[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

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Originally Posted by Brael

I've used Chalice in BUG builds where it's been solid as a Trinket Mage option, not for anti combo but just as a disruption piece, at 1 or 2 even on turn 3 or 4 it really disrupts a lot of decks, while missing most of what's in this one. I would never run 4 in a deck like this though, it just cuts way too much into your tutor package.

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I played BUG pod on Tuesday at my LGS with a Trinket Mage package, Chalice in the SB, I board it in for combo mostly, but it'll come in vs things like RUG Delver too. Saying that, I completely agree with you. This deck IS Vet + Therapy. Stripping yourself of those options isn't wise, and therapy is our best tool for fighting counterspells in the mid/late game to land our bombs.

Vexing Shusher does give you some wiggle room to be fair, I just don't like the idea.

a no go on the chalices seems like a wise decision, assuming I want to focus on more synergy and card advantage. However the original purpose of the chalices were more of an attempt to combat the harsh combo match up. Perhaps a little out of left field in terms of overall synergy. The deck does not have much support for it via cavern of souls ect. I feel that it was a broad answer to a narrow problem.

I will continue to brainstorm on more approaches to handle the unfair matchups.

Are any of you running some unconventional mainboard tech in a combo heavy meta?

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Originally Posted by aicnelavo

a no go on the chalices seems like a wise decision, assuming I want to focus on more synergy and card advantage. However the original purpose of the chalices were more of an attempt to combat the harsh combo match up. Perhaps a little out of left field in terms of overall synergy. The deck does not have much support for it via cavern of souls ect. I feel that it was a broad answer to a narrow problem.

I will continue to brainstorm on more approaches to handle the unfair matchups.

Are any of you running some unconventional mainboard tech in a combo heavy meta?

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Teeg gives you game against combo g1. Drs/scooz are md gy hate. Pridemage has won me a game against sns. Killed his omniscience in response to preordain.

Played in a weekly legacy tournament last night - we had about 20 people, which is on the low end but I still got some good practice in. I've previously played Rhino Fit with a small Stoneforge package but decided to give the list a try minus Stoneforge Mystic because it's such a bad interaction with Pernicious Deed, which this deck really needs to get ahead.

For those that don't want to read a full tournament report, my takeaway was this: Junk Nic Fit is better with Stoneforge Mystic than without it.

My list:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness
2 Siege Rhino
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
2 Grave Titan
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas

SB:
1 Council's Judgment
1 Darkblast
1 Engineered Plague
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Pithing Needle

Round 1 vs Loam Pox

This is one of the most grindy match-ups imaginable. It was a really fun exchange of games as both of us were using Top to dig for answers and ended up trading back and forth. Game one I punted away by not playing a fetch-land in my hand before activating Titania - one more Elemental token would have won me that game as it took him a few turns to piece together Abrupt Decay + Smallpox for my two creatures. I continue to be incredibly impressed by Titania; she's two 5/3 creatures for 5 60% of the time and three 5/3 creatures for 5 30% of the time (sometimes you have to just run her out without a land in your graveyard or against an active Scooze). Game two went to time as we both brought in more answers; I had a Karakas for Crop Rotation into Marit Lage shenanigans and took one turn too long to find Grave Titan who would have gone on to win me the game.
0-1

Round 2 vs BUG Delver

Game one I managed to therapy away double Force of Will on my first hit and a Maelstrom Pulse on my second, so my Siege Rhino was pretty tough to remove once it landed. I ended up finishing the game by sacrificing Rhino #1 to flash back a Therapy to clear the way for Green Sun's Zenith for the second Rhino (he had bounce and a blocker, so I couldn't have just attacked for the win). If he had been running a less traditional counter - Spell Pierce, for example - this could have gone poorly, but I got game one. Game two my opponent was able to Wasteland me and I couldn't find an explorer in time so I was quickly run over by a Delver, Goyf, and two Deathrite Shamans. I didn't have the mana to play Deed and activate it same turn so it bit an abrupt decay. Game three I resolved Grave Titan on turn four or five followed by Sigarda and there was no way my opponent could race.
1-1

Round 3 vs Shardless BUG

I drew poorly and played even more poorly this round. Game one I couldn't hit Veteran + Therapy and so my opponent had already resolved an Ancestral Visions before I got much of anything going. Jace followed, and I was buried in card advantage. I was about one turn too slow to play Grave Titan and straight-up win this game, which is more of a testament to Grave Titan than anything else as my opponent had already seen something like 6-10 more cards than I had. Game two was long, with lots of back-and-forth play. I missed an opportunity to stay alive vs. his Creeping Tar Pit but otherwise he drew extremely well off the top after I got him with two Hymns. Sometimes they draw Shardless, Decay, Pulse, Liliana! I felt like my deck wanted to grind out my opponent in this matchup, but that's always a shaky prospect against Jace + Liliana.
1-2

My Takeaways:

1. I'm not yet skilled enough as a legacy player to play Rhino Fit without Stoneforge Mystic. The Mystic package gives you something extremely threatening to do on turn two, puts your opponent on his back foot, and lets them spend their time reacting while you ramp or naturally get to 4+ mana where your deck is one of the best "fair" decks in the format. If you have an active Batterskull or Jitte, you probably don't need to be blowing Pernicious Deed anyway. Without equipment, the deck needs to simply grind to stay alive and presents you with many more decisions to make in the course of a game. Each decision is an opportunity to choose poorly and punt the game away.

2. There were several occasions where Dryad Arbor in the main could have eaten a Liliana activation or sacrifice effect for me or could have ramped me on turn one. I'm going to switch Arbor with Stronghold (Stronghold goes to the Sideboard).

3. Tasigur isn't terrible, but is probably worse than Meren of Clan Nel-Toth - I'm going to pick up a copy and try her out.

4. Eternal Witness underperformed (unsurprisingly against Deathrite Shaman and Crop Rotation for Bojuka Bog).

5. I need to learn how to sideboard better, specifically against Shardless BUG.

6. I have yet to bring in Council's Judgment - this may just be a variation of #5 - I need to improve my sideboarding.

Time to make some changes; I'm loving the deck. It's hugely customizable and it's incredibly easy to build Nic Fit to suit both your style of play and the metagame in your area. I'd love to hear what you guys think of my write-up and whether it was helpful / how I could write a more helpful summary in the future.

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Originally Posted by gth842s

Played in a weekly legacy tournament last night - we had about 20 people, which is on the low end but I still got some good practice in. I've previously played Rhino Fit with a small Stoneforge package but decided to give the list a try minus Stoneforge Mystic because it's such a bad interaction with Pernicious Deed, which this deck really needs to get ahead.

For those that don't want to read a full tournament report, my takeaway was this: Junk Nic Fit is better with Stoneforge Mystic than without it.

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Welcome,

Thank you for sharing a very well written report.

You may find out what you are looking for in this very thread.

Finding the perfect 75/76 for a Abzan Fit build is not an easy task.

I've tested a few iterations/ideas coming from this very thread and I have, long ago, concluded that if you want to play SFM, you have to get rid of Deed and play a more Maverick/Rockish Fit kind of deck.

Your mana curve will be smaller but you won't get to slam 6 CMC big bombs.

If you think that an equipped Sigarda/Rhino is usually enough to get the job done, you might be interested in having a look here.

Several comments on my previous list:

1) My latest tests indicate that 1 SFM is not enough.
->3 should be a good number.

2) 3 SFM should allow the following adjustment:
-1 TS
+1 Cabal Therapy

3) To allow 3 SFM, you have to make some room:
-1 Rhino
-1 STP / TS (depending of your meta; STP if your meta is combo heavy, otherwise TS)

4) I have been particularly impressed by Meren, lately, but in other Nic Fit builds.
One has to assess whether the following change is viable or not:
-1 E.W
+1 Meren

In your guys' opinions is it better to

1) Be able to answer a Sensei's Divining Top and Batterskull 99% of the time guaranteed as well as all other artifacts and enchantments

2) Be able to also answers creatures/planeswalkers/lands/True-Name/hexproof permanents but at the cost of being counterable?

I am playing the Junk version and Krosan Grip has been performing pretty well, I just wonder if Maelstrom Pulse, Council's Judgment, or Vindicate would be better as a 2 of in the sideboard. I am leaning towards Maelstrom for its versatility and ability to clear all tokens, which I think might be more powerful now than ever. I am not that worried about TNN (Judgment) because of Sigarda and Pernicious Deed, and I rarely want to destroy lands instead of Permanents (Vindicate), because Sigarda is just an insane endgame (and Grave Titan as my 6 drop). Lately there have been many times where I wanted to answer a planeswalker or a bunch of Young Pyro/Monk tokens (and even lingering souls), so I am leaning towards Maelstrom, but destroying a top, batterskull, or counterbalance is really nice with the Grip.

It's funny actually, of all the matchups to be doing poorly in I am having the most trouble with Esper Stoneblade. The last couple of times I have played against them it gets to this weird point where we are both hellbent and despite my 4 sensei's divining tops, they always seem to have a higher velocity with brainstorm/ponder into a 3-4 turn clock (lingering tokens/SFM->Equips/TNN/Jace). In an ironic way they actually have the power to out tempo us by playing hard counters instead of soft counters (explorer trigger nets them ability to more easily hold up counterspell while being proactive).

I was playing the Pod variant up until just recently when it hit me that you want to be playing Path instead of Baleful Strix because of the high concentration of Lightning Bolt decks on magic online. In theory Baleful seems amazing vs all delver decks but a lightning bolt or forked bolt can just put them too far ahead. Junk at least gives you 1 mana spells to buy yourself time (which is all you need in any lightning bolt matchup).

\end rant

Anyhow what do you guys think of Grip vs Pulse?

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Originally Posted by Ralf

4) I have been particularly impressed by Meren, lately, but in other Nic Fit builds.
One has to assess whether the following change is viable or not:
-1 E.W
+1 Meren

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I'd consider
E.W.
meren
2 stoneforges

Seeing as both ew and meren can reccur the stoneforges. Plus drawing equipment isnt too bad in abzanfit

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Originally Posted by aicnelavo

I'd consider
E.W.
meren
2 stoneforges

Seeing as both ew and meren can reccur the stoneforges. Plus drawing equipment isnt too bad in abzanfit

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Yeah. Whatever :cool: !

As long it does not stress your mana curve too much as it is not a typical Nic Fit.

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Originally Posted by ironclad8690

Anyhow what do you guys think of Grip vs Pulse?

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Since Omni has lost a lot of followers, I would stick with Maelstrom.
I guess you should play 1 pulse MD.

By the way, if token strategies is causing you some troubles, I would rather play a permanent hate in the sideboard:
- Engineered plague
- NoSB

BSK would still be a pain. But at least, you might be able to get rid of it through a perfect sequence involving a deed/pulse + a cabal therapy.

Care to share your list ?

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
4 Siege Rhino
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Grave Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Swords to Plowshares (I have debated on this before because path makes more sense with explorer, but in reality we're almost never the aggro deck, and if we are the aggro deck giving them lands really hurts, ie miracles/stoneblade)
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Recurring Nightmare

2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath

Sideboard:
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Choke (Debating if planeswalkers are actually just better, like Garruk Primal Hunter/Apex Predator/Relentless/Ajani Mentor/Elspeth, KE/Sun's Champion/Red splash for Xenagos/Ugin/Ob Nix have all been serious considerations)
2 Maelstrom Pulse


I am just a big fan of the numbers in this list. Primeval titan used to occupy 6 slot, but as has been said before when you draw a zenith Thragtusk and Sigarda are often just better targets anyways. I used to play 4 Sensei's top, but I found it challenging to shuffle extras away. I am really not a fan of Meren, because keeping her around for both advantages is too hard, and I really dislike equipment and sylvan library alongside pernicious deed. Haven't really felt like I needed painful truths either, in my testing it was clunky even against the control decks like blade where it should be good. Considering picking up Containment Priests now that they are only $12 on modo and cutting a surgical extraction and either a thoughtseize or an ethersworn.

Also playing without Sigarda or Thrun is just blasphemy. Sigarda is the #1 way we beat control decks, plain and simple. Yes, they can Council's Judgment. Yes, they can Toxic Deluge. I have always been a fan of the "make them have it" school of thought, and I attribute at least 75% of my wins against Miracles to Sigarda and 90% of my wins against Shardless to Sigarda. Thrun is really just nice to have if they somehow deal with Sigarda, for backup mostly.

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Originally Posted by ironclad8690

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
4 Siege Rhino
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Grave Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Swords to Plowshares (I have debated on this before because path makes more sense with explorer, but in reality we're almost never the aggro deck, and if we are the aggro deck giving them lands really hurts, ie miracles/stoneblade)
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Recurring Nightmare

2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath

Sideboard:
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Choke (Debating if planeswalkers are actually just better, like Garruk Primal Hunter/Apex Predator/Relentless/Ajani Mentor/Elspeth, KE/Sun's Champion/Red splash for Xenagos/Ugin/Ob Nix have all been serious considerations)
2 Maelstrom Pulse


I am just a big fan of the numbers in this list. Primeval titan used to occupy 6 slot, but as has been said before when you draw a zenith Thragtusk and Sigarda are often just better targets anyways. I used to play 4 Sensei's top, but I found it challenging to shuffle extras away. I am really not a fan of Meren, because keeping her around for both advantages is too hard, and I really dislike equipment and sylvan library alongside pernicious deed. Haven't really felt like I needed painful truths either, in my testing it was clunky even against the control decks like blade where it should be good. Considering picking up Containment Priests now that they are only $12 on modo and cutting a surgical extraction and either a thoughtseize or an ethersworn.

Also playing without Sigarda or Thrun is just blasphemy. Sigarda is the #1 way we beat control decks, plain and simple. Yes, they can Council's Judgment. Yes, they can Toxic Deluge. I have always been a fan of the "make them have it" school of thought, and I attribute at least 75% of my wins against Miracles to Sigarda and 90% of my wins against Shardless to Sigarda. Thrun is really just nice to have if they somehow deal with Sigarda, for backup mostly.

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Really like your list, but I think tusk is a "wasted" slot now that we have 4 rhinos.

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Originally Posted by rubblekill

Really like your list, but I think tusk is a "wasted" slot now that we have 4 rhinos.

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Yes, to each their own, I would definitely cut the 4th Rhino before the 1st Thragtusk though. Trust me, Thragtusk is amazing vs Miracles which is one of the most common decks, and the life gain is really important. Even just this week I won at least 1 match I shouldn't have exclusively because of the 5 life gain trigger. Even with the Rhinos I just really want the padding vs aggressive decks and the value vs control/midrange decks. I will even put forward an anecdote about a Storm match where, due to a fast Phyrexian Tower, I was able to outrace them with Thragtusk.

You're still a bit wrong on the school of thought behind Path. You really don't care about the lands, you ONLY care about Jace in that matchup. So, you should worry only if they have Jace, because all their other cards? They just don't matter, and realistically, life total still does. You're not the aggressor, true, but it changes the way they play their game. The drain life is a relevant thing. If you're negating it, why not just play another trampling creature? The life swings, especially against Blade, matter. It means they have to try and race you with Jitte, or realistically, Batterskull has to start to be strapped onto a creature to combat a Rhino. You know what sucks there? You have decay to blow out their guy after Equipping, or whatever. Really don't underestimate that life swing.

I like Walkers or more Sigarda better than Choke, at least right now. The cards you hate to see from each are in brackets. The blue decks you're fighting are Blade (Jace, Batterskull), Delver (Angler, Batterskull, Peezy at times), Shardless (Jace, Liliana, Visions), Miracles (Jace, Entreat, Council's Judgment, Top), and the other decks are Elves (Hoof), Storm (LED, Infernal, Tendrils, PIF), and maybe another deck like Loam (Knight, Chalice). Cards that are really doing work here include Grip, Needle, Thoughtseize, Teeg, etc. Teeg is the biggest non-bo, but he's still excellent.

-Matt

@ironclad- our lists are very similar once you look past some of my variety and the fact that im on a small stoneforge package vs having a top end. I've recently come to the conclusion that qasali pridmage is better in the deck them sage. Meren has no bearing on this as im still a firm believer in nightmare plus rhino. Despite not leaving a body behind for looping pridemage cracking at instant speed, pumping rhino to combat angler and playing around spell pierce a turn earlier have all come up for me. I'd advise giving him a whirl.

Side note updates to my list on 124:
-1 sage
-1 stronghold
-1 g charm
+1 qp mage
+1 marshflats
+1 pulse
The md creature flex slot went to courser.

Hey! Just built this as my first legacy deck because I already had most the cards. I'm running the punishing fire version though cause I didn't have the manabase for the junk version. I'm playing a small legacy tournament at my LGS and was wondering if anyone had tips against shardless bug? Anything I should def have in my sideboard. I have a feeling it might not be a great match up but please let me know. Thank you!

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Originally Posted by Ipitythefool

Hey! Just built this as my first legacy deck because I already had most the cards. I'm running the punishing fire version though cause I didn't have the manabase for the junk version. I'm playing a small legacy tournament at my LGS and was wondering if anyone had tips against shardless bug? Anything I should def have in my sideboard. I have a feeling it might not be a great match up but please let me know. Thank you!

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It's actually not bad, since Fires kills all their creatures and helps handle Liliana and walkers. I'd recommend 4 Fires at the moment, 4 Grove, and an Intent to tutor the combo.

Remember Scooze also can do a bunch of work against their Goyfs and Deathrites, so I'd say don't be afraid to run 2 if you have to. Truths will help you keep up with their card draw of Visions.

-Matt

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Originally Posted by sdematt

Remember Scooze also can do a bunch of work against their Goyfs and Deathrites......
-Matt

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There's Matt with the Scooze love again. Get a room!

Played in the daily last night
2-1. 4c pfire loam
1-2 tin fins sb dday
2-1 burg delver
2-0 burg delver

Went up to 4 decay bc how saturated the mtgo meta is, also carpets in the side.
I COULD NOT find someone selling a Meren so I played ajani mentor instead.

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Originally Posted by I_Hate_Counterspells

There's Matt with the Scooze love again. Get a room!

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It's actually a Ménage à trois with Matt, Scooze, and Truths. But in reality, he's correct conceptually. Scooze eats into goyf/DRS and truths (or some card draw thing) keeps pace.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ricardio

I COULD NOT find someone selling a Meren so I played ajani mentor instead.

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Goatbots have them and are pretty reliable.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Warden

It's actually a Ménage à trois with Matt, Scooze, and Truths. But in reality, he's correct conceptually. Scooze eats into goyf/DRS and truths (or some card draw thing) keeps pace.

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This is the most important part of this statement.

I've been running Truths in Jund (like, regular Jund). It's really good. If you think I'm retarded because cascading into Truths is garbage, I'm testing sans-BBE.

Also good in Esperblade/Deathblade. But that's just my two cents.

-Matt

Painful Truths... Seems the consensus is if you have it in your list then you run no more than 2 of them? I'm just getting my Junk Nic Fit deck back together again. Wanted to give it a try with Meren and/or Dromoka in the 60.

Another card that I haven't seen mentioned in this threat that may have potential is Dromoka's Command. Trying to think up some shenanigans for this card in Legacy but I don't know how far it would go. Seems to be a pretty solid card in Modern, though.

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Originally Posted by dave78pdx

Another card that I haven't seen mentioned in this threat that may have potential is Dromoka's Command. Trying to think up some shenanigans for this card in Legacy but I don't know how far it would go. Seems to be a pretty solid card in Modern, though.

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I tried this at my first event with Junk Fit - it's too situational and the blowout potential doesn't make up for how dead it can sometimes be. My recommendation would be to take a pass and run another Decay, Maelstrom Pulse, or even a Golgari Charm. Lightning bolt is so much more prevalent in Modern.

For those on the painfull truths plan. Which traditionally bad match ups are improved. Obviously no turn one or zero decks are effected (belcher tin fins dredge allspells) but how does the card improve say lands turbo eldrazi or show and tell. Historically all other matches have been positive to very winable for me ive been happy with my miracles shardless and storm matches and am honeslty only sad to face the eldrazi lands and show and tell cluster.

No traditionally bad matchups are improved, because those matchups are generally so bad, 1-2 slots in the main won't make a difference. It's just about executing the main game plan better.

Realistically, this deck will almost never beat combo Game 1 unless your opponent dies at the table. That's what the board is for, here. The thing is, you want to make SURE you win those Game 1's against those Delver/midrange decks in the format so Game 2 is easy-peasy. I went 6-0 in three rounds on that strategy, and had more time left over at the end of rounds, etc. It makes a difference. More card draw is also never a bad thing, since you want to go like so against the counter-heavy decks: threat - counter. Threat? Counter/remove. Threat? Counter/remove. Painful truths, you're out of cards, I'm not.

If you don't think you need it, then feel free to pass on it. But again, when the stars align, this deck is great. Without card draw and manipulation, you're in for a bit of a rough time.

-Matt

I guess it comes down to philosophy. Fundamentally decks playing multiple truths and librarys alongside zenith and top are more akin to say shardless where as lists playing a more traditional role are more akin to miracles looking to just have more powerful spells on top their deck. Or maybe im just delirious?

Edit- I could try a single truths over a funeral charm but after that I dont think i have much more space to work with. Mentor is the next most cuttable card but I havent gotten a fair enough amount of testing in with him. The small stoneforge package has over performed for me i cant see me playing rhino without it. Care to weigh in on where you'd squeeze the second truths in? List is updated on 124.

The only cuts you truly have are a Rhino, Courser, or Intent, but those are all good cards too. I think the Funeral Charm should go.

-Matt

I'll try it over the f charm. I have a sick ninja love affair with the card but its the weakest and drawing three fresh ones could certainly yeild whatever mode i intended.

I'm still torn on Thragtusk over Rhino #4. Sure, Thragtusk is better vs. Miracles/StP.dec, but for that mana you might as well just get Sigarda in those MU's. In the other MU's, Rhino poses a bigger clock in its first and second swings and breaks even at the third swing (assuming no blocks have been made, yada yada). When trying to get an opponent down to 0 it would be safe to assume he'd be at 19 life due to fetch, so the lower yield on the 4th swing doesn't necessarily have to matter.

So basically when it comes to killing the opponent, Rhino does it just as quickly @1 mana cheaper/1 turn earlier. I'm mostly wondering if I'd really need Thragtusk's utility.

Any opinions?

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Originally Posted by gth842s

Report..

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Thank you for the report. How was your experience with the 3/3 Hymn/Liliana configuration? Didn't you feel StP/PtE missing in the main?

@ Echelon, Thragtusk is an important addition in basicly any non white NicFit lists due to its lifegain, beefy body and EtB trigger. But all is negated by Siege Rhino in the sense that. Siege's body is more usefull and survives more situations. The lifegain is less, but you run like 3 copies. On top of that, white has more sources of lifegain by nature. If your concern is Miracles, then a combat walker like Elspeth may be worth its slot more then Thragtusk (or the 4th Rhino). Personally i don't think that this deck needs 4 copies of the card anyway.

Regarding removal: Maelstrom Pulse is probably the goto flex removal on the MD rightnow. There is a boatload of tokens out there from Mentor, Pryrodude and offc Storm running more copies of EtW. Next to this, Gurmag Angler, Ugin, Jace and Batterkull also get answered by the card. It offers an answer ro many situations out there. As a sideboard option i'd probably run a Council's Judgment (over Krosan Grip or Vindicate) since it can answer scary shit like Emrakul, Ugin (again), Blighsteel Colossus or even Marit Lage.
The real concern i have is finding a solid answer to Elves!. Both Engineered Plague and NotSB have been named, but it is so easily answered by their RecSage. Between Golgari Charm, PDeed and tight play with Gaddock Teeg and Jitte/spot removal i cant think of anything else.

Currently i am working on a Junk list, because it has a better game against MUD, combo (hatebears), lands (PtE) and against creatures that have toughness > 2 and cmc > 3. But like Ralf said: finding the perfect 76 is very hard.

Meren is the new tech, but i must just put her in the list just to get feeling with how she plays out in NicFit. Adjustement towards improving comes after real play.
Different options have been presented by various NicFit players and all have their merits. One thing is for sure for me: Sun Titan will be played as it pushes the NicFit list right on the edge of being awesome. Sun Titan solves the Elves problem aswell (just have to push games that far).

So the options are (in any combination):

SFM: Batterkull and Jitte. Like GTH mentioned, it forces players to respond more early on the game. Batterskull van take over entire games. Plus i like the idea of Jitte being able to perform recurring removal.

2 Baneslayer Angel. This is an alternative for the sfm package. It opens slots for other cards as opposed to sfm. I have never run Baneslayer before and just ordered some.

Not running Sensei's Divining Top, but instead going for exploiting Sun Titan/Rhino and running Sylvan Library, Painful Truth, Diabolic Intent, Recurring Nightmare. I dont think running sfm package is gonna work with this, so this opens the sideboard for Null Rod that helps against MUD.

Running more MD discard in the form of Thoughtseize/Hymn/Liliana? probably the only way to improve matchup/g1 against combo.

Slaughter Games, the reason for running Red splash. It will help against the current combo field and Miracles. But is it worth it? If we do, is a MD Huntmaster of the Fells optional? Or perhaps Kolaghan's Command. Thinking about these cards makes it hard not to just run Jund NicFit instead.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

Thank you for the report. How was your experience with the 3/3 Hymn/Liliana configuration? Didn't you feel StP/PtE missing in the main?

@ Echelon, Thragtusk is an important addition in basicly any non white NicFit lists due to its lifegain, beefy body and EtB trigger. But all is negated by Siege Rhino in the sense that. Siege's body is more usefull and survives more situations. The lifegain is less, but you run like 3 copies. On top of that, white has more sources of lifegain by nature. If your concern is Miracles, then a combat walker like Elspeth may be worth its slot more then Thragtusk (or the 4th Rhino). Personally i don't think that this deck needs 4 copies of the card anyway.

Regarding removal: Maelstrom Pulse is probably the goto flex removal on the MD rightnow. There is a boatload of tokens out there from Mentor, Pryrodude and offc Storm running more copies of EtW. Next to this, Gurmag Angler, Ugin, Jace and Batterkull also get answered by the card. It offers an answer ro many situations out there. As a sideboard option i'd probably run a Council's Judgment (over Krosan Grip or Vindicate) since it can answer scary shit like Emrakul, Ugin (again), Blighsteel Colossus or even Marit Lage.
The real concern i have is finding a solid answer to Elves!. Both Engineered Plague and NotSB have been named, but it is so easily answered by their RecSage. Between Golgari Charm, PDeed and tight play with Gaddock Teeg and Jitte/spot removal i cant think of anything else.

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I figured something like that. So Thragtusk is out. Now it's just a matter of what to put in. My list is light on removal (courtesy of being used to having pretty much every legacy bomb out there available to me to solve all my problems), so the Pulse is probably a good idea. I'm not big on walkers with double colours in their manacosts (so that's most of them), partly b/c I like to fetch basics whenever possible. That kinda makes it hard to consistently pay for GG and WW in the earlier stages of a game. With GG being the more important bit, I try to alleviate other colour costs. Sigarda usually hits the board late or via GSZ, so at that point the WW in her manacost isn't that much of an issue anymore.

So it's either Rhino nr. 4 (I like fighting fire with fire. Or rhinoes.) or a Maelstrom Pulse. Most creatures aren't that much of a hassle due to PtE (nice Merit Lage token/Blightsteel Colossus you got there) and for tokens I run 3 Deeds (with 2 Golgari Charm in the SB), but other stuff may very well pose quite the problem (hello, Ugin/Jace).

Or maybe run a third Painful Truths. When playing goodstuff.dec (basically), how bad can drawing 3 cards be..?

Played Junk NicFit in a local 20+ tournament to a 4-0-2 finish (2nd place).

Matchups were:
1) RUG Delver; win 2-0; 1-0
2) Necrotic Ooze combo; win 2-1; 2-0
Never saw this deck before and it got me by surprise G1.. G2 I surgicaled entomb after a T1 discard (to prevent instant speed shananigans), G3 I killed a Ooze in play and then cast S.Games on Ooze
3) Burn; win 2-1; 3-0
G1 he got me with a T3 Sulfuric Vortex..
4) Mentor UWr Miracles; draw 1-1; 3-0-1
G1 I resolved Sigarda and killed his Jace, he killed me on the backswing with an EOT Entreat. G2 I cast S.Games on Jace and then on Entreat and traded resources until a resolved Mastery of the Unseen prompted a concession. Time was called before G3 started.
5) Deathblade; draw 1-1; 3-0-2
G1 I kept a one lander with double Therapy, GSZ, DRS and Top (on the draw). I didn't draw a land in the 1st and second draw step, which put me behind enough for him to resolve Jace, Lili and TNN. I should have scooped, but instead persisted until I finally succumbed with 18min left in the round. G2 was much smoother and I was right before time was called..
6) RUG Delver; win 2-1; 4-0-2
G1 was a nail biter.. He had Delver (unflipped for 2 turns) and Goose, then resolved a Goyf. I had a Top in play and played P.Deed (Forced), I chumped Goyf with Sakura-Tribe Elder and he deployed another Goyf. Cast M.Pulse on Goyf (Forced).. I was on 13 life. Fetched for Dryad arbor to chump and clear top and spun top.. found T.Deluge, draw, Deluge for 6.. resolved.
He played another Goyf, but luckily I drew A.Decay.
G2 Was again very close, but this time I died with him on 1 life (mostly self inflicted with Sylvan Library)
G3 Was not even close since my draw was quite good.

Decklist:

Code:

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--- creatures [14] ---
3 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
3 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

--- instants [5] ---
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Path to Exile

--- sorceries [12] ---
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Painful Truths
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse

--- artifacts [3] ---
3 Sensei's Divining Top

--- enchantments [4] ---
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Sylvan Library

--- lands [22] ---
4 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor

--- sideboard ---
4 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Slaughter Games
2 Mastery of the Unseen
2 Krosan Grip
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Choke

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Kinda liked everything in the MD and sideboard and wouldn't change anything really.. I might try a Mastery of the Unseen in the MD (with Thragtusk being moved in the SB).

I'm putting us on the map.

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype...it-22623#paper

Haha nice work ricardio. Anything you would change about your list?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ricardio

I'm putting us on the map.

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype...it-22623#paper

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Still trying to get a feel for the Junk versions of this deck but it feels to me like you're playing a lot of lands that can't activate Shusher. Realistically Shusher needs quadruple green in a turn: 2 to cast, 1 to activate, then 1 for your threat. But a full third of your lands can't count towards that green count and you're probably tutoring up a lot of non green lands off of Explorer. Has this been a problem?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brael

Still trying to get a feel for the Junk versions of this deck but it feels to me like you're playing a lot of lands that can't activate Shusher. Realistically Shusher needs quadruple green in a turn: 2 to cast, 1 to activate, then 1 for your threat. But a full third of your lands can't count towards that green count and you're probably tutoring up a lot of non green lands off of Explorer. Has this been a problem?

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Initially I did not believe he was worth the spot or the 2 tix and I felt as you stated, he is very green intensive but I found him to be great when I had him. He won me 2 separate games, singlehandedly. I fetch out green more of the time and I wasn't put in any awkward situations because of him. Because of the online meta, he is a must answer threat which is what we want to fill out deck with. The threats I have an issue landing, that I want him for, are not the usual vet, Drs or top. It's gsz or rhino because my opponents usually let the others resolve in hopes their force will 2 for 1 a rhino.

Note: my deck is fairly meta'd for the online meta. You play 3-4 blue decks a daily. At some point, I may run carpet mainboard. Haha

@Ricardio, what's playing legacy on modo like? How often do events fire? Is it regular? I'm in the UK and worry that events won't fire when I'm interested. What's the EV like playing in events? Is it worth just playing legacy on there or do you do other formats too? I really wanna join you on the daily listings :)

I don't get the opportunity to play in tournaments at the moment and I'm not investing into magic online (yet), but I'm happy enough with all my current testing to present this list, as I'm pretty hyped on it right now. It just grinds and I haven't been losing with it, so I want to share for some opinion and interaction from you lot.

I've included scomments and questions on some cards.

Absun Zenith (Cute right?)

4 Greensun Zenith
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen finks
Wanted more life gain and another creature that worked well with being sacrificed. I wish such a two drop existed.
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
This gal is the real deal and gives you planeswalker-esque value while being Greensun zenithable. Love her.
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
I love rhino, but without equipment Thrun just blocks better and survives more. And we really don't need 4 rhinos to win the game when we can just play more interaction and card draw and then beat down with Sigarda.
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
The queen herself, wins all the games.
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
Makes sure we can always go over the top of the other fair decks. Fetches the two towers or the two stirring wildwoods for extra threats.

2 Sensei's Divining Top
Is 2 too few?
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Diabolic Intent
3 Abrupt Decay
Cheap interaction and answer to counter balance. 3 too many?
2 Vindicate
Answer to planeswalkers and lands. 2 too many?
3 Permicious Deed
2 Abzan Charm
Answers delvers and 20/20s a like, draws cards against everything else.
3 Painful Truths
Fantastic spell especially turn two after saccing a vet, replaces sylvan library in my eyes, less life and doesn't die to deed. It's so refreshing always having a grip of cards in this deck.

22 lands + Dryad
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Stirring Wildwood
Extra white mana and threats, blocks delvers and doesn't die to bolt.
2 Phyexian Tower
Play 8 veteran explorers and 8 sac outlets, this card is so good I don't mind the chance of drawing both of them.
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Sideboard
2 Surgical Extraction
Combo and Lands hate
2 Pithing Needle
Combo, Lands and Miracles hate
2 Thoughtsieze
3 Hymn to Tourach
Additional hand disruption for combo
2 Ethersworn Canonist
Slow the game down against combo
1 Gaddock Teeg
Combo and Miracles hate
2 Golgari Charm
Creature hate
1 Reclamation Sage
Alluren hate :)

The deck is designed to grind and crush all the other fair decks, and then side in enough hate to up the odds against the various combo decks. It has all the necessary removal and then so much card advantage that you can keep up with ancestral visions and jaces while presenting enough threats against miracles and interfering enough against storm.

Thoughts? Anyone else on anything similar? I do miss rhino for the troll factor...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

Thank you for the report. How was your experience with the 3/3 Hymn/Liliana configuration? Didn't you feel StP/PtE missing in the main?

SFM: Batterkull and Jitte. Like GTH mentioned, it forces players to respond more early on the game. Batterskull van take over entire games. Plus i like the idea of Jitte being able to perform recurring removal.

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I've quite liked the Hymns and Lilianas. In general, they represent card advantage - it's certainly a matter of personal style, but I've seen a lot of lists that sacrifice card advantage for card quality. I try to have a little of both in my lists. The disruption is essential to having some game G1 against Combo or Miracles. Hymn is a great followup to turn one Therapy on the draw if you don't have an Explorer and it's back-breaking on turn two after you sac an Explorer to Therapy. Once you add in the Stoneforge package, you're looking at a threat (Liliana) that both makes your equipment better and can threaten to essentially win the game on her own in certain situations.

Two quick notes for those evaluating the stoneforge mystic route: I haven't figured out which Sword I like best; Light and Shadow is amazing vs. Miracles but lackluster elsewhere; I'm going to try Fire and Ice next chance I get (probably next Monday). I'd also consider War and Peace to close the game quickly vs. Miracles and Lands. Also, I tend to search out Jitte before Batterskull unless I feel I'm the aggro in the matchup. An active Jitte on a Rhino is pretty unstoppable vs. fair decks.

OK, last thing. You always have the option to side out the entire equipment package game two. I do that pretty often; you bring in Thrun, Sigarda, your Titan of Choice, and maybe a planeswalker or some more removal while they bring in Decays.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jain_Mor

22 lands + Dryad

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Hmm, I'm at 21 lands + Dryad. But I'm a greedy bastard. Has worked out fine for me so far though. My manabase is:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Phyrexian Tower
And 1 Dryad Arbor as land 22/Llanowar Elves/Diabolic Intent food/chump blocker. That little guy leads a busy life.

This setup gives you 15/14/14 initial green/black/white manasources. Which is where you want to be when it comes to consistency (14 really is a minimum for any colour if you reliably want access to it on your first turn).

I've been toying with the idea of replacing a Forest with another land. Either Volrath's Stronghold or a High Market. Makes spot removal a little bit more unappealing for your opponent and plays well with Meren (and, to some extent, Painful Truths). Even though we play goodstuff.dec, it's always nice to build in some synergy. And when using life as a resource it's never bad to be able to actually make it. In the past I've used Miren, the Moaning Well but that one's just too mana hungry. Four untapped lands is a bit too much for my taste.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jain_Mor

Wanted more life gain and another creature that worked well with being sacrificed. I wish such a two drop existed.

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Overall, good list.

You could also consider Strangleroot Geist as 2 CMC drop which is asking to die...