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This is where opinions differ.Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanpei
In my opinion Chain is by far the worst card against Leyline. Randomotherstuff is where chain shines, imo. Also, I did not EVER side in 4 copies of Ancient Grudge. Never felt it was needed. And with a lot more extractions runnign around, the card gets worse. Claim is no Anti- Crypt card, too. It can be, but that's not what it's for.
How is chain bad against leyline? Chain bounces leyline, making it hard to recast or if they can, you just strip it with therapy. Also it's much easier to cast with + 4 mana sources to cast it from. Yes, there are plenty of surgicals running around now, which makes chain such a good card. It does something against surgical based decks. Either by bouncing a tarmogoyf or by eating a germ token, it can do many things. It is the best card to board in when you suspect a split of crypts and surgical. Chain is never a dead card and is always useful.
Claim is a more flexible catch all anti hate card in the board if you can't run both grudges and chains. It isn't even strictly better than chain vs leyline simply because chain is easier to cast. I appreciate your opinion though. To each his own.
It's just that I prefer leyline to be destroyed, not bounced.
The flexibility in Nature's Claim isn't the most important think, even though important. The main thing is that, using Claim, you get an edge against black decks running Leyline because they won't recast it. When they open with Leyline, sometimes it takes some time until you can win after you bounce it, giving them the chance of playing Leyline from hand.
When they are not in Black, or they don't open with Leyline, the best option among these that destroys Leyline (Emerald Charm, Wispmare, Demystify and Nature's Claim) is Claim because it can be used to destroy some relevant artifact like Jitte.
Well, at least these are the reasons I play Claim over Chain or say Emerald Charm, but I understand the reason to play Chain, since it can help against some random stuff, and as said, it's seldom a dead card.
There are always corner cases where the one or the other is better. What to run depends on the metagame (because the metagame makes some corner cases more likely than others.
Pro Wispmare:
- Can be DRed
- Isn't hit by Misstep.
In general, it's biggest selling point is now gone, so I wouldn't run it any more.
Pro Chain:
- Can hit random stuff like dangerous creatures (KotR, Goyf) or just et your opponent back a turn by bouncing some other random stuff.
- Can hit Reanimator's dudes, most importantly It that Betrays, Elesh and Blazing Archon. Those aren't really played atm though.
Pro Claim:
- Deals with Leyline permanently
- Also hits random stuff and deals with that permanently (although it doesn't hit creatures)
- The 4 life is usually not relevant but as I'm talking about corner cases it should be mentioned.
Pro Ray of Revelation:
- Can be cast twice
The fact that it's 2cc when it's most important (read, when you have to kill Leyline) pretty much kills it for me at the moment.
At the moment I run a set of Claims. Still I won't fault anyone for running Chains if he can justify it. Wispmare and Ray are clearly inferior in the current metagame.
Honestly the only real difference between Chain and Claim vs hate is that Claim does a better job of forcing the Crypt or Relic activation, if you cut Ancient Grudge (which you should, because decks are playing extremely diversified hate) you'll have plenty of room for both.
Little tournament report, and some hawt techs.
Main Deck [60]
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel
4 Putrid Imp
3 Firestorm
2 Tireless Tribe
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Gogari Thug
1 Darkblast
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Dread Return
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
Sideboard [15]
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void !!!
SB: 4 Chain of Vapor
SB: 3 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 Dread Return
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
You read it, Leyline of the Void! Our worst nightmare turning into some goodies. After some brainstorming in Surgical Extraction/Extirpate hate, that has been used extensively in the past few months, I've reached the conclusion that what makes Surgical Extraction a house is Snapcaster Mage, as it should be obvious to anyone here.
So, after testing Purify the Grave/Coffin Purge for a while, I'd say that they've saved me 25~30% of the times I've used them, which is pretty low, actually. So, why not go back to the good old days of Leyline of the Void? I mean, it'll protect your Bridges from Below, protect yourself against Snapcaster trickery (and to lesser extent: Life from the Loam, Punishing Fire, Knight of the Reliquary, etc..), and still get a very nice card against Reanimator (which seems a pretty bad matchup) and mirror. Ah, it can be very useful against Past in Flames storm, which seems to have a place in every list nowdays.
We're about to open 3~4 slots in sideboard to those Purge/Purify, and I've just swapped them for those Leylines, so that's not a wasted sideboard space.
Now, the little report:
1- Elfball with Vengevine (on the draw): (2-0)
G1: He starts with GSZ into Dryad Arbor. I play Gemstone Mine and pass. He plays Llanowar Elves and Nettle Sentinel. To his misfortune, I had a Firestorm @3 just to rain on his parade, and followed by a Cephalid Coliseum to seal the deal.
In: +2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite +1 Dread Return +1 Iona, Shield of Emeria -2 Ichorid, -1 Cabal Therapy -1 Tireless Tribe
G2: He starts with Forest into Llanowar Elves. I play PImp and pass. He plays Heritage Druid and Nettle Sentinel, then plays Gaea's Craddle and makes a bunch of stuff, and manages to stick like 7~8 elves. I discard my Stinkweed Imp, and dredge nothing good. I discard my Stinkweed Imp again, cast Careful Study, Stinkweed Imp fizzles the chain dredging, but my second draw is... Breakthrough! Lucky me. Discard my Imp again, play my City of Brass and Breakthrough to find my Elesh Norn.
2- U/W Stoneblade (on the play): (2-0)
G1: His double Swords to Plowshares isn't enough to hold me down, as I therapy his Batterskull and his dream of winning game 1.
In: +4 Leyline of the Void -1 Dread Return -3 Breakthrough
G2: I land a Leyline of the Void, and his eyes pop out in surprise. We play back and forth a little, and I get Surgical Extraction on my Golgari Grave-Troll. He gets massive beatings from my zombies, and manage to Wrath of God them all, but my lone Putrid Imp is able to make three more Zombies. After a while, Ichorids joins the party and it's over. After he scoops, he shows me a Snapcaster Mage and double Crucible of Worlds, lol.
3- U/W/r Stoneblade (on the play): (1-2)
G1: Kept a poor hand, I got punished severely. He lands a turn 3 Batterskull and plows my Putrid Imp. My Stinkweed Imp can dredge no business and I scoop.
In: +4 Leyline of the Void -1 Dread Return -3 Breakthrough
G2: Kept this seven: City of Brass, Cephalid Coliseum, Stinkweed Imp, Putrid Imp, Breakthrough, Careful Study, Leyline of the Void. Pretty much everything I needed. He lands an useless Grim Lavamancer and I just roll him over.
G3: Kept a keepable no dredger hand (Pimp and double Careful Study) but also no Leyline of the Void, but one of my CS gets FoW'd and the other finds me no Dredgers. Lose terribly to Stoneforge Mystic equipped with SoFF.
4- Reanimator (on the draw): (2-1)
G1: He starts with Underground Sea. My Tribe gets FoW'd, and he Entomb EOT grabbing Jin Gitaxias, and Animate Dead on his turn. Can't beat those kind of hands, lol.
In: +4 Leyline of the Void -1 Dread Return -1 Ichorid -1 Breakthrough -1 Darkblast
G2: I mulligan to 5, and finally find my Leyline of the Void. He just scoops as he has no bounce for it.
G3: He mulligans to 6, and I keep my double Leyline opener plus Putrid Imp and Golgari Grave-Troll. He sadly stares at my double Leyline of the Void and try to do some library manipulation, but by the time he's able to bounce both Leylines, I have 6 zombie tokens and 2 active Ichorids for his misfortune.
This little tournament was for fun, in my friend's house. No prizes nor anything. Just the good Pizza Beer Magic night.
Sorry for the long post. Any advices or comments?
I have one... How do you feel about the 9 discard outlets, don't you think it's too many? I reckon you are using them because you want the 6 perma outlets, but still likes Firestorm, but can't you move one of them to the side? Maybe 1 of the Firestorms to side, and increase consistancy with a Dredger or a Tarnished...
Despite this minor comment, the list looks like the regular list with firestorms, and it's good to see it doing well anyways ^^
Interesting trick with the Leylines, I wouldn't think of siding them in against UW. This is some serious subject there.
Very Good lesons about sideboarding !!!!
Thanks a lot
9 Discard Outlets is fine in my metagame, lots of blue decks here. I've tested it a bit and liked it so far.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gui
I would always side Leyline against U/W Stoneblade because they use Snapcaster Mage as 3~4 of. And that's a pretty good number to use double Surgical Extraction consistently.
I told you I run 4x Leyline on page 126. :)
They answer a lot of our problem cards/archetypes right now.
It's not exactly a new tech to use LotV... the very first Dredge list I used already had it, and it was copied from Deutsch players, so...Quote:
Originally Posted by laststepdown
The point is, I know it is solution to Reanimator (at least partially if they don't S&T anything) and it is great for the mirror, will be useful against loam decks and lands.dec, so it IS worth the slot. But is it the solution to people using Snapcaster + Extraction?
It prevents the interaction, and prevents bridges from being removed, but is it enough, or, worthy the mulligans?
(this was what I meant for serious discussion)
And btw, I like the idea and I am considering it, also because I have the spots in my sideboard atm.
Leyline of the Void may be good against Snapcaster and Lavamancer.decs...
..but against them you usually want to go DDD-route since they have a lot of countermagic. You have just to hope for the best and open with Leyline+Firestorm :)
I usually don't play Lotv in my sideboard, but in last tournament I did, since Reanimator is such a bad matchup. Well, did not see any reanimators but won a mirror and sided them vs Canadian Thresh.
I opened with Leyline, he countered my discard outlet and beat me up with two Delvers. Fun times.
That was first round of top 8.
I also think that DDD with always 1 mana open and purify the grave in reaction to snapcaster is better than Leyline.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziilot
I don't get it. Hasn't Leyline of the Void been a staple for Dredge sideboards purely for the protection of the bridges? The fact that you get extra use out of it because of Snapcaster seems good, but this is no new thing?
It is not a new thing. Still the same old thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeggi
Sorry to nitpick, but they banned Misstep.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izor
That's why he said: -In general, it's biggest selling point is now gone, so I wouldn't run it any more.Quote:
Originally Posted by RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
And Leyline of the Void is really fine. Purify the Grave is nice in theory, but they'll wait for you to tap out, or wasteland gold land before they surgical extract something if they already know what's coming.
Yep, that's what I meant with that statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandalize
I fully agree here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandalize
The Purify/Purge tech is relatively new right now, and only few people have ever tested it. Still, IF that tech became staple at some point, your opponent would probably know about it and play a bit more carefully. In short, it just doesn't seem like a real solutionj to our problem. It's not like we could fight Surgical with Purify as well as we can fught Relics with Grudges.
This is the list I've had for the last month. I need some input on sideboarding...
To me this seems like the most crucial part of the deck. There are not many free slots and oversideboarding (removing crucial cards) will get me.
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 putrid imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 stinkweed imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 tireless tribe
2 tarnished citadel
Sideboard
3 Ancient Grudge
4 Nature’s Claim
4 leyline of the void
1 iona, shield of emeria
3 unmask
default g2
-4 breakthrough +3 grudge +1 iona
vs fast decks (storm combo).
-4 ichorid +3 unmask +1 iona
vs leyline of the void from a slow deck
-4 breakthrough +4 nature's claim
vs leyline of the void from a fast deck
-4 ichorid +4 nature's claim
mirror
-4 ichorid +4 leyline of the void
vs reanimate
-4 ichorid -4 breakthrough +4 leyline +3 unmask +1 iona
And for game3 I could see myself board the unmasks for -1 /1/1
At first I wanted more DR targets but I figured the difference between troll, iona and whatever is not worth the extra slot. Maybe I change my mind for angel of despair, elesh norn or whatever. What are your thoughts on unmask?
I would never go below 2 Ichorids... They're pretty fine against sweepers, and if they use Surgical Extraction on your bridges, and you have no Ichorids, you just lose. I see myself removing Breakthrough in every blue matchup (except High Tide), and removing 1~2 Ichorids in every aggro matchup. The other cards to be sideboarded out are usually the 4th Cabal Therapy, both Dread Returns (in a slow matchup).Quote:
Originally Posted by Mackan
As for reanimator, never board in Iona, Shield of Emeria or any DR-Target. They can use Reanimate to grab the dude in YOUR graveyard and just proceed to win. Leyline of the Void is enough, usually, and Unmask might dilute your deck. I mean, you need some gas after you T0 LotV, or they'll just bounce it someday and you'll lose anyways.
I'd board like this: +4 Leyline of the Void, -2 Ichorid, -1 Careful Study, -1 Breakthrough. But that's just me.
Unmask is just an awful card in this deck. Get rid of those. You're already packing 4 Nature's Claim, I'd cut out the Ancient Grudge and replace those with Firestorm or something. Also you don't run Darkblasts main, maybe put one in the side so you can deal with gaddock teeg or any other utility bears. Whatever anyone says, yes people still run maindeck hate bears like yixlid jailers or jotunn grunts, ravenous trap etc. Look at the last few posts; we're talking about the merits of whether or not to run 4 leylines and that is old, old, OLD tech. I'm talking about first iterations of this deck old. You can't expect every person you play against in a tournament to have a completely metagame compliant deck. The G/W/X maverick decks are, in my opinion one of the toughest matchups for me because of their ability to diversify their hate into so many categories. Personally I'm not sold on leyline yet. I'm still testing 3 purify the grave in my sideboard and I'll hopefully come to a conclusion about it soon but I'm leaning toward it because I feel it's a little more flexible than leyline but eh we'll see.
I'm testing 3x Purify the Grave, too, and I'm quite happy with the outcome. Maybe it's only a matter of luck, but it saved me multiple times against Reanimator, which priorly was an almost unwinnable matchup (problem, Elesh Norn?) for my build. It is also useful against EE/Crypt recursion via Academy Ruins, Loam recursion and Snapcaster Mage. I've been doing several tests during the last two weeks and I'm being objective. The card has shared problems with Ancient Grudge: if you keep a one-lander and they pack Wasteland, be sure to cross your fingers as the match starts. Generally speaking, the card is fair. These are my conclusions.Quote:
Originally Posted by wutangkillabeezonaswarm
Hi everyone, I'm relatively new to Dredge and I haven't been able to test effectively because I am unsure of how some interactions work. All of the questions deal with BFB. So here are a few scenarios, thank you in advance for the help!
1: I have a BFB in my graveyard and attack with an Ichorid. My opponent blocks with a Lord of Atlantis and both creatures die. In what order do the triggers resolve? Will I get a zombie?
2: I sacrifice 3 non-token creatures to flashback Dread Return, with several Bridges in my yard. Opponent sacrifices a Cursecatcher to counter the DR. When the Bridges are exiled, does that mean the Bridge triggers do not produce zombies?
:smile:
First question:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fortunae
BfB has two separate triggered abilities. In the scenario you discribed, both of those abilities trigger. I guess it'sclear so far.
Now, if you are attacking, you are the active player and control BfB's triggered abilities. That means that you may choose in which order those two triggered abilities of BfB are put on the stack. You just put the 'exile BfB' on the stack first and the 'I get a Zombie' above it. You should always say this explicitly, just to make evrything sure for you and your opponent. That said, you get the Token, then your BfB is exiled.
Second question:
Usually, when a triggered ability is put on the stack, it will resolve unless it's countered. No matter what happened to the source of the ability when the ability tries to resolve. (Example: Your opponent activated a Lavamancer and you Bolt it in response. The ability of the Mancer will still resolve, even though its source has changed game zones).
Now, with BfB this is a bit different. It has that 'IF' clause in it. This IF-clause checks whether the BfB is still in a certain zone when the ability tries to resolve, and if it's not, the ability can't resolve any more.
Cursecatcher is sacrificed as a cost when the Dread Return (and the BfB trigger above it) are still on the stack. So the triggered ability that says 'Exile BfB' has to be put on the stack above those two. This means that by the time the 'get Zombies' ability resolves, BfB is not in the graveyard any more (thus, not matching the IF-condition). That's why you won't get any tokens in that scenario.
By the way, this is the reason Cursecatcher is such a beast against us. If they have one, you should usually try to grind them out with Ichorids and Bridges (without casting any spells they could possibly counter).
Lol, it keeps surprising me how insane it can be to explain the rules of a mere card game xD
Thanks a bunch, that cleared things up very nicely!
That's one of the reasons I love this game so much- the level of complexity is staggering for being "just" a card game.
Now that I better understand how BfB works, I'm more inclined to playtest it against other people. Look out local meta! :cool:
Thanks. These were some points I was a bit hazy on. I have a question also. Say I cast Cabal Therapy and, in response my opponent activates an Aether Vial with two tokens, putting two lords of atlantis(the card I had named with therapy)into play. I was told by my opponent when I did this it was legal then to change the target of CT to something else as a response to him tapping and activating the vial.
If this is true I probably have to rethink some interactions between certain cards.
When you announce Cabal Therapy targeting your opponent, before it resolves, he has his responses (I.e. deciding to activate his Aether Vial). If he lets it resolve (You only get to name a card if therapy resolves) and you name Lord of Atlantis, he can no longer activate Aether Vial to cheat them into play.Quote:
Originally Posted by wutangkillabeezonaswarm
Thank you.
What Que said.
The confusion with cards like Cabal Therapy (also Pithing Needle for instance) is that people are accustomed to the rule that targets are declared as the spell is cast, not when it resolves. This is the same for Therapy, only that the target you have to announce upon casting it is the player, and the card you name is not a target ability (which is why you only name it wehn CT already resolves).
I can't count the times where my opponents let me name my card with CT or Pithing Needle and when they noticed that the named card was in their hand, they wanted to counter my spell and even called judges when I told them they couldn't.
The problem is then, if your tournament judge doesn't know the rules either xD. I remember losing a game when my opponent tried to Swords to Plowshares my Iona on white 'in response to her trigger', but when she was already on the battlefield. My opponent referred to Phyrexian dreadnought, whose trigger can also be responded by Stifling it. The judge believed him... And when I told him he should just look it up online (the exact example is explained on magiccards info and the gatherer), he took it as an offense and didn't. Sad times.
I also once had to look it up on my Mobile bc the judge did not believe me:D
@wutang: Big props for paying respect to a legend in your profile pic.
So, what do you guys think?
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...2&iddeck=42714
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...9&iddeck=53266
Second big event this guy Top4 with the same LED list featuring a lot of abnormal choices...
Don't like that list at all.
It's just way too inconsistent.
- too few lands
- LED (with Lootings not out yet)
- only 10 dredgers
- 3 DR targets
- only 2 Ichorids
This list is clearly geared towards winning as fast as possible, but it has severe weaknesses if it can't get the combo together fast enough / can't resolve it properly.
But of course even very inconsistent lists will make top 8 from time to time.
Also, the second top4 finish was in the Invitaional, where they actually played Standard as well. His record in Standard was 6-1 and Legacy only 5-2, so his Legacy finish alone wouldn't even got him to top 8.
When the dredge decks that run a bunch of DR targets comes together it's great. Shame it doesn't happen anywhere near as often as you want it to.
easy e yo. aids. its hard out here mayne.
Hi, just a quick question. Instead of using Careful study, has anybody tried using winds of change? like 3mainboard?
Creatures: 26
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
4Golgari Thug
1Oona
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
Spells: 23
4 Break through
4Cabal Therapy
3Careful Study/WOC
2Deep Analysis
2Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
Lands: 12
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
Sideboard:
3natures claim
3ancient grudge
2chain of vap
1ancestors chosen/ chain of vapor/ ??
4LOTV
1Terestadon
1Elesh
Some guys tested it when Storm Combo reigned. Careful Study is clearly better because it offers a discard outlet. WoC is just a worse Breakthrough, imho.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombieloan
I think you'll probably want to only run 2 main if at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Izor
Thank you Izor this was very helpful
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=42658
So LED Dredge made the top 5 in the Charlotte Open.
Real talk the only reason I'm not running LED Dredge is because I just don't have the damn things and they run about as much as a confidant.
Is this metagame so fast now we can only rely on LED-type lists to break into a top 8 position?
Will Faithless Looting make Dredge THE deck to beat?
Quick answer: No it isn't. The metagame is insanely slow, imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by wutangkillabeezonaswarm
Faithless Looting will make LED dredge a huge lot better, but even the LEDless lists should run 4-off lootings I think.
Also this list makes me want to cry. Why cut the best card of the deck down to 3 copies MD?Blue/black dredge is not a thing I am sold of ,too.
And the one of Scalding Tarn looks funny.
Dunno, to me that list is a total mess.