Hangerback Walker + Trading Post seems hilarious if anyone who still cares about this deck wants to try it.
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Hangerback Walker + Trading Post seems hilarious if anyone who still cares about this deck wants to try it.
What benifit does this have over traditional Rest in Peace & Helm of Obedience? RiP has collateral advantage of giving many decks a bad day and then you win on the spot with Helm.Quote:
Originally Posted by monovfox
Walker/Post is a grindy mana intensive win condition that would take several turn over to generate lethal attacks. Am I missing something?
It's cute post board if they remove creature hate i suppose, but is too squishy to plow and terminus, and will not work against stony silence which often comes in against helm/top in my experience. Doesn't play nice with humility either. That said of testing proves otherwise let us know where it shines.Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateKing
Top 4'd a 21 player event with this list on Sunday. I'm really happy with the main deck, might make a few sideboard changes going forward. Just wondering if anyone had an opinion on it.
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Orim's Chant
4 Rest in Peace
3 Helm of Obedience
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Wath of God
2 Isochron Scepter
2 Council's Judgement
1 Unexpectedly Absent
1 Humility
1 Moat
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Karakas
4 Scrying Sheets
19 Snow-Covered Plains
SB:
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Containment Priest
2 Path to Exile
1 Wrath of God
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Serenity
1 Aura of Silence
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Conversion
1 Pithing Needle
Nice. Which decks did you face and how did the games go against them?Quote:
Originally Posted by 1337erhosen
Likewise, I'd appreciate hearing more about your matchups. I'm ~10 cards away from finishing a Quinn build that looks very similar to yours, but I don't have any idea what it will be good/bad against.Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
@runed halo: I think its best targets are Eidolon of the Great Revel, JtMS and TNN. Other than that it just names the thing you can't deal with at the time. I have moved away from them but if there is a lot of burn in your meta it might be cute.
@1337erhosen: Congrats on the finish looks like a pretty stock mono white list. I would also be interested in what you played against. How was Moat for you? I switched from Moat to Ensnaring Bridge because I found that the treats that mattered had flying and getting to hellbent isn't hard with this deck.
@Stuart: Good match ups are decks that want to win with creatures. Bad match ups are Counter Balance decks as counter/top is almost are hard lock against us beyond that targeted discard can be rough for us. We don't run FoW so we are a dog to storm game one but we have tools for games 2/3.
I am glad to see that the tread has some life again. I have been jamming and brewing with Quinn for awhile and it has been fun.
I use Halo for redundancy vs storm to keep them off of easy tendrils too. It's not ideal but sometimes helpful to have an extra piece of hate. Still I've also moved mine to sideboard as they're somewhat limited in a lot of matchups. I need to pick up a bridge myself, its one of the missing pieces for my build. Miracles/counterbalance decks are a nightmare. I'm trying a green splash for choke and city of solitude to help that matchup. Still in its early phases, but the choke has been useful in a couple matchups already.Quote:
Originally Posted by WarpWorld
I finished building Quinn a few weeks ago, and last night I took it to Pat's Games to break it in. My list:
4 SDT
2 Isochron Scepter
1 Runed Halo
1 O Ring
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Humility
4 RIP
3 Helm
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
4 STP
4 Orim’s Chant
3 E Tutor
2 Unexpectedly Absent
2 Council’s Judgment
2 Terminus
1 Wrath of God
2 Kor Haven
4 Scrying Sheets
17 Snow Covered Plains
2 Cursed Totem
2 Disenchant
2 Ray of Distortion
2 Porphyry Nodes
2 Terminus
2 Aethersworn Canonist
3 Pithing Needle
I won’t run through the specifics of my matches, but the results were:
- Round 1: Stoneblade: 1-2
- Round 2: Goblin Stompy: 2-0
- Round 3: Burn: 2-1
- Round 4: RW Allies: 2-1
The deck felt really good! Austin’s meta has been leaning heavily towards fair/midrange/creature decks, so I think this is a good time to play Quinn. I have lots of initial thoughts and impressions:
- This is my first time playing Sensei’s Divining Top, and I’ll just say damn. That card is good. I think all the games I lost were games I either didn’t draw Top or my opponent dealt with it. With that in mind, might it make sense to work in a backup filtering option, like Scroll Rack?
- The Snow engine is funny. In shorter games, it’s completely unimportant (and the Sheets open you up to color screw and Wasteland). However, it was awesome in games that went long. Part of me wants some Fetches to improve the early Top spins, but that would also weaken the late-game Snow engine. I think I’ll stick with my current manabase for now.
- Wrath of God and Humility both felt great. I might want to bump up to 2 of each, though in Humility's case, E Tutor helps.
- I’d considered cutting the singleton Leyline, and I’m glad I didn’t: in my match against Burn, it was in my opening hand all 3 games! I felt like a jerk :cry:. If Burn or Storm become more common, I might want to find room for 3 more in the board.
- Isochron Scepte seemed neither terrible or amazing. I was worried it would get eaten alive by Abrupt Decay, but that didn't really happen. However, I only got 1 lock down with it (STP vs Goblin Stompy).
- I didn’t get a good read on Elspeth. Her tokens were occasionally relevant, but unless my opponent only had 1 creature out, they could easily just overwhelm her. I guess timing is everything - I should hold her up until after a Wrath or Terminus.
- RIP/Helm is awesome, but I kind of want another win-con in the board that can't be Needled or Revokered. I'm not sure what that win-con would be, though. Maybe Entreat the Angels? Seems worse here than it is in Miracles, what with our lack of Brainstorm.
- I think I’ll eventually need to rework the sideboard. The issue I ran into is that while I usually had relevant tools to bring in, the maindeck has so many answers that I never knew what to cut. Maybe I should switch to a board with more 1-ofs.
- It's nice that a turn 1 Top makes people suspect Miracles, and then once you get going they have no idea what you're on.
So yeah, 3-1 felt like a good start with the deck. I'm assuming things will get harder as local players become familiar with the deck. I'll also admit that my matchups were very favorable, though that's kind of why I'm playing Quinn to begin with. Good old metagaming.
Anyway, I think I'm playing the deck again tonight. We'll see what happens.
Took the same deck over to Mage's Sanctum for Legacy FNM tonight, going 3-1!Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart
- Round 1: Goblins: 2-1
- Round 2: Bant Stasis/Tradewind Rider craziness: 2-1
- Round 3: Jund: 1-2
- Round 4: OmniTell: 2-1
Top, Isochron, Humility, and Terminus were the heroes of the night. I'm really liking this deck.
Glad to see you having fun and success with the deck. Your list looks like a pretty solid stock list to me. The only change I might make would be to cut an Elspeth for something else. I would be interested to hear more about your matches and your thoughts on them. I agree that this is a good meta for us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart
Cheers Warp. I don't have a good read on Elspeth yet. Sometimes she's been fine, other times mediocre. I'm considering Entreat the Angels, Survival Cache, or Timely Reinforcements, so maybe they could go in her place.Quote:
Originally Posted by WarpWorld
Re. matches, here's what I can remember of Thursday night:
- Round 1: Stoneblade 1-2: Game 1 he doesn't know what I'm on, and I just pick away his creatures until I combo off. Game 2 he drops a Batterskull that I can never answer (stupid bounce ability :mad:). Game 3 he gets a quick Sylvan Library followed by a Jace, which is too much for me to deal with.
- Round 2: Goblin Stompy: 2-0: Game 1 he bricked on his land draws and doesn't have any prison pieces, so I pick off his creatures and then combo off relatively quickly. Game 2 he has some pressure, but again no prison pieces. I drop a Humility followed by a Scepter with STP on it and win.
- Round 3: Burn: 2-1: Somehow my singleton Leyline is in my opener every single game, which contributes a lot :cool:. Game 2 he got me by going turn 1 Guide, turn 2 Guide + Swiftspear, turn 3 Guide. The other games I just picked off his creatures and was safe from spells.
- Round 4: RW Allies: 2-1: This is one of our best local players who's normally on UR Burn, but is brewing Allies as a creature combo deck. Unfortunately, this seems like his worst possible matchup. I repeatedly sweep the board. The game he wins I believe was because of some timely Wear/Tears dealing with a Humility, etc.
Last night:
- Round 1: Goblins: 2-1: Game 1 I STP his turn 1 Lackey, which slows him down a lot. I took over that game fairly easily, as I hit my sweepers and he didn't have any meaningful Waste/Port action. Game 2 he overhelmed me quickly. Game 3 I got out a humility to slow him down, but he was still able to swing for ~6 a turn. I dropped a RIP, he beat me to 3, I spun the top on the end of his turn and saw the Helm, then on my turn played and activated it for the win.
- Round 2: Bant: 2-1: Game 1 he locked me out pretty hard with Tradewind Rider, Noble Heirach, and Quirion Ranger. Game 2 I swept the board after he'd played a couple creatures, then got a Scepter + Chant and he scooped. Game 3 he dropped a Stasis, but eventually couldn't pay for it. When my lands opened up I swept the board and built my combo shortly thereafter.
- Round 3: Jund: 1-2: I don't remember much of game 1; I think I just picked off his creatures and then combo'd out. Game 2 he did what Jund does and wrecked me. Game 3 he bricked on land draws for at least 6 turns, and was stuck on 2 lands. I meanwhile cast a bunch of Tops, RIPs, and kill spells for whatever he played. However, I never saw an E Tutor or Helm, so eventually he started hitting his lands, dropping more threats, Bolting me, Kolaghan's Commanding me, and then killing me.
- Round 4: Omni: 2-1: Game 1 he kept a hand with 1 Island, then Brainstorm locked himself into a hand full of combo pieces and no land. Game 2 he cast a SnT; he put in Omniscience and I put in Humility. He played a Griselbrand and Emrakul into my Humility, not knowing what it did to them and then feeling bad. On my turn I played a Scepter with StP and felt great. His turn, he topdecked a Burning Wish, got his Enter the Infinite and did what Omni does. Game 3 I got a quick Scepter + Chant, followed by an Aethersworn Canonist. After some turns of him not being able to cast anything and me beating for 2, he scooped.
Thanks for the reporting. More leylines might not be a bad idea. Also something along the lines of Ghostly Prison, Ensnaring Bridge or Moat would be good to lock them out of attacking. Ensnaring Bridge > Moat > Ghostly Prison. I do like the idea of Timely Reinforcements and will be testing this week with an up coming local. I have been on the red splash myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart
1-3 last night :rolleyes: . Made a couple tweaks to the list: I swapped my 2 Unexpectedly Absent for 2 Warping Wail, a Plains for a Mouth Of Ronom, and moved some sideboard cards around.
- Round I: Goblin Stompy: 0-2: He got a turn 1 Rabblemaster both games, and I was just a turn or 2 too slow to catch up with it. Afterwards we played 2 fun games and I got him in those, so I'm still confident about this matchup.
- Round II: Lands: 2-0: Maindeck RIP + StP does soooo much work.
- Round III: Aluren: 0-2: I was intrigued to see how this matchup would be. Turns out, it's not great. He disrupted me for long enough to assemble his combo, which our cards have a tough time interacting with.
- Round IV: Elves: 0-2: This feels like it should be a good matchup, but game 1 Ruric Thar and game 2 mulling to a shitty 5 didn't tell me much about it :laugh:.
I'm dropping Warping Wail; it was stuck in my hand many games. Trying out 2 Timely Reinforcements in its place. I also kinda want to test Land Tax/Scroll Rack, maybe replacing Isochron.
Probably playing this in Houston this weekend, so I'll report back in a few days!
I'm back from my weekend in Houston, which was basically 48 hours of playing Magic, drinking beer, and eating very unhealthy food. As part of that, I took Quinn to Asgard Games on Saturday and went 2-2. Pairing were:
- Round I: Kavu Predator/False Cure: 2-0
- Round II: Patriot Stoneblade: 0-2
- Round III: Grixis Delver: 0-2
- Round IV: BUG Delver: 2-0
Highlights:
- The fact that Kavu Predator was being played. Someone at my shop has also been playing it lately, but I wasn't sure if that was just an anomaly.
- Meeting the Source's very own Esper3K! He was a really nice opponent, and wiped the floor with me on Stoneblade. Also, his deck was P.I.M.P.
- In game 2, my BUG opponent mulled to 2, drew back up to a full 7 AND started discarding before he hit a land. I, meanwhile, sat there durdling with a hand full of creature kill. This was the worst mana screw/variance I've ever seen.
- Asgard recently put in a bar, which the Source's very own TheCrav was bartending! It was cool to hang out and shoot the Magical shit with him for a little bit.
Changes to be made:
- I dropped the Mouth of Ronom and Warping Wails in favor of a Snow Covered Plains and 2 Timely Reinforcements. I think the Plains was the right call; it sucks when you flood on nonbasics. Timely seems OK so far; I'd say it's better than Wail. However the 6 point life swing is less impactful than it looks on paper, and it's annoying that it won't get you any tokens after a Wrath. In other words, they might eventually be replaced with something better.
- I'm thinking of dropping my 2 Isochron Scepter for 2 Tithe. Scepter is obviously awesome when it works, but it's such a huge target that I rarely land one without it being countered, discarded, Abrupt Decayed, etc. Tithe sounds good to me as a non-Abrupt Decayable way to shuffle away bad Top spins, and as a means to fix our mana - Quinn realllly doesn't work if you miss your land drops.
- I'm also gonna try switching Elspeth for Baneslayer Angel. Elspeth has been underwhelming, and I've consistently wanted something to end games quicker.
Land (24)
14 Snow-covered Plains
1 Snow-covered Mountain
1 Plateau
3 Arid Mesa
3 Scrying Sheets
1 Mouth of Ronom
1 Kor Haven
Creature (2)
2 Ethersworn Cannonist
Instant (14)
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Enlightened Tutors
2 Orim's Chant
2 Unexpectedly Absent
2 Warping Wail
1 Lightning Helix
Sorcery (3)
2 Council's Judgment
1 Wrath of God
Artifact (11)
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Lotus Petal
2 Helm of Obedience
2 Isochron Scepter
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ensnaring Bridge
Enchantment (5)
3 Rest in Peace
1 Humility
1 Blood Moon
Plainswalker (1)
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Sideboard (15)
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 Wear // Tear
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Aegis of Honor
1 Humility
Took this list to a 44 player event and endded a sad 1-3 drop. It felt ok on the day. I will be making some changes going forward. The matchups were as follows:
Round 1 : Lands
Game 1 took 30 minutes and was a beating. He was playing a Worm Harvest which was annoying. Ensnaring Bridge kept Marit Lage at bay and eventually the worms when I could get hellbent. He finally scooped when I drew my first RiP.
Game 2 looked kinda like game one but I lead on a turn 2 moon he had the forest and k . grip for it. I went for a fast combo and he had k. grip number 2 for my RiP. I proceeded to locked the game up faster and scooped in turns.
1-0
Round 2 : TES
Games 1 he had a turn 2 win and game 2 I mulled to 5 for action and died to goblins by turn 3.
1-1
Round 3 : Esper death blade
Game 1 came down to him having a TNN and equipment and me not finding an answer in time.
Game 2 : It was back and forth for a while untill I got a Chant lock going. He eventually found a k . grip for it but by that point I had locked out the board. He found 2 Deathrite Shamans and drained me out before I could find more answers.
1-2
Round 4 : Grixis Delver
Game 1 was going well. I stabilized the board with him having no cards in hand at 3 life with an active Elspeth providing the beats and he top decked a bolt.
Game 2 I mulled to 6 and got stuck on 2 lands.
1-3 drop
I didn't ever really feel like I was out of any of the games I played and that they were all really close.
Warping Wail vs. Blood Moon is a thing and it does come up from time to time but Warping Wail felt strong. I would like to keep trying Warping Wail for a bit. I was disappointed in Mouth of Ronom on the day and wished it was a Darksteel Citadel.
The Lotus Petals in the MD were a nod to the need for red mana. They do feel necessary for the red splash and being able to drop things a turn sooner can be big. They also help you lower the number of cards in your hand for Ensnaring Bridge.
On the red splash. Blood Moon either drew a counter or removal everytime I saw it. Which is one less spell for our other threats. Wear // Tear was easily the best card out of my board all day. I almost always could two for one with it. Being able to hit equipment was big it also got a Sylvan Library and an Exploration. I did get to blast a few spells in post board games which allowed me to resolve some of my lock pieces which was nice.
A few people asked about Painter's Servant to help with the blasts. Painter's was the win con before RiP was printed and I had considered it and I might give it a go but I am not sure it is worth it.
All that being said I think the mono White list is the better way to go and we're you will most likely find me next. I will continue to push the red and see if maybe a W/R list is a thing. The other direction for a splash would be blue for things like Back to Basics and Brainstorm but again not sure that it is better than mono White. Things to think about and try. Look forward to continuing the development of the deck.
@ Stuart: SFM with Batterskull and Jitte could be another opton for a faster clock. Kinda was running with it for a while.
Tough luck, Warp. TES, Grixis, and Stoneblade all feel like poor matchups, with varying degrees of winability.
- Against TES, your only hope is that they're slow, you Terminus their tokens, or you've got a Leyline/Runed Halo for Tendrils.
- Grixis is rough because Delver decks can always just tempo you to death, but at least you have removal for their creatures. The problem I have with them is that I can pick off their early threats, but I have trouble closing out the game before they rebuild and finish me off.
- Stoneblade feels like it should be easier, but I'm now 0-3 to it :laugh:.
On some level, you could argue that Quinn is just an outdated deck: it's not great against most of the DtB. On the flip side, I feel like local metas are having this rogue-brew/fair-deck renaissance, and Quinn is well positioned in that atmosphere.
Switching to Painter/Stone would be interesting if you're on the red splash, but maindeck RIP is just too good to pass up.
I've had a few people mention the blue splash to me; in addition to the cards you've mentioned, blue also offers Energy Field. However, I'm not 100% convinced there isn't a reason to even play Quinn at that point. Just play Miracles :laugh:
What do you think about the Parfait lists in the New Development deck thread? I see a bunch of players been having some success with it. I see a lot of similarities to the Quinn list above, but you'd also get Land Tax/Scroll Rack engine + Terminus. It just seems they're able to accomplish much the same for less, what are your thoughts on Quinn vs Parfait?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart
I hadn't been paying attention to the thread, but there are some really interesting ideas there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystical_Jackass
- I want to try out the Land Tax/Scroll Rack engine at some point. However, I can't imagine leaving home without Top. It's just such a good card, and doesn't need any other cards to make it good (though it's obviously better with shuffle effects).
- Either deck should play Terminus, in my opinion. Scroll Rack would be nice here as a way to get Terminus out of your hand.
- If I were to add Land Tax, I think Zuran Orb is clever. Our deck struggles to really fast damage, like Burn or Delver, and Orb lets us battle that while playing well with Land Tax.
- Solitary Confinement is an interesting thought. As mentioned in the Parfait thread, at worst it's frequently a 2W Time Walk. I'll say, though, that having played Enchantress for the past 3 months, Solitary can be very hard to play correctly.
- I LOVE the idea of Charbelcher. Dunno if I'd play it, but that would throw so many people off their game . . .
- Ultimately, I think a hybrid between the two decks could be good. I'm still new to Quinn, but I feel like the snow engine isn't that important to the deck. Sure, it's nice for filtering if the game goes long, but there are lots of short/medium length games where a Scrying Sheets is significantly worse than a Plains. If you cut that, you could start moving more and more into Parfait territory and arriving at a more optimized Mono-W control deck, which has some good potential right now.
Nice meeting you, Stuart! Hope to see you around again in the future.