Tim, have you been testing with and/or against misstep? There's 14 1 drops in the main
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Tim, have you been testing with and/or against misstep? There's 14 1 drops in the main
Not at all. I'm not going to GP Providence so I decided to spend all my time testing the current deck and trying to optimize it for what I would actually be playing against.Quote:
Originally Posted by Star|Scream
Personally I don't think MM is going to be as huge as most people think. I'm usually a terrible judge of new cards power though so take it with a grain of salt. I think it's good and will see play but honestly Spell Snare is much more of a concern but even that isn't too big of a deal.
From my limited personal experience, it becomes the most annoying when you're playing Deadguy against Countertop or Merfolk. The ability to stop a first turn Mother or Vial or Duress/IoK/etc without needing a land drop or losing card advantage a la FoW is really a slap in the face as far as tempo is concerned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim the Enchanter
Played yesterday against Merfolks with MM, and it ranges from pretty annoying to gamebreaking mainly because of Misssteped Swords. Thats huge against Deadguy as you need to pick their Lords or get stomped
In the matches yesterday, Phyrexian Crusader made a pretty good figure. Maybe he IS the right Threat for the Deck, he is well protected, works really good with our Equips and and is good in attacking/stalling. Maybe the deck needs just a bit more adjustment then
-3 Nighthawk
+3 Crusader
to let him really kick ass. Need to think more about this^^
I like Mirran Crusader better than Phyrexian because he works with everything else at actually killing the opponent. Pro-green and black seems pretty good especially if StP is less played due to MM. If he connects once with a SoFI its 8-12 damage with the possibility of killing 2 dudes.
I think we may need to test GftT if MM proves to be whateveryone else says it will. I tried it in a non-Vial build and absolutely hated it. With Vial it might be a little better but testing is required.
I want you to know my question wasn't hype-based. I know the card will see play and in some way will affect the format. Just wondering if it's been tested against. Seems bad in this deck due to all the 1 drops already. We'll see.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim the Enchanter
What about dismember? It kills most of what stp does, with a few reanimator targets aside, and it can be paid for to avoid the lifeloss. Without thoughtseize it may be doable.
I want you to know my question wasn't hype-based. I know the card will see play and in some way will affect the format. Just wondering if it's been tested against. Seems bad in this deck due to all the 1 drops already. We'll see.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim the Enchanter
What about dismember? It kills most of what stp does, with a few reanimator targets aside, and it can be paid for to avoid the lifeloss. Without thoughtseize stealing life it may be doable.
We NEED Turn 1 removal in some matchups (thinking of Goblins for Example) and GftT is no replacement in that case without secure ways to play it on your first turn.Quote:
I think we may need to test GftT if MM proves to be whateveryone else says it will. I tried it in a non-Vial build and absolutely hated it. With Vial it might be a little better but testing is required.
Don't think that StP will be played less cause of MM, only thing is that it looses some points compared to other removal. Still its the best Spotremoval Legacy has. I mentionend the things you said about Mirran Crusader right after he got spoiled in this thread. The Problem he has are his cmc. The deck needs mostly black and he has Double-W. Difficult to get when your Opponent plays Wastelands (the chances he doesnt play them are rather small)Quote:
I like Mirran Crusader better than Phyrexian because he works with everything else at actually killing the opponent. Pro-green and black seems pretty good especially if StP is less played due to MM. If he connects once with a SoFI its 8-12 damage with the possibility of killing 2 dudes.
I'd say that Mirran Crusader fits pretty nicely in Hate Crimes (the Deadguy variant posted earlier with mostly white creatures). I'll try testing it as a 3-of. Connecting with it while it has a equip is practically the game. I agree that cutting StP for GftT isn't in Deadguy's best interest overall. Decks that run MM are still a minority to the rest of the format, and it hurts us everywhere else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
Mental Misstep is like terrorism - if you change the way you build decks just because it exists, the control players have already won.
As for crusaders, Mirran is a house with equipment, but easy to kill, while Phyrexian is practically indestructable and just as fast of a clock, but he's just not a team player when it comes to killing people. I really really want to be able to run him, but unless you're going to go with a bunch of sub-par infect creatures, it just doesn't seem worth it.
teamwork is fairly overrated when one can do the job ;)
I will try a little more with him, I hesitated really long, but he impressed me in the 4-5 games I played with him enough to give him a chance
There is something to be said for a guy for 3 mana that can get the job done by himself. That means a T1 Ritual into him can be a very fast game. If he goes into the Nighthawk spot (in my build above) then I could cut persecutors for an 8-card mystic package - then he does play well with others, because the equipment gets there. There is even potential to start cutting other bears (such as gatekeeper in my build) for cards like Mental Misstep and more discard spells.
I suppose it's worth testing, although it seems as though it could be a tad inconsistent.
It's been my experience that even a 7 card Mystic package is way too much. I think 5, maybe 6, is ideal. With any more you just end up with a handful of equipment you're waiting to play and equip while your opponent pulls away in board position.
Quick question - can you use SFM's activated ability to sneak in something like Piston Sledge and have it attach to a creature immediately?
Edit: Also, Tim are you thinking of finding a spot for Puresteel Paladin in your list?
Of course. If you somehow have a spot in your list for Piston Sledge its ability will trigger once it enters the battlefield, regardless of how it got there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Cheese
A card that I'm really considering is Batterskull. Using SFM to cheat in a 4/4 Lifelink to block is really good, and the rare case of attaching it to a creature is nuts. Dark Confidant frowns a little, but if people can justify running Tombstalkers then this one-of should be just fine. I wouldn't know what to trade it for, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by JustPAT4
I'm with you here. I guess I'm just trying to force the 3 drop infect double striker...when in reality there isn't a reason to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim the Enchanter
Puresteel Paladin looks great on paper but he's not disruptive, there are plenty of times that I may not have 2 other artifacts and there just isn't room for him. I'd be slightly more tempted if he at least had first strike, but right now the only room for a non-disruptive creature is taken up by Avenger, who is about 100% better than Puresteel Paladin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Cheese
Um... you know the one Crusader has infect and the other has double strike right? Neither have both. For my build the white one would work much better, but I'm already getting ww for Serra Avenger.Quote:
Originally Posted by bokwinkle
Played a few games with Tim's list and I have to say that I felt naked without discard. One has very few ways to disrupt the opponent and to not have any information on what your opponent is holding kind of feels like you're walking in the dark. it is also particularly dangerous against any Combo deck (that includes Show and Tell-type decks). I love the Mystical plan though. There has to be a way to fit in a set of Thoughtseize somewhere.
well you do have temporoary instant-speed discard/exile, and you have mom to protect them. This deck doesn't play like deadguy. It's something completely different. I like it.
how come no one goes the discard with hymn and verdict route anymore?
Because you have to many dead cards in mid/endgame where most opponents are topdecking anyway
It's definitely not an easy list to pilot and you have to be intimately familiar with most decks in the format. That being said, it's usually pretty easy to pick out a combo deck on their first turn if they don't go off. You just have to keep playing disruptive dudes and beating face as fast as possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Solar Ice
I've been trying to tell people it really is a different deck since I made it! I'm willing to start a different thread for it in developing if you guys feel like it's detracting from the general Deadguy discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Star|Scream
There's your hate crimes thread on mtgs and then this thread. I don't think another one is needed. I think it's fine talking about it here as it put up results!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim the Enchanter
no, this is the right place to talk about this deck - it's bob and hate bears, there isn't much more dead-guy than that. The original dead-guy lists were a bit different, but lately this looks exactly like dead-guy on paper. You're right though it definately plays differently and you definatly need to understand the format before playing the deck...whereas "traditional" deadguy builds are a bit more forgiving because of their volume of "peeks".
Damnit I wrote this lengthy reply then closed the @#$%^ tab before posting.
TLDR;
*If you're uncomfortable without discard, take some time to play with Zoo or Goblins online, and notice how little the contents of your opponents hand matters to you.
*Tim's list isn't that tricky, maximizing the effectiveness of Vial is probably the hardest part. It is wonderfully consistent though.
*I'm thinking of running only 2 equipment, or swapping the non SoFI sword for something cheaper/free like Lightning Greaves or Piston Sledge
*Wondering how well this build can function without Vial, if Misstep really starts to infest the format like some believe it will.
If Deadguy would be very relient on 1cc dropps mental misstep would be great against us but all our really important dropps are either 2cc or 3cc dropps. We are playing a quite fair deck, misstep and force is alot stronger against the unfair decks combo with loads of 1mana fast mana spells. Really doubt deadguy is a deck that is gonna care when mental misstep arrives to legacy.
We play a thoughtseize/duress/Inquision on our opponent are we really be that bothered that much he used 4 spots of his deck to take care of 1 mana dropps?
If we face mental misstep decks with 4 of them we should just board out a couple of vials if we run them to have them have 4 pretty dead cards in their deck. A spell that only hits our single target discard or STP isnt really effective against us. I for one im not fearing it, rather like it as it will probly make combo decks slower and make Counterbalance decks worse.
For our second sword i really like Feast and Famine, huge tempo boost and able to attack through green monsters is also really nice.
My thoughts on SoBaM:
Bottom line is Tarmogoyf is really really bad and Knight of the Reliquary isn't really any better, although post board we can have SoLaS if need be. This is easily the most debated slot in the list and many people say SoFaF is better.
We need something that allows us to block Goyf and other green fatties and it's nice to be able to push the damage through against them as well. With FaF you get one or the other unless you have another critter in your hand. FaF also leaves you prone to overextending into a sweeper, EE or Deed, since you want to use that extra mana. I would much rather push 4-5 damage through AND have a free blocker that I don't care about, which is almost never any of the creatures in this deck, for the thing that I don't want to hit me. If there is one Goyf/Knight on the table, it doesn't matter what I've milled into their yard because it still won't hit me, unless of course they remove the wolf first.
Some people say that you mill them closer to an answer. I disagree. The chance of me milling that answer is much greater, 10-1, than my opponent drawing that card. I'm willing to live with that.
There isn't a whole lot of discard in the deck to be synergistic with FaF. It doesn't let you look at their hand, it's not random, and it requires extra resources to use the second ability.
If you're against combo, SoFI and Jitte are better, then wolf adds some extra pressure and hopefully you'll put some wincons in their yard.
Edit: And it's Pro-Bant which seems to be pretty good right now.
I think I really want to add a singleton Top in but I'm not 100% sure what to cut. It's just sooo good with a Vial out. Speaking of Vial, it's not crucial to the deck. It's definitely handy and is awesome to pick the best creature for the situation at the end of your opponents turn, but I often side at least some if not all of them out. That's why I'm running 21 lands.
I'll always be fond of Vialing in Revokers in response to High Tide playing Candelabra.
Agree about the part with SoBaM. Like that sword as well. But thing with SoFaF is you equip it on an other creature when wanting to block after pushing 1 throught. The discard on the sword does put constant pressure on their hand.
Fan of singleton top in the deck.
I've always thought hand disruption was a staple of Deadguy. How does the lack of hand disruption fare against Storm, like TESS? Is Negator and Tidehollow enough G1?Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Cheese
Only discard i cant get used to not play is Thoughtseize. My current list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthem
4 Dark Confidant
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Serra Avenger
4 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Mother of Runes
SORCERIES (6)
4 Thoughtseize
2 Vindicate
INSTANTS (5)
1 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares
ARTIFACTS (7)
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
LANDS (20)
4 Scrubland
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Marsh Flats
2 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Wasteland
Sideboard
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Meekstone
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Perish
1 Runed Halo
1 Aura of Silence
With Vials i feel that Mother of Runes fits perfectly with the deck, without vials I wouldnt be playing with Mothers. Felt that 2 Vindicates is enought. Used to have Engineered Plague in the board but i feel its not really good enough in the meta atm to take up board space.
Honestly, Hymn and Thoughtseize aren't enough game 1. Good storm players will just play out all their mana sources as they draw them, and wait for a tutor to come along then go for Ad Nauseum or Doomsday or something and win. If you can lead with disruption then drop a fast clock like Stalker/Persecutor you have a decent chance, but even then some lists have access to multiple copies of Tendrils, and even if they can't get to lethal storm, they can still buy themselves enough time to try again. Personally I think it's worth running 1x Canonist in the main to help the combo matchup, and Revoker on LED also slows them down a bit. I think permanent-based hate is always going to work better since combo packs way more cantrips than bounce.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthem
On misstep, I think it makes the Merfolk matchup significantly worse by allowing them to protect their lords from StP and stop our Vials and E. Tutors (or thoughtseize if that's your thing).
I think you're right...Quote:
On misstep, I think it makes the Merfolk matchup significantly worse by allowing them to protect their lords from StP and stop our Vials and E. Tutors (or thoughtseize if that's your thing).
If Mental Misstep is going to be a problem for our removal I suggest playing either Snuff Out or Dismember. But if I were to choose from the 2 Dismember is much better. Can target black creatures as opposed to Snuff Out, alternating mana cost (can cost 1 and 4 life, 1B and 2 life or 1BB) which is quite an advantage and resilient to MM. Although it can't kill creatures above 5 probably goyf and KotR, but that can be worked around probably. As for Snuff out it can't kill significant black creatures such as Bob and the likes, also it's cost would always be 4 life or 2BB which is heavier as opposed to the easier mana cost of Dismember, 4 life in the mid to late game is quite heavy especially if we reveal it via Bob.
Anyway that's my 2 cents.
Wouldnt it be better to increase the numbers of vindicate then rather then adding more creature removal inform of Snuff out or Dismember?
IMO misstep would probly been boarded out against us, it doesnt stopp our more important spells the 2cc dropps.
I would go to 4 Vindicate before even considering Dismember. The fact that it won't kill most Knights or Goyfs, and isn't even close to killing Dreadnought, makes it not good enough. On top of that Vindicate gets rid of any other problems you might have.
Why the copy of Runed Halo in the SB, out of curiosity? I understand its general merit, but what specific matchup does it shine in?
It won't counter some of our important spells, but they have Spell Snare, Daze, Spell Pierce and FoW for those. A countered Vial on the 1st turn could set our tempo back. A countered Thoughtseize would on the 1st turn would put us on a disadvantage. A countered STP on a problematic creature would be very game breaking on our side.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rizso
I thought your list already have 4 Vindicate? Must look through that again. I was just thinking if 3 mana is a lot for creature removal then again it removes anything. Dismember still warrants for testing, I just like to have 1 colorless mana removal, it would give a sense of surprise for anyone with an untapped wasteland or swamp.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim the Enchanter
They arent gonna have all thoes counters spells in their deck and defenetly not in their hands everytime you can your 2cc spells. Many blue decks are really tight with spots and thoes spots are gonna come from somewhere, probly daze, spellsnare and spell pierce spots.Quote:
Originally Posted by paladin3056
Deadguy function fine without that turn1 vial resolving. As for missteping our t1 thoughtseize puts us on disadvantech? Its a 1 for 1 card and they lose life instead of us. We arent losing much here, we are missing out on their plans and they might resolve something next turn... big deal..
Geting our STP counters can be gamebreaking but spellpierce, fow and daze do that as well except Misstep wont do anything at all against when we are playing our Dark Confidants, Vindicating their permanents or Perish their Board.
For runed halo i like it as its a flexible card but mostly use it for progenitus or tendrils.
Progenitus, Tendrils, Belcher, Jace if you have to. Against Ghigh Tide you can name Blue Sun Zenith so they have to do the math and actually cast a bajillion spells instead of just making a bajillion mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthem
I run 3 Vindicate and 1 Oblivion Ring so I can E Tutor for it. Like I said the fact that it doesn't kill Knight or Goyf half the time is no bueno.Quote:
Originally Posted by paladin3056