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Decided to reduce the number of Go for the Throat and added a Murderous Cut. Sometimes it could be awkward not being able to destroy that Revoker.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrothgar
Thinking about add the Null Rod as you said and drop a Disfigure. I'm gonna attend a pretty big tournament on Sunday (124 preregistered atm), you will hear from me.
Imo, you shouldn't play a murderous cut at all, as Disfigure kills the Revoker, but also will kill any infect creature turn 1, which cut does not. If you drop anything for a null rod, it should be a GftT.
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I'm a huge fan of murderous cut. I have been running 1 main for almost a year. It really helps in the D&T match up because it is an instant speed 1 mana removal spell. It also shrinks goyfs, kills most threats, is difficult for Miracles to counter all while taking my opponents by surprise.
I can easily say it has won me over a dozen matches that wouldn't have been winnable without it.
Ended 2-3 into drop. MUs weren't that favorable:
Ant 2-0
Junk 1-2 (lost on the 3rd additional turn)
Birthing NicFit 0-2 (lost to Dragonlord Dromoka and Orzhov Pontiff, seriously? I almost get there in G2 but suddenly appeared a Kitchen Finks carrying a Jitte...)
S&S 2-0
Mirror 1-2 (I had one last card in hand, TNN, he had one last card in hand, Deluge)
It's probably time to bring Hymns out of the binder.
After the last league i'm very very happy with my Hymn.
No reason to play Stifle in this meta, too many Eldrazi and Death & Taxes.
I love my 2nd turn bomb who can make our match too easy simply discard a random Seer or Prelate or other terrible stuff.
This meta is not meritocratic, and some random cards in add to Cavern of Souls (lol) can destroy a very good plan simply thanks to a not many skilled top deck.
By the way, vs control and combo is a good card.
May I see your actual list?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrothgar
Here's my decklist to get some conversation going. This deck is selfish, to say the least. If i'm on the play, opening with creature + Land destruction (hymn for lands, waste, stifle) can usually
with the game. The issue with this deck was that on the draw it need 1 drop answers to my opponents 1 drop to stabilize before taking board control. Often on the draw, I found myself sitting with ponders in hand, where i'd much rather have a disfigure or another 1 mana spell that immediately establishes board control without costing me tempo first. So here's my deck; it's against the norm, but I think cutting ponders really makes sense here. Let me know what you think!
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Disfigure
4 Force of Will
3 spell pierce
3 stifle
2 thoughtzeize
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
There is a lot of tension in this list, not the least of which is 18 lands with only 4 cantrips, rather than 8, since you cut Ponder. Indeed, there is a tempo loss to playing Ponder, but even the "truest" tempo deck in Legacy (RUG) still runs it. Why? Mainly because you need the consistency. 18 lands is simply not enough, especially when 4 of them are nearly "spells" as Wastelands.Quote:
Originally Posted by jnosrati
There is also a tension between the Stifles and Hymns, compounded by the multiple Spell Pierce. In this way, you are going to be asking yourself, "am I a tap-out deck" or "draw-go, holding up Stifle/Pierce." Both are good, but you'll rarely know which is better at a given time, unless your opponent tips you.
The mana base doesn't really do you any favors either, with multiple Bayous. While you are certainly going to want to open on Sea, the issue arises when you get your second land, especially if it is your only remaining land in hand. If you plan to play Hymn, you pretty much have to get Bayou, or else you cut yourself off Green with a second Sea. In this case, consider that you might want to dig for a third land, via Brainstorm (for example), if you had gotten that Bayou and you miss, you are now off Stifle for a critical turn, or off Pierce. It gets even worse though, because if you missed the third land, now you are spending two turns not drawing lands at all. If you tap out to Deploy a 'Goyf on the next turn, again you are shields-down.
Considering Thoughseize in place of Hymn does little to help the situation, because the need for UU/BB/GB doesn't really change, you are just changing the amount of mana you need, not the colors. You pretty much have to start on Sea and so the option of Trop to be on Green does not allow any flexibility to keeping double Black available. Indeed, considering starting on Tropical does you few favors, since it makes Disfigure not an option and, again, making double Black an issue.
The ability to set up Delver, dig for lands and/or shuffle is pretty key on Ponder. Sure, when you need action, Ponder looks pretty bad. When you are trying to straight tempo them, Ponder looks bad. But the reality is more that Ponder is pretty necessary. 18 Lands, 4 Brainstorm just isn't enough lands, from what years of Delver-players have found. Could they be wrong? Sure, but chances are they aren't.
Indeed, your list is off-the-beat. You'll no doubt catch people when you Stifle them on turn 1, then Hymn them on turn 2. Or start on DRS and have Hymn plus Pierce or Stifle on Turn 2. I can't help but feel that there are a ton more awkward draws in between though, because you aren't always going to start on DRS, or Delver. Sometimes you won't be able to naturally draw land 3 on turn 3, sometimes you won't have a fetch to go with Braistorm, etc.
I think all that can be said is to try it out and see how it goes. Maybe I'm wrong on everything and the list is great. However I see some issues as it is.
I think you're bang on the money and agree with all of your points. It can't be stressed enough how important Ponder is to keep Delver decks together. And the Stifle / Hymn anti synergy is very real.Quote:
Originally Posted by H
It's often remarked how BUG Delver has the "worst mana-base" in Legacy (mostly for Hymn/Liliana builds) and frankly it is probably true. What we arrived at with the 20 Land, 4 Sea, 1 Trop, 2 Bayou base is simply the "best it can be." It is also predicated on essentially 4 Ponder. One could probably get away with 3 Ponder, but below that, you are entering into some rather risky territory. I hypothesized that mathematically 19.5 Lands is probably ideal if you are playing 4 Hymn/2 Liliana. That also surmised you were playing against a goldfish. In the real world, you can't run half a Land and your opponent can be playing Wasteland too (not to mention Port) so the "extra" is needed, possibly even wanted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissection
This doesn't mean result won't be good in the short term. Indeed, running less Land and happening to draw well mean you actually have an advantage. The trouble comes when the case of the run goods, runs out. That's where Ponder comes in. It's a variance reducer. Sure, it is not a zero opportunity-cost variance reducer, but there is no such thing. Like you said though, Ponder is important; very important.
Ponder is simply the best cantrip in addiction to Brainstorm.
Without fetchlands Ponder is one of the best card you can draw in many situation.
He reduce variance and give you a good planning for next 1/2 turns.
Simply there's no reason to don't play it in a tempo shell.
Make a few changes in the BUG tempo anti miracles deck
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Dismember
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Polluted Delta
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Wasteland
4 Force of Will
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Thoughtseize
1 Spell Pierce
1 True-Name Nemesis
SB: 2 Painful Truths
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Go for the Throat
SB: 2 Disfigure
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Winter Orb
SB: 1 Darkblast
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
Essentialy changed a Vendilion for a TNN, a Spell pierce for a Thoughtseize MD and a Pithing and the Dread of night from SB for darkblast and toxic deluge. What do you think? The idea is get a bit better vs non-blue creature decks
Quote:
Originally Posted by VERTUK
As previously I said, this list is too metagamized and, in my experience, do not work very well versus creature deck like Eldrazi. Your changes are right to face the non-blue creature decks but imho Tarmogoyf is the right beast for this meta because he is greater than the standard 4/4 or 5/5 Eldrazi, and is the right creature to face opponent Tarmo.
If I have to go in a tournament with Tempo BUG, i bring this list:
4 Tarmogoyf (or split with 3 Tarmo + 1 Gurmag Angler)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 True Name Nemesis (or split with 1x Vendilion Clique)
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Stifle
2 Dismember
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
8 Fetchlands
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
By the way, i would no bring Tempo BUG with Stifle today.
Imho in this meta, Hymn version is too strong.
Yeah you are right. My meta is lots of blue decks (tempo, miracles, ANT and SnT are the most popular), some lands and a few DnT (my nightmare xd) so i like the stifle build. For that i want to tune this version.
Well, Stifle version work better than Hymn into a meta with Storm decks.
Vs Miracle, Stifle and Vendilion can resolve Terminus.
By the way Miracle is not a BIG problem with your decklist: Mongoose, Stifle, Vendilion, Nemesis, Abrupt win the game. In G2 you need to be careful vs Monastery Mentor.
In Tempo mirror (RUG and Grixis, i suppose), Stifle could be a great weapon if played in the correct time.
I am pretty sure I posted about this 50ish pages ago but the only thing holding this deck back from being a good Stifle tempo deck in a Deathrite/DnT format is the lack of a T1 removal spell of Bolt's quality. You are better off gaining tempo with Spell Snare and additional Disfigure/Dismember than trying to play Stifle mainboard knowing you have 50% chance of going second. A T1 DRS throws a wrench in half of your gameplan and they don't even have to win the die roll for that...
Personally, I like the Mongoose build and I would like to see it played with more removal and counterspells over Stifle. I haven't played Team America in a while but now that Miracles and DnT are at an all times high I would play something like this:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Disfigure
2 Dismember
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Ponder
4 Wasteland
8 Fetch
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
Ahh if only Grim Flayer had Deathtouch instead of Trample...
Well, this is a beautiful dream: the defending player chose if sacrifice a creature (Tarmo, Eldrazi?) or give us the ability...Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
:laugh:
Good morning,
I've been messing around with BUG delver for a while and was looking for some input on optimizing the 20 land hymn version. My current list
9 Fetch
4 Seas
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Deathrite
4 Delver
4 Goyf
2 (Other creature, been using Gurmag, Leovold, Bob, or True Name)
2 Liliana of the Veil (Been debating going to 1 and adding dismember)
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
Any thoughts or suggestions on liliana/dismember split or creatures would be appreciated. I am trying to prepare the list for an open meta - I usually metagame hard locally.
In the open meta, 1/1 is probably better, since two Liliana is best versus Miracles and worse versus nearly everything else. You'll be a dog to Eldrazi regardless, but Dismember is better versus Grixis Delver. Frankly, if you aren't well prepared for Death & Taxes, Miracles and Grixis Delver, you are probably not going to be well positioned in the meta right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by RStien321
I prefer 19 land in my Hymn lists, but I'm in the minority on that one. My starting 60 was almost identical the last time I played BUG Delver, with 0 Liliana, 1 Dismember, 2 Pierce, and 2 TNNs in the flex creature slots. I'm a little greedy, but the deck basically has to be. I also think that Eldrazi is a pretty favorable matchup.
Well, 20 is based on having something like 4 three-drops. 19 is plausible, but it tends to hurt when you play RUG or Death & Taxes, in my experience. I don't think 19 is wrong, per se, but rather is a little risky.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
My Eldrazi experience was never real positive, but it may well have just been the version I played against. It wasn't a large number of games, so perhaps it was just straight variance, but I never felt I was ever really ahead unless my hand was just nuts.
Thanks for the feedback! I hate death and taxes with a passion. I typically pack two dread of night for that matchup along with two disfigures and two golgari charms.Quote:
Originally Posted by H
Miracles I usually bring in Clique, Library, Needle, Null Rod, Thoughtseize, and depending on game 1, I will bring in Dread of Night (just one) for mentor. I have used painful truths in the past as well. I have really thought about new liliana for this matchup, just running a protect the queen strategy and racing to ultimate. Emblem seems unbeatable. Strategy seems awful though.
I like my Grixis matchup with golgari charms to keep young pyromancer in check. I also like true name in the matchup, as it ignores an army of tokens, but is a huge nonbo with golgari charm. What are thoughts on Jitte as a sideboard card?
It's definitely risky, but I think the risk of flooding on 20 outweighs the risk of not having enough on 19. It's probably pretty small either way, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by H
Eldrazi has been one-sided every time I've been paired against it. Either we can counter one of their first 1-2 threats and then bury them with superior topdecks, or they curve out (especially through a Cavern) and we don't have answers.Quote:
My Eldrazi experience was never real positive, but it may well have just been the version I played against. It wasn't a large number of games, so perhaps it was just straight variance, but I never felt I was ever really ahead unless my hand was just nuts.
Liliana, the Last Hope is both better and worse. I mean, if you can tag X/1's with the +1, she is great. If you aren't, she is pretty underwhelming, I think. She might well be OK versus Miracles, since the Ultimate is absurd and even the -2 is alright to keep pressure if you have to, I guess, but again it's a spot where I am not sure if she is really that good versus anything else. The ultimate might well be worth it though. It's pretty hard to say, because I don't own any and I am too poor to be buying $40 Standard cards just to find out.
On Jitte, it runs to gamut from amazing to horrible, depending on match-ups and how the games progress. At the heart, the issue is that no matter the time, the card is essentially win-more for us. Now, that usually is an argument against it, but I don't mean it as that. What Jitte is going to do is turn a small advantage into a much bigger one. The few times it isn't win-more is when it is able to break a locked board, because in a Goyf stand-off, having a Jitte means you are going to win.
For the wide meta, I am not sure the card is really well suiting for this deck though, but if you expect lots of midrange decks, it is bonkers. Plenty of decks just lose if you connect with it, since it is very doubtful anyone will actually be expecting it. There is a further issue though and that is Null Rod. The problem is that most decks that you'll want Jitte against are also decks that run Stoneforge, or for other reasons you want Null Rod. It's pretty bad to lock-out your own Jitte though, so it's a bit of an issue. Unfortunately, I don't think there is a definitive answer, but if you run TNN, Jitte's stock probably rises proportionally.
Indeed, my usual MO is to board out a land if I am not going against Wastelands, but inevitably there are risks either way.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
Yeah, that is pretty much how I feel too. I guess my feeling there is that puts us at a disadvantage, but perhaps that isn't the right way to characterize it. I think it comes down to the fact that I never end up playing it in a real tempo way, which is why I find Daze so poor and emphasize more mid-range cards in my list. That's probably wrong more often than not, but it's how I usually end up doing things.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
Well guys it looks like we are back in the drivers seat.
Two weeks ago there was a 346 player tournament held in Yokohama. The Big Magic Open is a great event but unfortunately the coverage and top 8 deck lists are always in Japanese making it really hard see what is happening within Japan.
Anyhow there was a very interesting take on BUG delver that ended up in the top 4.
Since there isn't any English decklists I took the opportunity to translate it. The decklists for top 8 are located here.
Land
4 underground sea
4 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
2 Bayou
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Tropical Island
1 Creeping tarpit
Creature
4 Delver of secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
1 True-name Nemesis
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion clique
1 Gurmag Angler
Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Collective brutality
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Dismember
Sideboard
2 Baleful Strix
2 Dark Confidant
2 Golgari Charm
1 Counterspell
1 disfigure
1 Flusterstorm
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Surgical Extraction
I'll be playing in a 80+ player GPT tomorrow in preparation for GP Chiba so I am going to give this list a try and I will let everyone know how it felt.
^
I took the list above and made some edits due to my personal card availability for a GPT yesterday. I lost as 8th seed vs 1st seed against Eldrazi, getting run over game 1 and then punting game 2 when I had a win but made a single mistake on the last turn. Unsure if I would have won game 3, as the player is very good and the matchup is extremely volatile. Anyway, I didn't get my byes for GP Chiba, but I feel like the rounds I won were pretty comfortable and demonstrated the power level of BUG Delver, and I liked some of the spicy additions in this list.
Anyway, looking at the list above, I came with these changes:
-1 Gurmag Angler
-1 Vendilion Clique
-1 Collective Brutality
+1 Snapcaster Mage
+2 Disfigure
The maindeck Jitte overperformed for me and seemed fantastic, but I didn't trust the Collective Brutality so I cut it. I came with 2 Disfigures in the main which served me well against the other Delver deck I played against, and helped me beat Infect and Burn as well. My losses in the swiss were to Grixis Delver (1-2, both of us winning every game we were on the play) and a hopeless loss against a Punishing Loam deck where I felt completely crushed. I also had close calls against Show and Tell getting multiple Abrupt Decays stuck in hand, and dropping a game to Burn off 3 Exquisite Firecrafts in a row, stuck with a hand full of Daze and Pierce. All in all, I feel like the deck has a little more power in the midrange because of being the 'bigger' Delver deck, but other fair decks with a combo finish like a Marit Lage or something feel very hard. I also do not like my match-up against Eldrazi and knew there would be some, so I should have come with one of the Disfigures as a second Dismember.
I'm still going to play this deck at GP Chiba but I'm not sold on my final list yet.
Hi there . Im a portuguese player whos devoted to legacy and to Bug. Im going to post my list and wait for the comments .
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Dark Confidant
1 Leovold
4 Brainstorm
2 Disfigure
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
3 Hymn To Tourach
1 Liliana of the Veil
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wastelands
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
SIDEBOARD
1 Jace TMS
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Disfigure
2 Dismember
2 Golgari Charm
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Flusterstorm
1 Surgical Extration
1 Life from the Loam
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sylvan Library
And thats it. Hooping for feedback and discussion
I see an Invasive Surgery in the sideboard, what do you guys think about that card in BUG Delver?
When playing Grixis I liked the card as a 1-of, but since I'm testing BUG on mtgo a bit I realized how succeptible you are to Planeswalkers of any kind if you're not playing Lightning Bolt and Young Pyromancer/Pyroblast. I'm currently playing Spell Pierce instead since against combo I feel favored anyways and against Miracles I'd rather counter Jace or an enchantment when I have no decay in hand than a Terminus (which I almost never counter). Against BR Reanimator I've already lost twice to an Animate Dead with a Surgery in hand and against Storm sometimes I really want to counter a ritual. Or my S&T opponent decides to not cast his namesake card but a Blood Moon/Sneak Attack or even a Defense Grid.
The only matchup where it imo truly shines is Elves, but with Pyromancer hate, removal and discard are often times already stuff we bring in and it's not really popular due to having bad matchups against the top tier decks.
Any experiences and opinions?
I'll put my list in here end of this week. It's a bit of an unusual one and I want to try it at the MtGO community league tomorrow.
Other than against Lands I'm not sure where you want Surgery. Flusterstorm is just more flexible as an anti-combo sideboard measure, and Countersquall is a better anti-Miracles counter.
I am 100% behind MD Pierce in BUG Delver (in addition to Hymns). For reference:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Spell Pierce
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Dismember
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
Sideboard
3 Disfigure
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Flusterstorm
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Winter Orb
1 Countersquall
1 Sylvan Library
Edit: I think Shardless is the better-positioned BUG deck right now, but I still love Delver. I play it at least 2-3 rounds a week still.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agrippa91
In my opinion the invasive purpose is for lands and show and tell only. One mana to denial a loam is too good . Br reanimator is an issue because of chancellor. Ther's not many answers against turn 1 nuts with chancellor back up
While Spell Pierce indeed is the more flexible card, Invasive Surgery provides hard counter against almost everything relevant a Storm deck can throw at you. Other than that, it stops Terminus and Entreat against Miracles, Natural Order and GSZ from Elves, Show and Tell, Ancestral Visions and discard from Shardless and as mentioned above of course it's good against Life from the Loam, because you often actually get to extract them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Agrippa91
I am on the fence about Invasive Surgery, because against sorceries it's infinitely better than Spell Pierce, but against Blood Moon, Sneak Attack, Belcher, instants and planeswalkers it just looks so silly. I never leave the house with less than 2 Spell Pierces in my sideboard to help against those. I like my sideboard to have many blue cards, so preferably I end up with 3x Spell Pierce and 1+x Invasive Surgery in my 75. I dropped Flusterstorm at the moment, but it might come back in some numbers because it's really good to win counter wars.
Basically, you have to decide which cards you expect to see most, and choose the numbers of Spell Pierce, Invasive Surgery and Flusterstorm accordingly.
(PS. To make the argument easy to follow, I ignored Spell Snare. You could add it to the equasion above, but I personally see Spell Snare as a card I would only consider as a replacement for the discard spells, should I choose to drop those.)
Playing delver and Hymn in the same deck is always fun so have to come back to this deck once in a while. :)
Leovold got me thinking if you can build BUG Delver with him.
The logic behind it is that he is much better against Blue decks, combo & elves.
What I also like is that he pitches to Force and to Contagion.
Ever since Snuff out was unplayable I looked at contagion and thinking how it would help the max tempo plan and problematic matchups like DnT and Elves.
4 Force and 2 Contagion could make use of the clunk we cannot cast.
Clunkyness has always been a problem for the modern BUG Delver "Tap out style". Especially the lack of cheap removal which is where Disfigure and Dismember came in. Now 2 for 1 to kill a deathrite or a stoneforge is less than hot, but to me it is worth checking it out.
Speaking of Snuff out. Might be something for the Sideboard to help with Eldrazi?
Build is just throwing out an idea - not something I tested - SB is completely random
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Gurmag Angler
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
4 Force of Will
2 Contagion
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Dread of Night
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Snuff Out
SB: 1 Notion Thief
SB: 1 Null Rod
Hi guys!
I've been playing Grixis Delver for a while now, but the current metagame of lockpieces and hate towards "fair" decks really got me thinking of playing Abrupt Decay in my Delver deck. I've also played bUrg-tempo for a while, but really don't like the general clunkyness and awkwardness that comes with the 4c manabase.
Another big criteria for me was that I don't want to pay for Tarmogoyfs or Lilianas. I just don't think that their price now in Legacy is justified having experienced their weaknesses playing Grixis Delver: Liliana is a joke against Young Pyromancer and Tarmogoyf is really bad against Angler. Why would I play 50-100$ cards if they get outclassed by cards that are worth 1000 times less? Unless cards like Engineered Explosives and TNN that have similar prices on MtGO but have a unique effect I simply couldn't see me buying these expensive "tier 2" cards.
At first I tried out a shell similar to the Grixis-Delver shell with 4 Anglers and 4 Thoughtscours that Brenden2000 (?) developed a while ago and that I even saw a copy of in Chiba! When playing this list I began to realize though that the Anglers began to feel really clunky once you didn't draw your thought scours. Also Jace, the Mind Sculptor became a huge problem now that I was no longer playing Young Pyromancer and Lightning Bolt. With 4 Anglers playing against Miracles was a constant hoping of dodging Jace even though the match seemed favorable otherwise. I really wanted to play some Spell Pierces in the mainboard as well as in the sideboard.
I've always been a big fan of stifle, the problem BUG Delver generally has though is that it can be really slow and clunky with its many 2-drops paired with Dazes. I began cutting the Thoughtscours that in my experience also diluted the deck more than necessary and made a deck that I like to describe as "RUG 2.0": This shell combines the mana-denial plan of RUG Delver with the resilience of BUG Delver. Because I only can play 2 Anglers comfortably I play a Sylvan Library and a Leovold as my 11th and 12th Threat (meaning "cards that have to be removed otherwise they quickly win me the game").
I should mention here that I'm playing on MtGO because I lack a local Legacy community, in fact I think that irl Grixis Delver might be better positioned.
No more gabbling, here's the list I've tuned the last week and played at the "Community Legacy League", a weekly League on MtGO sponsored by TeamCardhoarder:
Creatures (11):
4 Delver of Secrest
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Gurmag Angler
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
Spells (30):
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Dismember
Others (1):
1 Sylvan Library
Lands (18):
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
Sideboard (15):
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Disfigure
1 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
2 Golgari Charm
2 Thoughtseize
2 Baleful Strix
Note that my main priority was to keep the curve very, very low to the ground. My main goal is efficiency since I really don't like how regular BUG Delver decks seem to do pretty well on the play, but just suck on the draw if you don't happen to have a DRS that survives the 1st turn.
For this reason all my sideboard cards are very efficient:
- Pithing Needle is just the best answer for some of our worst matchups: Lands, Miracles and Death & Taxes
- Surgical Extraction is a must-have for the current BR reanimator metagame, but also good against lands, storm and fringe graveyard decks
- Disfigure I chose over something like Darkblast because with relying on stifle I want to have as many answers to a t1 DRS as possible, even on the draw.
- Flusterstorm I only have as a 1-of. It only comes in against combo which already is a fantastic matchup.
- Spell Pierce is mainly there because of Jace and Blood Moon (Miracles). If I still played Grixis I would prefer something like Invasive Surgery or Flusterstorm, but with BUG I came to experience that preventing expensive hate-permanents (including Planeswalkers) is much more of a concern since you play a bit slower than the bolt-delver decks. They mainly come in against combo and Miracles.
- Golgari Charm does the same thing Rough/Tumble does in RUG Delver. Yes it doesn't hit DRS, Stoneforge Mystic and other 2-toughness creatures, on the plus side it's better against TNN and an active Mom. It's the absolute MVP vs. Stoneblade decks (regenerates from Supreme Verdict, kills all their creatures besides SFM, destroys RIP), Maverick (kills creatures including active Mom, Choke) and Storm (Carpet of Flowers, Empty the Warrens, Xantid Swarm, the last one is very good against my reactive style).
- Thoughtseize is mainly there against SFM decks and cards that give the opponent card advantage, e.g. Glimpse of Nature, REB, Blood Moon, Batterskull. Of course it's also really nice to have this additional angle of attack vs. combo compared to traditional RUG Delver.
- Baleful Strix is there against any fair decks, the main reason being Eldrazi. I was at first sceptical towards its use vs. Shardless BUG, but it's really important to keep the opponent's goyfs at bay as well as having an additional sacrifice victim for Liliana of the Veil.
A special note about Spell Snare: Though I was at first not including the card when playing the deck I began to realize that despite having 4 decays counterbalance and chalice still were great against my deck once I didn't have an immediate answer for it. I also realized my deck cared more about an opponent's Baleful Strix than my Grixis Delver list did since I can no longer "go wide" with YP. The fact that it also counters Stoneforge, Thalia and Jitte which already are must-answers while staying ahead on tempo is just huge.
Leovold over something like TNN is there for many reasons: First he doesn't die to Golgari Charm which I still might have to fire off when my opponent is on D&T or has an Pyromancer or elf army out. Second it helps against several unfavorable matchups and cards, mostly Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Lands. Third I have the feeling that you have to play just a tick "fairer" than a delver deck that plays bolts: You can't rely on bolts to finish off the opponent, you have to have a board presence just long enough to do that with creatures. TNN in my eyes is kind of a bolt-on-a-stick which goes well with bolt itself, but not with the BUG plan I'm driving. Just my opinion, I know many of your like their TNNs in their BUG decks.
Without further ado here's my tournament report for the Legacy Community League yesterday (16 players):
Round 1: Esper Stoneblade
G1: I win the die roll keeping an awesome hand with DRS, library, 2 lands, brainstorm and decay and another card. Unfortunately my opponent inquisitions my library which would've given me a significant advantage in these games. He fetches a dualland though which I waste the following turn. In this game I draw 3 Wastelands in total and swing in for lethal with a Gurmag Angler after he swordsed my Delver.
SB: I board in 2 disfigures, 2 thoughtseize and 2 Golgari Charm boarding out 2 Dismembers (they rarely play Angler/Tasigur), 2 Dazes and 2 FoW. In retropespective I should've boarded out 4 FoW since this matchup is rather slow and their hands are rather clunky, there's not really a card that I actually want to FoW.
G2: My opponent leads with t1 delta pass, I fistpump as I have 2 lands, stifle, ponder, drs and delver alongside a card I don't remember in hand. I lead with a fetch myself keeping up stifle, my opponent plays a basic Island and cracks on his turn. I stifle and he passes the turn. I play a DRS, he plasy a Strix and I waste his Underground, leaving him with only a fetchland and an island when thoughtseizing him. I see Jitte, Supreme Verdict and Notion Thief. I accidentally click and let him discard his Nothion Thief, the only card I was actually comfortable to let him keep. I had a Golgari Charm in hand, so I would've either tried to 2-for-1 his creatures (I had a flipped delver out that couldn't attack through his strix) or just regenerate my creatures through a Supreme Verdict. As it was I killed his strix with my charm, hoping he doesn't draw a land next turn. He does and verdicts my board, but has nothing as a follow-up besides a creatureless Jitte. I drop a Leovold and Daze the Jace he plays (not that he could've done much with it anyways) and swing. I thoughtseize his last card, it's a useless brainstorm.
2-0 victory, 1-0 in the tournament.
Round 2: Lands
G1: I'm on the draw and mulligan a nonland hand, I keep a decent one with DRS, 3 lands, stifle and FoW. I have to FoW his t1 Molten Vortex (my hand doesn't do anything otherwise) and lead with DRS. He's pretty slow and doesn't really do anything besides hitting his lands drops. He killed my DRS, but didn't waste me down to 1 land, he had Wasteland, Thespian's Stage and Grove out. This clearly signaled to me that he'll be going for the combo the next turn, so instead of playing Leovold I kept open stifle, ready to shuffle the FoW on top of my library away. He actually played his Depths, but didn't go for the combo immediately. He could've feared a Liliana, but with the wasteland out he even could beat a wasteland from my side if it wasn't for my stifle to prevent his wasteland. I shuffle my library, but unfortunately only topdeck another land. I don't show him stifle and concede (once I show him stifle it should be clear to him that I don't play Liliana).
SB: I board out 4 Dazes, 1 Spell Pierce and 2 Dismembers and board in 2 Needles, 2 Surgicals, 1 Flusterstorm and 2 Thoughtseizes.
G2: I keep a hand that has no DRS, but 2 needles. My opponent mulligans to 5. This protects me against the combo as well as against Tireless Tracker. Together with a stifle and 2 lands I'm confident not getting wasted out easily, a Spell Pierce slows early interaction from his side. I play a fetch and pass the turn. My opponent goes t1 Diamond (I choose not to pierce) into fetchland (I choose not to stifle since I'd rather save if for a wasteland, he already has all the colors he wants). He goes Chalice which I pierce and passes the turn. Interestingly he pitched a Depths to his Diamond, so I brainstorm next turn hoping to find a Surgical or a DRS. I find a Surgical, but still no creatures. Happy enough I surgical his Depths after his draw step, he crop-rotates in response which I can't counter (it's fine since crop-rot is a 2-for-1 and I have a wasteland in hand). He gets another Depths and reveals another one from his hand alongside another Chalice as his only other card. He passes and I decay his Chalice after which he concedes. Given that I knew I wouldn't draw a creature for at least another 2 turns though I think I should've kept my decay which was my only answer to his Chalice should he get to 2 mana before I can draw a FoW or another decay.
With my Surgical I saw he only boarded in 4 Tireless Trackers and 2 Chalices which I'm comfortable dealing with.
G3: I keep a hand that is not optimal: Wasteland, Delta, Deathrite, Decay, Stifle, Thoughtseize and Brainstorm. Given that I'm on the draw and also can keep open stifle, brainstorming eot to find a land I keep even though Thoughtseize and Angler aren't ideal. My opponent only fetches a basic forest on his first turn though and passes. Since I'm convinced he would've played something like an exploration on his first turn I play my DRS despite not drawing a second land since it doesn't seem possible for him to kill my DRS and my land on his next turn.
And indeed the only thing he plays on his second turn is a wasteland + chalice. Thrilled on having the answer directly in hand, but not having another land besides Wasteland I play that one (ready to have it wasted instead of my only colored source), stupid as I am though I activate DRS immediately and am now determined to decay his chalice on my mainphase instead of the end of his turn (allowing him to prioritize another chalice as well as playing something like Exploration or Gamble on his turn). I curse as my opponent now plays a Tireless Tracker. In retrospective it was propably still correct to decay the chalice since I had a brainstorm in hand that could find me a Pithing Needle or Decay for the Tracker.
Over the next 3 turns I deploy 2 more Shamans and a Gurmag Angler, fortunately I was able to exile his wasteland in response to his activation and stifle it. My Wasteland left me able to overcommit to the board despite the fact that the lack of lands in the gys would've lost me the game to Tabernacle normally. Thoughtseizing him reveals expedition, loam (no lands in gy, 3 active drs), p-fire and molten vortex (no red)). I take the Vortex since it would require another decay which I already sorely need for Tracker. He draws a Grove and P-Fires a Shaman which I Spell Snare.
I decide that hanging back with Angler against Tracker is a lost cause and swing bringing him to 13, he cracks a clue, Tracker is now 4/3. He makes another clue on his turna and attacks with it, I block with my 3 Shamans, he cracks a clue, I waste his stage to get a land in his gy, exile it and stifle the counter trigger on Tracker. My opponent tapped his mana wrong, only leaving him with colorless mana, otherwise he perhaps could've drawn a crop rotation or punishing fire to get him out of that situation. He scoops.
2-1 victory - 2-0 in the tournament.
Round 3: Infect
G1: I'm on the draw again, my opponent leads with a t1 Glistener Elf. I play a DRS, determined to block next turn to prevent a t2 kill, but my opponent plays a hierarch and I don't. Fortunately he doesn't play anything else and just swings for 2. I decay his elf, daze his vines and play out a Wasteland. He plays Inkmoth next turn and I smell a vines/crop rotation, so I play another Wasteland and waste his inkmoth with the first (so I could waste again in response to a vines). Unfortunately he just crop-rotates into a wasteland and tries to waste mine which I stifle. He's forced to play his other inkmoth at some point and loses, I win with Delver.
SB: Since I don't go after his hierarchs and tropicals I board out 4 stifles. Besides that 1 Leovold, 2 Spell Pierce, 2 FoW and 2 Dazes. In come 2 Pithing Needles (Inkmoth, Pendelhaven, Spellskite), 1 Flusterstorm, 2 Disfigure, 2 Golgari Charm, 2 Thoughtseize, 2 Baleful Strix.
G2: I have 1 dismember and a DRS, my opponent fortunately leads on hierarch which somehow always makes me happier than a t1 elf when otd. I'm able to kill 3 of his infect creatures, but my opponent goes up to 3 hierarchs and starts attacking me. I'm pretty low since I already played my 2 Dismembers. Since there're so many creatures though that have already died I have plenty of fodder for DRS so I effectively just lose 1 life each turn while having 5 lands in play and 3 in hand. It goes so far that I crack a delver to not draw a needle on top of my library, but fail to find any lands because they're all in play/in my hand. I always have the feeling my opponent has a blighted agent in hand but doesn't play it because he saw my spell snare. I draw a Strix, but have to trade it for a hierarch, always hoping to finally draw a Golgari Charm that never comes. As I draw an Abrupt Decay I wait until he plays a pumpspell on his hierarch to 2-for-1 him, I do this twice and finally manage to find a Delver. As he is at 7 and I have an active DRS + Delver I decide to hold delver back since I would win next turn anyways, playing around Crop rotation eot (I'm at 2 life and 8 infect). As it turns out that's exactly what he has, he scoops though so I don't know if he also had a pumpspell.
2-0 victory, 3-0 in the tournament
Round 4: Belcher
There were only 2 persons left in the top bracket, I saw from their past that they've been playing BR Reanimator and Elves. Elves, while being a better matchup than with traditional BUG Delver, is still not ideal, as it turns out I get paired against the supposed BR Reanimator player. Looking at the only list on his profile I saw that he pretty much played no discard preboard so I decided to mulligan aggressively:
G1: My opponent played first, so I shipped my 7 with delver, dismember, decay, misty, 2 stifles and bs. My opponent also went to 6
I looked at U-sea, misty, waste, drs, delver and bs. On the play I would've propably kept, otd that's just not possible imo. I shipped to 5, figuring that even if he was not on combo I'd not be that far behind (delver is generally favored when both players mulligan). I was forced to keep Leovold, 2 Wastelands, Delta and Delver. Yikes! That doesn't look good. But not being sure whether my 4 would even have lands in it I decide to keep.
On his first turn my opponent just passed the turn doing nothing. I scratched my head, drew a fetchland and played delver, hoping to fear my opponent who had no doubt kept a almost-there-combo-hand with a daze I didn't have. My opponent draws for his turn, probes me (there goes the bluff!) and reveals his hand with land grant. Somehow I feel much better: Not only was I right that my opponent played a t1 combo deck, Belcher in my opinion was also the weaker deck of these (also stifle wrecks both his strategies if I have it up). Unfortunately my opponent was only able to play a Charbelcher with a Taiga and a Mox Diamond. I flipped a Spell Pierce with my Delver, wasted his taiga, ready to force any ritual or LED that would come my way. After 4 more turns my opponent scoops.
SB: In come 2 Pithing Needles, 1 Flusterstorm, 2 Spell Pierce, 2 Golgari Charm, 2 Thoughtseize and 2 Disfigure (I want 2 disfigure and 2 dismember otd against a t1 xantid swarm that can wreck my strategy, otd I'm more flexible and can afford to keep in 4 decays), boarding out Leovold, Library, 2 Angler, 4 decays and 3 Wastelands.
G2: I keep a hand of ponder, spell pierce, daze, golgari charm, drs, stifle and u-sea. Sure it doesn't have FoW, but my opponent already went down to 6 cards so it's nearly impossible for him to go off via t1 charbelcher. On the other hand I have a stifle for charbelcher and golgari charm for his goblins/xantid swarm.
My opponent immediately begins storming off even though he went down to 5, generating 3 mana with 3 cards, playing LED and burning wish. The grin on my face (I expected goblins) vanishes as he reveals a Diminishing Returns and plays it, having both of us draw 7 cards. Fortunately this random 7 did what the other 4 hands I tried couldn't and produced a FoW alongside a bunch of blue cards and 2 delvers. My opponent probes and passes the turn. I just can't lose as I draw another FoW and finish my opponent off with 2 quick Delvers (seemed good with 35 spells to flip postboard).
So yeah, that was it. With 4-0 after being on the draw for 3 of the 4 matches and only losing a single game to an on-the-play lands player I feel more confident than ever (well, this last week that is) that this is the delver deck of my choice for the near future. There's no need for a whacky 4-color base imo, the mana advantage of lightning bolt just isn't worth the mana issues plus lightning bolt in general seems pretty weak in the online meta currently. Angler is better than Goyf, the new Leovold is insane, what more is there to say?
tl;dr you don't want to drop money on goyfs so you built a list with too many stifles and not enough threats. I own 4 Leovold and like him, but I would still play some number of tnn. Also, 11 threats is bad, 14 is closer to correct. You are going to spend too much time durdling around looking for threats instead of being able to strategically save your cantrips.
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I like your approach and in a fair world i would play a Canadian-Type deck. But simply you cant at the moment. You will never beat Eldrazi Game 1 because all your creatures does nothing against 4/4, 5/5 etc. Gurmags aren't fast enough. I dont like Goyfs as well because they are still the weakest creature but as long as Eldrazi exists you have to play them. Thats why Grixis is a thing because Pyromancer can block the Eldrazi Aggression as well.
The next thing is your Removalsuite. There is a reason why BUG-Delver isn't played at the moment. WIth 2-Mana-Removal Spells your MatchUp against D/T and Elves is so bad. Also the Delver MU isn't good because they have Bolt for your DRS and you doesn't. You cant keep up in the Tempo Race
@blablub:
Thx for your thoughts, I admit the Eldrazi matchup is not the reason you want to play this deck, it's really not worse than 40-60 imo though (spell snares and decays help a lot).It's one of the worst matchups you'll have with this deck besides Elves, but BUG Delver struggles against Elves anyways and I would even dare say that this deck is better against Elves than the average BUG-Hymn-deck.
Specifically against Elves the Spell Snares are nice (Visionary, GSZ for 1) while stifle prevents Craterhoof from immediately killing you. I take out the stifles, dazes and spell pierces postboard for a bunch of removal, imo Pithing Needle does also a pretty decent job against Symbiote, Ranger and the random Jitte/Nissa you see nowadays. Leovold on the other hand prevents the Glimpse of Nature plan as well as the Visionary-Symbiote combo.
Against D&T Spell Snare is just very good, having access to 4 1-mana removal spells postboard helps here as well as against Grixis Delver. I actually feel favored against the last one due to stifle, spell snare (strixes, pyromancers) and most importantly golgari charm which is just a beast in so many matchups, especially when you don't play 1-toughness creatures besides Strix yourself.
I don't really get the arguments of "but you're bad against Elves and D&T": Not only are these matchups what the normal BUG Delver struggles with, too (and might even more so), I also pointed out above that I play on MtGO, so D&T is not really a thing and Elves is also very rare due to the lack of D&T and the amount of Miracles. Sure Eldrazi isn't great (but honestly it's as much a coinflip as with Grixis Delver), but I won't not play a deck because of 1/10 of the metagame is a whacky matchup (that's like not playing Miracles because of it).
Btw, I won't go into an argument with someone stating "11 threats is bad, 14 closer to correct" with someone who has never tested the deck "because in tap-out-delver that's how many threats you play".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agrippa91
Im just sayin that i think you aren't play enough 1 Mana Removal-Spells. Maybe you can cut a Decay and play a disfigure main. Otherwise you are correct. D/T and Elves aren't the best MUs fpr BUG in general. Thats why i dont like BUG atm.
BUt i strongly disagree with the Delver MU. Your point that you are favored because of Snare and Stifle is only correct when they don't have Shaman. The Delver mirror nowadays is decided by having DRS or not. If you can't remove it on the draw durn 1 you will never combeback if your opponent is not stupid. And you have only 2 Dismember for that. So i would say Grixis is favored against you.
In conclusion i like your approach but i dont think its the right time for that. Im playin in RL only. There are a lot of D/T, Elves and Eldrazi right now because they are cheeper then other decks
I don't and never have played Tapout delver. When I play bug delver, it's the stifle version. Feel free to check this thread, my lists are here. Do as you please, I'm simply telling you this because the deck is not as resilient to removal as Grixis is, and so when only 1/6 of your deck is creatures, their first removal spell can actually lose you the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Agrippa91
I've never tested your build, true. I'd never play that pile because of the reasons I stated. I don't need to test a deck to understand a fundamental flaw. You will understand when you get more than 4 reps in...
For those of you know a little more in the know about this deck, I've seen some much old lists that run Sinkhole (mostly out of the board) that really appeal to me. Would it be possible to be competitive with a deck built stronger toward mana denial?
For example:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Baleful Strix
4 Stifle
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Sinkhole
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Dimir Charm
1 Life From The Loam
3 Thoughtseize
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
Or bayou..
Sb
2 Chill
1 Null Rod
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
Etc. Etc.
I gave little thought to the numbers. But, I feel like it's at least possible. Again, historically, something like this has been played. I have played against something like this and have been very much blown out by the Wasteland plus Sinkhole turn off of deathrite.
Hi guys,
I'm thinking of playing this deck for an upcoming tournament:
Creatures:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
1 True Name Nemesis
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Dismember
2 Thoughtseize
2 Liliana of the Veil
Lands (here comes the tech)
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacomb
2 Misty Rainforest
I'm thinking of maybe playing 1 disfigure and 1 dismember.
What do you guys think of the list?