of the SB however, I am not sure how to change. I don't need Trinisphere SB as I run 4 MD (as I am sure you know, it's a house). What matches do I want Sphere of Resistance for? I will pick those other cards up, but I don't know what my SB should look like.
Finally, how do you SB? I never know what my SB plans are for various decks. I end up screwing something up when I sideboard, so I want to know what cards go in and out for what matches?
Thanks a lot to everyone! I have always wanted to play Stax, and I can actually afford to play it in Legacy!
@Patrick:
While I agree that Tangle Wire is sub-optimal, I wouldn't classify the list as jank. Also, your logic about Oblivion Ring doesn't make sense to me. You claim it doesn't do what you want it to do? It does almost everything I want it to do aside from remove lands. It's the catch all for things this deck cannot answer. What do you do game 1 if your opponent drops a Crucible against you? Your whole gameplan just went out the window because you have no answer for it. You also said "Runed Halo can stop said Goyf and 'Nought forever." It dies to the same enchantment removal as O-Ring. It stops single large beaters as well as Halo, but you obviously sacrifice the ability to deal with multiples in exchange for versatility. Stax is a very very proactive deck but you need reactive answers to resolved threats, which is why I play 4 Oblivion Ring. Magus/Prison + Armageddon is nice but requires a big mana/turn investment. Oblivion Ring is the perfect stop-gap card for Stax. O-Ring is also very valuable when you have an active Smokestack and you're trying to wipe their board. With it you can essentially accelerate their permanent destruction and can often give back a useless permanent if you need to sac the ring eventually. Lastly, if your opponent is Gripping your O-Rings then they're not Gripping your lock pieces.
Aura of Silence is a strong sideboard choice and Disenchant is questionable, but don't rule out Seal of Cleansing. It can answer an early Dreadnought through Daze much easier than Aura, and double-white can often be troublesome. That said, I recently cut 2 Seal of Cleansing for Runed Halo. For reference, here's my current SB config:
4 Rule of Law/CoP: Red (meta choice)
2 Defense Grid (Found this to often be Trinisphere 5-6, so I don't feel that more than 2 are needed)
3 Runed Halo
3 Aura of Silence
2 Suppression Field
1 Ghostly Prison/Smokestack/Trinisphere/Whatever I'm playing 3x main
I also do not agree with 4x Wastelands. Between Mox Diamond and City of Traitors, this deck is very very land hungry, and often the mana produced by wasteland is more crucial than the effect. I do not believe Wasteland is effective as disruption in this deck, but it's synergy with Crucible and Smokestack make it an auto-include. I've rarely found myself Wasting lands early game because I need the mana to play lock pieces. I'm from the school of thought that the benefit of 4x Flagstones (more consistently recovering from Armageddon and hitting land drops under Smokestack) greatly outweighs the drawback (Legendarity/Legendariness(??)). I know many others swear by 3x Flagstones, so it's really a personal choice.
I agree with a lot of what you said as well. I always liked the 4x Flagstones, as they are invaluable at recovering from Armageddon, as well as great fodder for a Smokestack. Wasteland I often play as a mana source instead of disruption, but it is handy to have that land-destruction option as well.
I am now on the fence about Oblivion Ring. I have used it to remove an opposing Crucible in the past, and it is great at dealing with single troublesome threats.
Edit: Fixed.
I'm assuming you mean Oblivion Ring? I've become kind of attached to it too. My metagame is a little stunted, but it's very useful to be able to get rid of opposing crucibles, planeswalkers and suchlike.
I agree. It makes great spot removal, even if it is not a for-sure solution. What are some of the tough matchups for Stax, and how do we prepare/play these matches? I would like to finish building this and start prepping for some tournaments, and would like some extra information. Thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mostly_Harmless
That's... interesting, to say the least.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeggi
Tfk in particular got me thinking. Wouldn't Compulsive Research be superior here ? We do have a lot of land, and would even be able to get it back with a Crucible.
Other reckless idea I just thought of. The thing this deck is doing the most is taxing (magus, smokestack) and / or preventing the opponent from using his cards (chaice, trinisphere, prison). Now, all that stuff is basically going on by itself. My point is... wouldn't Meditate's drawback be a lot less hard on us than on any other kind of deck, barring combo ? It's not like the taxing on the opponent would stop if we were to skip a turn. Actually, it would even be a nice bonus when a Smokestack is on the table (a free additional upkeep of sacrificing on the opponent's side).
I don't have that much time to extensively test this (with the repercussion of a splash on the mana), but on paper, i like it a lot.
I haven't played this deck lately but I do find Tangle Wire to be pretty darn powerful still. It's synergy with the rest of the deck is obvious but it really is like a timewalk or 2 in the early game against all of the control decks.
Now I' don't recall the salient points against it in this thread as I haven't read it in so long but I do agree that in a vacuum a card like oblivion ring is better, however the synergy with smokestack, trinisphere, ghostly prison, and defense grid from the sideboard do I think warrant a second look especially with so much of the DTB metagame being permanent and land light.