[Deck] Solidarity (Reset High Tide)

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Originally Posted by Occisor

Thanks - I appreciate your advice. If putting a meditate in the board is the best idea, should I still try and get tide,reset AND meditate in hand before going off? I realise that this is very situational but I thought they were the "holy trinity" of the deck?

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You should probably ask someone with more experience than myself, but I'll go for it anyway. Like everything involving Solidarity, this really depends on the game state. Ideally, you would always like to have Tide, Reset, and Meditate in hand and at least 4 lands in play when beginning to combo off, but that's far from saying that is the only way to combo. Usually there will be some reason that you are comboing off. For instance:

1) Your opponent just played some hate, and you decide it's best to attempt to combo in response.
2) Your opponent just tapped out.
3) You're facing lethal damage next turn, or even worse, this turn.
4) You simply have the perfect hand.

All you can really do is try to get the best hand possible by the time you get into one of these situations. There's really no way for me to say exactly how you should play out any given hand, but test the deck with a Meditate in the board and you'll find a lot of situations where it'll be useful. Sometimes it's best to grab the Meditate EOT the turn before you combo off. Mostly you'll grab it mid-combo. It really depends on your hand, and your draws, and your opponent's plays, and the game state.

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Originally Posted by Occisor

I was splashing red for a while but found that I really didn't like having 2x volcanic islands, do you feel it is viable running only one? Also I rarely used the starstorm, I assume it's for the threshold matchup but wishing for it then casting it big enough to kill werebears costs 9.

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As far as I know, the Starstorm is there to buy you a lot of time in the Fish matchup. Taking care of True Believer,a couple Meddling Mage, and Dark Confidant (although in this situation Mage is probably naming Cunning Wish, you get my point) all at once can give you a lot of time to work with, and that can be worth burning through Tide/Reset, especially considering that you might not have been able to win otherwise.

That said, I haven't tested the red splash long enough to have used Starstorm, so if you feel like you don't want it, and you're finding Volc well enough when you need it (and not seeing a lot of Stifle in your meta) running 1 with 7 fetches seems fine.

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Originally Posted by Lego_Army_Man

You should probably ask someone with more experience than myself, but I'll go for it anyway. Like everything involving Solidarity, this really depends on the game state. Ideally, you would always like to have Tide, Reset, and Meditate in hand and at least 4 lands in play when beginning to combo off, but that's far from saying that is the only way to combo. Usually there will be some reason that you are comboing off. For instance:

1) Your opponent just played some hate, and you decide it's best to attempt to combo in response.
2) Your opponent just tapped out.
3) You're facing lethal damage next turn, or even worse, this turn.
4) You simply have the perfect hand.

All you can really do is try to get the best hand possible by the time you get into one of these situations. There's really no way for me to say exactly how you should play out any given hand, but test the deck with a Meditate in the board and you'll find a lot of situations where it'll be useful. Sometimes it's best to grab the Meditate EOT the turn before you combo off. Mostly you'll grab it mid-combo. It really depends on your hand, and your draws, and your opponent's plays, and the game state.

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Lego pretty much got it right. It ALL depends on the game state, cards in opponent's hand, what's on the stack waiting to resolve, etc. There isn't a "set" play for this deck really. I've comboed off low tide for a while until finally hitting my first High Tide. I have gone off without ever casting a Meditate. The list goes on about ways to win with this deck. Almost every play with this deck is situational, so use good judgement. If your playing against some landstill deck with no clock, then use that to your advantage and shape the perfect hand. If your playing against Goblins, adjust accordingly. All in all, just follow your instincts.

Nice one guys thanks! I've been playing with the meditate in the board and I'm still not sure about it - whilst I assume that you guys know better, would it be worth considering playing them all main deck and a thirst for knowledge in the board? If the only time you wish for it is mid-combo, you can dump the excess land you've drawn(or a flash of insight) and draw 3. Again I'm happy to work on the assumption that this is garbage :smile: but I'd appreciate your opinion on the idea - I'm fast running out of testing time so I'd like to filter out junk ideas before wasting time testing them! You probably get sick of noobs posting "new tech" but I think it's worth thinking about since I really don't like dropping the meditate from the maindeck.

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Originally Posted by Occisor

Nice one guys thanks! I've been playing with the meditate in the board and I'm still not sure about it - whilst I assume that you guys know better, would it be worth considering playing them all main deck and a thirst for knowledge in the board? If the only time you wish for it is mid-combo, you can dump the excess land you've drawn(or a flash of insight) and draw 3. Again I'm happy to work on the assumption that this is garbage :smile: but I'd appreciate your opinion on the idea - I'm fast running out of testing time so I'd like to filter out junk ideas before wasting time testing them! You probably get sick of noobs posting "new tech" but I think it's worth thinking about since I really don't like dropping the meditate from the maindeck.

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I don't see the purpose to run TFK in this deck.

1.) It draws 3 cards, thus making it already worse than Meditate in my opinion.

2.) Also, if it is in the board, then Wishing for it and casting it pre-combo would be a weaker play than casting a Meditate pre-combo.

I see where your coming from where it is nice to dump lands and Flash of Insight, but lets be realistic about this. It draws 3 cards, NOT 4.

EDIT: What you cut in the board for TFK as well? TFK draws some cards, but it just isn't strong enough.


The reason I feel it is better to run Meditate in the sideboard is because of the odds of "drawing" one. With one Meditate in the board, you just added "3" more Meditates via Cunning Wish. Trading that one maindeck slot for a versatile one in the sideboard is def. worth it. Trust me, running a Meditate in the board just gives you more ways/chances to get one when you need it.

Thanks again - I can dump that plan then, I'll stick with the meditate in the board!

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Originally Posted by Occisor

If the only time you wish for it is mid-combo

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This is an assumption that you shouldn't make. It's difficult to pigeon-hole any card in Solidarity. There are certainly going to be times pre-combo when you are going to need to Cunning Wish for Meditate. For instance, when playing against Deadguy I've cast Cunning Wish at the end of my opponent's turn to get Meditate, and then cast it at the end of his next turn, regaining a lot of the card advantage lost from his earlier assault on my hand. It's much better, obviously, to have the Meditate in hand over the Cunning Wish to begin with, but 1 in the board means either Cunning Wish or Meditate could put me back in the game at this point. This is just one example. Even if it's not the primary use of the card in the board, I'm sure there are other times when you'll grab Meditate before you combo.

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Originally Posted by Lego_Army_Man

Even if it's not the primary use of the card in the board, I'm sure there are other times when you'll grab Meditate before you combo.

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Meditate is actually my most common target for Cunning Wish. I'll grab it any time I'm holding Tide/Untap and am not staring at something annoying like Mage or Chalice.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

Meditate is actually my most common target for Cunning Wish. I'll grab it any time I'm holding Tide/Untap and am not staring at something annoying like Mage or Chalice.

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I would always grab it under that situation as well. I can't remember if that's more common than other situations, but you make a good point either way.

So as an average, what turn do you combo on average? I've bee practising against goblins and a sligh-type deck my friend is thinking of bringing, and quite often I have to try and go off on turn 3 or 4. I've found with the meditate in the board and the think twices over opts, I seem to fizzle more often due to a shortage of mana. Is this just a combination of bad draws and plays, or is it an accepted trade off over the old build?

I never switched over to think twice. I can see it's justification for inclusion, but I like how 4 opt keeps my overall card quality a lot more consistent. Nor have I even considered going to the red splash. I'd rather test green for determined first.

I'm inclined to take the middle ground and run 3x opt and 2x think twice. I read about the green splah for determined and thought it seemed strong, apart from the added vunerability to wasteland.

was there ever a consideration for a white splash for either chant or abeyance?

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Originally Posted by thelfj

was there ever a consideration for a white splash for either chant or abeyance?

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Yup, quite awhile back. I'd try looking at the beginning pages of the thread to find it and why it isn't used.

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Originally Posted by Occisor

So as an average, what turn do you combo on average? I've bee practising against goblins and a sligh-type deck my friend is thinking of bringing, and quite often I have to try and go off on turn 3 or 4. I've found with the meditate in the board and the think twices over opts, I seem to fizzle more often due to a shortage of mana. Is this just a combination of bad draws and plays, or is it an accepted trade off over the old build?

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The "average" turn to combo off for Solidarity is generally turn 4. However, turn 3 combos are very possible with multiple High Tides, and a turn 2 has been pulled off by Gearhart before I believe. Obviousely the more time given the better, but by turn 4 you should have a somewhat compatible hand. Anyways, you are 100% correct in the sense that Think Twice is significantly slower than Opt. Often times, Opt is used to find that second or third land, and against these Goblin/Sligh decks your testing against, you def. do not want to miss a land drop. If you are looking to speed your deck up, then cut the Think Twices. I personally don't like Think Twice, as I think it is slow. It has it's advantages when you get Hymned and stuff like that, and it gives you more true card advantage when the game gets drawn out, but I just don't like the card. It's your call, but yes, Opt is faster than Think Twice.

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Originally Posted by Anarky87

Yup, quite awhile back. I'd try looking at the beginning pages of the thread to find it and why it isn't used.

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I dunno, but if more Epic Storm shows up, it may be tempting to revisit. Orim's Chant is nice here, and Swords to Plowshares would be a godsend against Xantid Swarm.

Against Xantid Swarm Pongify works alright and Echoing Truth is great for those Goblin Tokens.
The red splash might also be quite good because between City of Brass and Plunge into Darkness your opponent will deal a good amount of damage to himself giving you an opportunity to burn him out in response.

The new Pirate Charm would be a better out against Zantid Swarm, since it also could be used to discard their last spell in respons to the 2nd last.

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Originally Posted by lillelassie

The new Pirate Charm would be a better out against Zantid Swarm, since it also could be used to discard their last spell in respons to the 2nd last.

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True but Pongify also deals with Meddling Mage, True Believer and other random creatures that are too big for Piracy Charm.
Anyway is there still a valid reason to play Chain of Vapor over other bounce or removal spells? I can see how Wish -> Chain is nice as you can play both at the same turn with only 4 mana but are there really any targets you can't wait until turn 5 to bounce?

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I've been playing with the meditate in the board and I'm still not sure about it

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I might be the lone dissenter, but I don't like Meditate in the sideboard. I think it's unnecessary, since I already have two draw spells to wish for - Stroke of Genius and Brain Freeze.

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So as an average, what turn do you combo on average?

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Turn 4 is the average. Turn 5 is pretty common. Turn 3 if you're holding double High Tide (ideally) but these hands are rare and prone to fizzling. In general, you wait as long as you can, and then attempt to combo off with what you got.

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I've found with the meditate in the board and the think twices over opts, I seem to fizzle more often due to a shortage of mana.

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If you're trying to combo off on turn 4 more consistently, Think Twice is bad. TT is meant for a slower meta of aggro control and discard decks. Personally, I go with 4 Opts.

In my experience, mana shortage is the main reason this deck fizzles, which is why I run the 7 Tides (3 Tides MD, 1 Tide as wish target). This increases my chances of finding a Tide and, just as important, a second Tide.

At this point, I'm tired of arguing with the people who believe that all the Meditates should be in the maindeck. Honestly, I played it, and after doing all the calculations and all the testing, I found that a Meditate to Wish for is much better. Saying Stroke and Freeze are your 'draw' spells is ludicrous. Freeze is an awful 'draw' spell and Stroke is ridiculously inefficient. Also, after doing a hefty amount of goldfish games with a variety of maindeck/board configurations, I can tell you with certainty that a Tide in the board is awful. It decreases the chance of going off turn 3 by an incredibly high margin, and it interferes with the curve in addition to weakening the prospects of a turn 4 go off. I also found that Think Twice did not have as disastrous consequences on my turn 4 go offs as some people have been led to believe. You know what though? It appears that the dissenters will NOT believe me. That's fine. I'll admit I'm a bit irritated with them, but it's their opinion and they are entitled to it. However, a cautionary word is in order. Disregarding what I say about the deck that I know the most about is an invitation to disaster. I've tested EVERYTHING that has been brought up here. What you see now is the culmination of all that experience. In fact, I'll let a couple of tidbits loose right now. Tacosnape, sorry to disappoint you, but the green spash was ineffective. I tested Determined, Seedtime, and even Xantid Swarm. Honestly, they didn't do enough in the matchups that you want them to. In fact, the list of cards I've tested is retarded. Many of them weren't even instants (you can probably surmise how these particular ones ended up). I'll just finish by reminding all those disbelievers out there to tread carefully and at your own peril. That is all.