Perhaps. But in a deck without a single Green amna source, I think it might be an essential item.Quote:
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut
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Perhaps. But in a deck without a single Green amna source, I think it might be an essential item.Quote:
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut
I wouldn't rely too much On Leyline of Sanctity in order to fight combo. You may feel safe with it in play (assuming that you had it in the opening hand, which is not going to happen every time) but it wont assure you an easy win. Of course, if you have the nuts with an opening hand of leyline + fow + blue-pitch card then you should be really fine, in any other case if they drop Xantid Swarm you're probably going to lose anyway, Swarm attack into Chain of Vapor into combo is something you should be aware of. I wouldn't honestly bring Leylines with me in a tournament.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Postman
That is great :cool:
Noted. I was primarily thinking burn, I've yet to see a xantid swarm on cockatrice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Davek
Essentially, it isn't needed. You don't have to go insanely fast. If we just wanted to go as fast as possible, why not play Omni-Show or a Sneak Attack deck? Also, Show and Tell is still a thing we can do to jump ahead, though I will admit not having Primeval Titan is sad times. That isn't to say that green isn't powerful and that speed isn't important, I just wanted to test something new and I really liked the feel of my list. In the same vein as playing a slower deck without Crop Rotation, I am actually finding that I really don't like Treasure Cruise as much in my list. Here is the updated list:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mockingbird
// Creatures
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
3 Sun Titan
2 Trinket Mage
// Noncreature Spells
4 Brainstorm
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Force of Will
3 Repeal
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Show and Tell
4 Terminus
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Trickbind
// Lands
4 Cloudpost
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Flooded Strand
4 Glimmerpost
2 Island
1 Karakas
1 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Vesuva
// Sideboard
SB: 4 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 2 Hydroblast
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Show and Tell
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Glacial Chasm
Celestial Clonnade ended up being too cute. I also really want to find room for some Expedition Maps.
EDIT: I am sad that I now can't make the joke of being a puntsman with Treasure Cruise. :(
Rock Lee is playing @Worecester, 4-0 so far. Good luck! Perhaps he is on screen later?
He's not the featured for Round six, but he was mentioned in passing on the leader board. As the start of Round 6, he's currently 9th place with 4-1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Postman
Top 4'd my GP Trial. Deck felt great all day. Long, thorough writeup to come later if you guys want. Top 4 was me, 12-Post MUD (which won), BUG Delver and Miracles.
//ARTIFACTS
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Expedition Map
//CREATURES
4 Primeval Titan
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
//SORCERIES
2 Show and Tell
4 Treasure Cruise
//INSTANTS
3 Crop Rotation
4 Repeal
3 Trickbind
4 Brainstorm
2 Wipe Away
//LANDS
4 Tropical Island
1 Glacial Chasm
3 Island
1 Polluted Delta
4 Glimmerpost
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Karakas
4 Cloudpost
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Vesuva
1 Eye of Ugin
//SIDEBOARD
1 Spellskite
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Force of Will
4 Flusterstorm
Today's top 16:
Delver, delver, delver, delver, delver, delver, elves, elves, elves, elves, reanimator, reanimator, reanimator, other, other, other.
How sad.
Nice finish. One thing I'd appreciate is that MUD-Post is my other Legacy post deck, so if you get ahold of the winning decklist, would you see if it could make its way to MUD thread?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotmaster
One thing I've been considering, and want everyone's thoughts, is whether or not the third Eldrazi, i.e. Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre (Or Kozilek if Ulamog is maind) is Sideboard worthy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotmaster
I dunno. I will say for the first time in the year or so I've been playing this deck, I wished Kozilek was an Ulamog, when I faced (apparently) King Mise of Topdeckistan. I don't think it's sideboard material necessarily, but perhaps there's an argument for going back to all three main. I think Tony Murata does that, and maybe Clinton does too? I don't remember.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mockingbird
Anyway, it will have to wait until tomorrow at the earliest, but does anyone want a writeup? I basically did another play-by-play like I did for SCG Cincy. I will say, regardless, that I think there is a home for Trickbind and the deck in general felt good all day.
EDIT: I will try to get the list, but the winner was an out-of-towner, so the only way I have to contact him is Facebook, assuming he remembers me.
Please do the writeup. Also, is anyone interested in setting up some cockatrice testing? For testing against the worst offender tournament decks?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotmaster
I played Kozilek before but I never liked it. It is inferior in pretty much every possible way to Ulamog. Drawing 4 cards is not good when you just need to vindicate a Delver or a JTMS/Liliana that's about to "kill" you.
Personally, I've always liked Kozilek more than even Emrakul. I cannot recall a time when I cast a Kozilek because I needed him to save me from defeat, and he did not pull through. For me, if Kozilek cannot be the answer, he finds it.Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce
He posted his list in the MUD thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotmaster
What answer are you looking for that Ulamog cannot be? Ulamog IS the answer. He kills Delver/Clique/Karakas/JTMS/Liliana and/or other problem permanents like Humility/Ensnaring Bridge or Blood moon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mockingbird
I cannot imagine drawing 4 cards that do nothing be good in most of those situations. Also, I assume you meant Ulamog not Emrakul. Emrakul solves most problems.
I think Kozilek versus Ulamog really comes down to the core design of the deck. I think the decision between the two really comes down to what your end goal is and what other tools you're running - proactive play and Force of Will in the deck really lean towards Kozilek, as he lets you steam ahead by overloading their answers with over-the-top plays. If you are going a more controlling route, then I find Sensei's Divining Top or Treasure Cruise take care of the card advantage and filtering, giving room to fill the deck with reactive cards. Ulamog fits this strategy much better.
As the head judge of the GPT that Zotmaster top 4'ed, it was kind of sad to watch from the outside. His matches at the end really didn't have a lot of play to them - he kept a reasonable hand and just drew into lands on an empty board while his opponent jammed threat after threat. If at any point he drew an Emrakul or Primeval Titan, he probably would've won.
I agree with Zotmaster and Mockingjay on Kozilek over Ulamog. I think there are generally other ways to deal with those situations without having to use Ulamog.Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce
Delver: Repeal and Kozilek I feel are much better in this case than Ulamog. Against decks with Delver I usually hate having Ulamog but was usually fine with Kozilek.
Clique: If a player is running Clique then the game is already going pretty long and it probably took them a while to find it. Not enough of a concern IMO. I've also used Karakas to swat them a few times to help me dig for stuff while staying alive.
Karakas: I don't ever see a situation where you would destroy enemy Karakas. It's only upside for you. If they karakas kozilek you get 4 more cards if they karakas emrakul you just win.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor: Again the game would have to go really long for that to happen. Repeal on jace is also going to set them back hard but that's probably going to be countered. However I think Kozilek's Draw ability is much superior in this scenario.
Liliana: Kozilek is generally going to do a good job here. They usually won't counter repeal liliana unless it's at 6 or something and the draw of kozilek will help with the +1 immensely while stalling the ultimate for a few turns drawing you into more gas.
Humility, Ensnaring Bridge: If someone is running this mainboard I would be very surprised. I sideboard Krosan grip for these random cases though and Repeal also works.
Blood Moon: Also have Krosan Grip in sideboard plus force of will. Also make sure to fetch basic lands. I like having basic forest in my deck so I can copy it with vesuva and play prime time for 6 mana. Moon decks will also generally fear a 6/6 trampler.
Another thing to note is the interaction kozilek has with candels (3 cloudpost plus eye searches for it) and that I would be okay with casting kozilek whenever compared to Ulamog where it ends up being a dead card in 80% of the games I played with it.
What we can agree on though is that emrakul DOES solve most problems and if a player has the ability to do so they should almost always choose Emrakul over Kozilek.
On a side note, I have tried Treasure Cruise and am really happy with it. It also allowed me to run enough blue cards to run Force of Will.
I tried my mono-green list again and it is very boring. Thinking I might need to splash blue for [C]Repeal[/C] and [C]Brainstorm[/C]. I haven't thought about [C]Treasure Cruise[/C] in this list yet, so I am thinking of adding it to try it out. I must as though, in the UG version of deck, what is the best time to lay down your Posts? I find I either need to draw cards or keep mana open for [c]Repeal[/c] so I would throw them down like turn 3-4. Yet in my Mono green list, you throw them down immediately and proceed to win turn 6.
All right. As before, here's my complete writeup - pretty much an entire play-by-play - of the event. If that's not your thing, skip this post.
If anyone can come up with a genius way to quickly write down opening hands and cards I see with things like Brainstorm without my opponent being able to find out, I'm all ears. Otherwise, pretty much everything should be more or less accurate. Also, twice my rigorous play-by-play proved helpful when I was able to verify whether land drops were made :) The deck felt pretty good all day, with the exception of my final match where it turned into DrawLands.dec. The only match where I played really poorly also happened to be that last match, although perhaps a few mistakes were made here and there as well.
Anyway...
--------------------
Round 1 - Vs BUG Delver
(Quick aside: I refuse to call them by the "wedge" names like StarCity and Wizards have been tripping over themselves to do. The next StarCity event I go to, my deck will be registered as "Witch-Maw 12-Post", since my deck can naturally produce four colors: that of Witch-Maw Nephilim. Yes, I can be that petty.)
This list is a more old-school list with Dark Confidant and Stifle.
I win the roll.
I play Cloudpost.
He plays Underground Sea.
I play Polluted Delta.
He plays a Misty Rainforest, then casts Brainstorm. He then cracks his fetch. I crack mine in response and hit his with Trickbind. He passes back.
I play another Cloudpost.
He plays a Scalding Tarn and a Delver of Secrets. I Brainstorm EoT.
I play a Misty Rainforest.
Delver flips off a Daze, then he cracks his fetch. He swings. I crack my fetch and Repeal the Delver. He recasts it.
I play a Glimmerpost, gain some life, and cast Primeval Titan. It resolves, but the EtB trigger eats a Stifle.
Delver doesn't flip this time, and he casts a Tarmogoyf.
I swing with Prime Time and get a Cloudpost and Eye of Ugin. I then cast Treasure Cruise, exiling 3 cards.
Delver flips off Stifle, he casts a second Delver, and he swings through for 6.
I swing back, getting Glimmerpost and Karakas. I cast Brainstorm. Knowing he has Stifle, I force it out with an Eye of Ugin activation. I play a Misty Rainforest and get another Tropical Island.
Delver flips off yet another Stifle. I Repeal one on the end of his turn.
I play a Cloudpost and swing again, getting 2 Glimmerpost. He double blocks, Stifles my Eye of Ugin, and scoops up his cards.
-----
He plays Underground Sea.
I play a Polluted Delta. He Brainstorms EoT.
He plays and cracks a Misty Rainforest, then casts Tarmogoyf.
I play another fetch and get a Tropical Island.
He plays Underground Sea and swings. I Brainstorm EoT.
Vendilion Clique comes on my draw step, bottoming Primeval Titan. I play a Cloudpost.
He casts a Deathrite Shaman and swings.
I play a Cloudpost.
He casts Ponder (doesn't shuffle), swings, and plays a Delver.
I cast Primeval Titan. It resolves, and he Stifles the trigger. I cast Force, pitching Brainstorm. He Spell Pierces the Force of Will.
Delver flips off a Ponder, and that is that.
-----
I play a Tropical Island.
He plays a Tropical Island and casts a Delver. I Brainstorm EoT.
I play a Misty Rainforest.
Delver doesn't flip. He swings for 1 and plays another Tropical Island. He then casts Deathrite Shaman. I Brainstorm, then crack my fetch, which eats a Stifle.
I play a Polluted Delta and fetch a Tropical Island.
Delver flips off Brainstorm. Another Trop comes down, he swings, and casts another Delver.
I play a Glimmerpost and cast Show and Tell. He eats a land with his Deathrite and casts Vendilion Clique. I Force it, pitching Repeal. Kozilek is brought to class, and he brings a Tarmogoyf.
Delver flips off...Maelstrom Pulse. He eats another land with Deathrite, Pulses Kozilek, and swings through for 9.
I play an Island, cast a Primeval Titan, and get Glacial Chasm and Glimmerpost.
He casts True-Name Nemesis.
I pay 2 life.
He casts another True-Name Nemesis.
He has another Stifle. I lose the Chasm and then the game.
It's the first time "Ulamog is indestructible" has mattered in a game for me in about a year. It probably puts the score at "Kozilek 105, Ulamog 3", but nonetheless, Ulamog does win me this game. Apparently I played King Mise of Topdeckistan.
--------------------
Round 2 - Vs Loam/Pox/Depths
I win the roll.
I play Island.
He plays an Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. He then casts Thoughtseize. I Brainstorm in response, put 2 Repeal on top of my library, and show him a hand of all lands.
I play a Cloudpost.
He plays Thespian's Stage.
I play Glimmerpost.
He plays Mox Diamond, discarding Bojuka Bog. He plays Dark Depths, cycles Barren Moor, then copies the Depths with the Stage, making a Marit Lage. I bounce the token with Repeal EoT.
I play Misty Rainforest and Expedition Map.
He plays Verdant Catacombs and cracks it for a Bayou. He casts Life from the Loam, getting back Dark Depths, Thespian's Stage, and Barren Moor. He cycles the Moor to dredge the Loam, binning Thoughtseize, Liliana of the Veil, and another Life from the Loam. I crack my Map for a Cloudpost EoT.
I play a Cloudpost.
He dredges Loam, binning Swamp, Abrupt Decay and Buried Ruin. He plays Thespian's Stage and casts Sylvan Library. He casts Loam, getting Barren Moor, Swamp, and Verdant Catacombs. I fetch for a Tropical Island.
I play a Tropical Island and cast Primeval Titan, getting Cloudpost and Eye of Ugin.
He uses Sylvan Library's ability and dredges Loam, binning Cabal Pit, Smallpox and Darkblast. He plays Dark Depths, makes Marit Lage again, then casts Loam, getting Dark Depths, Thespian's Stage, and Buried Ruin. I Repeal the token again and he discards Life from the Loam and Nether Spirit.
I play Karakas and swing, getting two more Cloudpost. Emrakul comes down, I show him the combo, and that is that. I had another Trickbind in hand for the next time Thespian's Stage tried to copy Dark Depths.
-----
He leads with Urborg.
I play a Tropical Island.
He plays Dark Depths and casts Entomb, putting Life from the Loam in his graveyard.
I play Cloudpost.
He dredges Loam (Wasteland Swamp Bayou), plays a Karakas, and casts Liliana of the Veil. He +1's her. I discard Glimmerpost and he discards Darkblast.
I play Glimmerpost and cast Show and Tell. I bring Primeval Titan to class, and he brings...Smokestack. Well, I can't say I expected that. I get two Cloudpost and cast Candelabra of Tawnos.
He uses his triggers correctly and sacrifices zero permanents before adding a counter to Smokestack. Lilly goes -2 and I lose my Titan. He plays Cabal Pit and casts Smallpox. I apparently forgot to write down what land I sacrificed and what card I discarded. Let's assume I played correctly because that makes me feel better about myself. I probably binned Glimmerpost based on what I did on the following upkeep. I can't remember what I discarded.
I sacrifice a Cloudpost and cast another Primeval Titan, getting another Cloudpost and Bojuka Bog, exiling his graveyard.
He sacs his Dark Depths, adds a counter to Smokestack, and -2's Lilly, killing my Titan again.
I sacrifice Bojuka Bog and Cloudpost, and cast Treasure Cruise.
He sacrifices Urborg and Karakas and ticks Smokestack to 3. He passes and I Brainstorm EoT.
Realizing I'm about to lose 3 permanents, I decide that if I'm going to get Eldrazi love this game, it will be with Kozilek. I use Crop Rotation on my Island during my upkeep to get Eye of Ugin. I use Eye of Ugin to get Kozilek. I sacrifice Eye, a Trop, and my Candel. I play another Island and cast Expedition Map.
He sacrifices his Smokestack, plays a Wasteland, and Wastes my Cloudpost.
I play Misty Rainforest.
He plays Verdant Catacombs. I Brainstorm, fetch, and get Vesuva with Expedition Map.
Vesuva copies Cloudpost, and I cast Treasure Cruise.
He attempts to Wasteland my Cloudpost, but I counter it with Trickbind.
I play a Glimmerpost and cast Expedition Map.
He draws a card and says go. I crack Map for Vesuva.
Vesuva copies Cloudpost, I cast Kozilek, draw a bunch of cards, and discard a Scalding Tarn.
He draws a card and then scoops.
--------------------
Round 3 - Vs U/R Delver (Why isn't it Izzet Delver? Huh? STUPIDS.)
I win the roll. He mulligans once.
I play Cloudpost.
He plays Flooded Strand, fetchs Volcanic Island, plays Monastery Swiftspear, and swings.
I play Polluted Delta, then Expedition Map. The Map eats a Daze. I fetch a Trop to pay for it.
He casts Ponder, doesn't shuffle, and swings.
Vesuva copies Cloudpost, then I cast Show and Tell. I bring Primeval Titan to class, he brings Young Pyromancer. I get Cloudpost and Eye of Ugin.
He plays an Island, casts Ponder, doesn't shuffle, and casts a Delver.
I swing, getting 2 Glimmerpost. I tutor for and cast Kozilek, then play a third Glimmerpost.
Delver flips off a Lightning Bolt. He then Bolts his Swiftspear.
-----
I mulligan once, my first of the day(!)
He plays Flooded Strand, fetches Volcanic Island, casts a Ponder, and doesn't shuffle.
I play Tropical Island.
He plays Scalding Tarn, fetches an Island, and casts Young Pyromancer. I Brainstorm EoT.
I play an Island and cast Blue Elemental Blast on the Pyromancer.
He Brainstorms and plays a Polluted Delta. I Brainstorm EoT.
I play Cloudpost and Expedition Map. He fetches an Island and casts Smash to Smithereens on the Map.
He plays Volcanic Island and casts Blood Moon.
Vesuva copies Cloudpost Mountain, then I play another Map. I eat a Lightning Bolt EoT.
He casts Ponder, doesn't shuffle, casts Monastery Swiftspear, casts another Bolt, and swings.
I play Cloudpost and Candelabra of Tawnos.
He Brainstorms, casts Treasure Cruise, plays a Polluted Delta, Smashes the Candel, and swings.
I BEB the Blood Moon and play a Glimmerpost. I eat a Bolt in response.
Lesson learned. I just started seeing U/R Delver again. No more artifacts.
-----
He mulligans to five.
I play Cloudpost.
He plays Island.
I play Cloudpost.
He casts Brainstorm and plays Bloodstained Mire.
I play Tropical Island.
He plays a Mountain and casts Delver of Secrets.
I play Scalding Tarn.
Delver flips off Chain Lightning, he fetches a Volcanic instead of drawing the Chain, then casts Monastery Swiftspear. I Brainstorm in response, and fetch a Trop. He swings and I Repeal the Delver. He re-casts it.
I play Glimmerpost and cast Treasure Cruise, which eats a Pyroblast.
Delver flips off a second Pyroblast, and he swings.
I play an Island and run a second Treasure Cruise into the Pyroblast.
He Brainstorms. I respond by Repealing the Delver. He swings and re-plays the Delver.
I play Polluted Delta.
Delver flips off Lightning Bolt. He Bolts me. I respond by casting Crop Rotation on my Island. He Forces it, pitching a Delver. I hard-cast my own Force of Will. I get a Cloudpost. He plays a Flooded Strand and swings for 7.
I fetch a Tropical Island and cast Emrakul. I take my extra turn and swing. He sacs his whole board, I cast Kozilek, play a Glimmerpost, and he scoops.
Pretty sure I just blanked and forgot about the second Pyroblast. I'd love to say I was baiting the second Treasure Cruise, but I don't think I was. Then again, it worked out.
--------------------
Round 4 - Vs Burn
I win the roll.
I play Cloudpost.
He plays a Mountain, casts Goblin Guide (ever notice that Goblin Guide can be abbreviated as GG? Weird.) and swings. The trigger reveals a Repeal.
I play a Tropical Island.
He plays a Scalding Tarn and attempts to fetch. Realizing I don't have a whole lot of better options, I Trickbind the fetch. He swings, which reveals Show and Tell.
I play a Misty Rainforest.
He swings. I respond with a Brainstorm, putting a Vesuva on top and something that wasn't a land that I don't remember below that. Guide puts Vesuva in my hand. I then fetch a Tropical Island and Repeal the Guide. He casts Lava Spike.
Vesuva copies Cloudpost, then I cast Show and Tell. I bring Primeval Titan to class, while he brings Eidolon of the Great Revel. I get two Glimmerpost.
He plays Wooded Foothills and fetches a Mountain. He casts Price of Progress.
Now here is where I decided to take a chance. He was holding a few cards all game. I knew none of them were lands, as the Wooded Foothills would have had to have been his draw, bringing him up to 2 lands. Price was poised to hit me for 12, bringing me to 4. I put him on Fireblast because of the fact that he Priced me during his main phase. He could have cast his Goblin Guide, but he didn't. I thus let the Price resolve, bringing me to 4. He then immediately binned his Mountains to Fireblast me. I then responded with Crop Rotation, binning Glimmerpost, getting Glacial Chasm, and sacrificing a Trop to the Chasm. The Eidolon trigger put me at 2.
Knowing I couldn't pay the upkeep of Chasm, I figured I might as well Brainstorm before sacrificing the Chasm since at least Eidolon wouldn't kill me. I sacrificed the Chasm and swung with the Titan, getting 2 more Glimmerpost.
He draws a card and says go.
I swing again, and he scoops.
-----
He mulligans.
He plays a Mountain and suspends Rift Bolt.
I play an Island.
Rift Bolt goes upstairs, he plays a Mountain, and casts Eidolon of the Great Revel. I Brainstorm in response.
I play Glimmerpost.
He swings and suspends another Rift Bolt.
I play Glimmerpost and cast Show and Tell. I bring Primeval Titan to class, while he brings nothing. I get two Cloudpost.
Rift Bolt hits me for 3.
I draw Emrakul, play a Trop and swing, getting two Glimmerpost. I cast Emrakul. Price of Progress can only do 14, but I'm at way more than that. He scoops.
--------------------
ID to Top 4: BUG Delver, Miracles, 12-Post MUD, 12-Post
Top 4 - Vs BUG Delver
Not the same list as my first round. This is a more modern list with Treasure Cruise. Modified play/draw rule, so he goes first.
He plays Polluted Delta, fetches Underground Sea, and plays Deathrite Shaman.
I play Misty Rainforest.
He plays a Tropical Island, casts Ponder, doesn't shuffle, then casts Thoughtseize. I fetch a Trop in response, then Brainstorm. He Dazes it. Thoughtseize takes Crop Rotation, and he Squires me for 1.
I play Scalding Tarn.
He plays a Tropical Island, eats a fetch, and casts Liliana of the Veil. He +1's her. I discard Kozilek, he discards Abrupt Decay.
I play Cloudpost.
He casts Ponder, doesn't shuffle, Wastelands my Cloudpost, eats the Post with Deathrite Shaman, and casts Treasure Cruise. He +1's Lilly (Liliana of the Veil/Glimmerpost), casts another Deathrite, and fetches for a Tropical Island.
I play a Tropical Island.
He plays Verdant Catacombs and +1's Lilly (I Brainstorm in response, Treasure Cruise/Force of Will). He fetches a Bayou. He eats my Tarn, casts Treasure Cruise, eats Glimmerpost, then plays a Delver. I have absolutely nothing going on, and Brainstorm again.
I play Glimmerpost and Repeal Lilly.
Delver flips off Dimir Charm. It's in Japanese, but winglerw28 (who is head judge) and I recite the text of the card out loud because I'm very much not used to seeing it. I linked it because you might not see it much either, and because it becomes important like, a few sentences from now. He swings with the Delver and one Deathrite Shaman, and plays Wasteland.
I play a Glimmerpost and cast Treasure Cruise. See why I linked it? Yeah. Charm counters it. He then eats the Cruise with his other Deathrite.
He swings for 4 and casts True-Name Nemesis.
I draw and say go. He eats Dimir Charm.
He swings for 6 and eats Treasure Cruise. My hand at this point is Island-Island.
-----
I boarded out one of my Misty Rainforests to bring in an additional counterspell. I note this because of what happens later.
He mulligans once.
I play Tropical Island.
He plays Verdant Catacombs and fetches for an Underground Sea. He casts Thoughtseize. I Brainstorm in response, which eats a Force of Will pitching Delver of Secrets. Thoughtseize gets Glen Elendra Archmage.
I play Misty Rainforest.
He plays Wasteland.
I play Scalding Tarn.
He Brainstorms and plays another Wasteland.
I play Glimmerpost.
He casts Pithing Needle.
This was probably the key moment for this game. I play against my opponent during our weeklies from time to time. The fact that he brought in Needle at all made me suspect that Null Rod also came with it as he tends to board in artifact hate against me. I also know to anticipate Zur's Weirding, which is both one of my favorite cards ever and a card that has absolutely blown me out before. What I should have done, in hindsight, was crack just the Misty for an Island and then let the Needle resolve in the hopes that it would persuade him to name one of my artifacts (that I boarded out). Instead, I let the Needle resolve and he named Misty Rainforest.
He then cast Thoughtseize, which found Primeval Titan.
I play a Tropical Island.
He draws a card and says go.
I play Glimmerpost.
He plays Deathrite Shaman.
I play another Tropical Island.
He Wastes both Trops. I respond by Repealing the Deathrite. He eats one of his Wastelands in response. I draw a card that is not Trickbind. He re-plays the Deathrite, plays a Bayou, and casts Tarmogoyf.
I play a Cloudpost.
He swings for 4 and casts a Delver. I crack my Tarn for a Trop.
I play an Island. He eats my Repeal.
Delver doesn't flip, he swings for 5, and plays a Trop.
I draw a card and say go.
Delver flips off Spell Pierce. He swings for 7.
I play a Glimmerpost. He eats a Brainstorm with Deathrite. My last two draws for this game were...my other two copies of Misty Rainforest.
After the game as we went over our sideboards, sure enough, there was Null Rod.
--------------------
What did I learn?
I learned that when I don't have to mulligan, the deck really has a chance.
I learned that keeping hands with a bunch of lands in them is perfectly fine.
I learned that it took me a year to find "Ulamog is indestructible" to be relevant...but it did happen and it cost me a game (and really, a match).
I learned that Trickbind is plenty good. Even if it's only hitting a fetch, it has at least a play in every matchup. It can always be boarded out later (and it was against U/R Delver and Burn). Not being countered is great.
I learned that I really enjoy having Bojuka Bog in the sideboard. Drawing it usually (thought not always) sucks, and if you play enough games with it in the main, it will happen and you will be sad.
I learned that the number of Wastelands is somewhat on the decline. I couldn't be happier.
--------------------
Final thoughts:
I'll have to agree to disagree with sauce. I like Kozilek at least as much, if not more, than he likes Ulamog. He can't picture playing without the latter; I can't picture playing without the former. It may come down to playstyle, luck, or Keebler Elf Magic. Who knows?
I am wondering if it's time to bring the three together again. In my weekly last week, I lost to a single Clique that hit me 11 times, at least 7 of which were when I was on Eldrazi mana, and I just drew nothing. He even bounced it with Karakas every turn and it just never saw anything that mattered. Even if I think Ulamog is worse, he is another threat, he is another Eldrazi, and unanswered, he's still very strong. I don't think it's necessarily a knee-jerk reaction, but sometimes I feel like I just turn into DrawLands.dec and that's not always a good thing. Drawing enough lands to not miss land drops is great. Having enough lands to not miss land drops and still drawing more, less so. I might slide in Ulamog for testing since my weekly is tomorrow. I'll report my findings if I do.
Hope you enjoyed the writeup and found it helpful!
Repeal is not tutorable. You can tutor for Ulamog and cast him next turn to kill a Delver and stay alive or just have him in hand and cast him to kill one Delver but with Kozilek you cast him, draw 4 cards and then get ranched in the air and die potentially.Quote:
Originally Posted by 203995014
Sometimes you just need to kill a flyer, it's definitely less of a concern than Delver.Quote:
Originally Posted by 203995014
If you can cast the Ulamog it's probably already irrelevant, but I have needled Karakas vs Miracles before because getting locked out with Venser & Karakas is a real thing. You should be afraid of that almost more than the early Entreat. If you're not, then you are either playing vs bad miracles pilots or bad miracles decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by 203995014
Games vs Miracles can and do go long and when JTMS games go long they usually have CB + Top + Fow and you may have nothing, it's another out. Drawing 4 cards you may never get to resolve seems highly irrelevant vs a JTMS ticking up to ultimate.Quote:
Originally Posted by 203995014
Again, if you got Liliana at 6 or 7 and it's going to cack off half your lands, drawing 4 is OK but not great, they can ultimate you and play a 2nd Liliana and then make you sac your Kozilek. You can typically beat ultimate from Pox but not from BUG delver. I would say it's probably a push here between Kozilek and Ulamog.Quote:
Originally Posted by 203995014
Not mainboard, I also stopped playing K-grip. It comes up though. Repeal works better here for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by 203995014
FoW is generally bad vs Blood moon & REB decks, but sometimes you gotta do it because t1 Bloodmoon is very hard to beat. I know how you can play through a blood moon w/ Forest/Vesuva/Map, but having the Ulamog to cack off their Bridge afterwards is gravy. Sometimes they get 2x or 3x moon effects also, so being able to cack Bridge becomes even more relevant otherwise you can never repeal through their red blasts and you just lose to Jaya.Quote:
Originally Posted by 203995014
3 Cloudposts + Eye + Candle casts Emrakul... not sure what Kozilek does better than Emrakul. Nothing is the answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by 203995014
[/QUOTE]Quote:
Originally Posted by 203995014
No, I meant Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, not Ulamog. That doesn't mean that I gun for Kozilek over Emrakul because I'm not that stupid, but in terms of preference, Kozilek has always been my favorite out of any of the three legends.Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce
[QUOTE=Zotmaster;840801]
I learned that the number of Wastelands is somewhat on the decline. I couldn't be happier.
I wouldn't count on it. Delver, making up almost half of all legacy decks most often will run wastelands. Black, D&T, even the goblins I'm finding on cockatrice are now running it.
3 Candle
3 Map
1 Emrakul
1 Koz
1 Ula
4 Titan
4 Brain
3 Vapor
4 Crop
4 Repeal
4 FOW
3 Stifle
1 Cavern
4 cloud
4 Glimmer
2 vesuva
1 Eye
1 glacial
2 island
1 karakas
1 tabernacle
4 tropical
4 fetch
Why so many bounce spells? 4x repeal 3x chain of vapors? Are you just using bounce to gain back tempo?
Essentially. Plus pitch.Quote:
Originally Posted by apple713
I absolutely agree with Sauce, Ulamog is ALWAYS better than Kozilek. When you reach Eldrazi mana, you're close to end the game usually, and that's when you need a backbreaking card that will prevent your opponent to win before you're able to summon Emrakul. Ulamog does the job pretty well, while Kozilek will fill your hand with a bunch of marginal spells you probably wont be able to cast in the same turn,. Also, an opposing Karakas makes Kozilek really laughable, but not many people have dared to bounce Ulamog so lightly. Ulamog simply ignores the wall of counterspells your opponent may have, almost always taking with him the most problematic threat, so it's more of immediate impact over the course of the game.
Open to suggestions though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponders
Been playing this locally and it is not suited for my local meta. My problems with this deck are Burn, BUG Delver and 2-3 Mindcensor Death and taxes.
Burn unless you get an early show and tell they usually win. Price is usually GG with so many non basics unless you can rotate for Chasm or counter it. Chasm doesn't help as much as you would think because it hurts your mana development and the cumulative upkeep. The burn player stockpile burn for when you let Chasm drop. If I can't beat burn considering switching decks like the other two 10 post players in my local shop have changed to Infect and Sneak and show. Leyline of Sanctity are not the answer because mulliganing for leyline is aweful and you can't cast them. I expect alot of Burn at GP NJ because it is so cheap to build.
BUG Delver is just a pain all around with decent clock, discard and wastelands. Not sure how to fix this one sometimes they just have the blow out hymm wasteland and there isn't much you can do.
Local Death and taxes players are all running 2-3 Mindcensor and 1-2 Spirit which nerfs your Prime Time, Maps and Treasure Cruises. They jam a Mindcensor in response to your Titan and if they got the swords or mirran crusader to deal with your Titan its GG. This might just be my local meta but it is a problem.
I brrn running the 3 Eldrazi 4 Show and Tell to try and beat Burn. Considering Wurmcoil Engine since Rock Lee had a list with 4 Show and Tell and Wurmcoil's but that is hard to fit with Treasure Cruise.
Artifact (8)
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Expedition Map
2 Pithing Needle
2 Sensei's Divining Top
Blue (15)
4 Brainstorm
3 Repeal
4 Show and Tell
4 Treasure Cruise
Colorless (3)
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, The Infinite Gyre
Green (8)
3 Crop Rotation
1 Moment's Peace
4 Primeval Titan
Lands (26)
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Cloudpost
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Glimmerpost
2 Island
1 Karakas
1 Khalni Garden
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
2 Vesuva
Sideboard (15)
3 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Moment's Peace
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Swan Song
Considering cutting Khalni Garden for a second Forest but its good versus Liliana or to just make a blocker.
@winglerw28
Not sure on blue white, Deck really wants Green for Crop Rotation and Prime Time to get a cloudpost and eye to win the game.
@Zotmaster
Congrats and thanks for the report. Interesting List. How you been liking no Sensei's Top? I find Sensei's Top to really help your draws. How is only 2 Show and Tell? I feel the only way you win versus burn is off a turn 3 or 4 Show and Tell and am considering going to 4. Is trickbind really that much better then Stifle? Being uncounterable is great and all but do you get wastelanded before you have 2 mana up for trickbind where you could have had 1 for stifle?
@Sauce @Davek
I agree you need Ulamog to kill problem permanents. Big one I keep running into in my local meta is Ulamog kills Ensnaring Bridge against Painter where Repeal just eats Red Blast.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirika
You've got so much draw power there I don't see why Lilliana is a problem. By the time you're casting titan you should be ready to throw it away on the next turn anyway. For burn, throw 4 leylines into the sideboard and mull till you get one. Its probably an insta-win. Slam it on the table and move on to a serious match.
I haven't missed Top anywhere near as much as I thought I would. Granted, I haven't played any Storm decks since I ditched the Tops, and that's usually where Top is at its best: hiding a key counterspell or Crop Rotation until it's needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirika
I'm not sure about only running 2 Show and Tell. I'm going over my writeup again and a lot of my success has come as an immediate consequence of resolving one. In a way, it's like Candelabra in that it gives the deck another gear that it otherwise doesn't have. No, Show and Tell isn't - and shouldn't be - the deck's Plan A, but a resolved one - or even a cleverly played one that baits out a counterspell - can very much win you the game more or less on the spot. I've been thinking about it and I may try bringing in at least one more.Quote:
How is only 2 Show and Tell? I feel the only way you win versus burn is off a turn 3 or 4 Show and Tell and am considering going to 4.
Trickbind is everything I hoped it would be and more. In this deck, it is way better than Stifle could ever be. It is basically my Pithing Needle replacement. I don't need to be proactive with it. I can wait for something to bother me or wait for my opponent to go for a perfect Brainstorm and then decide if I want to let him have it. We need our spells to have impact: they need to resolve. Short of Chalice on two (in which case, you're an idiot) or a blind Counterbalance flip of the same, Trickbind can't be countered. I don't think there is a single deck in Legacy where Trickbind doesn't have something it can hit game 1: at worst, it's suboptimal (at which point you sideboard it out Game 2...since that's what your sideboard is for!) and at best, it blows the opponent out. It turns the Storm strategy into something other than "Go to Game 2". If a Sneak and Show player doesn't hold priority and activate Sneak multiple times, it Time Walks them. It stops Elf shenanigans. I'm sure you can think of other uses.Quote:
Is trickbind really that much better then Stifle?
This strikes me more as a play mistake on your part. If you're on the draw, especially against an unknown opponent, Turn 1 Cloudpost is a terrible play, since they can Waste your tapped Cloudpost while still maintaining pressure with a Delver or whatever. If Turn 1 Cloudpost is the only play you had, it's a hand you should have sent back.Quote:
Being uncounterable is great and all but do you get wastelanded before you have 2 mana up for trickbind where you could have had 1 for stifle?
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Deck didn't perform well for me today, but I was definitely happy with the return of Ulamog. His cast trigger and his indestructibility didn't matter - I always had bounce or the board state was already favorable - but just by having him in the deck, the threat density of the deck literally increased by almost 20% as I went from six threats to seven.
I went 5-3 at Worcester, with my only 3 loses all coming from Reanimator, 4 of the 6 game loses were turn 1 griselbrand with force AND pithing needle on karakas. (The only 3 reanimator decks in the top 50, all of which top 16'd) I think the build I ran that day is perfectly fine with 4 surgicals in it.
Tested out a small white splash with tundra and stp, dabbled with elesh norn/meddling mage. I got 3rd place this week at my Tuesday event, but it felt difficult to make things happen. However, one realization did occur, and that is that Snapcaster mage is bonkers when you run loads of bounce spells, one of them being chain of vapor. The lines of play this guy offers is off the charts, especially with candelabra. Not to mention you can still Delve with a flashback Treasure Cruise.
New Build I'm testing:
// Lands
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [R] Tropical Island
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [LRW] Island (1)
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [TSP] Vesuva
// Creatures
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
2 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage
// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
3 [KTK] Treasure Cruise
4 [LRW] Ponder
3 [US] Show and Tell
3 [ON] Chain of Vapor
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [GP] Repeal
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
I've kind of come to the same conclusion with my UW list I posted earlier. It was a fun experiment, but it is missing... something. I think I'm going to be working on a UG list I could potentially be playing at NJ, so UW will be my pet project on the backburner until after that. One card that is interesting that was suggested to me for that list was Decree of Justice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
Snapcaster Mage is genius, and I really like the exclusion of Expedition Map. I've always felt very wishy-washy about the card and always find it to be underwhelming. The third Candelabra of Tawnos hurts my wallet, but I think it makes a lot of sense in this list.
One thing I don't like is the high amount of Surgical Extractions in the board. Are you sure this isn't an overcompensation for your losses? I feel as though the reanimator matchup shouldn't be so horrible that we need that much. I could see one or two, but maybe I just haven't played against the deck enough.
3 losses to Reanimator prevented me from Top 8'ing, and my loss that prevented me from getting 1st yesterday? Yeah that was Reanimator too.Quote:
Originally Posted by winglerw28
Snapcaster Mage is genius, and I really like the exclusion of Expedition Map. I've always felt very wishy-washy about the card and always find it to be underwhelming. The third Candelabra of Tawnos hurts my wallet, but I think it makes a lot of sense in this list.
My mind kept getting blown about how amazing snapcaster was. I did some positively staggering plays with chain of vapor, and equally incredible cantripping and fog'ing with repeal. Cast snap target repeal, block attacker, repeal snapcaster. Over and over.
Fair enough. On the topic of difficult matchups (well, for me, at least), how do you feel about the Omni-Show matchup?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
Its a nightmare. Tim trolls me hard by continuously bringing Omni to local events. I've tried many variants. Vensers main, forces main, a sideboard of forces, flusters, glen elendras with vensers main. They all aren't sufficient. Snapcasters and Surgicals are an odd tact I'm taking recently, for just ramping up storm count for flusters, and of course snapcaster on flusterstorm is often scoop phase for combo. Heavy bounce combined with snapcaster and flusterstorm is an odd combination, since bounce spells can become used counterspells.Quote:
Originally Posted by winglerw28
There is a circular synergy between defensive bounce spells being able to migrate into cantrips or wins (crop/show/cruise) late game. Snapcaster should have been investigated long ago. I recall someone mentioning it and me foolishly brushing it off.
The white build was an attempt to seal the deal on omni by running meddling mage, which would do that job well. Just warps the rest of the deck. Still not completely set on not running 2 tundra main and sideboarding meddling mage only, but that seems horrid. I think just rolling glen elendra and vensers is stronger if I wanted to warp against omni.
I think my biggest problem with the white build so far (not knowing your list for it, so this is based on mine) is that it just feels like clunky Miracles early in the game. As the game goes long your chances of winning are excellent and you begin to take a role similar to traditional post, but you just don't have the Primeval Titan + Glimmerpost monstrocity against aggressive decks. My attempt to beat Omni-Show with my UW list ended up with 3 Iona, Shield of Emeria in the board. I also tried a 2-2 split of Iona and Oblivion Ring.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
One card I've tried in the board for UG was Spine of Ish Sah but it just feels so bad outside of that matchup. I currently am trying Arcane Laboratory, which is slightly better but still not great. Both feel worse than Venser or Glen.
It's definitely a job for Glen Elendra Archmage. 2-3 in the board supporting fluster and co is actually pretty reliable. However, it is hot the best card for the rest of the meta now :/.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
Truth is with Post I'm pretty lost with the shaken up meta. Cavern has been great. But the oncoming flux of fast combo to fight cruise is tough to weather. My most comfortable build only had 2 cruises, EE's and Chain of Vapor - but it doesn't feel the same. Much more testing is needed.
Also for me it's either >5 bounce, or 2x grip, or sweepers that cover ulamog just fine. 10 vs 11 mana is actually very significant, so if I have any of the above criteria covered, I go for kozilek 100%.
@Ponders
Liliana is a big problem when they tick it up making you discard or worse ultimate it and you lose half your lands. I find that the plant from Khalni garden has saved Titan from Liliana or chump blocked to win the game many times. Sometimes you don't have enough lands in play or can't risk the wasteland and Titan surviving to attack is game winning. Second Forest would be mainly against Burn.
I don't like mulliganing for Leylines I can't cast. Its not an instant win because they do have creatures, price and vortex. If you mulliganed too low they might get there with creatures. Danger of price is always there when you run a ton of non basic lands.
@Zotmaster
Show and Tell is not the plan A most of the time but against Burn it is. I was on 3 Show and Tell for awhile and just went to 4.
You don't always have 2 untapped mana for Trickbind sometimes you get a hand like Tropical, Vesuva, CloudPost and can't have trickbind up without being exposed to wasteland where 1 mana stifle/needle/crop rotation is castable. I still like Needle for the ability to turn off all Wastelands or a planeswalker like Liliana or Jace. Needle is vulnerable to getting destroyed though.
@RockLee
Your build looks great with all the spells to maximize treasure cruise. Snapcaster sounds awesome. With that many cantrips not sure you miss Top that much but do you miss Pithing Needle? Turning off Wastelands or Liliana is darn good.
@winglerw28
Omnishow match up is pretty horrible but you don't see it all that often most people run Sneak and Show which you can needle sneak attack. Although watch out for Through the Breach.
@TimHarding
I am missing the main deck Engineered Explosives and Trinket Mage I used to have now that I am running Treasure Cruise but I still run Engineered Explosives in the board.
Not cutting Ulamog any time soon the ability to destroy permanents rather then bounce them gets you out of some otherwise unwinable situations where they have multiple Ensnaring Bridge where Ulamog use Karakas to bounce it and replay with both elements searchable is easier then finding 2 bounce and bouncing both in the same Turn.
i really want to like this deck but its just too slow, and using bounce spells to buy time seems incredibly inefficient. There are 3 options i see as buying time. You can try to speed the deck up, you can actually remove the threats, or you can slow the opponent down.
i see that some have tried to "slow opponent down" with something like trick bind, however with only 3 its hardly a strategy to rely on. You could increase the count so like 3 stifle, 3 trick bind, would defiantly slow opponents mana and things like SFM trigger amongst other things.
There have been some fog effects but nothing overly committing like only 1 moments peace main.
has anyone tried something like "clear the land". usually results in 2-3 lands into play castable t3. ya ideally you'd probably rather show and tell emrakul for 3 mana but thats not always possible.
At eldrazi mana, looping kozilek and emrakul can give you infinite recycles of whatever removal you're playing, you just need to work a little harder.